Logain's Glory and Callandor

[stathman]

I think that Min's recent viewing involving Callandor in ToM and the 'Logain's Glory' viewing are totally related. Here's what I think is going on:

 

1) Min keeps telling Rand that Callandor must be used by himself and two other women (Nynaeve and someone as yet to be determined, but probably Egwene or Moraine IMO).

 

2) However, she also tells him that it is flawed and will leave him somehow exposed. Well, if he is in some kind of circle trying to break/seal the bore with Callandor that will leave the DO completely unattended for some period of time (really dangerous IMO). I think this is the flaw; that is, you can't seal the bore and fight the DO at the same time.

 

3) Callandor channels Saidin/Saidar (depending on the role the women have in it). It makes no sense for Rand to use Saidin while fighting the DO, when he now has access to the seemingly much more effective TP.

 

4) Min 'sees' a black onyx hand holding Callandor; I think this is where Logain comes in. He is a member of the BT (albeit somewhat in hiding at the moment). The black hand is the foretelling of a member of the BT wielding Callandor.

 

5) Nyn and Logain already have a history together; she healed his severing, and thus, he must trust her quite a bit. Also, Nyn must know whether he is internally a good guy or a bad guy from all that probing she did when trying to heal him.

 

6) So, here how its going down IMO:

- Nyn, Moraine or Egwene and Logain form circle with Callandor

- Rand breaks seals and keeps DO occupied using the TP.

- The 3 wielders of the OP/Callandor seal the bore.

- Logain gains his glory. Rand probably dies, although I'd be happy if none of the good guys die.

 

Point 7 is a little more far fetched - but an interesting thought anyway:

7) also, I think that Gawyn's bloodknife terangreal may play a role in keeping the three wielders of Callandor hidden during the MMA fight between the DO and Rand. The only reason I say this is because there are 3 terangreal and he might give one to Egwene if she ends up going to SG with Callandor. The fact that these rings work on both guys and gals makes me think they might be useful in that regard. Although, once they start using the OP at SG anyone who could channel the OP would be able to see them I suppose. Alternatively, they may just scare/awe the Seanchen when Egwene next meets them. Can you imagine her Warder standing behind her with these 3 rings in plain view, while negotiating with the Seanchen. Almost like scalps taken after a battle (I am getting off topic).

 

Anyway, what do you guys think about my theory regarding Logain/Callandor?

[Terez]

Rand can't use the True Power at Shayol Ghul. Besides the fact that it's evil and he probably shouldn't touch it again for that reason alone, the True Power is so thick in the air around Shayol Ghul that trying to channel it would burn you to a crisp. Moghedien said so, and RJ verified it in interview.

[stathman]

Rand can't use the True Power at Shayol Ghul. Besides the fact that it's evil and he probably shouldn't touch it again for that reason alone, the True Power is so thick in the air around Shayol Ghul that trying to channel it would burn you to a crisp. Moghedien said so, and RJ verified it in interview.

 

Thanks for the info. I think my theory can still hold, though. Only difference is that Rand uses the OP to occupy the DO while the other 3 are sealing the bore.

[yoniy0]

I agree that, since Rand can't lead a Circle of three, it makes no sense for the climax of the series to be his using Callandor with two women to fix the Bore. That doesn't mean that Callandor doesn't have an equally important part to play before the ultimate climax, though.

[moratcorlm]

The entire shtick of WOT being "legend fades to myth", it wouldn't be too odd if the hero turned out not to be the hero after all, that Rand's role (while crucial) was a purely passive one.

[stathman]

The entire shtick of WOT being "legend fades to myth", it wouldn't be too odd if the hero turned out not to be the hero after all, that Rand's role (while crucial) was a purely passive one.

 

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that the hero's role in this case (Rand) will be a passive one. I think that the focus will be on keeping the DO at bay while the others in the circle are sealing the bore. But, you're right, over time the glory will be attribted to the members of the circle as opposed to Rand.

[moratcorlm]

But, you're right, over time the glory will be attribted to the members of the circle as opposed to Rand.

No, I was saying the opposite: that The Dragon would get the credit no matter what happens, even if his only role is to stand in Shayol Ghul being The Dragon while others perform whatever ritual is required to close the Bore until he keels over and bleeds on the rocks.

 

I'm not advancing that theory, by the way; I honestly don't know what the resolution to that particular plot will be. I'm just saying that yoniy0's statement that "since Rand can't lead a Circle of three, it makes no sense for the climax of the series" is not necessarily ironclad.

[randsc]

The Dragon would get the credit, but not necessarily Rand al'Thor. If Logain is taking a sort of (not yet in existence) Throne of the Dragon, for example, it could happen that Rand was instrumental in winning the LB, not passive at all, and yet the "legend fades to myth" thing results in someone else getting credit.

 

I'm not really advancing that theory, but it could be.

 

In my preferred outcome, the throne Logain takes is the Amyrlin Seat.

[Sigur]

To me the black hand (onyx hand) is going to be a replacement hand for Rand, a ter'angreal one made by Elayne or someone. Logains glory will come from him taking charge after Rand fakes his own death or swaps bodies with Ish.

[Elan Tedronai]

rand is going to sheath the sword with callandor. He may die and come back to life with people thinking he is dead or he may fake his own death. Once the bore is sealed, he will vanish annoynmously and retire. The dragon reborn has now passed into legends.

 

As for logain, i have said it before and i say it again Logain will assume the leadership of all Ashaman and herald the coming of a new age of Male Aes sedai working in tandem with the female Aes sedai led by Egwene. That's his glory

[Awakened]

To me the black hand (onyx hand) is going to be a replacement hand for Rand, a ter'angreal one made by Elayne or someone. Logains glory will come from him taking charge after Rand fakes his own death or swaps bodies with Ish.

 

Min says that using Callandor will leave him vulnerable. My guess is that Rand will be imbued with the Dark One's essence by using Callandor and wind up like Ishmael eventually did. Eyes and mouth of fire and all that. Then, when all seems lost, Fain comes in and kills Rand/Dark One. Because he is apart from the Pattern he can change it in ways it wasn't meant to. He will set everyone free.

[androgyn]

I have start to think if this Logain's glory could be something about being leader of the Ashaman and rule in the White Tower with Amyrlin. Elaida did foretell that "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds", so Ashaman will need a new place to stay. What would be better (for them, Egwene wouldn't like the idea..) place than White Tower itselfs, where men and women chanellers could be side by side?

ToM, Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod:

She turned from the window, then frozen.

There, set in to the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of Dragon's Fang. That wasn't part of the original window. Egwene stepped forward, inspecting the glass.

There is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One, Verin's meticulous voice said, a memory from another time. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aren'rhiod.

Did this windows represent one of those, another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled Tar Valon side by side?

[Ashandarei]

I have start to think if this Logain's glory could be something about being leader of the Ashaman and rule in the White Tower with Amyrlin. Elaida did foretell that "The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds", so Ashaman will need a new place to stay. What would be better (for them, Egwene wouldn't like the idea..) place than White Tower itselfs, where men and women chanellers could be side by side?

ToM, Egwene in Tel'aran'rhiod:

She turned from the window, then frozen.

There, set in to the glass below the Flame of Tar Valon, was a large segment in the shape of Dragon's Fang. That wasn't part of the original window. Egwene stepped forward, inspecting the glass.

There is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One, Verin's meticulous voice said, a memory from another time. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aren'rhiod.

Did this windows represent one of those, another world where Dragon and Amyrlin ruled Tar Valon side by side?

 

Somehow while reading that I never thought about the broader implication of Logain and the other Ashaman that you mention... Thanks for the reference!

[randsc]

I assume that that is the ultimate purpose of Elaida's tower. What exactly the final governance arrangement will be, I have no idea.

[Mandro]

I don't read all of the interviews, where is it that rand can't use the TP at SG?

 

The three will be rand, Nynaeve, and Alivia, is my opinion, and when (I will mess this up) "the sword of light will stand against the infinite voide and split in twain" or something like that, is Rands darkness, being torn seperate, allowing him to face the darkone incarnate. Also, I believe that the 3 becoming one isn't just about the number of people but about the powers. Saidar, saidin and The True Power, all channeled through callendor "making him vulnerable." When he is split in twain, Alivia will kill the darkness, nynaeve will save the light.

[jemron]

I don't read all of the interviews, where is it that rand can't use the TP at SG?

 

 

I could be wrong, but I think this is just an assumption by the fans, and not a confirmed "fact." I think Demandred mentions in the prologue of LoC that he can't channel saidin near SG because the DO will burn him to ash, but I don't recall that being said specifically about the TP; however, the thought is that, since the TP comes directly from the DO, Rand couldn't possibly use it without the DO knowing...

 

That's the assumption by many fans, but my personal theory is that the DO may not know that Rand has that access, since he has it only through his strange link with Moridin. Maybe the DO is unaware that it is Rand that is using it... It's a stretch, but it's possible. Why go through all that trouble in TGS to have Rand use it, if he'll only ever use it once? Maybe, if nothing else, the fact that he CAN use it, means that he can sense it being used in others, and so it will help him in the end without requiring him to use it again??

[yoniy0]

I could be wrong, but I think this is just an assumption by the fans, and not a confirmed "fact."

In fact, you are. We have it both from the books and from RJ:

The Bore into the Great Lord's place of imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

 

EDIT: Yes, I've just noticed that RJ mentions here that the OP can't be used to Heal insanity. Hmm, I wonder what Nynaeve would say about that? Asking Brandon about it now.

[Mandro]

Okay, how about this? skip the TP at SG, How can there be no use of the OP? I think that the line about being burned to a cinder is that moridin and graendal have access to the TP through Surrender to the DO, and are appearing at SG as supplicants. How does that apply to rand? His nemesis, who must stand at SG and fight the DO, Alludra gunna make him a blunderbuss?

[Dream]

EDIT: Yes, I've just noticed that RJ mentions here that the OP can't be used to Heal insanity. Hmm, I wonder what Nynaeve would say about that? Asking Brandon about it now.

Well, Nynaeve didn't Heal insanity, she just removed the Taint effect from the mind. Whereas Ishamael did Heal Lews Therin's insanity. The different being Lews Therin was struck immediately insane by the Dark One while the Asha'man Nynaeve heals is only going mad from the Taint. See?

 

Okay, I'd like to see Brandon's explanation too.

 

 

Back on topic,

 

Okay, how about this? skip the TP at SG, How can there be no use of the OP? I think that the line about being burned to a cinder is that moridin and graendal have access to the TP through Surrender to the DO, and are appearing at SG as supplicants. How does that apply to rand? His nemesis, who must stand at SG and fight the DO, Alludra gunna make him a blunderbuss?

Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions used the OP at Shayol Ghul to put the seals in place. It CAN be used there. It's just very dangerous because the DO doesn't like people channeling near him and is liable to lash out.

[nolirion]

Why everyone think the TP is more powerful then the OP ?

I don't say it don't have some useful trick but the only thing that I see that truly differ Op from TP is that TP is destroying the pattern in it's use and OP Modify the pattern to some extent.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Why everyone think the TP is more powerful then the OP ?

I don't say it don't have some useful trick but the only thing that I see that truly differ Op from TP is that TP is destroying the pattern in it's use and OP Modify the pattern to some extent.

 

 

I assumed that the TP is exponentially stronger than the OP. From the Rand PoV we seem to get the feeling that Saidin can't even compare to the pure power rush felt by filling yourself up with the TP.

 

HOWEVER

 

I don't think you're able to form circles with the TP. So the TP is only more powerful on an individual level when a single entity is channeling.

[Mandro]

Why everyone think the TP is more powerful then the OP ?

I don't say it don't have some useful trick but the only thing that I see that truly differ Op from TP is that TP is destroying the pattern in it's use and OP Modify the pattern to some extent.

 

 

I assumed that the TP is exponentially stronger than the OP. From the Rand PoV we seem to get the feeling that Saidin can't even compare to the pure power rush felt by filling yourself up with the TP.

 

HOWEVER

 

I don't think you're able to form circles with the TP. So the TP is only more powerful on an individual level when a single entity is channeling.

 

I repeat myself, I know, but I stand firm on my opinion that in the wielding of callandor Saidar,saidin and the TP will all be used.

 

The reason that people think that the TP is more powerful than the OP is because rand referenced reaching for that source that allowed him to defeat semhirage, wielding that was almost as much as he could hold through the chodan khal. Also, the TP/DO was tapped into to begin with by mierin/lanfier/cyndane because it was a shared power that could be used by both men and women, which sorta insunates a self created circle/ring, whatever it's called. I don't know the theory, truth is RJ held off for so long describing the nature of circles/rings that we will never know. Maybe niald will continue to experiment with circles/rings. I don't think we will get an answer, until there is a publication of the outlines and notes, which I hope doesn't happen. I hope that there is a prequal dating back to the age of legends.

[Terez]

EDIT: Yes, I've just noticed that RJ mentions here that the OP can't be used to Heal insanity. Hmm, I wonder what Nynaeve would say about that? Asking Brandon about it now.

What Nynaeve did wasn't Healing:

 

"I . . . I think I just Healed your madness." Well, she'd done something to it. What she'd done hadn't been any standard Healing, and hadn't even used Healing weaves. But it had worked, it seemed.

Probably only works with the taint because of that weird lattice it puts over the brain, which is removable. Ordinary madness probably originates inside the mind.

[yoniy0]

Why everyone think the TP is more powerful then the OP ?

I don't say it don't have some useful trick but the only thing that I see that truly differ Op from TP is that TP is destroying the pattern in it's use and OP Modify the pattern to some extent.

It's because of the descriptions we got of how it feels when you channel it (for example, Rand in TGS). But you are actually right. Brandon confirmed that while it FEELS so much more powerful and seductive, it's actually not (more powerful, that is. It IS more addictive, and it does more damage to the channeler than the OP). Still, there are some things one can do with it that are impossible with the OP. Whether the opposite is also true we don't know, as of yet.

 

EDIT:

Oh, didn't see you there, Terez.

Probably only works with the taint because of that weird lattice it puts over the brain, which is removable. Ordinary madness probably originates inside the mind.

You're kindda right, but isn't that just too 'quibbly' for your taste? I'm having a hard time stomaching it.

[Ashandarei]

Why everyone think the TP is more powerful then the OP ?

I don't say it don't have some useful trick but the only thing that I see that truly differ Op from TP is that TP is destroying the pattern in it's use and OP Modify the pattern to some extent.

 

While I don't think the TP is more powerful than the OP, I do think it's quite necessary, even crucial, to seal the Bore for a very simple reason. Can't get a massive backlash tainting saidin or saidar or both if you're using the TP since neither half of the OP touches the DO in that scenario. Secondly, it would be more than fitting if the DO was bound in a prison by his own power- how does one fight oneself?

 

 

I repeat myself, I know, but I stand firm on my opinion that in the wielding of callandor Saidar,saidin and the TP will all be used.¹

 

The reason that people think that the TP is more powerful than the OP is because rand referenced reaching for that source that allowed him to defeat semhirage, wielding that was almost as much as he could hold through the chodan khal.²

 

¹ I agree, for the reason mentioned above.

 

² What yoniy0 said:

 

Brandon confirmed that while it FEELS so much more powerful and seductive, it's actually not (more powerful, that is. It IS more addictive, and it does more damage to the channeler than the OP). Still, there are some things one can do with it that are impossible with the OP. Whether the opposite is also true we don't know, as of yet.

 

I'm glad Sanderson cleared that up, I know I certainly read it as "feeling" more sweet and seductive while not necessarily being more powerful. Also, can I get a link to the quote where he says so? That way if this comes up later I'll be able to reference it.