The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[Phoenix8514]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

More like your city if you live in Caemlyn. The people on the Light's side can't just stick their heads in the ground and hope it will be ok.

[randsc]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

[Elan Tedronai]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war Get it?

[Phoenix8514]

The seals have to go. No amount of metaphorical cumming gum and duct tape is going to work. The foundation is too weak. The rubble has to be cleared away and something new created.

[randsc]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war

 

And full-blown war, now, while the Light-siders still have the capacity to fight, is the best available option. There are no good choices on the table; the requirement is to select the least bad.

 

It's not like opening the Bore leads to the immediate destruction of the Universe. How long did the War of Power last?

[Phoenix8514]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war

 

And full-blown war, now, while the Light-siders still have the capacity to fight, is the best available option. There are no good choices on the table; the requirement is to select the least bad.

 

It's not like opening the Bore leads to the immediate destruction of the Universe. How long did the War of Power last?

 

I think it lasted ten years. Anyway, I would say there is a full-blown war now. The Shadow is advancing. The Pattern itself is falling apart. Food is going bad all over the place and people sprouting bugs. I mentioned it in an earlier post, but with the seals gone the Dark One is still trapped. Even at the height of the War of Power he was never completely free.

[randsc]

Exactly. And in any case, this is no time to cower in your closet, sucking your thumb and wetting yourself, thinking, "There's FIRE out there! I'm not coming out until someone figures out how to put the fire out!"

[Elan Tedronai]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war

 

And full-blown war, now, while the Light-siders still have the capacity to fight, is the best available option. There are no good choices on the table; the requirement is to select the least bad.

 

It's not like opening the Bore leads to the immediate destruction of the Universe. How long did the War of Power last?

 

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

 

 

The opening of bore will lead to a full blown war. Ofcourse it took 10 years for the shadown to finally start beating the shit of the light in the war of power. And i don't think sanderson or jordan intended tarmon gaidon to be another 10 year war. So yeah, the universe would not end if the bore was opened tomorrow. But you can expect all manner of the shadow to start coming out of the woodwork.

 

May be that's where the series is headed. Fight with no plan, and then just when shaitan and his crew are about to win, an eureka moment appears and bang! The bore is sealed up.

 

 

That would be inline with jordan's one KO punch from the forces of light. Too bad it's just sucks as a reader.

[randsc]

Oh, gee Elan, I don't know. How about the capacity to stand upright? How many of the Light-side soldiers will still be able to fight in, say, six months when their food spoils before they can eat it?

 

She's been given a full month to plan. Where's the plan?

 

I won't lie to you. If you try to make it out of your house when it is burning, you may die.

 

If you hide in your closet, you WILL die.

[Fel]

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

Lack of food has a way of hurting soldiers ability to fight wars. Right now, food seems to only be good in the immediate vicinity of the three farmboys and it is getting worse. See "Apples First" to see the despair on the land. i thought that chapter was amazingly well written.

 

Also, the hordes of trollocs overrunning Camelyn and the borderlands probably will cause a major disruption in the capacity of the light's forces as they ravage the land/people.

[Phoenix8514]

It's also important to note that many of the import Light-side leaders may not be here even a month from now. The Shadow has issued find and destory orders for Perrin and Mat. Mat is argubaly the best general they have at the moment and if he dies before they attack it is not good. Dozens of Aes Sedia might be captured by the Seanchan. The Black Tower is a complete mess. All of this is weaking the Light's ability to fight. They have to move while they still have the strength.

[Elan Tedronai]

continuing bad analogies randsc i see. The forces of light were able to fight for 10 years in the war of power but you are afraid the current lot won't be able to fight for more than six months because of the possibility of spoilt food? lol. give me a break.

 

a more accurate analogy would be,

 

an unkillable arsonist who is buried completely save for his arm. He's throwing molotov cocktails randomly since he can't see. Every once in a while those bottles happen to fall outside my garden. It burns a few grass here and there before i use my hose on it.

 

Now the way to stop those cocktails flying about is to get rid of that throwing arm and bury that arsonist completely. That would mean getting rid of the poor quality sand i used to bury him when he was free from the waste up before. That would mean he would be able to see, have the ability to use both hands, and rally his supporters to bomb more houses.

 

At the moment though, my house is not burning.

[randsc]

That might be the worst analogy I've ever read.

 

Never mind, this discussion is hopless. You're right, Egwene is perfectly wonderful, and it was nice of Robert Jordan to create the girl you're going to marry one day.

[Elan Tedronai]

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

Lack of food has a way of hurting soldiers ability to fight wars. Right now, food seems to only be good in the immediate vicinity of the three farmboys and it is getting worse. See "Apples First" to see the despair on the land. i thought that chapter was amazingly well written.

 

Also, the hordes of trollocs overrunning Camelyn and the borderlands probably will cause a major disruption in the capacity of the light's forces as they ravage the land/people.

 

 

The food thing is overblown. people survived for 10 years in the war of power when shaitan has huge influence on the world.

 

As for the trollocs part, please! Trollocs and fades are irrelavant here. Rand alone destroyed thousands of them in maradon. You have aes sedai, ashaman, wiseones, sea folk, all sorts of sangreal, angreal not including the horn of valere in the lights armoury. SHadowsspawn are irrelevant.

 

 

The series will end at shayol ghul. Not in camelyn

[Elan Tedronai]

That might be the worst analogy I've ever read.

 

Never mind, this discussion is hopless. You're right, Egwene is perfectly wonderful, and it was nice of Robert Jordan to create the girl you're going to marry one day.

 

 

I already knew this discussion was hopeless the moment you brought words like 'christian metaphysics' and jesus into it.

[Jon Paul]

If I was a member of the nobility I would side with the Amyrlin. I mean this Dragon fellow is taking an awful big risk. What happens if he screws it up and I cannot go on my summer ride with Lord Whoever's daughter? And I'd likely have a few card games lined up to win back some money I lost the last game me and my fellow lordlings had. Not to mention that the Dragon's not going to be around forever, he's got to die for me isn't he? Might as well keep in the good graces of the woman who will be calling the shots after the saviour of existence does his thing.

 

If I was from the lower classes I would side with the Lord Dragon. I mean come on.. I'm a farmer just outside of Far Madding and I keep hearing stories of this young man who's gone and conquered half-the world, tamed the savage Aiel, performs miracles and has Aes Sedai pour him tea. The clouds literally part in his presence to bathe him in light. Flowers bloom and grass turns green. When you look into his eyes you see wisdom incarnate. This dude's going to go and fuck up a god for me. He's already dropped a good few demi-gods whose names my mother used to tell me to scare the crap out of me. If he wants to get it done quicker then by the Light I'll help him! Maybe he'll bless my marriage with that bonnie lass from down the road. Marriage? Where did that come from? Sure I fancy her but.. well why not? The Lord Dragon would surely bless such a union! "Oh Erin.."

 

As a reader I side with Rand for the obvious reasons.

[Phoenix8514]

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

Lack of food has a way of hurting soldiers ability to fight wars. Right now, food seems to only be good in the immediate vicinity of the three farmboys and it is getting worse. See "Apples First" to see the despair on the land. i thought that chapter was amazingly well written.

 

Also, the hordes of trollocs overrunning Camelyn and the borderlands probably will cause a major disruption in the capacity of the light's forces as they ravage the land/people.

 

 

The food thing is overblown. people survived for 10 years in the war of power when shaitan has huge influence on the world.

 

As for the trollocs part, please! Trollocs and fades are irrelavant here. Rand alone destroyed thousands of them in maradon. You have aes sedai, ashaman, wiseones, sea folk, all sorts of sangreal, angreal not including the horn of valere in the lights armoury. SHadowsspawn are irrelevant.

 

 

The series will end at shayol ghul. Not in camelyn

That's true they did manage to hold on for ten years, but that was the Age of Legends. They probably new how to increase food production and may have even had instruments of the power to help with that. This age doesn't have that knowledge so the food issue remains a huge issue. Trollocs and Fades are irrelavant? Yes, this battle will be fought on a higher level, but they are not irrelavant. If Caemlyn falls it will leave an enemy behind they Light that they must deal with. They don't have the forces to fight on multiple fronts.

[Jon Paul]

I already knew this discussion was hopeless the moment you brought words like 'christian metaphysics' and jesus into it.

 

He was making the point that in Christian theology Jesus isn't just some cool Jew who woke up one morning to go to college, saw a group of protesting men and women handing out leaflets on social justice and decided to give the lark a try.

[anotherfingolfin]

I don't get how anybody could suggest that the stuff going down in Caemlyn is not all that big a deal. Sure, Rand could mop up an army's worth of Shadowspan, with considerable effort. Much harder for most channelers. And what about regular folk? So yes, Caemlyn being defended isn't a forgone conslusion.

I think the food point has been building up for so long, that its pretty much hammered into the reader. It is a big deal. People are starving all over. If people starve, they die, if they die, game over.

Either you let yoru enemy bleed you dry, with a million little cuts, at his leisure, with you having no way of striking back. Or you bring him out into the open, where he can kill you with one big blow, but you you also now have a chance of ending him. Rand's rationale is that you bring your enemy out where you can attack him before you have bled so much that you can't stand up anymore. Pretty simple really.

Didn't he say he would march to Shayol Ghul after breaking the seals? That seems like a definite step towards the beginings of a PoA to me. Just hope his girlfriend can finally have a moment of awesome and figure something out before that month is up.

[randsc]

That might be the worst analogy I've ever read.

 

Never mind, this discussion is hopless. You're right, Egwene is perfectly wonderful, and it was nice of Robert Jordan to create the girl you're going to marry one day.

 

 

I already knew this discussion was hopeless the moment you brought words like 'christian metaphysics' and jesus into it.

 

You know what? You're probably right. I apologize.

 

I'll try to keep it simpler for you, next time.

[draconian]

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

Lack of food has a way of hurting soldiers ability to fight wars. Right now, food seems to only be good in the immediate vicinity of the three farmboys and it is getting worse. See "Apples First" to see the despair on the land. i thought that chapter was amazingly well written.

 

Also, the hordes of trollocs overrunning Camelyn and the borderlands probably will cause a major disruption in the capacity of the light's forces as they ravage the land/people.

 

 

The food thing is overblown. people survived for 10 years in the war of power when shaitan has huge influence on the world.

 

As for the trollocs part, please! Trollocs and fades are irrelavant here. Rand alone destroyed thousands of them in maradon. You have aes sedai, ashaman, wiseones, sea folk, all sorts of sangreal, angreal not including the horn of valere in the lights armoury. SHadowsspawn are irrelevant.

 

 

The series will end at shayol ghul. Not in camelyn

That's true they did manage to hold on for ten years, but that was the Age of Legends. They probably new how to increase food production and may have even had instruments of the power to help with that. This age doesn't have that knowledge so the food issue remains a huge issue. Trollocs and Fades are irrelavant? Yes, this battle will be fought on a higher level, but they are not irrelavant. If Caemlyn falls it will leave an enemy behind they Light that they must deal with. They don't have the forces to fight on multiple fronts.

1st of all Dragon was whole and healthly and and 300 years old which would means the DO couldnt have as massive an effect as he does now. the dragon is 1 with the land and ppl after all. ppl believed in dragon which also lmits the DO. AoL had aiel ogier and greenmen to grow food at insane rates as we all learned from rand's trip though the pillars.

[Fel]

The food thing is overblown. people survived for 10 years in the war of power when shaitan has huge influence on the world.

 

As for the trollocs part, please! Trollocs and fades are irrelavant here. Rand alone destroyed thousands of them in maradon. You have aes sedai, ashaman, wiseones, sea folk, all sorts of sangreal, angreal not including the horn of valere in the lights armoury. SHadowsspawn are irrelevant.

I don't see too many Nym and Aiel doing their seedsinging this time around. The point of doing that seemed to be to keep the blight away from those crops. Nor do I see all the technology of the Age of Legends holding things together with standing weaves and jo-cars and a highly technological society.

 

Almen Bunt related how his entire town was likely to starve to death because of the apples dying. How many towns ARE starving to death right now in randland? I don't think it is overstating it.

 

Trollocs overran positions with Inturalde and his good sized contingent of Asha'man. leave aside Rand's somewhat unique abilities to destroy shadowspawn and I think you should believe that they can overrun the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Sea Folk, and Ashaman if they sent millions upon millions of trollocs and fades through.

 

To win, they need armies. Armies need food. Food is failing quickly. Why delay?

[Entreri]

IMO, both sides are doomed to failure. There's not as much time as Egwene thinks there is and the Bore cannot be fixed with a seal.

Yes, this exactly.

 

Good thing that that isn't what Rand intends to do, then. He states in the text he intends to defeat the Dark One permanently. The fact that he doesn't know how to make new seal is beside the point.

Are you referring to Rand's pre-VoG conversation with Moridin where he tells him he plans to kill the Dark One? Rand was still blind back then. He has since changed his approach to everything. I seriously doubt that is still his plan, especially since he mentions that he failed last time because he didn't have the women's help.

 

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

1. Shield him.

2. Bind him with ropes.

3. Travel to the black rocks of Shayol Ghul.

4. Gut him like a pig.

 

What? That could satisfy the prophecies couldn't it?

 

 

Not going to work on him. They cannot hold a shield on him any longer, even a shield held by 13 women, as Egwene said.

 

Individually, LTT would just annihilate so many AS, world's best fighter vs. 800 toddlers.

[Dream]

And when Rand says, "OK then, screw it. YOU GUYS go fight the Dark One."

 

What then?

1. Shield him.

2. Bind him with ropes.

3. Travel to the black rocks of Shayol Ghul.

4. Gut him like a pig.

 

What? That could satisfy the prophecies couldn't it?

 

 

Not going to work on him. They cannot hold a shield on him any longer, even a shield held by 13 women, as Egwene said.

 

Individually, LTT would just annihilate so many AS, world's best fighter vs. 800 toddlers.

 

A rogue Dragon is a dead Dragon.

[Elan Tedronai]

capacity to fight? what's this mysterious capacity that will vanish if the seals are not broken? The least bad option is to go and fight with a plan. You are suggesting that fighting without a plan is the best option. Otherwise, the capacity is gone! As if all the forces of light will simply disappear into thin air.

Lack of food has a way of hurting soldiers ability to fight wars. Right now, food seems to only be good in the immediate vicinity of the three farmboys and it is getting worse. See "Apples First" to see the despair on the land. i thought that chapter was amazingly well written.

 

Also, the hordes of trollocs overrunning Camelyn and the borderlands probably will cause a major disruption in the capacity of the light's forces as they ravage the land/people.

 

 

The food thing is overblown. people survived for 10 years in the war of power when shaitan has huge influence on the world.

 

As for the trollocs part, please! Trollocs and fades are irrelavant here. Rand alone destroyed thousands of them in maradon. You have aes sedai, ashaman, wiseones, sea folk, all sorts of sangreal, angreal not including the horn of valere in the lights armoury. SHadowsspawn are irrelevant.

 

 

The series will end at shayol ghul. Not in camelyn

That's true they did manage to hold on for ten years, but that was the Age of Legends. They probably new how to increase food production and may have even had instruments of the power to help with that. This age doesn't have that knowledge so the food issue remains a huge issue. Trollocs and Fades are irrelavant? Yes, this battle will be fought on a higher level, but they are not irrelavant. If Caemlyn falls it will leave an enemy behind they Light that they must deal with. They don't have the forces to fight on multiple fronts.

 

 

fair enough, but breaking the seals today or tomorrow or a year from now makes no difference to the grand scheme of things. The dark one will continue food spoilages until he is sealed up completely. All i am saying it's futile breaking the seals and opening the bore and starting a war without any plan. simples no? It's not like breaking the seals is magically going to create new delicious crops is it?

 

He was making the point that in Christian theology Jesus isn't just some cool Jew who woke up one morning to go to college, saw a group of protesting men and women handing out leaflets on social justice and decided to give the lark a try.

 

randsc obviously has emotional attachments to rand as he sees him as some sort of jesus aka messiah figure. Which explains everything the lord dragon does is excused. Like i said earlier. If that was jordan's intention then it's a piss poor one since i am not feeling it. Rand's persona in TOM looks forced. And when you look at the series as a whole, rand was much more believeable from books 1-3. You would root for him then. It went all downhill from book 5. Which is a shame coz he was rivaling at one point my favourite fantasy character, Tanis Half elven from the dragonlance series.