What caused "Jesus Rand"?

[Monte]

Nynaeve learns to heal madness, but when she goes to heal it in Rand, the points of darkness entering his brain are surrounded by light. Okay, no where did THAT come from? Let's leap to the end of TGS...Rand on a mountain, destroying the Choeden Kal, and coming to the realization that he and LLT were not two men and never had been. And now, he by all reports is completely sane, with the memories of both. All well and good, but the madness is still there, in his brain, and this light is protecting him from it?

 

Where did this come from, and why did it happen the moment he destroyed the Choeden Kal? When Rand was absorbing all this energy, did he inadvertently do this himself? Can I get 101 more insane "Creator" theories? Perhaps it was as simple as he DID do it to himself, and the Choeden Kal was just too much temptation in power, or is there something more to this? Discuss!

[randsc]

Careful, now. The suggestion that the character bears any resemblence to Jesus inspires spluttering rage on the part of a vocal minority of posters here.

 

Zen-rand, Gandhi-rand, or simply Rand 2.0 seem to be the politically-correct terms.

[kanucha]

As I recall, it's because Frieza killed Krillin, then Goku--oops, I mean Rand, so exhausted and near death himself, used the pain of loss from his friends death to dig deep into himself and found the mother-load.

 

That's how Rand achieved Super Saijan.

 

 

Maybe I'm thinking of something else...Oh, no, I got it!

 

What happened was Fain called up one of the Worms, and Rand drank from the Water of Life,

 

And how can this be? For he is the Kwisatz Haderach!

[moratcorlm]

I don't know, but these might be helpful:

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/53570-discuss-rand/

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/54417-rands-newfound-abilitypower/

[Monte]

(laughs) I agree Randsc, Zen-Rand it is then! I'll go read those posts and get back to you morat! Magus that's cute and made me glad as all hell I never watched Dragonballz!

 

EDIT: The first thread didn't satisfy me Morat, it didn't discuss how the net of light actually physically manifested itself into Rand's brain...just a lot of talk about True Source.

 

Second thread...much more thought in this one, I like jemron's post quite a bit actually, talking about the temporary healing Ishamael gave LTT at the prologue of the series. It even mentions Rand's new ability to see in one's "soul" as he did with Weiramon, et, which, if you want my opinion, is actually just a Talent of sane LTT (and now Rand), as suggested by the Sanderson Easter Egg threads. But the end conclusion of Rand being the creator himself? Not buying it, was too easily manipulated throughout the series. Champion of the light, I'll buy, but the creator himself, I wouldn't.

 

A lot of conjecture in BOTH threads about true power, and the Creator, which hasn't truly shown itself at all in this series. I'm not saying they are wrong, but so far, there's been no evidence even OF the creator, much less attributing a whole second "divine power" to him/her. I think, given the theme I've been seeing in this book so far, that the Creator actually manifesting himself in the end book is going to be a stretch, for me personally.

[jemron]

I think it nothing more or less than the Light protecting him so that he can "fulfill his purpose/mission."

[Monte]

I think it nothing more or less than the Light protecting him so that he can "fulfill his purpose/mission."

 

That I can buy, an actual physical manifestation the creator occurring, in the form of Rand or otherwise, I'm not so sure about.

[yoshinobu]

Whats wrong with 'Jesus Rand'? Jesus was pretty smart, Rands pretty smart. Jesus liked peace, Rand likes peace. Jesus ends the book riding a white horse with a sword in his mouth and blood on his robes. Rand ends the book riding bella with a sword in his hand and blood all over the place. Not exacly the same but close enough!

[aball]

I've always wondered if the series' climax would involve Rand getting the Creator to finally take a hand and help the Light defeat the Dark One. I don't think at all that Rand is the Creator, but I have wondered if the True Source that he is using comes directly from the Creator rather than being the version that drives the Wheel.

[herid]

Apart from the possibility of a new Divine power/divine connection to the Creator coming into play, the only very vague idea I have is that somehow the fact that when Rand was using Choedan Kal he drew in more of the OP that he could handle. given that Choedan Kal was involved it must have been a lot more.

This could have lead to some strange side effects.

For a while I thought that he created some sort of huge well of saidin in his head but his behavior in Far Madding certainly kills that idea.

 

 

 

I also find the following quote interesting

 

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

When LTT created Dragonmount he didn't use any angreal or sa'angreal. how could it be that he felt anything close to what Rand was feeling with the aid of Choedan Kal?

[threadnecromancer]

This new Rand does not seem particularly Zen like to me.

[Mandro]

I think it has to do with something that I mentioned about food spoilage. All the TV's either caused food spoilage, or maintenance. The pattern normalized once each of them found their place in the patter. Rand during VoG, Perrin during "the Forging of a hammer" I think, and Mat during "half the light of the world."

 

Now all three TV's are turning the pattern only towards the good, that is why wherever rand walks there is sunshine, there is fresh food, their is flavorful tea. Same with Perrin, as he fought the fog during the the rescue of the whitecloaks. We will see what Matt will pull off with fortuona, but the flux in the pattern was caused by demandreds use of indiscriminate balefire and the dark ones touch, but NOW the TV's know their place, and are fully prepared, that is why rand speaks of how it is no longer the time to hide, but to fight.

[kanucha]

Apart from the possibility of a new Divine power/divine connection to the Creator coming into play, the only very vague idea I have is that somehow the fact that when Rand was using Choedan Kal he drew in more of the OP that he could handle. given that Choedan Kal was involved it must have been a lot more.

This could have lead to some strange side effects.

For a while I thought that he created some sort of huge well of saidin in his head but his behavior in Far Madding certainly kills that idea.

 

 

I don't think Far Madding excludes that idea. It sounds like your suggesting Rand may have made a ter'angreal of himself to store saidin. Cadsuane has a power net that stores some saidar, enough to make a gateway, and Rand mentions she may have to use it in Far Madding, no?

 

My money is on some sort of divine power, the counterbalance to the "true power" perhaps.

 

I also find the following quote interesting

 

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

When LTT created Dragonmount he didn't use any angreal or sa'angreal. how could it be that he felt anything close to what Rand was feeling with the aid of Choedan Kal?

 

I think you're equating the feeling of holding that much power into a sensation like carrying a burden. ie: How could LTT's memory know what its like to carry 400 rocks when only carried 200 when he created Dragon Mount?

 

Instead I choose to view more as feeling "bloated" (maybe that's my old age creeping up on me?). He was filled to bursting each time. The sa'angreal gave him a bigger container, but each time it filled to the point of near overflow.

 

 

Another possibility is that he's not talking about how that much power feels, but instead talking about how that much power makes him feel. (ie, god-like, able to break the world on a whim, etc etc)

[Dream]

This new Rand does not seem particularly Zen like to me.

I absolutely agree. Neither does he seem very Jesus or Gandhi-like.

 

So I propose the following:

 

King al'Thor

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The golden ring in his mind protecting him from the barbs of insanity are simply the clarity that Elan Tedronai gifted to Lews Therin in the prologue. Now that the transformation of Rand to Lews Therin (the actual Dragon) is reaching it's final stages it would make sense that the Dragon Reborn starts adopting more and more abilities and characteristics unique to Therin. Mind you, he already stands like Therin and adopts other mannerisms such as rubbing his ear lobe or randomly recounting memories of the AOL as if they were his own memories that only happened yesterday.

[herid]

Apart from the possibility of a new Divine power/divine connection to the Creator coming into play, the only very vague idea I have is that somehow the fact that when Rand was using Choedan Kal he drew in more of the OP that he could handle. given that Choedan Kal was involved it must have been a lot more.

This could have lead to some strange side effects.

For a while I thought that he created some sort of huge well of saidin in his head but his behavior in Far Madding certainly kills that idea.

 

 

I don't think Far Madding excludes that idea. It sounds like your suggesting Rand may have made a ter'angreal of himself to store saidin.

Yes, that's what I meant but I think his behavior in Far Madding does exclude it. He asked Cadsuane to be ready to make a gateway. If he had a well in his head he didn't need her and could have made one himself.

 

 

I also find the following quote interesting

 

He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.

When LTT created Dragonmount he didn't use any angreal or sa'angreal. how could it be that he felt anything close to what Rand was feeling with the aid of Choedan Kal?

 

I think you're equating the feeling of holding that much power into a sensation like carrying a burden. ie: How could LTT's memory know what its like to carry 400 rocks when only carried 200 when he created Dragon Mount?

 

Instead I choose to view more as feeling "bloated" (maybe that's my old age creeping up on me?). He was filled to bursting each time. The sa'angreal gave him a bigger container, but each time it filled to the point of near overflow.

I don't think this explanation works. Rand has been filled to bursting before like when LTT seized saidin from him during the attack on the manor house in Tear. He was also filled to the brink when they traveled to Rhuidean from Tear using a portal stone in SR. I think there were other times too.

 

Another possibility is that he's not talking about how that much power feels, but instead talking about how that much power makes him feel. (ie, god-like, able to break the world on a whim, etc etc)

Ah, that could be.

[Jon Paul]

I believe the protection is given by the Wheel when the Dragon makes his choice between the Light and the Shadow. Think of it somewhat in terms of theologically Protestant views of grace.

[Mulk]

The whole point of how Ishamael/Moridin attacked Rand was to drive him to the point of hopelessness - to make him give up without fighting the Last Battle.

 

From Rand's viewpoint, what caused his change was the realization that he had a reason to go on with it, much like what turns around someone on the point of committing suicide, though that doesn't normally change for someone so dramatically. At that point in time, I believe he destroyed the CK in the knowledge that he didn't need it to win, and he didn't need the lure of the CK to balance the lure of the True Power anymore, but the moment of the destruction wasn't a trigger, just a consequence.

 

As for the light that over/underlays the taint in his brain, I've all manner of thoughts about that, but I'm not really sure about it. Given how little we know about what the taint actually does to people and the nature of the madness it incites, it could be a natural side effect for someone who overcomes their own madness. We'll never know since we have no other people to point to who were affected to that degree that didn't go insane already. Or it could be the Light/the Pattern aiding its chosen champion now that he's on the right course.

[Monte]

It's possible that Rand has undergone a sort of apotheosis where he was able to heal himself? He certainly has a high degree of understanding in ToM.

[udpaco13]

A lot of conjecture in BOTH threads about true power, and the Creator, which hasn't truly shown itself at all in this series. I'm not saying they are wrong, but so far, there's been no evidence even OF the creator, much less attributing a whole second "divine power" to him/her. I think, given the theme I've been seeing in this book so far, that the Creator actually manifesting himself in the end book is going to be a stretch, for me personally.

 

I thought it was excepted that the creator did step in and talk to Rand in tEotW. At the end when he is busting up the trollocs at Tarwin's Gap(Sp). Rand hears a voice from nowhere/everywhere and says something like "Now is not the time for me to help. Wait till the last battle". I do not have the books in front of me so maybe someone can supply the actual quote or a link to a discussion on this voice.

[OneOfTheBand]

My view is that it was influence of another Tavern, Perrin, that caused Saidin to morph into a form that protected Rand from the taint. This is a very unlikely outcome but one which can be caused from the effects of Tavern changing the Laws of probability. I also think that this was the second time Perrin has saved Rand, fulling the prophecies about him.

[johnbranflake]

In TOM, after Rand meets the borderlanders in FM, he says if he had met them only a week before he would have responded to their slaps with balefire. Someone replies that the guardians block the one power, and Rand says something along the lines of that they only block the one power. At first I thought rand meant the True power, but maybe it is this special creator power.

[AvroChris]

 

I thought it was excepted that the creator did step in and talk to Rand in tEotW. At the end when he is busting up the trollocs at Tarwin's Gap(Sp). Rand hears a voice from nowhere/everywhere and says something like "Now is not the time for me to help. Wait till the last battle". I do not have the books in front of me so maybe someone can supply the actual quote or a link to a discussion on this voice.

 

"The Light Blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"

IT IS NOT HERE.

It was not Rand's own thought, making his skull vibrate.

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL

"Where?" He did not want to say it, but he could not stop himself. "Where?"

The haze around him parted, leaving a dome of clear, clean air, ten spans high, walled by billowing smoke and dust. Steps rose before him, each standing alone and unsupported, stretching up into the murk that obscured the sun.

NOT HERE.

 

Voila.

[Monte]

Thanks for the quote, definitely changes my perspective a touch!

[haloun]

as for rand's statement on blasting them with balefire a week earlier... he WAS referring to the TP he was referring to the fact that a week earlier he would have used it. it implies that he knew how far gone he had been, and that he knew what it was he had used earlier as well. it does not imply that he would do so now. as for the jesus/zen/buddha rand... I like to refer to him as jedi rand, especially if you consider that we call him darth rand instead of satan rand, or baal rand, or the like. jedi rand the opposite of darth rand.