Perrin's new station in Andor

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Elayne seeks to make him a steward or some form of duke to legally confirm his new status in hopes of not having to move against him in a military fashion. So technically he would still be subservient to the crown of Andor. However does this not raise some issues in and on itself.

 

From what I understand that besides now being the ruler of Two Rivers. He is also the lord of the Queen of Ghealdan by oath of fealty and is also married to the 1st cousin of the childless Queen of Saldea. The Marshal-General of Saldaea being his father-in-law.

 

Wouldn't the most frugal thing at this point be to grant autonomy to the Two Rivers lest you risk possessing a noble lineage in your realm who can easily raise you man for man in terms of soldiers and whose rule nigh rivals your own? It seems to somewhat mirror the old Holy Roman Emperor vs Duke of Saxony dilemma that caused quite a few problems.

[cgk84]

From book one the Andoran rulers have always seemed bizarrely determined to not let go of an area that by that stage they only ruled on paper. But now that it turns out that the Two Rivers is "useful" i.e. they can make money from it and trade for all the fancy news things its newcomers are helping it produce I can't see Elayne letting it go considering how selfish she is by nature.

[SuperFade]

Intelligent decisions? In my Wheel of Time? This is Elayne we're talking about here.

[capeta]

My understanding was that she ceded the Two Rivers to Rand and then it would be up to rand to make Perrin the Steward. The Two Rivers would no longer be part of Andor.

 

I recall someone saying to her that she would be the first queen to cede part of Andor in a long time. At least I think that was part of that scene and not a scene about the black tower.

 

-Cap

[Kadere]

Elayne doesn't cede control of the Two Rivers. Rand is already considered the ruler of Andor by many nobles, but Elayne removes his seat in Caemlyn and places it in the Two Rivers so that the Caemlyn nobles will stay loyal to her. As Rand "will be" her husband she still has control of the Two Rivers and doesn't give up ownership. It's then decided that Perrin would be named Steward under Rand, but since Rand probably won't rule the Two Rivers after the Last Battle Perrin still holds control. Then the idea is that Perrin's children from Faile will marry Elayne and Rand's kids thus giving Andor partial holdings in Saldaea, and since Perrin rules under Elayne Elayne also has power over Ghealdean. So basically Elayne gains a hell of a lot, especially after she takes control of Cairhien. She rules half the world.

[David Selig]

My understanding was that she ceded the Two Rivers to Rand and then it would be up to rand to make Perrin the Steward. The Two Rivers would no longer be part of Andor.

 

I recall someone saying to her that she would be the first queen to cede part of Andor in a long time. At least I think that was part of that scene and not a scene about the black tower.

The part in bold was about the square mile the Sea Folk got out of Elayne in the bargain they made in CoT in return for giving her Windfinders to help supply Caemlyn with food.

[Suttree]

Intelligent decisions? In my Wheel of Time? This is Elayne we're talking about here.

 

Actually it was a very intelligent decision and neat fix to the problem the TR's presented, see Kadere's post above...

[Grandis]

Elayne doesn't cede control of the Two Rivers. Rand is already considered the ruler of Andor by many nobles, but Elayne removes his seat in Caemlyn and places it in the Two Rivers so that the Caemlyn nobles will stay loyal to her. As Rand "will be" her husband she still has control of the Two Rivers and doesn't give up ownership. It's then decided that Perrin would be named Steward under Rand, but since Rand probably won't rule the Two Rivers after the Last Battle Perrin still holds control. Then the idea is that Perrin's children from Faile will marry Elayne and Rand's kids thus giving Andor partial holdings in Saldaea, and since Perrin rules under Elayne Elayne also has power over Ghealdean. So basically Elayne gains a hell of a lot, especially after she takes control of Cairhien. She rules half the world.

 

I'm pretty sure that referred to the child who will rule the TR, not the one who will rule Saldaea.

[Tollieman]

I really got the impression that The Two Rivers would be a single state under Rand (with Perrin hopefully/likely steward), regardless of his marriage to Elayne.

 

And if so, they need a new name, I mean; The Two Rivers? Manetheren is out of the equation.

[Muad Cheade]

I'm pretty sure that referred to the child who will rule the TR, not the one who will rule Saldaea.

Correct.

 

I really got the impression that The Two Rivers would be a single state under Rand (with Perrin hopefully/likely steward), regardless of his marriage to Elayne.

 

And if so, they need a new name, I mean; The Two Rivers? Manetheren is out of the equation.

The Two Rivers still remains a part of Andor. It is now Rand's seat as Lord. Perrin and his children are Rand's stewards in his absence.

[Tollieman]

I read it again, you're right. Putting Rand as High Lord also gives them a reason why they are exempt from taxes (which would have been a lovely way to stir up unrest with the other lords)...

[Nooska]

Elayne doesn't cede control of the Two Rivers. Rand is and since Perrin rules under Elayne Elayne also has power over Ghealdean. So basically Elayne gains a hell of a lot, especially after she takes control of Cairhien. She rules half the world.

Perrin, not being made a lord, does not rule under Elayne, but manages Rand's rule of TTR. Perrin's position as Liege Lord of Ghealdan is seperate from his status as Steward of TTR. If the queen of Ghealdan swore fealty to Perrin in any capacity, it would be as the general of the gathered army or as the husband of Faile, the next logical succesor to the throne of Saldaea.

Ghealdan does not become subject to Elayne, Perrin has not sworn fealty to Elayne and retains full liege priveledges over Ghealdan outside of Elayne's control.

[Tollieman]

So Elayne orders Rand to order Perrin to attack Ghealdan purely for conquest (or Saldaea)? What then? If they attack, they're 'wrong/bad'. If they don't attack, it's rebellion.

[Nooska]

So Elayne orders Rand to order Perrin to attack Ghealdan purely for conquest (or Saldaea)? What then? If they attack, they're 'wrong/bad'. If they don't attack, it's rebellion.

Liegedom doesn't work that way.

 

I refer you to how uch Elayne can order the regular lords and ladies in Andor - being not at all. Rand has a higher hierarchical position than regular lords and ladies.

Secondly, again, Alliandre did not swear to Perrin as steward of TTR nor to him as an Andoran or Rands representative. That Perrin is her liegelord has no bearing on his position as steward of TTR, or as subordinate to Rand - especially with a probable future throne for himself as co-ruler of Saldaea.

[randsc]

And let's remember, the Two Rivers was not given to Rand, with Perrin's line as stewards. It was given to the DRAGON with Perrin's line as stewards. There will be other Dragons. Perrin's line could end up being "stewards" for a very long time with no Dragon around.

 

Even with all of the new population from refugees, the land area of the old Manetheren continues to have a very low population density. I wonder if some of the People of the Dragon will settle there, rather than return to the Threefold land?

[Tollieman]

Are you sure? What I've understood is, Rand will HAVE to swear to the Lion throne. Even the consort has to do that. Which would mean that he WILL have to answer call to arms from Elayne, and if he ignores it it's treason. Of course, if he doesn't swear, it's not treason, but he wouldn't get The Two Rivers!

 

So if Andor gets into conflict somehow with Ghealdan (and we can be looking into the future when these rulers are long gone), they have a major problem.

 

Just seems awfully clumsy to me. Should just cede the area to 'The Dragon' and be done with it imo.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Are you sure? What I've understood is, Rand will HAVE to swear to the Lion throne. Even the consort has to do that. Which would mean that he WILL have to answer call to arms from Elayne, and if he ignores it it's treason. Of course, if he doesn't swear, it's not treason, but he wouldn't get The Two Rivers!

 

So if Andor gets into conflict somehow with Ghealdan (and we can be looking into the future when these rulers are long gone), they have a major problem.

 

Just seems awfully clumsy to me. Should just cede the area to 'The Dragon' and be done with it imo.

 

 

Precisely. This whole muddling around is simply laying very ripe seeds for a very convoluted civil war. So you technically claim Perrin as steward to prevent giving him a lordship while he carries the liegeship of the Queen of Ghealdan and could very well sire the next monarch of Saldaea. Even more concerning the monarch Elayne carries no power and is very unpopular in the lands ruled by this appointed Steward.

 

It's simply such a political disaster it makes me wonder if Elayne possesses even two brain cells to rub together. Political acumen is definitely not her strength. She can't forcefully oust Perrin, she can't rile up support against him and she can't even match him in force of arms. The most prudent course of action at this stage would be to cut off Two Rivers which doesn't pay taxes to begin with from the Realm. It's essentially no loss. Even moreso since you wish to avoid such complication and problems since you're annexing an entire Kingdom next-door, Cairhien.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Elayne doesn't cede control of the Two Rivers. Rand is already considered the ruler of Andor by many nobles, but Elayne removes his seat in Caemlyn and places it in the Two Rivers so that the Caemlyn nobles will stay loyal to her. As Rand "will be" her husband she still has control of the Two Rivers and doesn't give up ownership. It's then decided that Perrin would be named Steward under Rand, but since Rand probably won't rule the Two Rivers after the Last Battle Perrin still holds control. Then the idea is that Perrin's children from Faile will marry Elayne and Rand's kids thus giving Andor partial holdings in Saldaea, and since Perrin rules under Elayne Elayne also has power over Ghealdean. So basically Elayne gains a hell of a lot, especially after she takes control of Cairhien. She rules half the world.

 

 

Actually no. This raises several interesting points in itself. The Queen of Ghealdan swore to Perrin not as a noble of Andor, but because of his standing among the Dragon (Regent of Tear, Illian, Cairhien, etc..), his holdings in the Two Rivers and his personal Army. Liegeship does not work in the way you propose. The Queen of Ghealdan is loyal to Perrin and could care less what the Queen of Andor has to say. If Perrin would force the question of secession the Queen of Ghealdan would rally her forces against Andor in support of the Two Rivers.

 

Not to mention there is a certain difficulty in defining where Perrin stands. If he is the steward to the High Lord Rand, that means his superior is Rand and not Elayne. Also Rand eclipses Elayne in all matters of authority. Hell it was Rand who granted Elayne the right to rule by giving her both Andor and Cairhien as a gift per se. This raises the question that since Rand is superior in rank to Elayne by all custom and conduct how his lordship in Two Rivers cannot be considered autonomous from the throne of Andor if he does not sit on said throne. Since if Rand is lord of Two River and the Two Rivers are subservient to the crown of Andor this would mean all lands, holdings and rulings held by the Dragon would also be subservient to the crown of Andor. Which is simply ludicrous.

 

 

Which is why I really am starting to believe that Elayne is nothing but a dumb blonde who is too stubborn for her own good. This foolheaded refusal to negotiate anything on terms of the Two Rivers is going to lead to so much suffering some day when all the political mistakes come back to haunt her successors in form of a bad civil war that will somewhat resemble the 30 years and 7 years war.

[Muad Cheade]

Actually no. This raises several interesting points in itself. The Queen of Ghealdan swore to Perrin not as a noble of Andor, but because of his standing among the Dragon (Regent of Tear, Illian, Cairhien, etc..), his holdings in the Two Rivers and his personal Army. Liegeship does not work in the way you propose. The Queen of Ghealdan is loyal to Perrin and could care less what the Queen of Andor has to say. If Perrin would force the question of secession the Queen of Ghealdan would rally her forces against Andor in support of the Two Rivers.

Alliandre, Queen of Ghealdan is Perrin's liegelady. Perrin is Elayne's liegeman. In the case of Elayne calling her banners, Perrin would marshal his forces (which would include Alliandre and possible Mayene). You are correct. If Perrin were to rebel against Elayne, Ghealdan would support him.

 

Not to mention there is a certain difficulty in defining where Perrin stands. If he is the steward to the High Lord Rand, that means his superior is Rand and not Elayne. Also Rand eclipses Elayne in all matters of authority. Hell it was Rand who granted Elayne the right to rule by giving her both Andor and Cairhien as a gift per se. This raises the question that since Rand is superior in rank to Elayne by all custom and conduct how his lordship in Two Rivers cannot be considered autonomous from the throne of Andor if he does not sit on said throne. Since if Rand is lord of Two River and the Two Rivers are subservient to the crown of Andor this would mean all lands, holdings and rulings held by the Dragon would also be subservient to the crown of Andor. Which is simply ludicrous.

It means in Rand's absence, Perrin assumes his duty and is lord in his stead. If Rand returns, Perrin is subordinate to him and he is subordinate to the Queen. Rand did not have the right to "give the throne" to Elayne. That was one of the reasons there was a civil war. How is it ludicrous? It was Andor's land before the Dragon Reborn, and if Rand is a lord he has to be subservient to the Queen. That is how feudalism/clientism works.

 

Which is why I really am starting to believe that Elayne is nothing but a dumb blonde who is too stubborn for her own good. This foolheaded refusal to negotiate anything on terms of the Two Rivers is going to lead to so much suffering some day when all the political mistakes come back to haunt her successors in form of a bad civil war that will somewhat resemble the 30 years and 7 years war.

How? In ToM alone, she positioned her nation to be the most powerful after Tarmon Gai'din. She has free health-care and transportation from her agreement with the Kin, she has military security with the Band of the Red Hand and the dragons from her agreement with Mat and stability and new allies from her agreement with Perrin. Also, she just gained the throne of Cairhien. She has shown herself to be a shrewd ruler.

 

If Elayne had let Perrin secede, that would create anarchy.

1). Perrin rebelled. Simple fact. Yes, Andor was not there to help during the Trolloc attacks, but the fact remains.

2) If Perrin was given a carte blanch and allowed to form his own nation, that would allow any other person to secede from Andor and declare himself a lord or king as long as he had an army to back him.

[Tollieman]

Which is why she should have 'given' The Two Rivers to The Dragon Reborn (say in a deep, booming voice), not Perrin. Morgase suggested Rand to be lord there, but they didn't go the whole way.

 

I mean, what lord or lady in Andor would have had a problem with her giving the Lord Dragon's land of... adolesence to him??

And what Two Rivers folk would have had a problem with Rand (well, once Perrin calmed them down a bit and made it clear he was still essentially in charge as steward)?

 

What she has now, is potential for civil war because of the number of possible conflicting interests (let's just throw a Saldaean link in there too). Ignore the honest, 'good' leaders we have at the moment. Imagine when they die and a generation or three later the combined leadership DOESN'T get along? And as Elayne implies; yes they don't want the throne, their descendants might. But if they didn't belong to Andor, then the chances would be MUCH less (ignoring Rand's Andorian blood for a sec).

 

Throw in the fact that The Two Rivers are exempt from taxes and some of the other lords might start a rebellion too!

 

edit: I don't think Elayne is by any means stupid, I think she made a big mistake though.

[moratcorlm]

The Saldaean link is the only worrisome one at the moment. Ghealdan is a failed state at this point in the story, and if Perrin or his heir invoked its aid in an attack on Andor the great houses would rally to Elayne to annex it. Perrin's Wolf Guard is likely going to take heavy losses in Tarmon Gai'don, and even if it doesn't there is a huge question of whether it will follow him home (where? are they going to build a city?) afterwards, or if Perrin will remain ta'veren afterwards for that matter. Without the Saldaean army (what remains of it after Saldaea is nearly destroyed in TOM) Perrin could not hope to match Andor in battle.

[randsc]

Frankly, the special tax status of the Two Rivers is more likely to cause political discontent than letting the place (never a core province of Andor) go.

 

I have never seen anyone explain how exactly an independent Two Rivers would cause such anarchy. Virtually all of the nations of Randland are smaller than they once were. The world of tWoT is a world where humanity is in retreat. Realms grow smaller, vast lands lie fallow in the voids between nations. What's one more bit, a bit that hasn't truly been part of Andor in living memory?

 

And how would it cause rebellion among the nobility of Andor? Frankly, if any of them had the power base that Perrin has, they WOULD rebel now. The only way to prevent Perrin's precedent from encouraging rebellion is to kill him.

 

Of course, then the Dragon loses, the Dark One unravels the Pattern, and the world ceases to exist.

 

Elayne would be better off letting the Two Rivers go, tieing its ruling house up in dynastic marriages, and directing her nobles attention to new opportunities in Cairhein.

[moratcorlm]

The world of tWoT is a world where humanity is in retreat. Realms grow smaller, vast lands lie fallow in the voids between nations. What's one more bit, a bit that hasn't truly been part of Andor in living memory?

That's the world of the Third Age. The Fourth Age is going to have an entirely different theme. Relying on a dying paradigm to justify his rebellion would be as dangerous for Perrin as relying on his ta'veren status, which will likely be revoked after the Last Battle.

[randsc]

The world of tWoT is a world where humanity is in retreat. Realms grow smaller, vast lands lie fallow in the voids between nations. What's one more bit, a bit that hasn't truly been part of Andor in living memory?

That's the world of the Third Age. The Fourth Age is going to have an entirely different theme. Relying on a dying paradigm to justify his rebellion would be as dangerous for Perrin as relying on his ta'veren status, which will likely be revoked after the Last Battle.

 

You have absolutely no idea that either of those things is true.

 

And anyway, by your own logic, why would a "rebellion" in the LAST age have any impact (let alone cause anarchy) in the NEXT age?

[Tollieman]

The Saldaean link is the only worrisome one at the moment. Ghealdan is a failed state at this point in the story, and if Perrin or his heir invoked its aid in an attack on Andor the great houses would rally to Elayne to annex it.

 

While what you say is correct, it's not the point we're making. With the conflict of interest, if a request came from ANDOR towards Ghealdan that Alliandre refuses, Elayne can just order Perrin to order her.

 

She can basically order the Ghealdan army (with Perrin as liegelord, you really think it'll stay a broken state?) to defend Andor at the cost of Ghealdan itself, just by ordering Perrin to defend Andor with all his resources which includes Alliandre. If he refuses, it's treason.

 

Of course, her oath is to Perrin, so when either of them die, this problem will be gone. However, the issue of Saldaea remains (if he becomes King).

 

The cycle can turn though, I suppose - if he abdicates his stewardship in that case, to Mat. And the Band of the Red Hand will again protect the ruler of 'Manetheren'