is Taim Moridin?

[Tom Sawyer]

I still think that Taim is Demandred and will consider any scene in the last book with the two of them chatting to each other to be a misprint.

 

RJ said outright that Taim is not Demandred, and that he was surprised people thought that.

 

 

That was a red herring to throw fans off the trail, sort of like how George RR Martin keeps putting things about Jon Snow's "parents" into the Song of Ice and Fire books to try and distract readers from the obvious conclusion that he's Rhaegar's kid. It's pretty clear that Taim and Demandred are the same person, but if Sanderson wants to change the story and make them different characters then I guess that's his right as the new author of the series.

[Suttree]

I still think that Taim is Demandred and will consider any scene in the last book with the two of them chatting to each other to be a misprint.

 

RJ said outright that Taim is not Demandred, and that he was surprised people thought that.

 

 

That was a red herring to throw fans off the trail, sort of like how George RR Martin keeps putting things about Jon Snow's "parents" into the Song of Ice and Fire books to try and distract readers from the obvious conclusion that he's Rhaegar's kid. It's pretty clear that Taim and Demandred are the same person, but if Sanderson wants to change the story and make them different characters then I guess that's his right as the new author of the series.

 

and if a poster wants to troll this topic in attempt to get a rise out of people I guess that's his right.

[Tom Sawyer]

and if a poster wants to troll this topic in attempt to get a rise out of people I guess that's his right.

 

Exactly. Serious responses to joke posts cannot be responded to seriously. It's just wrong.

[Majsju]

 

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

 

Nope. When Taim appeared in Caemlyn, the list of dead forsaken looked like this:

 

Aginor - Recycled as Osan'gar

Balthamel - Recycled as Aran'gar

Ishamael - Recycled as Moridin

Lanfear - Recycled (or soon to be recycled) as Cyndane

Be'lal - Balefired

Rahvin - Balefired

Asmodean - Impossible to recycle, according to RJ.

 

So are you saying you think Moridin was recycled already when Taim showed up? And more importantly are you saying that being recycled disproves him? Because him being recycled is precisely what makes the whole thing possible. Sure, we didnt see Moridin "himself" in Lord of Chaos but when we did see him he already had sa'a, which lends credence to the whole True Power disguise thing. From Lord of Chaos to whenever we got his re-intro he was almost always TP disguised, hence the sa'a.

 

The question I answered was about other forsaken than Moridin, so what I (or anyone else) think about when he was really recycled is quite irrelevant here.

[OptimusPrime]

 

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

 

Nope. When Taim appeared in Caemlyn, the list of dead forsaken looked like this:

 

Aginor - Recycled as Osan'gar

Balthamel - Recycled as Aran'gar

Ishamael - Recycled as Moridin

Lanfear - Recycled (or soon to be recycled) as Cyndane

Be'lal - Balefired

Rahvin - Balefired

Asmodean - Impossible to recycle, according to RJ.

 

So are you saying you think Moridin was recycled already when Taim showed up? And more importantly are you saying that being recycled disproves him? Because him being recycled is precisely what makes the whole thing possible. Sure, we didnt see Moridin "himself" in Lord of Chaos but when we did see him he already had sa'a, which lends credence to the whole True Power disguise thing. From Lord of Chaos to whenever we got his re-intro he was almost always TP disguised, hence the sa'a.

 

The question I answered was about other forsaken than Moridin, so what I (or anyone else) think about when he was really recycled is quite irrelevant here.

 

Fair enough, my bad

[mb]

Unless, could Taim be one of the other forsaken reincarnated? Were there are dead chosen ones up for grabs between Taim's 'rescue' and Taim announcing himself in Caemlyn?

The books confirm 4 resurrections:

-Osangar (Aginor) & Arangar (Balthamel), both having unknown Borderlander bodies; Lord of Chaos Prologue

-Moridin (Ishamael), body unknown; off screen, my guess has been no earlier than Crown of Swords

-Cyndane (Lanfear), body seems to be Cabriana Mecandes; also off screen, sometime after Moridin

 

Belal and Rahvin were both balefired and thus cannot be resurrected.

Robert Jordan told that Asmodean could not be resurrected; Asmodean's death type is currently unknown.

[Dagon Thyne]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

However, the Chosen were not a very exclusive group.....They were made up of the most powerful Darkjfriend channelors. ...If Taim proved powerful, He could have been made Chosen after the dream....Dreamers see one posible future....Not a set one.....Remember how Moiraine was supposed to ask to go to Rhuidean, but she ended up being told about it instead? The Dream does not always tell what will be....

[Finnssss22]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

However, the Chosen were not a very exclusive group.....They were made up of the most powerful Darkjfriend channelors. ...If Taim proved powerful, He could have been made Chosen after the dream....Dreamers see one posible future....Not a set one.....Remember how Moiraine was supposed to ask to go to Rhuidean, but she ended up being told about it instead? The Dream does not always tell what will be....

 

 

 

Except that particular dream wasn't about the future, it was the past to the present. It started with 13 and ends with 6. There was no 14th tower added.

 

Now granted, it's possible that Taim was raised after her dream but that's a pretty small window and why would it be done now instead of much, much earlier?

Hell, the BT timeline at the end of ToM, is either at the point where Egwene has that dream or at most, within a week after it.

Either way, the BT timeline is at minimum 2 weeks behind everyone else. Confirmed by BS.

[OptimusPrime]

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

However, the Chosen were not a very exclusive group.....They were made up of the most powerful Darkjfriend channelors. ...If Taim proved powerful, He could have been made Chosen after the dream....Dreamers see one posible future....Not a set one.....Remember how Moiraine was supposed to ask to go to Rhuidean, but she ended up being told about it instead? The Dream does not always tell what will be....

 

 

 

Except that particular dream wasn't about the future, it was the past to the present. It started with 13 and ends with 6. There was no 14th tower added.

 

Now granted, it's possible that Taim was raised after her dream but that's a pretty small window and why would it be done now instead of much, much earlier?

Hell, the BT timeline at the end of ToM, is either at the point where Egwene has that dream or at most, within a week after it.

Either way, the BT timeline is at minimum 2 weeks behind everyone else. Confirmed by BS.

 

Thats the part of AMoL Im looking forward to the most.

 

As if that isnt obvious. Hahaha

[Luckers]

Mmm. I replied to this point Finnssss.

 

Has anyone ever thought of the idea that Taim is merely a powerful darkfriend channelor who wants to serve the DO as a Dreadlord and not one of the forsaken?

 

I believe he was, I think he has since been raised Chosen.

 

 

Egwene's dream early in ToM seems to say different.

13 towers, then there were only 6.

Chosen alive at the time of the dream

Moridin

Cyndane

Moggy

Graeny

Demandred

Mesaana

 

Marked like Alviarin seems more likely imo.

 

Mmm perhaps. 'Seems to say' may well be the key there, though, as there are several oddities in the portrayal of the imagery of the Towers--and in many ways what it seems to say is not very accurate. After all it starts with thirteen--and yet there were onces tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Chosen, and for that matter at least twenty-nine altogether who stood equal to the thirteen that survived into modern times--so its beginning in a set state, roughly EotW era. Or perhaps more accurately it begins with the perception of the Forsaken to a Third Ager--the myth of them, in effect.

 

This would make more sense anyway, as nor do the towers fall and rise to show death and rebirth along the way, with the possible exception of Moridin, if indeed the sagging and rising tower does refer to Moridin, and not, say Graendal, who falls in TofM and may yet rise. Certainly that would explain why the others who died and rose aren't shown--in effect the whole dreams seems caste originally in Egwene perceptions--or else it should have shown thousands, or began with six. Or shown thirteen and shown the steady progression, fall and rise and fall again. It seems instead to start with the concept, and then to bring that concept in line with the truth.

 

In which case Taim would have no place anyway, as none but the Thirteen hold place within the concept. In effect, whilst the Midnight Towers may all be Chosen, not all Chosen may be Midnight Towers.

 

In any case whatever Taim has become, I suspect he stands higher than Alviarin.

 

 

If you had read this you would know that your comment that this dream addresses the past to the present is incorrect. After all, we don't see the fall and rise of the recycled Forsaken. Nor do we see the old guard forsaken.

 

This dream represents the Forsaken the Third Agers reguard as Forsaken--the thirteen that were bound. From there it seems to draw in line with the modern state, as of book 12, though in fact it doesn't--at least not in any clear cut way, and in each potential interpretation there are problems.

[Finnssss22]

 

If you had read this you would know that your comment that this dream addresses the past to the present is incorrect. After all, we don't see the fall and rise of the recycled Forsaken. Nor do we see the old guard forsaken.

 

This dream represents the Forsaken the Third Agers reguard as Forsaken--the thirteen that were bound. From there it seems to draw in line with the modern state, as of book 12, though in fact it doesn't--at least not in any clear cut way, and in each potential interpretation there are problems.

 

No, no, I read it man and while atm I don't believe Taim has been raised it did get me thinking about this very premise.

Notably, about KoD chapter 3 "At the Gardens" and why, as Aran'gar points out, there are 11 chairs when there should of only been 8 or at most 9 with Osan'gar's death being fresh.

 

So while I'm not in the camp that thinks Taim has been raised, I can definitely see it being a credible possibility.

[CauthonsLuck]

I thought that Demendrad said to Moridin, that he was working on his secret project. And to me it seems like he is collecting 100 companions, like Lews Therin, for the Last Battle.

[OptimusPrime]

I thought that Demendrad said to Moridin, that he was working on his secret project. And to me it seems like he is collecting 100 companions, like Lews Therin, for the Last Battle.

 

Demandred gathering his own following? Yes please!

[Kahsm]

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

[CauthonsLuck]

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

 

Well he does say "Let the Lord of Chaos rule again", so that does seem pretty suspicious...But I suppose he could be a nice guy, if we don't count his followers who laugh with evil laughs, and his breaking of the Black Tower. But I suppose that Elaida broke the White Tower and she wasn't a darkfriend...so maybe...just maybe...

[Kahsm]

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

 

Well he does say "Let the Lord of Chaos rule again", so that does seem pretty suspicious...But I suppose he could be a nice guy, if we don't count his followers who laugh with evil laughs, and his breaking of the Black Tower. But I suppose that Elaida broke the White Tower and she wasn't a darkfriend...so maybe...just maybe...

 

Exactly, there's plenty of bad/selfish/power-glory hungry dudes who don't have to be friends of the dark. Maybe he hears shit from DF associates. Or maybe he's Verin-ish, where he's technically part of the association, but doesn't see himself that way. Would make the "let the lord of chaos rule thing" be more like a sarcastic, "meh, guess I'm inline with them for now"

[newcastlemal]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but when Moridin gives Graendal the dreamspike that Perrin destroys in ToM, he says there are 2 only, in his possession. Now, at the end of ToM, Androl and others in the Black Tower realise something is stopping the weaves for Gateways. That has to be the dreamspike. And as Perrin destroyed one, that means Moridin must have put the other at the BT. So that's a small clue Moridin is Taim. Of course, he could have given the spike to someone else, eg. Taim directly, but I don't see Moridin trusting anyone but himself with the last remaining known dreamspike in the world!

 

Stupid combo names for Moridin/ Taim. Moridin + Taim = Maim. better than Taridin :-)

[newcastlemal]

I just think there are so many links between Taim and Moridin: the red and black colours, the dreamspike, Taim's personal hatred of Rand, his increasing egomania and the way he gets under Rand's/ LTT's skin, his references to the "Lord of Chaos" (Moridin is Nae'Blis and Ishamael half-thought he WAS the DO), etc. etc. etc. If they aren't the same person, then he must be Moridin's most powerful Dreadlord as he trusts him with the dreamspike and hundreds of Asha'Man. No way is he Demandred, and I wanted him for years to be Demandred...

 

Stupid combo names for Moridin/ Taim. Moridin + Taim = Maim. better than Taridin :-)

[Kahsm]

Taim seems pretty clearly jealous of Rand. I certainly don't see why the Naeblis would be jealous of Rand after purposely subjugating himself. He doesn't seem to be at odds with the DO's orders, so I don't think he's worried Rand will take his spot, and I'm not sure he'd care since he's one of the few that realizes there will be no world to rule after the DO escapes. So unless it's a stupidly elaborate ruse, I don't see how their personalities match at all.

 

Certainly don't see any personal hate when Moridin saves Rand in Shadar Logoth.

[Mr Ares]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but when Moridin gives Graendal the dreamspike that Perrin destroys in ToM, he says there are 2 only, in his possession. Now, at the end of ToM, Androl and others in the Black Tower realise something is stopping the weaves for Gateways. That has to be the dreamspike. And as Perrin destroyed one, that means Moridin must have put the other at the BT. So that's a small clue Moridin is Taim. Of course, he could have given the spike to someone else, eg. Taim directly, but I don't see Moridin trusting anyone but himself with the last remaining known dreamspike in the world!

You do make a compelling case - for Graendal being Moridin. Of course, if you want to accept that Moridin isn't Graendal, then the validity of any point about him not letting a Dreamspike out of his grasp is called into doubt rather.

[mb]

About dreamspike, the placing of them would also need to be considered. They seem to work only when in telaranrhiod.

As of yet, Taim has not been seen there by anybody.

[Finnssss22]

About dreamspike, the placing of them would also need to be considered. They seem to work only when in telaranrhiod.

As of yet, Taim has not been seen there by anybody.

 

 

You don't have to be in TAR to activate them. Moridin activates the one he gave to Graendal from the real world and then said that he trusted she would know where to find it.

[SylvanFox]

So you're all convinced Taim is just another darkfriend? Lame. Suppose it makes sense given how ignored he has been as a character after such a grand entrance and a vaulted position.

 

Not me! If he isn't Moridin in disguise, he MUST be some sort of disciple of Moridin. There have just been too many hints for one or the other not to be true. I mean.... the colors! C'mon, that was the final giveaway that these two have something to do with each other. Either he's Moridin or he's Moridin's puppy.

[The Gambler55]

I just think there are so many links between Taim and Moridin: the red and black colours, the dreamspike, Taim's personal hatred of Rand, his increasing egomania and the way he gets under Rand's/ LTT's skin, his references to the "Lord of Chaos" (Moridin is Nae'Blis and Ishamael half-thought he WAS the DO), etc. etc. etc. If they aren't the same person, then he must be Moridin's most powerful Dreadlord as he trusts him with the dreamspike and hundreds of Asha'Man. No way is he Demandred, and I wanted him for years to be Demandred...

 

Stupid combo names for Moridin/ Taim. Moridin + Taim = Maim. better than Taridin :-)

 

The first two themes you mention are related directly to the Black Tower wich I feel is the biggest Pro when discussing Taim = Moridin. However, we are still lacking the neccesary information to draw a conclusion, but I will add what I think might be another fact to this theory. In chapter 5 of TOM Moridin brings Graendal to a "black stone palace." He then proceeds to take her to another room in the palace, "Moridin led her to the nearby door, set in the same black stone walls." He takes her into a room that seems to be very similiar the the storage in of that of the white tower. Only one of the forsaken could have knowledge of the white tower and contain the proper knowledge to build a very similiar tower.

 

Continuing the theory that Moridin resides in the black tower, in TGS chapter 15, when Rand is dreaming he visits Moridin, in a palace made of black stone. Moridin is confused and angered by Rand's presence. Moridin definately wants to keep Rand from visting him again "un-invited." Now flash-forward to the meeting I referenced above, Moridin says the other dreamspike is being put to good use. It is possible Moridin is using the Dreamspike at the place where he resides to prevent another unexpected visit from Rand (we all know the location of the other dreamspike is the Black Tower). Also, Moridin opens both gateways during the meeting maybe because they are at the place where the other dreamspike is (only he has the keys to the two of them). In past expereinces when the Forsaken have been summoned they usually still travel to the places by creating their own gateways.

 

This is all speculation ofcourse but I do feel that there is some merit to these facts and Moridin can def be masacrading as Taim.

[Majsju]

I just think there are so many links between Taim and Moridin: the red and black colours, the dreamspike, Taim's personal hatred of Rand, his increasing egomania and the way he gets under Rand's/ LTT's skin, his references to the "Lord of Chaos" (Moridin is Nae'Blis and Ishamael half-thought he WAS the DO), etc. etc. etc. If they aren't the same person, then he must be Moridin's most powerful Dreadlord as he trusts him with the dreamspike and hundreds of Asha'Man. No way is he Demandred, and I wanted him for years to be Demandred...

 

Stupid combo names for Moridin/ Taim. Moridin + Taim = Maim. better than Taridin :-)

 

The first two themes you mention are related directly to the Black Tower wich I feel is the biggest Pro when discussing Taim = Moridin. However, we are still lacking the neccesary information to draw a conclusion, but I will add what I think might be another fact to this theory. In chapter 5 of TOM Moridin brings Graendal to a "black stone palace." He then proceeds to take her to another room in the palace, "Moridin led her to the nearby door, set in the same black stone walls." He takes her into a room that seems to be very similiar the the storage in of that of the white tower. Only one of the forsaken could have knowledge of the white tower and contain the proper knowledge to build a very similiar tower.

 

Continuing the theory that Moridin resides in the black tower, in TGS chapter 15, when Rand is dreaming he visits Moridin, in a palace made of black stone. Moridin is confused and angered by Rand's presence. Moridin definately wants to keep Rand from visting him again "un-invited." Now flash-forward to the meeting I referenced above, Moridin says the other dreamspike is being put to good use. It is possible Moridin is using the Dreamspike at the place where he resides to prevent another unexpected visit from Rand (we all know the location of the other dreamspike is the Black Tower). Also, Moridin opens both gateways during the meeting maybe because they are at the place where the other dreamspike is (only he has the keys to the two of them). In past expereinces when the Forsaken have been summoned they usually still travel to the places by creating their own gateways.

 

This is all speculation ofcourse but I do feel that there is some merit to these facts and Moridin can def be masacrading as Taim.

 

Graendal pretty much immidiatly identified the land she saw outside the window as the deep blight. So unless a huge chunk of the Blight has been relocated to Andor, Moridins house/fortress/palace is not the BT.