The conversation between Perrin/Faile/Elayne/Morgase/Alliandre - Re: The 2Riv ''Rebellion'' in Andor

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I'm wondering what about Brandon Sanderson's writings has given people the impression that he knows a quarter as much about history as anyone in this thread who's dropping names? The politics, the cultural and economic allusions, the language and modes of address: it's clear, and not just from Elayne's chapters, that Sanderson lacks most of the knowledge Jordan had, and Jordan himself was merely an educated amateur (and one who certainly never claimed to be adopting medieval, Renaissance, and early modern European customs wholesale at that).

 

 

We're simply saying that Elayne has set herself up for a lifetime of possible grief due to her political ineptitude. Even past the current generation. Let us say their children come to power. Any daughter of Rand's will probably ascend to the throne of Andor/Cairhien, whilst it is implied iirc that the son would get Two Rivers and Illian. This leaves open the classic dilemma, the son is an Andoran lord whilst also an Illian regent. If his sister calls to banners he could simply ignore her despite being lord of vast Andoran holdings. Whether it will show itself in a Henry the Lion vs Barbarossa or Henry II vs Louis VII manifestation.

[moratcorlm]

But she won't. She's a main character in a heroic novel. Her 'politically inept' actions have taken place in a world recently crafted by a 'politically inept' writer. There's no reason to believe your analogies have any bearing here.

[Mr Ares]

Oh left out the most obvious argument. BS and RJ undwrote perrin in this conversation. He touched on it, but I think perrin should have made it clear that TG was coming, and we can negotiate later. Whenever Elayne got selfish (and that's what she was doing, being selfish) Perrin should have said "we didn't rebel, you abandoned us, and the Dragon and your husband." or something. I would have been merciless.

Except Perrin did rebel. True, Andor wasn't there, but Perrin still rebelled. And is there any reason why they should negotitate later, as opposed to then? What makes later better? There was a problem then and there, it makes sense to solve it then and there, as everyone was present.

 

As for Elayne's "political ineptness", she had no de facto control over a region. That hasn't changed. She wasn't able to summon troops from it before, now she can only if the Lord of the region decides to. Sufficiently powerful bannermen can ignore their supposed lieges with impunity, this is not in dispute. But she reinforces the TR's allegiance to Andor - before, they would never have come, now they might if Perrin is a man of honour. In future generations, the holdings split: one person becomes ruler of Saldaea, another becomes Steward of the TR. Rand and Elayne's first daughter will hold Andor, first child (presumably) Cairhien, and we have no idea who takes Illian or the TR. It could be the three kingdoms all end up in personal union under the same monarch, while the second born child gets the "vast" holdings of the TR (read, four villages/towns, and a bunch of farms). So her position is no weaker for the deal she has made, and it is stronger. If Perrin abides by his word, it is a good choice, if he doesn't she has lost nothing anyway. It's a no lose situation.

[randsc]

Rebellion has a long and honorable tradition. Why does everyone keep writing about Perrin's "rebellion" as if it is a moral failing?

[Hopefire]

Rebellion has a long and honorable tradition. Why does everyone keep writing about Perrin's "rebellion" as if it is a moral failing?

Rebellion is a moral failing. Like those damn Americans, rebelling against their rightful overlords in England. After all the British had done for them, keeping them safe from the French, stationing troops in America, providing government and leadership, the Americans went and threw it all away.

 

 

Anyhow, arguing about how a system that resembles feudalism works in a different world and time is one thing, and using real world examples to illustrate concepts is one thing, but saying that the systems of the fictional world must match those of the real world when those of the real world changed over time and place themselves is somewhat ridiculous. It's like making an absolute statement that in a Democratic nation, there's a House of Representatives, a Senate, and a President, all independently elected by the peoples. While that may be true of some democratic societies, it does not necessarily apply to all.

 

At the end of the day, the question of who answers to whom, who supports whom, who rallies troops to support whom, is a question that the fictional main characters and their fictional children will work out for themselves, and it's unlikely that they'll take into account legal precedents established in medieval Europe - though obviously, the results may appear similar.

[randsc]

Rebellion has a long and honorable tradition. Why does everyone keep writing about Perrin's "rebellion" as if it is a moral failing?

Rebellion is a moral failing. Like those damn Americans, rebelling against their rightful overlords in England. After all the British had done for them, keeping them safe from the French, stationing troops in America, providing government and leadership, the Americans went and threw it all away.

 

 

Uhg-huh. How about Cromwell, or those ruffians at Runnymeade?

 

We accept some rebellions as morally justified, right? And the complete abandonment of a land by its putative rulers would sure seem like seem like a compelling justification to me.

[The Fisher King]

I'm wondering what about Brandon Sanderson's writings has given people the impression that he knows a quarter as much about history as anyone in this thread who's dropping names? The politics, the cultural and economic allusions, the language and modes of address: it's clear, and not just from Elayne's chapters, that Sanderson lacks most of the knowledge Jordan had, and Jordan himself was merely an educated amateur (and one who certainly never claimed to be adopting medieval, Renaissance, and early modern European customs wholesale at that).

 

Not snarking at you, just honestly curious: What will you do if we find out that RJ and not BS wrote that Elayne/Perrin scene you refer to?

 

 

- Fish

[moratcorlm]

Kill myself to erase the shame of being wrong, surely.

 

Now, there are lines in the scene that don't scan like Jordan, and I am comfortable saying to a near certainty that chapter 47 was not written by Jordan in its final form, but even if Sanderson simply paraphrased exact instructions for each line of dialogue, the next sentence, and my next post in this thread, would be in no way invalidated. Elayne is a hero in a work of fiction, and there's no reason to believe that as such she's making the wrong choice here. She might be. WOT has surprised in that light before: who'd guess before TOM that the writers thought Perrin's axe/hammer dilemma was as big a joke as we did? But absent some personal bias I don't see any reason to anticipate her failure.

[Hopefire]

Rebellion has a long and honorable tradition. Why does everyone keep writing about Perrin's "rebellion" as if it is a moral failing?

Rebellion is a moral failing. Like those damn Americans, rebelling against their rightful overlords in England. After all the British had done for them, keeping them safe from the French, stationing troops in America, providing government and leadership, the Americans went and threw it all away.

 

 

Uhg-huh. How about Cromwell, or those ruffians at Runnymeade?

 

We accept some rebellions as morally justified, right? And the complete abandonment of a land by its putative rulers would sure seem like seem like a compelling justification to me.

 

Cromwell! That black-hearted rogue murdered his rightful king! And don't get me started on the French, with their revolting revolting!

[Mandro]

Rebellion has a long and honorable tradition. Why does everyone keep writing about Perrin's "rebellion" as if it is a moral failing?

 

Yeahp!

 

I'm from a long line of rebels, 247 years to be precise.

 

ERBELS ROCK!

[Mandro]

If erbels are cute and fuzzy and like to be petted, they rock too, but I meant REBELS ROCK.

[chinnma]

Is anyone else pissed off that Elayne has manipulated events to have at least some measure of control over the 3 most important people in the world?

[capuga]

Is anyone else pissed off that Elayne has manipulated events to have at least some measure of control over the 3 most important people in the world?

 

Its not like she can actually force any of the three to do anything they don't want to do - all have enough military might to pretty much just ignore any order if they choose to (I include Mat even though his army is relatively small because his military skills make up for the size). Mat and Perrin both willingly negotiated bargains with her and her tie to Rand (I'm assuming you mean because she's queen above the new Lord of the TR) is really ceremonial.

 

And why wouldn't she? Her job as monarch of Andor is to make her country as strong as possible. Creating ties to people as powerful as the 3 ta'veren is just smart for a leader to do. None of her ties to the 3 is detrimental to the forces of the Light or their ability to fight the Shadow so it doesn't really bother me.

[mossman87]

I'm wondering what about Brandon Sanderson's writings has given people the impression that he knows a quarter as much about history as anyone in this thread who's dropping names? The politics, the cultural and economic allusions, the language and modes of address: it's clear, and not just from Elayne's chapters, that Sanderson lacks most of the knowledge Jordan had, and Jordan himself was merely an educated amateur (and one who certainly never claimed to be adopting medieval, Renaissance, and early modern European customs wholesale at that).

 

Hahaha, well played sir. You do your job well.

[Suttree]

I'm wondering what about Brandon Sanderson's writings has given people the impression that he knows a quarter as much about history as anyone in this thread who's dropping names? The politics, the cultural and economic allusions, the language and modes of address: it's clear, and not just from Elayne's chapters, that Sanderson lacks most of the knowledge Jordan had, and Jordan himself was merely an educated amateur (and one who certainly never claimed to be adopting medieval, Renaissance, and early modern European customs wholesale at that).

 

Hahaha, well played sir. You do your job well.

 

Second that...good call mate.

[chinnma]

Is anyone else pissed off that Elayne has manipulated events to have at least some measure of control over the 3 most important people in the world?

 

Its not like she can actually force any of the three to do anything they don't want to do - all have enough military might to pretty much just ignore any order if they choose to (I include Mat even though his army is relatively small because his military skills make up for the size). Mat and Perrin both willingly negotiated bargains with her and her tie to Rand (I'm assuming you mean because she's queen above the new Lord of the TR) is really ceremonial.

 

And why wouldn't she? Her job as monarch of Andor is to make her country as strong as possible. Creating ties to people as powerful as the 3 ta'veren is just smart for a leader to do. None of her ties to the 3 is detrimental to the forces of the Light or their ability to fight the Shadow so it doesn't really bother me.

 

Yeah i guess it doesnt matter that much, just makes Elayne a little more powerful than i would like her to be. At any rate i guess it makes sense of the Fortelling Eliada had about Andor being central to success in TG.

[randsc]

Is anyone else pissed off that Elayne has manipulated events to have at least some measure of control over the 3 most important people in the world?

 

Its not like she can actually force any of the three to do anything they don't want to do - all have enough military might to pretty much just ignore any order if they choose to (I include Mat even though his army is relatively small because his military skills make up for the size). Mat and Perrin both willingly negotiated bargains with her and her tie to Rand (I'm assuming you mean because she's queen above the new Lord of the TR) is really ceremonial.

 

And why wouldn't she? Her job as monarch of Andor is to make her country as strong as possible. Creating ties to people as powerful as the 3 ta'veren is just smart for a leader to do. None of her ties to the 3 is detrimental to the forces of the Light or their ability to fight the Shadow so it doesn't really bother me.

 

Yeah i guess it doesnt matter that much, just makes Elayne a little more powerful than i would like her to be. At any rate i guess it makes sense of the Fortelling Eliada had about Andor being central to success in TG.

 

Actually, Elaida's foretelling was that the royal line of Andor would be central to success in TG. Rand is of the royal line of Andor, through his mother.

[David Selig]

Someone really should tell Elaida that Rand is Tigraine's son, her reaction after realizing she misinterpreted her precious Foretelling that she based how her life around would be priceless. Too bad it most probably won't happen now that Elaida became Suffa the damane.

[sskk]

What Rand should have done is, let's trade Cairhien, a whole country for two rivers, Elyne and any noble from Andor would have to be an idiot to say no, and it would not set any dangerous/bad precedent for Andor, as they got one hell of deal.

 

And with Rand, he wouldn't have problem give it away, and no one will question his action. Since he more or less gave Cairhien, and in a sense Andor away.

[Sleeper]

I know it wouldn't have worked very well for very obvious reasons, but I was disappointed that Perrin didn't proclaim Manetheren reborn. I mean, Manetheren has been described throughout the series and everything seemed to be working up to that point until suddenly, Perrin, a ta'veren, one of three people absolutely crucial to winning TG, is under the jurisdiction of Elayne?

 

It just bugs me.

[Mr Ares]

What Rand should have done is, let's trade Cairhien, a whole country for two rivers, Elyne and any noble from Andor would have to be an idiot to say no, and it would not set any dangerous/bad precedent for Andor, as they got one hell of deal.

 

And with Rand, he wouldn't have problem give it away, and no one will question his action. Since he more or less gave Cairhien, and in a sense Andor away.

Rand didn't have the TR, Perrin did, so Rand couldn't give it away. Why would he? TR benefits more from being in Andor than it would from being independent, therefore the deal they struck (TR as autonomous Andoran province in name as well as fact) is the best deal possible.

 

 

I know it wouldn't have worked very well for very obvious reasons, but I was disappointed that Perrin didn't proclaim Manetheren reborn. I mean, Manetheren has been described throughout the series and everything seemed to be working up to that point until suddenly, Perrin, a ta'veren, one of three people absolutely crucial to winning TG, is under the jurisdiction of Elayne?

I'm glad that Perrin's character wasn't butchered in that way, and that "Manetheren" wasn't reborn as just a glorified TR. I mean, what a way to rape that heritage: great nation to four villages and a bunch of farms.

[capuga]

I know it wouldn't have worked very well for very obvious reasons, but I was disappointed that Perrin didn't proclaim Manetheren reborn. I mean, Manetheren has been described throughout the series and everything seemed to be working up to that point until suddenly, Perrin, a ta'veren, one of three people absolutely crucial to winning TG, is under the jurisdiction of Elayne?

I'm glad that Perrin's character wasn't butchered in that way, and that "Manetheren" wasn't reborn as just a glorified TR. I mean, what a way to rape that heritage: great nation to four villages and a bunch of farms.

 

Plus Perrin gave his word to Tylee that he would not raise the banner in exchange for her help with the Shaido. I would not have liked to see Perrin go back on his word after Tylee upheld hers.

[Finnssss22]

I know it wouldn't have worked very well for very obvious reasons, but I was disappointed that Perrin didn't proclaim Manetheren reborn. I mean, Manetheren has been described throughout the series and everything seemed to be working up to that point until suddenly, Perrin, a ta'veren, one of three people absolutely crucial to winning TG, is under the jurisdiction of Elayne?

I'm glad that Perrin's character wasn't butchered in that way, and that "Manetheren" wasn't reborn as just a glorified TR. I mean, what a way to rape that heritage: great nation to four villages and a bunch of farms.

 

Plus Perrin gave his word to Tylee that he would not raise the banner in exchange for her help with the Shaido. I would not have liked to see Perrin go back on his word after Tylee upheld hers.

 

 

Perrin never wanted to raise the Manetheren banner in the first place and promising Tylee to take it down wasn't any kind of sacrifice to begin with.

The only reason he even still continued to fly the Red Eagle was because Rand convinced him it would be a great mask for his true intentions in Ghealdan.

Perrin never had any intention of re-raising Manetheren period.

 

Even though we all enjoyed and hoped for Manetheren to rise again, we were also disabused of that notion early on and anyone getting upset about it now is just being kinda silly.

[Sleeper]

I know it wouldn't have worked very well for very obvious reasons, but I was disappointed that Perrin didn't proclaim Manetheren reborn. I mean, Manetheren has been described throughout the series and everything seemed to be working up to that point until suddenly, Perrin, a ta'veren, one of three people absolutely crucial to winning TG, is under the jurisdiction of Elayne?

I'm glad that Perrin's character wasn't butchered in that way, and that "Manetheren" wasn't reborn as just a glorified TR. I mean, what a way to rape that heritage: great nation to four villages and a bunch of farms.

 

Plus Perrin gave his word to Tylee that he would not raise the banner in exchange for her help with the Shaido. I would not have liked to see Perrin go back on his word after Tylee upheld hers.

 

 

Perrin never wanted to raise the Manetheren banner in the first place and promising Tylee to take it down wasn't any kind of sacrifice to begin with.

The only reason he even still continued to fly the Red Eagle was because Rand convinced him it would be a great mask for his true intentions in Ghealdan.

Perrin never had any intention of re-raising Manetheren period.

 

Even though we all enjoyed and hoped for Manetheren to rise again, we were also disabused of that notion early on and anyone getting upset about it now is just being kinda silly.

You callin' me silly, boy?

[Finnssss22]

 

You callin' me silly, boy?

 

Haha naw, just overly hopeful, we all were at some point or another but I think we all knew deep down that it wasn't going to happen.