Is Rand going to blackmail the rulers of the world?

[randsc]

Not just bargain with them, his fighting the Dark One in exchange for the Dragon's Peace. I think he's planning something a little stronger than that.

 

 

I read his POV this way:

 

He is not offering, "Sign on to the Dragon's Peace. If you do, I will break the seals and face the Dark One."

 

He is intending on breaking the seals regardless.

 

So what he is saying is, "I'm breaking the seals. Sign the Dragon's peace or I won't face the Dark One."

 

He isn't intending just to threaten to leave them defenseless. He's threatening to increase the threat, then leave them defenseless.

 

Pretty ruthless. Maybe Zen Rand isn't so Zen.

[Mulk]

Not just bargain with them, his fighting the Dark One in exchange for the Dragon's Peace. I think he's planning something a little stronger than that.

 

 

I read his POV this way:

 

He is not offering, "Sign on to the Dragon's Peace. If you do, I will break the seals and face the Dark One."

 

He is intending on breaking the seals regardless.

 

So what he is saying is, "I'm breaking the seals. Sign the Dragon's peace or I won't face the Dark One."

 

He isn't intending just to threaten to leave them defenseless. He's threatening to increase the threat, then leave them defenseless.

 

Pretty ruthless. Maybe Zen Rand isn't so Zen.

 

Well, it is a bit ruthless. Given the state of the remaining seals and the fact that they will break eventually it is not a huge ramp up in the threat, but still. However, given the general bent of so many even during the lead up to Tarmon Gai'don, and that the Seanchan feel destined to crawl over the whole continent since the nations still do not work together, it is the best chance not only at getting as many as possible through TG alive, but also surviving the inevitable aftermath. I'm leaving aside the whole will the Seanchan be party to the Peace argument out for now; I know what Aviendha's vision said, but I'm having trouble seeing that as absolute proof of what will happen since Aviendha is and will be working to avoid it.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

He won't have to blackmail anyone. Egwene is doing exactly as Rand knew she would and wanted her to do. He knows whatever "wool-headed" notion he could come up with she would automatically oppose because she is after all Egwene. He plays her into gathering his allies to oppose him breaking the seals. When Rand explains why, and somebody realizes Caemlyn and the borderlands are being are being devastated, all of them are not only going to fall in line out of fear (and the need to be saved) but I think most will because of belief they have in Rand. By this time tomorrow, in the book at least, the holy trinity of badness that is Matt, Perrin, and Rand will be back together and nobody will be able to resist the ta'verenness of them...except Moridin and Darth Demandred. The Aes Sedai at the tower basically pooped in their delicates due to the sheer force of Rand alone. I am really looking forward to Min's PoV when she first sees all three together.

[randsc]

This isn't about Egwene. It's about the other rulers. The Dragon's Peace, being a scheme for the world post-TG, shouldn't be something the Pattern "cares" about one way or the other. Ta'veren don't bend people to their will; they bend them to the will of the Pattern.

[FarShainMael]

By this time tomorrow, in the book at least, the holy trinity of badness that is Matt, Perrin, and Rand will be back together and nobody will be able to resist the ta'verenness of them...except Moridin and Darth Demandred. The Aes Sedai at the tower basically pooped in their delicates due to the sheer force of Rand alone. I am really looking forward to Min's PoV when she first sees all three together.

 

With Callandor blazing in Rand's hand, and the three are one..

[Mats Spare Hat]

I would have thought Zen-Rand resorting to blackmail would be counter to everything he seems to be about, since his epiphany.

 

He goes through this whole enlightened transformation, so he can live/love/laugh/do it right all over, and if he resorts to blackmail in such a way towards the world...would seem kind of pouty? *Rand shoves out lower lip, crosses arms, stamps foot I want it my waaayyy(wwaah) or I'm NOT SAVING THE WORLD.

 

At this point he shouldn't be, or have to, or be written as having to use blackmail. If so than his character growth may as well be tossed straight onto the ole midden heap. Blackmail would just seem so utterly simpleton, to me, for somebody whose like Rand is now.

[nolirion]

It is more like " I am not saving the world so you can screw it again so you sign that and that the end of it. "

[AshaShan]

I would have thought Zen-Rand resorting to blackmail would be counter to everything he seems to be about, since his epiphany.

 

He goes through this whole enlightened transformation, so he can live/love/laugh/do it right all over, and if he resorts to blackmail in such a way towards the world...would seem kind of pouty? *Rand shoves out lower lip, crosses arms, stamps foot I want it my waaayyy(wwaah) or I'm NOT SAVING THE WORLD.

 

At this point he shouldn't be, or have to, or be written as having to use blackmail. If so than his character growth may as well be tossed straight onto the ole midden heap. Blackmail would just seem so utterly simpleton, to me, for somebody whose like Rand is now.

 

Except Rand already used blackmail on the Borderlander monarchs. His terms were, swear to me or I wont let your Aes Sedai learn Traveling. Its a blunt force instrument to be sure but any fuedal system operates on a give and get theme. If they want Rand's help or protection then he seems to feel they owe him something in return.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I would have thought Zen-Rand resorting to blackmail would be counter to everything he seems to be about, since his epiphany.

 

He goes through this whole enlightened transformation, so he can live/love/laugh/do it right all over, and if he resorts to blackmail in such a way towards the world...would seem kind of pouty? *Rand shoves out lower lip, crosses arms, stamps foot I want it my waaayyy(wwaah) or I'm NOT SAVING THE WORLD.

 

At this point he shouldn't be, or have to, or be written as having to use blackmail. If so than his character growth may as well be tossed straight onto the ole midden heap. Blackmail would just seem so utterly simpleton, to me, for somebody whose like Rand is now.

 

Except Rand already used blackmail on the Borderlander monarchs. His terms were, swear to me or I wont let your Aes Sedai learn Traveling. Its a blunt force instrument to be sure but any fuedal system operates on a give and get theme. If they want Rand's help or protection then he seems to feel they owe him something in return.

 

Rand doesn't use blackmail with the Borderlanders; He neither menaces them, nor does he hold some bit of embarrassing tertiary information to coerce them into doing what he wants. Give & Get is completely different than Give because I'll kick your rear, or Give or I'll show everybody you screw goats.

[David Selig]

Rand's offer to the Borderland monarchs was basically "Swear to me or you'll stay here with your armies while your countries get attacked by huge Trollocs hordes". It wasn't technically blackmail, but he didn't give them much of a choice either. It is not that different from demanding a peace deal of the world monarchs at Merrilor.

[ironchefofmunchies]

This isn't about Egwene. It's about the other rulers. The Dragon's Peace, being a scheme for the world post-TG, shouldn't be something the Pattern "cares" about one way or the other. Ta'veren don't bend people to their will; they bend them to the will of the Pattern.

 

 

You don't think the Pattern cares the form the world takes after this battle? This may be the "Last Battle" to all our characters but eternity is a VERY long time. I'm pretty sure the Pattern doesn't just stop caring at the end of the next book what happens.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Rand's offer to the Borderland monarchs was basically "Swear to me or you'll stay here with your armies while your countries get attacked by huge Trollocs hordes". It wasn't technically blackmail, but he didn't give them much of a choice either. It is not that different from demanding a peace deal of the world monarchs at Merrilor.

 

 

And if the answer to Rand's demand(s) were/was no? Is he really that much of a dope to allow the destruction of existence, not save the world, because people might not want to go along with what he wants?

 

The way Rand is portrayed now, if he ends up being written as using blackmail to achieve his ends in AMoL, I think it'll be a shitshow cop-out on the part of the author.

 

For real! He's the fully realized Dragon Reborn, light made flesh, all epiphany'd out and legit, all the knowledge he needs to succeed, with right on his side and the power and ability to inspire his followers, and draw support to his cause through righteous need. You should WANT to follow him, and to me, at this point in his character development, he should be able to convince any given person of this rather than resorting to shady tactics.

 

If blackmail's the tool of choice than he may as well have stayed Dark-Rand. I do agree with the not much of a choice point, but that's not blackmail.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Not just bargain with them, his fighting the Dark One in exchange for the Dragon's Peace. I think he's planning something a little stronger than that.

 

 

I read his POV this way:

 

He is not offering, "Sign on to the Dragon's Peace. If you do, I will break the seals and face the Dark One."

 

He is intending on breaking the seals regardless.

 

So what he is saying is, "I'm breaking the seals. Sign the Dragon's peace or I won't face the Dark One."

 

He isn't intending just to threaten to leave them defenseless. He's threatening to increase the threat, then leave them defenseless.

 

Pretty ruthless. Maybe Zen Rand isn't so Zen.

 

I took that scene a bit differently. I got a vibe of "I don't really need you, but you've been preparing for this for three thousand years, and this is kind of your job. If you want to come, you're coming on MY terms. If not, I'll just fight without you and you can explain to everyone exactly why you weren't there."

 

It's not exactly holding hands singing "Kumbaya," but I see the reasoning behind this. Part of the reason that the world is such a mess is that the people in charge are always trying to gain more power. By very clearly laying out their position in Rand's army (rather low) he is removing all room for stabbing each other in the back to gain power and influence.

 

If he was hinting at what you are suggesting, I think that it was a bluff the whole time. The Dark One intends to destroy everything. Rand is a part of everything. I think they'd end up fighting whether Rand wanted to or not. I'm sure Rand knows this.

[randsc]

Not just bargain with them, his fighting the Dark One in exchange for the Dragon's Peace. I think he's planning something a little stronger than that.

 

 

I read his POV this way:

 

He is not offering, "Sign on to the Dragon's Peace. If you do, I will break the seals and face the Dark One."

 

He is intending on breaking the seals regardless.

 

So what he is saying is, "I'm breaking the seals. Sign the Dragon's peace or I won't face the Dark One."

 

He isn't intending just to threaten to leave them defenseless. He's threatening to increase the threat, then leave them defenseless.

 

Pretty ruthless. Maybe Zen Rand isn't so Zen.

 

I took that scene a bit differently. I got a vibe of "I don't really need you, but you've been preparing for this for three thousand years, and this is kind of your job. If you want to come, you're coming on MY terms. If not, I'll just fight without you and you can explain to everyone exactly why you weren't there."

 

It's not exactly holding hands singing "Kumbaya," but I see the reasoning behind this. Part of the reason that the world is such a mess is that the people in charge are always trying to gain more power. By very clearly laying out their position in Rand's army (rather low) he is removing all room for stabbing each other in the back to gain power and influence.

 

If he was hinting at what you are suggesting, I think that it was a bluff the whole time. The Dark One intends to destroy everything. Rand is a part of everything. I think they'd end up fighting whether Rand wanted to or not. I'm sure Rand knows this.

 

Ummm, the scene I am describing hasn't yet occurred. It will occur at Merilor.

 

I agree with your interpretation of the scene with the Borderlanders.

[Shimmer]

As much as I am totally against the whole notion of blackmail, it's a crude but effective tool for Rand against those stubborn, woolheaded rulers *cough* Amyrlin *cough*.

[MichaelOfTheWhite]

It could be that an old part of LTT liked the idea of presenting his plan to 'the hall' - in this case, the ramshackle, slightly backward White Tower. He did so before in the AOL and the women of the Hall came up with a different plan, which caused a lot of harm.

He is probably prepared for this now and feels comfortable he can accomplish what he needs to with ashaman and dragonsworn AS - ie, without the WT.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

It seems that if Rand is going to enforce or try to enforce Dragon's Peace on everyone, then the entirety of the Avi sequence from TGS was foreshadowing for her preventing or in someway altering Rand's plans.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

If RJ intended to return a bit to the Eotw roots of paying homage to Lotr, I can quite see it coming that he will act akin to Feanor in Tolkien's Silmarillion. Hold an impassioned speech and have the august assembly swear to him to defeat the Dark One.

[KefkaPalazzo]

Not just bargain with them, his fighting the Dark One in exchange for the Dragon's Peace. I think he's planning something a little stronger than that.

 

 

I read his POV this way:

 

He is not offering, "Sign on to the Dragon's Peace. If you do, I will break the seals and face the Dark One."

 

He is intending on breaking the seals regardless.

 

So what he is saying is, "I'm breaking the seals. Sign the Dragon's peace or I won't face the Dark One."

 

He isn't intending just to threaten to leave them defenseless. He's threatening to increase the threat, then leave them defenseless.

 

Pretty ruthless. Maybe Zen Rand isn't so Zen.

 

I took that scene a bit differently. I got a vibe of "I don't really need you, but you've been preparing for this for three thousand years, and this is kind of your job. If you want to come, you're coming on MY terms. If not, I'll just fight without you and you can explain to everyone exactly why you weren't there."

 

It's not exactly holding hands singing "Kumbaya," but I see the reasoning behind this. Part of the reason that the world is such a mess is that the people in charge are always trying to gain more power. By very clearly laying out their position in Rand's army (rather low) he is removing all room for stabbing each other in the back to gain power and influence.

 

If he was hinting at what you are suggesting, I think that it was a bluff the whole time. The Dark One intends to destroy everything. Rand is a part of everything. I think they'd end up fighting whether Rand wanted to or not. I'm sure Rand knows this.

 

Ummm, the scene I am describing hasn't yet occurred. It will occur at Merilor.

 

I agree with your interpretation of the scene with the Borderlanders.

Sorry, misread the post.

[Mr Ares]

If Rand doesn't face Shai'tan, he and everyone he cares about dies. Therefore he has precious little to bargain with. "Don't agree, and I won't do this thing that I actually want to do anyway to stop the women I love being killed." Not very convincing. On the other hand, it could be about what he intends to do after TG. If he gets them all to agree to the Dragon's Peace, then he doesn't need to go a little bit Hawkwing, conquer everyone, forge an Empire and force peace on them at sword point. "Peace with you as King/Queen, or peace without you, but peace either way." That's a threat that might resonate with those in power, and is far more credible than refusing to help at TG. He could even agree to abdicate if they all agree.

[asha man]

I don't think blackmail is exactly the right word ("the act of threatening to reveal substantially true information about a person to the public, a family member, or associates unless a demand is met"). This is really hard core bargaining, and (finally!) Rand has realized that he's in a position of power (without needing to threaten to kill everyone).

 

To Rand this will just be another sort of battle, and it's certainly not immoral to use your advantages when you're trying to convince a bunch of half-wits to do what's in their own best interests. (Even if you do bluff a bit about not fighting in the Last Battle.)

[randsc]

If Rand doesn't face Shai'tan, he and everyone he cares about dies. Therefore he has precious little to bargain with. "Don't agree, and I won't do this thing that I actually want to do anyway to stop the women I love being killed." Not very convincing. On the other hand, it could be about what he intends to do after TG. If he gets them all to agree to the Dragon's Peace, then he doesn't need to go a little bit Hawkwing, conquer everyone, forge an Empire and force peace on them at sword point. "Peace with you as King/Queen, or peace without you, but peace either way." That's a threat that might resonate with those in power, and is far more credible than refusing to help at TG. He could even agree to abdicate if they all agree.

 

Except, of course, that we have a Rand POV where he specifically indicates that he has a price for facing the Dark One. Not a price for promising not to conquor the world, a price for facing the Dark One.

[Mr Ares]

I don't think blackmail is exactly the right word

Would you prefer extortion? The x makes it sound cool.

 

If Rand doesn't face Shai'tan, he and everyone he cares about dies. Therefore he has precious little to bargain with. "Don't agree, and I won't do this thing that I actually want to do anyway to stop the women I love being killed." Not very convincing. On the other hand, it could be about what he intends to do after TG. If he gets them all to agree to the Dragon's Peace, then he doesn't need to go a little bit Hawkwing, conquer everyone, forge an Empire and force peace on them at sword point. "Peace with you as King/Queen, or peace without you, but peace either way." That's a threat that might resonate with those in power, and is far more credible than refusing to help at TG. He could even agree to abdicate if they all agree.

Except, of course, that we have a Rand POV where he specifically indicates that he has a price for facing the Dark One. Not a price for promising not to conquor the world, a price for facing the Dark One.

Doesn't change the fact that he still has nothing to bargain with. He doesn't face Shai'tan, he dies, so does Elayne, so does Min, so does Aviendha, so does Tam, so does Perrin, so does Mat, and so on.

[David Selig]

Rand would be bluffing, certainly, but to quote his own thoughts on this "Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational". If you a monarch in Randland, would you be willing to risk literally the fate of the world by calling the bluff of a guy who was close to insanity and developed quite a temper before VoG?

 

If the peace deal doesn't include the Seanchan, which seems likely for now, since they have no representatives at Merrilor, I don't think Rand needs the threat really. He already has some degree of control over most monarchs. The Seanchan threat and the need for dealing with the aftermath of the Last Battle would be strong incentives for agreeing to a long term peace deal. Illian is Rand's, Tear too, the Borderlander rulers apparently swore to him and they are used to keeping peace with anyone but the Shadow anyway. Elayne has enough on her plate with Andor and Cairhien and would probably will be happy to get a chance to consolidate her power, establish closer ties between Andor and Cairhien and prepare for the Seanchans. The monarchs of the smaller and weaker nations like Mayene and Ghealdan should be happy with the deal too.

 

The Seanchan though were part of the Dragon's peace in Avi's vision though. If they are somehow involved in the peace deal, this would make things way more trickier and more complicated and Rand's threat may be the only way to convince Egwene and the other doubters of the necessity of such a deal.

[Ataxia]

The Seanchan will run into Mat at the tower and be brought to the Fields. That solves the Dragons Peace vision Avi had. She'll convince most of the Wise Women to follow suit as well. Some wont, but I think most will accept the leaf after the battle ends.

 

The biggest problem will be Egwene and her big army of channelers. Plus, she wont agree to peace with the Seanchan if they dont give up their slavery.

 

I dont think Rand will really have to blackmail many of the leaders. Perrin and his group will follow, and so will Illian/Tear. Who is there to stand against him besides Egwene/Elayne? I honestly dont think Elayne will give a crap once she sees her city burning, so that leaves the White Tower. It would be hilarious to see the Seanchan/WT agreeing with each other and becoming allies to stop Rand.