The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[randsc]

The author STATED that Rand was a Messiah figure, so even if one were capable of ignoring all of the clues in the text, which I doubt any adult who has done any significant amount of reading could do...

 

I don't excuse Rand's faults; never have. Just because little Egwene fan-bois are incapable of seeing her criticized without whining, "You's jus' saying that 'cause you <3 Rand!" doesn't make it so.

 

If you don't see Rand as the Messiah figure of this epic, you are missing the point, very badly.

 

As for emotional attachment, all I can do is laugh. These are characters in a series of books. That's all. I'M not the one who, if my favored character should prevail at the Fields of Merilor, will single-handedly exhaust the nation's entire supply of Kleenex and hand lotion.

 

"Single-handedly!" Ha! I made a pun!

[Majsju]

A Messiah figure does not necessarily mean being a carbon copy of the bloke in christian mythology.

[randsc]

A Messiah figure does not necessarily mean being a carbon copy of the bloke in christian mythology.

 

Quite right. The Jesus thing was a metaphor.

 

Although it must be said, this particular Messiah figure does have a whole lot in common with the bloke in Christian mythology. The stigmata being one obvious example, and I suspect we will see a death and resurrection as well.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I look at it more as, up until very recently, to most people the thought of the Dragon Reborn probably terrifies a great many people. As readers we're afforded a relative omniscient point of view, we know Rand's fine and dandy now. But, to joe-shmoe randlander, you could stand a good chance of crapping your pants at the thought of what the DR's all about.

 

...The thought of a second breaking of the world, when for all you know the Dragon's pretty much gone in the head already, to a Randlander is probably enough to freak you out and support the White Tower.

 

I would support Rand, but I know about everything he's gone through, is going through, as well as what needs to happen - as a reader. To somebody who doesn't have such an informed opinion, joe-shmoe randlander, I could totally understand supporting the Amyrlin.

 

As a reader: Rand

As joe-shmoe randlander: The Amyrlin

[Majsju]

A Messiah figure does not necessarily mean being a carbon copy of the bloke in christian mythology.

 

Quite right. The Jesus thing was a metaphor.

 

Although it must be said, this particular Messiah figure does have a whole lot in common with the bloke in Christian mythology. The stigmata being one obvious example, and I suspect we will see a death and resurrection as well.

 

Yeah, Jesus is one of many mythological creatures Rand draws upon. I would say the missing hand is a stronger connection to Tyr than this stigmata is to Jesus. And death/resurrection was around in mythology long before the jesus myth was invented.

And of course, according to RJ, Rand is a lot more inspired by Arthur Pendragon than Jesus.

 

So, I would be very careful trying to use christian mythology whan making any assumptions about what will happen. RJ borrowed the things he felt would be useful in creating a good story.

[randsc]

OK, so what? The point remains that Rand is a Messiah figure. He's not Jesus, and he's not Tyr. He contains elements of both, and others besides.

 

The fact remains that the "bah humbug, he's no messiah" attitude is countertextual.

[Hadilmir]

The fact remains that the "bah humbug, he's no messiah" attitude is countertextual.

Didn't we just spend the entire last book establishing that the Dragon Reborn makes mistakes just like everyone else? Can you recall any messiah figure that comes literally within seconds of destroying reality?

 

*I agree that Rand is a Messiah figure, but I don't think that can be used to predict anything since he deviates from that line often.

[Phoenix8514]

I think it is obvious Rand has similarities to Jesus and a Messiah figure. First, he is destined to save the world. That is what many Messiah figures do. Next, I think the similarities to Jesus are easily seen. His palms were marked just like Jesus had the nails driven in. Rand has the never healing wounds in his side. Jesus was stabbed in the side with a spear. That being said, Rand also has characteristics from other mythical figures. Tyr being one of them.

[anotherfingolfin]

I don't see why the parallels to Christian myth draw so much ire. Haven't comparisons been made towards other religions/mythologies been made by readers in the past? Meh, the way I see it, the Jesus analogy has less to do with predicting his behaviour, and more to do with explaining the Dragons place in the religion/mythology/gimmeabetterword of the society in Randland.

Personally the similarity with Vishnu jumps up at me first, if that Hindu mythology reference isn't lost on people.

[moratcorlm]

Nobody has a problem with the knowledge that Christian mythology went into the character of Rand; Rand certainly has aspects of Jesus, just as he has some of Krishna (and Vishnu generally, as you note, though more Shiva), and King Arthur, and Thor, and a whole list of others. It's the tendency of some of his fans to romanticize those elements into declamations like this:

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

that irks. To them, Rand doesn't just have messianic sources, and his story is not just one that will leave memories that become legend that fades to messianic myth, but he will turn out to be a messianic hero, actually more perfect than the other characters.

 

I don't have the manuscript, of course, or knowledge of Jordan's plans for the ending, and so it's perfectly possible that AMOL will go that way, but I stand by my statement that making Rand into that sort of being would be out of keeping with the themes of WOT, and a cheap resolution to the story.

[Mandro]

as for religious or mythical metaphors, we have 3 of the major war gods from norse mythology in place. Oden, Thor and Tyr.

 

The messianic aspects, like the sun appearing once rand completed the transition in VoG aren't unique to rand. Note that there are 3 places where food either does or doesn't spoil (actually four, but that is an answer that hasn't been given) and that is around Rand, Matt and Perrin, there is actually an insinuation in ToM when Perrin is collecting new followers. I think that in LoC the "unleash the balefire" thing is what is allowing for the bubles of chaos. The Ta'Verin (sorry for spelling) have to find a way to not just shape the pattern, but find HOW they shape the pattern, I think all 3 succeeded in that. Rand with VoG and Matt in the Tower of Ghenji (thus owens winning snakes and foxes) and Perrin when he accepted being a lord when he forged mjolinar. Rand Tyr, Matt oden, Perrin Thor.

[David Selig]

If there's one thing which has been made clear time and time again in this series, is that the messiah figure in Randland is also prone to mistakes and is very far from perfection. After all he was seconds away from destroying the Pattern. His previous reincarnation is better known for starting the Breaking of the World and killing his family than for sealing the Bore. For most people in Randland, the Dragon is as much of destroyer than a saviour, and he's widely feared. The attitude "he's the messiah, so he must be right and followed unquestionably" is foreign to most Randlanders when it comes to the Dragon. Few people follow him willingly, and even most of them question him a lot.

 

I think both Egwene and Rand are in the wrong here. Egwene for having no plan past "I have to stop Rand" and for gathering all these armies at one place thus leaving most of Randland exposed (don't see what good the armies will do in convincing Rand anyway), and Rand for being ready to break the seals without having worked up a plan on what to do at Shayol Ghul after that (as far as we know). I know the food is rotting, the Pattern is weakening and all that so the Light side has to take a decisive action soon, but they still have a bit more time to work on a better plan for the decisive strike.

[randsc]

It really has nothing to do with whether or not Rand is infallible. He's not, that's clear.

 

Basically, the options are:

 

Rand tries to save world, succeeds, world is saved.

 

Rand tries to save world, fails, world is destroyed.

 

Rand does not try to save world, leaves task to annoying twits who think they know better, world is destroyed.

 

The only CHANCE for salvation in WOT world is the Dragon. The people, while they fear the Dragon and what he may do, KNOW this. They don't BELIEVE it, they KNOW it.

 

So, would the people follow their only hope? I believe they would, no matter how bad he seemed. It would be that man falling from a cliff, grabbing at a tuft of grass, that Asmodean talked about.

 

Egwene's failing isn't in opposing Rand. It is made quite clear in the text that she is caught up in his ta'veren influence and doing what she is supposed to do. Her fault is in not using the considerable resources at her disposal to uncover information that may be helpful. Instead, she's devoting the Browns to her political schemes.

 

In any case, I am quite confident that those who think that Rand proving to be a Messiah figure would be a "BS ending" are going to be very disappointed. Jordan said as much, frequently.

[Mandro]

Egwene is a self righteous idiot. Nyneave has hatched more plots that lead towards the success of tarman gaiden than equene has, Egwene only secured her own power in opposition to the man she once wished to be betrothed to. She is fundamentaly a traitor. In a way, she represents the treason of the women during the FIRST war against the shadow when the women couldn't suly themselves when the men fought. In ONE way, I think the first victim of Matt's weapons tar valon, I actually hope so, in some ways, but that won't happen.

 

I sorta thought since TSR that he was building towards Nynaeve being the. . . whatserface from Manetherin. The queen who drew so deep to fight the shadow after her aemon died?

 

That's another thought, Maybe nynaeve and alivia , whoever (I think nynaeve will control the channeling on callendor) force rand to draw over much through rand, because it is RAND who will be focusing and rand who will be suffering, so that nynaeve can help Lan, and fight the shadow there? Just as Rand drew through Nynaeve overmuch in "with the chodan khal" but he needed her, and he trusted her no matter the danger.

 

That's an interesting thought, I will have to think that out a bit. But I am FIRMLY believing that rand will suffer, and only nyneave can heal him, and will. Rand will live, and more than that, I think he will live whole. no missing hand, no "old scars."

 

That is my prediction.

[Mandro]

Yeah overall this is kinda a lame question.

 

"3K years of prophecy requiring the dragon, all of which have actually occured, or a girl who is petulent and self righteous." I go with the prophecies.

[Mandro]

True story, I only read the books because I saw "dragon" in the cover. Got hooked. But I was 10 at the time. this series has streached a long time.

[randsc]

While I have a well deserved reputation for despising Egwene, I don't thin kshe is a traitor for opposing Rand in this.

 

If you read the confrontation scene again, you will see that Egwene is clearly under ta'veren influence. She thinks she is immune, but she's nnot. The pattern is just demanding something different of her than of the other Aes Sedai. The dizziness she feels is the effect of ta'veren influence.

 

She's opposing Rand because the Pattern requires it. Furthermore, Rand WANTS it, as is made clear in his POV at the end.

 

Where she is wrong is in not trying to plan or research the issue herself. The Whites and Browns should be doing nothing else. For those who say that she needs to plan for the world after the Last Battle, I say fine. But if you don't contribute to the plan for the Last Battle, you forfeit your right to criticise the plan for the last battle.

[Hopefire]

The messianic aspects, like the sun appearing once rand completed the transition in VoG aren't unique to rand. Note that there are 3 places where food either does or doesn't spoil (actually four, but that is an answer that hasn't been given) and that is around Rand, Matt and Perrin, there is actually an insinuation in ToM when Perrin is collecting new followers. I think that in LoC the "unleash the balefire" thing is what is allowing for the bubles of chaos. The Ta'Verin (sorry for spelling) have to find a way to not just shape the pattern, but find HOW they shape the pattern, I think all 3 succeeded in that. Rand with VoG and Matt in the Tower of Ghenji (thus owens winning snakes and foxes) and Perrin when he accepted being a lord when he forged mjolinar. Rand Tyr, Matt oden, Perrin Thor.

 

Food spoils around Perrin; it may be spoiling around Mat, if Mat were left to his own devices, but he was in the vicinity of Elayne for most of TOM. I think that I recall food spoiling around Mat in either TOM or TGS, but since I can't find a page and I can't recall exactly where, I'm going to attribute lack of spoilage around Mat to the combined effect of Mat and Elayne both being present.

 

[Faile] noted with displeasure the bunch of wild scallions beside the pathway had spoiled in the moments since she'd seen them last, their stalks melted and runny, as if they'd been rotting in the sun for weeks. These spoilings had begun only recently inside of camp, but by reports, it happened far more frequently out in the countryside.

Towers of Midnight, page 234.

 

While Perrin appears to reduce the ability of the Dark One to take action against the world directly through spoilage, he doesn't appear to stop it entirely. Additionally, he isn't causing the clouds to break, trees to bloom, etc. Neither is Mat. The way that I interpret it is that Perrin is able to keep things normal through luck working in his favor; Rand is actively bending the Pattern towards the best possible outcomes via his presence.

 

There is one additional case that's slightly puzzling, the sunshine and good food found on page 509 and 510 of TOM. While the good food is attributed to being from Caemlyn, that doesn't explain the sunshine; the easiest explanation is that while the women are having their conversation, Rand is puttering about somewhere in Tar Valon. An alternative is Nynaeve's strengthened commitment to her ideals over her idols is giving her the same cloud-breaking and light strengthening power Rand and his women have,

[randsc]

I dunno, I don't think Rand's girls have been clearly shown to have the power to prevent spoilage.

[moratcorlm]

In any case, I am quite confident that those who think that Rand proving to be a Messiah figure would be a "BS ending" are going to be very disappointed. Jordan said as much, frequently.

He said it once.

Ishamael: How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus is Rand?

RJ: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "Messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Something else he said:

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

[randsc]

In any case, I am quite confident that those who think that Rand proving to be a Messiah figure would be a "BS ending" are going to be very disappointed. Jordan said as much, frequently.

He said it once.

Ishamael: How much of Jesus Christ is there in Rand? We have the wounded palms, side wound, crown of swords...How representational of Jesus is Rand?

RJ: Rand has some elements of Jesus Christ, yes. But he is intended more to be a general "Messiah figure." An archetype such as Arthur, rather than a manifestation of Jesus Christ in any way.

Something else he said:

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again.

 

 

I heard him say it with my own ears at a signing at the Harvard Coop, and he said it on his blog, and in one of the recorded interviews. That is at least three times.

[moratcorlm]

By all means feel free to bug terez to update the interview database with that in mind, then. What precisely did you hear him say?

[randsc]

I don't recall the exact question. It was an Indian guy, asking about whether Rand was based on some Indian deity, I don't recall which. I think the exact response, or at least very close, was, "There is some of that, certainly. Rand is in the tradition of Messiah figures broadly." Or something very close.

 

Are we really pretending that the interview database captures Jordan's every word? That's not true, and would be creepy if it was.

[moratcorlm]

Don't be silly. What we're pretending is that it is the public record of what Jordan had to say about the series, and as such is a preferred reference on such things, unless the other quotations are specifically cited. And yes, obviously he'll have given the same stock answers to similar questions at multiple signings, etc. What would be interesting would be use of the word 'messiah' in different or larger contexts, and Jordan doesn't seem to have expounded on it in any way which I'd consider your argument to be a deduction from.

 

Are you going to reply to the second half of your quotation in #121? What we know is that Rand's blood on Shayol Ghul will win this Last Battle and allow the world to move to the Fourth Age. We know that various messianic traditions, among other myths, were deconstructed to create Rand's character. We know that the Dragon is in some way one with the Pattern, or as you put it to slyly imply metaphysical knowledge, "the living embodiment of their metaphysics". What basis do you have to believe that he has special knowledge, or that he will become a specially privileged actor: that in essence the many thousands of pages of an ensemble cast and the themes of balance and of the tenuousness of information will be cast aside for The Rand Show?

[randsc]

Don't be silly. What we're pretending is that it is the public record of what Jordan had to say about the series, and as such is a preferred reference on such things, unless the other quotations are specifically cited. And yes, obviously he'll have given the same stock answers to similar questions at multiple signings, etc. What would be interesting would be use of the word 'messiah' in different or larger contexts, and Jordan doesn't seem to have expounded on it in any way which I'd consider your argument to be a deduction from.

 

Are you going to reply to the second half of your quotation in #121? What we know is that Rand's blood on Shayol Ghul will win this Last Battle and allow the world to move to the Fourth Age. We know that various messianic traditions, among other myths, were deconstructed to create Rand's character. We know that the Dragon is in some way one with the Pattern, or as you put it to slyly imply metaphysical knowledge, "the living embodiment of their metaphysics". What basis do you have to believe that he has special knowledge, or that he will become a specially privileged actor: that in essence the many thousands of pages of an ensemble cast and the themes of balance and of the tenuousness of information will be cast aside for The Rand Show?

 

Really?

 

What basis do we have for believing Rand has special knowledge (I assuming we are defining "special" as meaning, "knowledge not available to other characters?)? It seems to me that the books may have mentioned, once or twice, a 400 year old Aes Sedai with direct personal experience with confronting the Dark One, now resident in Rand's head.

 

What basis do we have for believing him to be a "specially privileged actor?" Other than 3000 years of prophecy, now fulfilled, that say so?

 

Many other characters will make important, even vital, contributions to the defeat of the Dark One. But as far as we know, ONE character is essential to that effort.

 

I guess we'll all just have to RAFO.