is Taim Moridin?

[OptimusPrime]

Lord of Chaos paperback Chapter 2 page 94.

 

Blah blah blah they bring him in, Rand ponders a moment, Lews Therin rambles a bit.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Marim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

 

The first spoken words after his arrival are a challenge of his identity by the only person that we know who knew Taim and has seen him onscreen.

 

Where the heck is Cadsuane when you need her? She dealt with Taim.

 

Bashere DID challenge him! Why? Based on his appearance. Taim says he had a shave, and winds Bashere up with two things. He says, on p95 at the top, "What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Referring to himself in 3rd person when his identity being questioned is WAAAAAAAY sarcastic. And its bloody hilarious! The second thing to wind Bashere up is when he recounts to Bashere in front of everyone about something he did to Basheres loved ones or something, and THEN Bashere growls "Taim" and goes for him, but Rand stops him.

 

Ive got to say, this is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Way better than VoG

 

 

and then shortly after Bashere was content to admit that it is Taim so the quote provided isn't worth much.

 

You have been working on this for sometime Drekka. Ever come up for an answer for why Moridin as Taim would risk his life and allow himself to be harried across half a continent by ignorant savages..."rode hard and put away wet" instead of just travelling to caemlyn?

 

Ishamael didnt get Taims body til after all that. Taim WAS put out to dry, fair enough. Thats why he looks older when he first showed up in LoC. But then Moridin got his body.

 

:D

[FarShainMael]

Lord of Chaos paperback Chapter 2 page 94.

 

Blah blah blah they bring him in, Rand ponders a moment, Lews Therin rambles a bit.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Marim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

 

The first spoken words after his arrival are a challenge of his identity by the only person that we know who knew Taim and has seen him onscreen.

 

Where the heck is Cadsuane when you need her? She dealt with Taim.

 

Bashere DID challenge him! Why? Based on his appearance. Taim says he had a shave, and winds Bashere up with two things. He says, on p95 at the top, "What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Referring to himself in 3rd person when his identity being questioned is WAAAAAAAY sarcastic. And its bloody hilarious! The second thing to wind Bashere up is when he recounts to Bashere in front of everyone about something he did to Basheres loved ones or something, and THEN Bashere growls "Taim" and goes for him, but Rand stops him.

 

Ive got to say, this is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Way better than VoG

 

I read this scene as two DFs putting on a little show to convince Rand et al that they aren't in cahoots in any way. No sirree. We be the best of enemies, we be..

[damandred]

What? bashere a DF?. Say more

[FarShainMael]

There's a whole thread on this..

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/50915-the-davram-bashere-darkfriend-theory/

[OptimusPrime]

Lord of Chaos paperback Chapter 2 page 94.

 

Blah blah blah they bring him in, Rand ponders a moment, Lews Therin rambles a bit.

 

Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Marim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it wasnt his.

 

The first spoken words after his arrival are a challenge of his identity by the only person that we know who knew Taim and has seen him onscreen.

 

Where the heck is Cadsuane when you need her? She dealt with Taim.

 

Bashere DID challenge him! Why? Based on his appearance. Taim says he had a shave, and winds Bashere up with two things. He says, on p95 at the top, "What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?" Referring to himself in 3rd person when his identity being questioned is WAAAAAAAY sarcastic. And its bloody hilarious! The second thing to wind Bashere up is when he recounts to Bashere in front of everyone about something he did to Basheres loved ones or something, and THEN Bashere growls "Taim" and goes for him, but Rand stops him.

 

Ive got to say, this is probably my favorite scene in the entire series. Way better than VoG

 

I read this scene as two DFs putting on a little show to convince Rand et al that they aren't in cahoots in any way. No sirree. We be the best of enemies, we be..

 

Definitely a possibility, I do think its a possibility Bashere is an important piece in the bigger puzzle. Thing that convinces me he isnt a Darkfriend is Mins comment about him. "If he turns against you, or dies..." That to me makes it sound like he hadnt turned against Rand yet.

 

I dont think Bashere was a Darkfriend when he appeared in LoC.

[yoniy0]

Taim WAS put out to dry, fair enough. Thats why he looks older when he first showed up in LoC.

Now you've confused me. I thought you maintained that what we see of Taim wasn't his real appearance, but an illusion crafted by Moridin?

[OptimusPrime]

Taim WAS put out to dry, fair enough. Thats why he looks older when he first showed up in LoC.

Now you've confused me. I thought you maintained that what we see of Taim wasn't his real appearance, but an illusion crafted by Moridin?

 

Um. Yeah you got me there, my bad.

 

Damnit! :D

 

Ok him appearing older when disguised is one I cant explain, unless he really does shapechange like I said before.

 

nice one yoniy hahaha

[damandred]

If bashere was a DF wouldn't new inproved rand have noticed he says to weiramon "I want you do deliver a message for me to the others of your....association. Tell them they cannot hide among my allies any longer".

[FarShainMael]

Shall we take that one to the other thread?

[damandred]

Rand at maradon??

[FarShainMael]

I've just bumped it..

[Son Of Feanor]

Wheels within wheels plans within plans.

always for the purpose of misdirection..

this is the way of the dark.

 

What was that poem RJ wrote?

 

the moon by day and the sun by night

the lions roar and the hills take flight

blind man deaf woman jackdaw fool

let the lord of chaos rule..

 

these thoughts of mazrindin are an example of this in the books (i thinks)

and it illustrates the idea of the lord of choas in his rule

lies instead of the truth.

also re Bashere

 

he is a good man and true not a DF in anyway shape or form

if it turns out that he is i will be VERY dissappointed.

 

as for Taim being Moridin i am unsure and i doubt it

i am more persuaded by the Taim = Taim argument.

But.

 

Yes there is one his mannerisms are of the AoL and he talks like them (sometimes)

 

again let the lord of chaos rule...

there is no doubt about his being a DF though

i hope Rand kills him soon. he is a very detestible person esp in regards to his doing the

13x13 on all those poor aes sedai and ashamans

 

what a horrible thing to be turned against your will to the dark.

 

ALAS for the world where so much pain is .

[Son Of Feanor]

PPS. Rereading the gathering storm will keep an eye posted regarding taim = moridin etc.

 

ty for this thread VERY INTERESTING it is

[mb]

The forced turnings at Black Tower, not sure Taim done them.

Demandred might have been behind them.

 

Taim's alliance is uncertain to me. Only thing certain about it is that Taim is non-Light.

 

 

Gathering Storm, Taim does not appear in that book.

[Son Of Feanor]

Just refinished TGS and no Taim and his mystery remains

 

but there is no doubt of his darkness is there?

 

as re. Demandred even so... it would need a Taim as an ally.

 

(or is he under compulsion?)

[Son Of Feanor]

Am now rereading the towers of midnight... looking for more clues to unravel this weave of darkness.

 

Confusion to the Dark

[FarShainMael]

P.S. You mentioned searching for this quote earlier in the thread: "The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage." Because I am that damn good.

 

 

I was reminded of that when I came across this in my re-read. It describes the dome of taint that Rand and Nynaeve form in Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing:

 

Moghedien was not sure why she had remained this long. There could not be more than two hours of daylight left, and the forest was quiet. Except for the key, she could not feel saidar being channeled anywhere. That was not to say that someone was not using small amounts somewhere, but nothing like the fury that had raged earlier. The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat. Plainly defeat, since the key still blazed in her head. Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.

 

Lying on her belly atop her high vantage point with her chin in her hands, she was watching the great dome. Black no longer seemed to describe it. There was no term for it, now, but black was a pale color by comparison. It was half a ball, now, rearing like a mountain two miles or more into the sky. A thick layer of shadow lay around it, as though it were sucking the last light out of the air. She could not understand why she was not afraid. That thing might grow until it enveloped the entire world, or perhaps shatter the world, as Aran’gar had said it might. But if that happened, there was no safe place, no shadows for the Spider to hide in.

 

Suddenly something writhed up from that dark smooth surface, like a flame if flames were blacker than black, then another, another, until the dome boiled with Stygian fire. The roar of ten thousand thunders made her clap her hands over her ears and shriek, soundlessly in that crash, and the dome collapsed in on itself in the space of a heartbeat, to a pinpoint, to nothing.

 

The biggest 'dark aura' ever?

 

Does the taint itself cause a dark aura around people who have been channelling strongly or for a long time?

[OptimusPrime]

P.S. You mentioned searching for this quote earlier in the thread: "The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage." Because I am that damn good.

 

 

I was reminded of that when I came across this in my re-read. It describes the dome of taint that Rand and Nynaeve form in Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing:

 

Moghedien was not sure why she had remained this long. There could not be more than two hours of daylight left, and the forest was quiet. Except for the key, she could not feel saidar being channeled anywhere. That was not to say that someone was not using small amounts somewhere, but nothing like the fury that had raged earlier. The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat. Plainly defeat, since the key still blazed in her head. Amazing that the Choedan Kal had survived continuous use for this long, at this level.

 

Lying on her belly atop her high vantage point with her chin in her hands, she was watching the great dome. Black no longer seemed to describe it. There was no term for it, now, but black was a pale color by comparison. It was half a ball, now, rearing like a mountain two miles or more into the sky. A thick layer of shadow lay around it, as though it were sucking the last light out of the air. She could not understand why she was not afraid. That thing might grow until it enveloped the entire world, or perhaps shatter the world, as Aran’gar had said it might. But if that happened, there was no safe place, no shadows for the Spider to hide in.

 

Suddenly something writhed up from that dark smooth surface, like a flame if flames were blacker than black, then another, another, until the dome boiled with Stygian fire. The roar of ten thousand thunders made her clap her hands over her ears and shriek, soundlessly in that crash, and the dome collapsed in on itself in the space of a heartbeat, to a pinpoint, to nothing.

 

The biggest 'dark aura' ever?

 

Does the taint itself cause a dark aura around people who have been channelling strongly or for a long time?

 

No. Why would Ishamael have it? The Taint and the True Power arent the same thing.

 

I think the aura is just a way of showing that they come from the same source, I say that because Fain and Shadar Logoth dont get the same description. To me it seems like the aura is present when one is negatively affecting the Pattern. It only seems to appear when the person in question is particularly dark or nihilistic in their thoughts; Rand doesnt need explaining, Moridin is the same... the only other time is Taim in Winters Heart prologue, and thats one of his uber-nasty predator moments. Its not directly tied to channeling the True Power, as Rand proved in TGS when he nearly killed Tam. Tam said the room went dark, and in Rands PoV he siezed saidin with the Choeden Kal, not the True Power.

 

If the dark aura was to do with the Taint, Rand should have had it every time he channeled after the Cleansing. I doubt anyone had ever channeled that much of the Taint before, other than Lews Therin himself.

[FarShainMael]

Yep, I like that.

 

So, on a related matter poss OT, is the 'light aura' that Min perceives around Rand in ToM13 a sign of his new, positive influence on the pattern? Almen Bunt also saw it in the orchard.

[Southpaw89]

I think the light aura represents the calmness and peace he has begun to find in himself. That being said, there is still something off with him as we know when Nyneave saw the black specks. There's gonna be a twist in AMoL I have a feeling. The link with Moridin will be big

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'd say the light represents an actual power within him, a growing manifestation of that which makes him the Dragon. It is his connection to the land (that which makes things grow), and it seems likely to me that it will be what brings the second dawn, though not necessarily in the literal sense.

[ElusiveAthena]

I think Taim is Ishamael, but I don't think Morridin and Ishamael are the same. I think there was a real Mazrim Taim, and he was the one the Bashere saw, then he was killed and replaced by Ishamael Reborn. That would explain a lot - why Lews Therin says "if I can kill him, then that will make up for everything", why Taim didn't go mad from the taint, why he hated being called an Asha'man. Also his contempt for Rand is Ishamael's loathing for Lews Therin and his contempt for him.. I think Morridin is someone else entirely - a random factor that The Dark One kept back. For example, the "saa" only appear after a long time channeling the True Source. But if Morridin is Ishamael reborn then he has only been in that body for little over a year, therefore he shouldn't have saa. And when Rand fought Ba'alzamon he fought someone channeling saidin, not the True Source.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think Taim is Ishamael, but I don't think Morridin and Ishamael are the same. I think there was a real Mazrim Taim, and he was the one the Bashere saw, then he was killed and replaced by Ishamael Reborn. That would explain a lot - why Lews Therin says "if I can kill him, then that will make up for everything", why Taim didn't go mad from the taint, why he hated being called an Asha'man. Also his contempt for Rand is Ishamael's loathing for Lews Therin and his contempt for him.. I think Morridin is someone else entirely - a random factor that The Dark One kept back. For example, the "saa" only appear after a long time channeling the True Source. But if Morridin is Ishamael reborn then he has only been in that body for little over a year, therefore he shouldn't have saa. And when Rand fought Ba'alzamon he fought someone channeling saidin, not the True Source.

 

Just a note, it has been confirmed that Ishamael is Moridin. Not sure what you have read, but yeah, theres no doubt about it now.

 

Edit: here is a quote from Theoryland interview database. There are many more, and the in-book evidence.

 

Brandon on Twitter - 3 January 2011

Man, I love the EotW prologue. Some of my favorite writing in the entire series. Great insight into Ishamael's personality pre-madness.

Brandon

People like to talk of Rand's character development. Elan -> Ishamael -> Moridin is almost as interesting to me. His outlook has evolved so much.

[OptimusPrime]

Plus, if he IS Taim he is clearly using the True Power for the disguise (or at least it seems that way to me) which explains why Moridin has the sa'a already, even though hes only had Taims body for a relatively short period of time. I used to be dead sure he was shapechanging with the True Power, now though I just think its a True Power mask of mirror thingy, which is funny because of how hard I opposed that idea before hahahahahaha

 

What can I say? MoM makes more sense. Its the kind of thing a beard could interfere with...

[mb]

Gathering Storm confirms Moridin being Ishamael resurrected.

 

saa, that might like transfer through the transmigration. Or if not, the size of the weaves might be one factor on the rate saa form.

 

Lews Therin wanting Taim dead, that could be Lews Therin being paranoid.

 

Taim did not seem to hate being called Ashaman. dislike might be more accurate.

There might be many reasons for either.

 

Ishamael I take always used the True Power.

 

 

Edit:: About Illusion, the saa I would guess cannot be disguised.