Was Elayne the same in ToM?

[Finnssss22]

Why did she owe the Two Rivers an apology? For their rebellion? So what if it occurred while Rahvin was in power? He didn't have anything to do with it.

 

An apology for Andor not being any help what so ever when the Children and 1000's of Trollocs invaded the Two Rivers. Perrin says as much to her, that not only did Andor not know but also had nothing in place that could of helped in time anyway.

Where was the thanks to Perrin for there even still being a Two Rivers to argue over at all.

 

It was definitely not planned before the meeting. I don't know how you got that impression. You are right about Perrin being key in saving the Two Rivers.

 

Bullshit! The last thing said when Morgase and Elayne reunited was about Perrin and the Two Rivers and how Morgase had some idea's on that situation. Giving the Two Rivers to the Dragon Reborn and the Stewart title was thought of right there, not all of a sudden while actually talking to Perrin.

To think differently is pure naivete!

 

 

How so exactly? The deals she made with the Kin and Mat and the Band provide healthcare and security to her nation(s). She has definitely matured.

 

The end of the world is coming and while Mat and Perrin are aiming at preventing that, here's Elayne trying to use them and that much more important goal of theirs to strengthen Andor against other nations.

 

I don't buy that reasoning at all. And to be honest, there are only a few people who are "more important" than the Queen of Andor and Cairhien and the Amyrlin Seat.

 

I'm sorry, I must of missed the part where it no longer matters whether Perrin, Mat and Rand have to make it to the Last Battle for the Shadow to be defeated.

I must of missed the Prophecies with the Queen of Andor and the Amyrlin Seat in them.

 

Once again, how so? They are two of the few people who relate to him as Rand, not the Dragon Reborn.

 

See above.

 

I would disagree. Both knew that they had to address the problems in Andor and the White Tower before moving on towards Tarmon Gai'din.

 

Ok, fair enough. They did need to clean up their own back yards first but what have either done since they did that.....nothing. If Rand hadn't of shown up at the WT, they would still be doing nothing and now with Andor getting invaded hardcore by Shadowspawn, it might finally get Elayne off her ass and focused on what really matters.

 

He rebelled against the Dragon Reborn and tried to kill Mat! You should dislike him the most by your above reasoning.

 

Heh, c'mon, Mat was invading the Stone and caught Darlin in his small clothes. As far as his rebelling...it showed that he cared more for Tear than for his title and he wasn't going to kiss ass to hold on to it. A loyal and honorable man that when talked to understood the "Big Picture" right away.

 

What he said was that he was loyal to Rand for what he did for Tear and agreed that he grows more erratic every day although what do you expect from the Dragon Reborn. He didn't say that he would follow Rand if he decided to break the seals. Specifically, all he said concerning the seals was "Still, your words bring me concern. The destruction of the seals is not something we should undertake without careful discussion."

 

That doesn't scream to you that he's saying if breaking the seals is what needs to be done then so be it but I will find out why first?

 

He actually basically said, "I am loyal to Rand and I will stick to that no matter how crazy he gets, but maybe we should wait on the whole breaking the seals part." Also as Egwene notes, by him writing a letter, instead of sending a messenger, he was saying that "I do not care if the Lord Dragon discovers what I have written. I stand by it."

 

Again...he's saying that when it comes down to it, am I going to give more weight to the third Amyrlin Seat in the last two years or the man reborn to save us.

By committing his words to paper, he's showing that he isn't trying to hide anything from Rand and will say the same to him in person.

[yoniy0]

Okay, that's enough. You each have your own opinion on Elayne's character, and that's to be expected. However, this thread is dedicated to discussing the changes to her character in ToM, not evaluating her maturity. Since I don't want to lock my own poll, please leave it at that.

[Mr Hindley]

Funnily enough, I've never really understood all the Elayne hate. She was good fun in the books 4-6, especially; and I think BS got a good grip on her slightly childish but friendly mannerisms in ToM. But overall, this was the first book where I found myself thinking 'Wow - what a bitch!'

 

Meets her supposedly-dead mother? Her very first thought is 'oh no, my throne is in jeopardy'. Also a bit unimpressed with the way she starts grabbing for Mat's dragons / the Black Tower / Cairhien. Fair enough, planning for a post-Rand world is reasonable, but there's something a bit grasping about it all.

 

I agree, she was good with Gawyn, but still... Hmmm.

[htarcan]

I think it's quite an achievement that BS can write someone else's character and we, the readers, still have a sense of familiarity with them. It's a good example of BS's writing skill. :)

 

I really enjoyed the boat scene. I've got three older sisters and reading that part of ToM felt like an authentic interaction between brother and sister like I've not read in any other book. It's not something I'd expected to pick up in the book: a lovely description of intimacy between siblings. As a result I grew to like Elayne more because I can relate to her a lot more now.

 

I totally agree except Elayne. (and I'm very curious about what moiraine will be like since we had only a bit in ToM)

I'm not among the ones who got bored reading Elayne's plotline. She'd been silly from time to time but was understandable.

In ToM, her thoughts seemed too unexpected and odd to belong her.

 

Above all, she is one of the few people who really could see what's happening around and took action to put things right.

She knows Perrin's importance in the last battle and how important he is for Rand, but still she just acts like he was nothing

more than a rebel.

[Eowyn]

At least she wasn't taking a bath for the whole bloody book....

[Finnssss22]

At least she wasn't taking a bath for the whole bloody book....

 

 

No, just being carried around in a bed for half of it

 

Also it should be noted that BS said pretty much all of Mat's PoV's were written by RJ not himself.

So it's quite likely "Talk of Dragons" was RJ's Elayne not BS's.

[Feral]

I thought she was slightly different, but not what I'd call "off". For starters her way of dealing with Perrin - "Why shouldn't I just have you beheaded?". What happened to the Elayne who always told Nynaeve that smiles and honey sometimes worked better than the stick or whatever nonsense she used to spout? What happened to the Elayne who was subtle enough to realise that such a blatantly empty threat was just simply pointless if not down right laughable? And all this "the Crown" business. I don't remember Morgase ever refering to herself as the "the Crown", and if she did she mustn't have over-used it like Elayne or I would remember.

[rygar]

I dislike her character, but there was something different about her

 

and

 

The changes to her character felt like a positive natural evolution

[Treemaster]

I liked Elayne up until around the Crossroads of Twilight. Then, I just found her character boring. But, in Towers of Midnight, for the first time she became almost despicable. Everything she does in this book is to try to increase Andor's physical power. no matter the cost to others. How is that different from any other dictator going for physical power at all costs. Everything from the kin, to Perrin, to deciding that the eve of the last battle is the right time to assert a claim to Cairhien, indicate this obsession. At times I felt she was actively working for the wrong side. But even if she had good intentions, in my mind there's no question but that her work furthered the Dark One's ends.

 

So, there was no right answer to the poll for me, which is that I used to like Elayne, but found her becoming more dislikable in Towers of Midnight.

 

I don't know if Brandon had anything to do with this. I actually expect most of her scenes were written by Robert Jordan.

[capuga]

I liked Elayne up until around the Crossroads of Twilight. Then, I just found her character boring. But, in Towers of Midnight, for the first time she became almost despicable. Everything she does in this book is to try to increase Andor's physical power. no matter the cost to others. How is that different from any other dictator going for physical power at all costs. Everything from the kin, to Perrin, to deciding that the eve of the last battle is the right time to assert a claim to Cairhien, indicate this obsession. At times I felt she was actively working for the wrong side. But even if she had good intentions, in my mind there's no question but that her work furthered the Dark One's ends.

So, there was no right answer to the poll for me, which is that I used to like Elayne, but found her becoming more dislikable in Towers of Midnight.

 

I don't know if Brandon had anything to do with this. I actually expect most of her scenes were written by Robert Jordan.

 

In what ways has she furthered the Dark One's ends? I can understand the distate in her quest for power. But I'm not sure how any of her actions were advantageous to the Shadow.

[Treemaster]

 

In what ways has she furthered the Dark One's ends? I can understand the distate in her quest for power. But I'm not sure how any of her actions were advantageous to the Shadow.

 

Furthering discord among the good guys, rather than working together with Randland to fight the Dark One. Admittedly, I can't point to anything more specific than that.

[yoniy0]

So, there was no right answer to the poll for me, which is that I used to like Elayne, but found her becoming more dislikable in Towers of Midnight.

Please go with 'I like her, and she was different'. All I meant by it is that you used to like her before.

[Nooska]

 

In what ways has she furthered the Dark One's ends? I can understand the distate in her quest for power. But I'm not sure how any of her actions were advantageous to the Shadow.

 

Furthering discord among the good guys, rather than working together with Randland to fight the Dark One. Admittedly, I can't point to anything more specific than that.

What discord?

 

She stabilized the Kin's future, she took the throne of Cairhien which has been sitting vacant waiting for her to do so, she negotiated a solution to the rebellion of western Andor, securing Perrin from future accusations as well as giving western Andor their selected leader and she negotiated an agreement with the Band of the Red Hand giving them a home base as well as getting the cannons made.

None of that furthers the side of the Dark One, and all of it furthers the cause of the Light.

 

None of that has been dsiputed previously - avid discussion about whether its is to the taste of individual debators world views (mostly the democratic notion) as well as whether her handling of said cases were politically savvy, but so far you are the first one I see saying that any of this has casued discord on the Light side or furthered teh DO's aims. Some of it had the potential, but a potential outcome being bad doesn't mean it was furthering the DO's goals - or Rand would probably be the bigges DF around.

[capuga]

 

In what ways has she furthered the Dark One's ends? I can understand the distate in her quest for power. But I'm not sure how any of her actions were advantageous to the Shadow.

 

Furthering discord among the good guys, rather than working together with Randland to fight the Dark One. Admittedly, I can't point to anything more specific than that.

 

I'm just not sure that she does anything that causes any divisions amongst the Light-sided forces. She acquires the services of the Band and the Dragons. But its not exclusive and she isn't preventing them from fighting at the Last Battle. She makes the Two Rivers an official, autonomous part of Andor. Again, doesn't really impose any sever duties on Perrin and doesn't prevent him from marshalling his forces for the Last Battle. She takes over the throne of Cairhien. This causes some squabbling amongst a few of the nobles but nothing more than their usual in-fighting. And having a definitive ruler should actually provide some stability for Cairhien. And the only order that we see her give in her role as Queen of Cairhien is to marshall for Tarmon Gaiden.

 

Personally, I think she's doing what a good ruler should - stregthening her country. But I can certainly see how it could be viewed as her being on a power trip and making her dislikable. I just don't see how it benefits the Shadow.

[htarcan]

I liked Elayne up until around the Crossroads of Twilight. Then, I just found her character boring. But, in Towers of Midnight, for the first time she became almost despicable. Everything she does in this book is to try to increase Andor's physical power. no matter the cost to others. How is that different from any other dictator going for physical power at all costs. Everything from the kin, to Perrin, to deciding that the eve of the last battle is the right time to assert a claim to Cairhien, indicate this obsession. At times I felt she was actively working for the wrong side. But even if she had good intentions, in my mind there's no question but that her work furthered the Dark One's ends.

 

So, there was no right answer to the poll for me, which is that I used to like Elayne, but found her becoming more dislikable in Towers of Midnight.

 

I don't know if Brandon had anything to do with this. I actually expect most of her scenes were written by Robert Jordan.

 

I agree with each word of it, except the dark ones ends part. it's a little much since I don't think elayne's actions will serve the dark one in any ways. however I'm very worried about andor after the LB. elayne may do thinks right but she's way too confident in taking dangerous big actions. one day it will stop ending good.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I voted dont like her, but was different.

 

I however, am indifferent to her, but this was the closest option.

 

In any case, I felt she was better in this book. My main problem with her had been her foolishness and disregard for human life in KoD (where she got thousands of people killed because she was so damn arrogant)

 

But she learned her lesson, so forgive and forget I say.

 

Yeah, she was kinda a little miss with the whole perrin and Morgase situation, but she was just being a ruler. In comparison, Egwene has been much harsher. (no, i dont want an Egwene hating session) So I dont really dislike her for that.

 

more to the actual topic point, I think that yes, she has changed, as all the characters have changed with Brandon's writing, but nothing too drastic. It was certainly believable and in no way out of character.

 

Edit: I would have to change my vote to "natural evolution"

[Treemaster]

I thought the Gholam was going to do something REALLY BAD to Mat while Elayne was studying his foxhead medallion, but it never came to pass. Perhaps that is still coloring my view some. I haven't reread the Elayne scenes in Towers of Midnight yet, either. My initial reaction may have been harsh. But, during my first read, I was going "wow" in response to nearly every move she made, and not in the good sense.

[EvilSocrates]

I hadn't really considered the matter before this thread, but she was a little bit different. I think it was a continuation of her becoming more like pre-Rahvin Morgase, which is a pretty understandable way for her character to go, given her long-time worship of her mother.

 

Even the Perrin scene, which initially bothered me, made a lot of sense when its viewed this way. When she is attending to Queenly duties, she mostly does an impression of her mom: kinda snippy, fairly scary to deal with, but ultimately just and in accordance with law. Elayne loves her some laws.

[Fel]

Elayne stayed true to her very low expectations. She continued to be focused on her rights and personal power. She would have made a very good High Lord of Tear along the lines of Torean and that crew.

 

I don't want to resurrect the Elayne hate thread, but the only scene that showed some positive growth for her was with Gawyn. I went into it assuming she would berate him and/or order him back or some such...getting a nice sisterly moment of advice was surprising. The rest of her actions continued to show her poor decision making skills and lack of foresight. I am soooo happy that her capital is burning and she has no troops around and I really hope that Talamanes/Olver stay out of it.

 

Same ol' hag.

[Durinax]

Elayne stayed true to her very low expectations. She continued to be focused on her rights and personal power. She would have made a very good High Lord of Tear along the lines of Torean and that crew.

 

I don't want to resurrect the Elayne hate thread, but the only scene that showed some positive growth for her was with Gawyn. I went into it assuming she would berate him and/or order him back or some such...getting a nice sisterly moment of advice was surprising. The rest of her actions continued to show her poor decision making skills and lack of foresight. I am soooo happy that her capital is burning and she has no troops around and I really hope that Talamanes/Olver stay out of it.

 

Same ol' hag.

dont know why people say that she left caemlyn with no troops about. but there would be town guard, mercs, the exta armies that she is raising, kin, and I believe there is still a renegade army running around whoms leader is married to one of the oppositions 'leadership' that quite possibly could be underway to caemlyn. And whats to say that she mobilized the full army.

 

as for her decision making abilities, some have been bad and some have been good, the exact same as all the main characters.

 

lack of foresight I am going to assume this is towards her negotiations with perrin (may be wrong) but I thought this was extremely well done, she thoguht of nearly all her possible courses of action and systematically dismissed them until she was left with a mutually benefitial situation, which is brilliant.

[Finnssss22]

Also without restarting the Elayne hate...I think it comes down to her growth compared to the growth of the other women.

 

Obviously there has been a lot of dislike for many of the main female characters but it seems to me all the others have grown out of a lot of the crap that we disliked.

 

I mean I found Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne, Cads and even Moiraine hard to tolerate at times and some longer and more than others.

 

I have come to embrace Nynaeve now as a favorite right up there with Perrin and Rand (behind Mat though ) even though at one point she was prolly the worst of the lot. Mainly because you know her decisions come from the heart, not for the Tower or for a Kingdom and not for personal gain or influence.

 

I have also come to like Egwene much more, even though I have not been overly impressed with her level of arrogance at times but I also realise that keeping the Tower in line requires it quite often. I see her growth at least but still has a bit to go imo.

 

Moiraine, much like Cads came in thinking she knew best, unwilling to bend and knew very little humility. Both have since come to know that humility and more importantly have embraced it.

Moiraine more than Cads but hey we can't always hope for miracles right heh.

 

...and then comes Elayne...I mean has she really changed that much from the girl that found Rand on the Palace wall in tEotw? Not much imo, less petulant...yes, a little less self centered...yes but much more mature...not really, humble...not really.

Seems to me that Aviendha was a wonderful check on Elayne's behavior and as soon as she went back to the Wiseone's, Elayne reverted.

There's even been a couple times where Elayne thinks to herself that she's glad Avi wasn't there to see her do this or do that. It's like WAKE UP woman, take those thoughts as a clue that you might be acting like a haughty bitch heh.

[David Selig]

Wait - Moiraine and Cadsuane have embraced humility? Really? Even by the very low standards for humility in this series they don't qualify as humble by any means.

 

Speaking of growth, Elayne has changed the least from the 6 main PoV characters IMO (Though a case could be made for Egwene too). But that's natural, since unlike the Two Rivers gang, she didn't have her whole life completely turned upside down. She always expected to be a Queen one day and she knew for years she will be an Aes Sedai. Certainly both things happened way earlier than she expected, and her plans didn't include falling in love with saviour of the world and going around the map on quests to search for ter'angreals and stopping the plans of the Black Ajah, but still compared to the other five her circumstances didn't change nearly as much.

[Finnssss22]

Wait - Moiraine and Cadsuane have embraced humility? Really? Even by the very low standards for humility in this series they don't qualify as humble by any means.

 

 

Ummmm...if Moiraine's sacrifice at the hands of the Snakes and Foxes all this time wasn't humble, I don't know what is.

 

Cads has been humbled by both Rand and his father Tam quite well in fact. While traveling under the Guardians in FM

"I will have that gateway ready" she says more softly

She's definitely come back down to earth a bit imo.

[Auld Manriva]

Elayne's views on some "how nobility should be" have changed over time.. Damn, wouldn't want a character to progress would we. Seems to me she's been through a bit over the course of this story, seen a bit, experienced a bit. And NOW she's The Queen. Actually BEING the leader of one's country is Just a tiny bit different than watching from the bench,

 

She's thinking ahead for Andor and Cairhien, preparing for conflict with the Seanchan. This is Power Hungry? Far from it. She has one of the Most optimistic views of anyone that they're going to defeat the DO and have countries and people to DEFEND! From who? The single most "head up their backsides" aggressive herd of A$$wipes in the whole story.

 

Deal with the Kin? Perfect... Deal with Mat? On Point ... Dealings with Perrin? Just as she should have (reasons have been given in earlier posts). Just wait for what she'll do during this Ruler Convention.

 

I've liked her character all along and I didn't see any noticeable difference in her portrayal.

[dwn]

The choices in language favoured by BS has affected how all the characters feel to a certain degree. In particular, BS seems to have a tendency to use less formal phrasing, which I find a bit off-putting, particularly in spoken dialogue. Also, the quickened pace of TGS and ToM has changed things, some of it good, some bad.

 

I reread KoD just before ToM came out, and, the differences above notwithstanding, nothing about Elayne's chapters in ToM felt substantially off to me.

 

-- dwn