Cadsuane

[Luckers]

I thought you presented it with great clarity.

[OzzieAlThor]

Well go figure. I craft a well round rebuttal and we were agreeing all along. :lol: Sorry!

[liatildina]

Ta'veren moment.

[Bob T Dwarf]

My, my, ladies. Put down those knitting needles before you hurt each other.

 

A number of people seem to feel Rand has been throwing tantrums. Examples please, since I don't recall any such thing. Too arrogant? He's not arrogant enough, by half.

 

Some folks also seem to consider Cadsuane's actions reasonable, proper, and intelligently thought out. Where is the evidence for that?

 

There is certainly ample evidence that she is the most arrogant character in the series. There is ample evidence that she considers herself to have the only functional brain on the planet. There is ample evidence that she considers herself to be the only truly omniscient and omnipotent being around. She thinks she's bulletproof because she has the trinkets she got from that wilder.

 

There is absolutely no evidence that any of her beliefs are true. There is no evidence that she has helped Rand in any way. Cleansing saidin? Rand would have done that with or without her. It was a case of follow ( and make yourself VERY useful ) or get out of the way.

 

She's a waste. A waste as a character. A waste of plot. A waste of ink.

 

For reasons forever known only to himself, Jordan has chosen to make Rand about as much of a wimp as possible through merely introducing her as a character in his orbit. Sure he's supposed to be young, inexperienced, uncertain, emotionally vulnerable, human and fallible. He's not supposed to be terminally stupid. But, that's what her continued presence in the story makes him.

 

And, that's a real shame. It's one of several things that has degraded this story throughout the years.

[Luckers]

Evidence? Min. Point and case. Cadsuane is needed. Sorry buddy.

 

Rand has behaved like a fool. He has gained too much power too easily, and his only recourse is a tantrum... the overt display of strength. Cadsuane is acting like anyone should with anyone who displayed such a pre-pubescent responce. She treats his tantrums with disdain. From this he'll learn to actually think about things rather then simply throwing his weight around like a fool.

[Mystica]

I'd like to add my 2 cents, even if they aren't worth much (or anything to some of you).

 

1. Rand is in my heart. Has been since book one. Still is and probably will be till the end.

At the start he was a young man, strong, respectful, hard working, loved and welcomed by all and with the ability to enjoy life (mostly in the form of mischief with Mat and Perrin).

Out of the blue he is confronted with trollocs, aes sedai, wripped from the only world he's ever known and loaded with the weight of the world not to mention the horrifying news that he's the Dragon Reborn. A thing he's been taught since infancy second only to the Dark One himself.

Along the way he is forced by the very fact that he IS the DR to fight, to conquer, to learn and to make an age-jump of at least 20 years overnight in maturity. Decisions are put in his hands that belong to kings and queens. Once rulers look to him for orders. And all along he is cornered on all sides by manipulation, corruption, egoism, treason and out right foolisness.

This boy is forced to balance it all out, is forced to do what others are trained for since childhood, is confronted by the death of strangers and friends alike while knowing he can't turn back.

The only way for such a boy (in his mind and lacking experience or training) to cope with that is to build up his internal walls. Walls that will protect him from falling apart under the shere weight of the assaults on his person by the events. On several occasions he says 'i have to become harder, i can't afford to feel, i have to become hard as stone'.

So he builds his walls around his emotions. More specifically around pain, sorrow, grief. Knowing the weight of those might be fatal to him and thus to the world. Which, incidently, was also Lewis Therin's fatality when the pain hit him of his murdering all those he loved. Resulting in the breaking of the world.

You can argue that it's a good thing not to be able to feel pain and sorrow. They are, however, an integral part of what makes us human. They are given to us by nature because we need them. If you lock up certain emotions, inevitably other emotions are going to fill in the empty spots and growing disproportionate. Anger, distrust, rage. These are extremely strong and deceivingly 'safe', for they give the false impression of being in controle. The threat there is that these types of emotions, if left to fester, will end up controling you. Which leads to things like tirany and the like.

Rand isn't a tiran. That is not who he truelly is. But he has been building up those walls of his around his pain and sorrows that his anger, rage and mistrust have plenty of playing ground to push him away from his true self.

I want Rand to be strong. But I want him to have the right kind of strength. I don't want him left a slave to his rage, anger and mistrust. I want him to be able to love his wives without sadness or fear.

I want him in controle of his emotions, not them in controle of him.

 

2. Moiraine and Cadsuane

They are two different women and the two Aes Sedai I favor above all others. Both fill in a void that is present in Rand's life as the DR that he needs filling.

Moiraine determined to see him ready to win the Last Battle.

Cadsuane determined to see him survive it keepin his sanity.

I am sorry if some of you don't see that but it is your right to make up your own minds. I won't go in a fightingmatch with anyone over it.

 

3. Cadsuane's method

From the get go Rand has shown a humility. Later that has changed in him automatically distrust people who agreed with him too easily. On several occasions has he pointed out to be disgusted by the butt licking attitude of some. While all the time he needed to act like a hard and ruthless tiran to exactly those same people to get them to do what they must.

Cadsuane isn't trying to humiliate Rand, in my opinion. He has that completely in his own hands. Depending on 'how' he treats others is how she will treat him. She also specifically said 'what I do will be in your best interests. Not mine, not the White Tower, yours'. She said that out flat and being Aes Sedai Rand could not but believe her words. This, apart from Min's viewing, convinces Rand that she at least will not use him for any White Tower plot. Which has always been one of his most present fears, to become a tool used by the White Tower.

One could say that she appears arrogant. I see that as confidence based on literally centuries of experience. Her allegiance, as Moiraine's, is first and foremost to the Light and only secondly to the Tower. There were too many current Aes Sedai act like they are the Light, Cadsuane knows she is a servant of the Light. Being Green, however, also makes her look past the cause alone. Something Moiraine lacks, being Blue. To Moiraine it would matter little if Rand survived the Last Battle, sad as it would make her. As long as he wins.

Cadsuane isn't going to settle for just that. She wants him to survive it and be able to enjoy life.

 

4. If Rand were my son

I would beg Cadsuane to watch over him. I couldn't think of any one better to protect him: mind, body and soul.

 

 

5. Finally: strength

I always felt that the Aes Sedai have a twisted sence of true strength. This is shown in their hierarchy method. They base it on the strength in the power, rather than in wisdom (which is the way of the Wise Ones and the Kin).

Egwene is a better Amyrlin from the start because of her training with the wise ones.

Cadsuane immediately recognises Sorilea as her equal in strength, regardless the fact that Sorilea is extemely weak in the Power.

Alise of the Kin can not channel at all, yet even Nyneave walks lightly around her.

 

True strength is what we find inside ourselves, in my opinion. Not in the tools handed to us, titles put on us, wealth of possession or any other outside source. Depending on outside sources for your strength leaves one open and vulnerable. Inner strength can not be taken away.

 

And I believe that is what Cadsuane wishes to teach Rand. To once again be in controle of all his emotions, rather than letting them controle him (and through him the world).

 

Rand may be the DR. He may be the equal to kings and queens and the world does lay in his hands. Winning the Last Battle isn't the only responsibility he has, however. He is to mend the breaking as well, which I for one want to see him do as himself. The Rand I've known from the beginning, grown in strength and wisdom and with the ability to enjoy it.

 

fwew... i need a drink...

[Mystica]

oh, and i agree also with Lialtildena.

I think she meant with 'remembering he is a sheepherder' that Cadsuane wants Rand to return to being fully human and not just the Light's weapon against Darkness.

 

 

 

now, for that drink.... *wanders off*

[liatildina]

Mystica your mom raised you right!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think Cadsuane is the perfect guide for Rand since Moiraine, and with her help he'll reach TG almost whole. When Moiraine does return I don't think she will find fault with Cadsuane at all.

[Zardi]

Mystica, I think you have a very good point about anger and mistrust filling the void left by Rand's blocking of other emotions. I never thought of it that way before.

 

I agree with almost everything in your post, except for this:

To Moiraine it would matter little if Rand survived the Last Battle, sad as it would make her. As long as he wins.

That was certainly true in the beginning, but I think Moiraine came to care about Rand as Rand, not just as the Dragon Reborn. In TFoH, when they are back in Cairhien and Moiraine brings Rand two letters from the White Tower, Rand at one point thinks that Moiraine looks "almost fond" of him. Moiraine is very good at not showing emotion on her face, as we all know, so if Rand thinks he almost saw fondness for him in her face, then Moiraine certainly felt it. And when you care about someone, their survival does matter to you.

 

By the way, when you say "tiran," I believe you mean "tyrant." ;)

[Mystica]

Tyrant, right, I meant that..... lol

 

True, Moraine did come to be very fond of Rand. The little brat has a way of winning people over after all. ;)

 

However, Moiraine's dedication to the light is not to be underestimated. She would even sacrifice Siuan, who she not just likes but definately loves. She is a Blue in her core and down to her core faithful to the cause.

 

Besides, to Moiraine chosing to kill Rand to prevent his capture by the Dark Side would be to her like saving him in a way. She would be saving his soul, as she would see it. And at the same time preventing the Dark One to use Rand for his own cause.

 

So, Moiraine wouldn't do it out of malice or because she doesn't care. But exactly because she cares.

 

I know it might be a bit far fetched, but Moiraine is full of complications, so for me it would fit with her character.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mystica -

 

Great analysis of Rand and his development as a character throughout the series thusfar.

 

After that, however, I gotta disagree. What Moiraine would do, or sacrifice in order to win TG would depend on how she defines winning. Or, what she would be willing to accept as a minimal win. I agree, Rand's job isn't simply to defeat the DO, but also to heal the Breaking that occurs in that process. Whether Moiraine is wise enough to know that the healing is part of Rand's job or not is the open question.

 

As for Cadsuane. It's a very open question in my mind whether her avowed purpose is, in fact, her real purpose. It's highly debatable that she, in fact, has the least idea what Rand really needs, or what is truly in his best interest. That's where the arrogance comes in. She assumes she knows, simply because she's Cadsuane. That goes beyond arrogance into the realm of fatuous foolishness. Her methods stink. Everything she does is most likely to provoke him into rage. What might happen if that ever occurs, nobody but Jordan knows. The most likely consequence would probably spare her due to her trinkets but could be rather hard on the surroundings and anyone within several miles. Taking that kind of risk with other people's lives isn't merely arrogant, it's irresponsible.

 

No, Cadsuane needs to die. Soonest.

[Gentled Ben]

She assumes she knows, simply because she's Cadsuane.

How does that make her different from anyone else, you, me, or Rand, included?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't claim to know what Rand really needs. I'm not ( quite ) THAT arrogant. :D

 

What I will claim, based on events in the books, is to have some slight idea what he DOESN'T need.

 

What he doesn't need is another person trying to manipulate him. He's got thousands of those already.

 

My gut feeling is, that what he needs is, a counselor. Someone to talk with.

 

If one merely breaks down the emotional walls another person has erected, he/she destroys something fundamental within that person, weakening them. If one reasons and counsels with that person, there is a decent chance that he/she helps them dismantle those walls themselves. That strengthens the individual.

 

Cadsuane has chosen to try to batter down Rand's walls rather than to help him dismantle them.

[Gentled Ben]

My gut feeling is, that what he needs is, a counselor. Someone to talk with.

Min seems to be trying to provide him with that. Hopefullly, he'll make use of it. I think she's the only reason he's still remotely human at this point, in fact, but I don't like her that well as a character.

 

Cadsuane has chosen to try to batter down Rand's walls rather than to help him dismantle them.

She's a bit gruff, but I suspect she can be empathetic, compassionate, etc. She just feels constrained by the speed with which TG is approaching. She doesn't have time to dismantle; she may not even have time to batter down...(and the suspensful, background music starts up).

 

 

 

I'm not ( quite ) THAT arrogant.

 

I wasn't accusing you of arrogance; I was only trying to say that like Cadsuane, all of us tend to think we know best, or at least, that we know. Especially on a website like this, you find intelligent people. We all tend to think that we know something because, well, we're smart. Cadsuane seems smart, too. Why wouldn't she, like the rest of us, think she knows, if not everything, at least enough to be in charge? Maybe I should own all of that more for myself, rather than projecting it on others, but it's been my observation throughout life and during my brief time on the boards here at DM, and well, I'm smart, so I know! :P

I just see some of myself in Cads, and I see something of the rest of the DMers in her, too.

Edit: Oh, good grief... maybe that is arrogance! :shock:

[Dark Justice]

There is absolutely no evidence that any of her beliefs are true. There is no evidence that she has helped Rand in any way. Cleansing saidin? Rand would have done that with or without her. It was a case of follow ( and make yourself VERY useful ) or get out of the way.

 

Correct me if Im wrong. But I seem to remember a very stupid boy who wanted to cleanse The Source all by himself & Nyn. A boy that didnt make a proper defenceplan at all. And a woman who arranged, planned & executed a defence that kept the boy & Nyn alive, while doing what they came there for, without interuptions.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think we can all agree that Jordan has written Rand to behave just about as stupidly as is possible. All of the main and most of the minor characters, as well.

 

Fact remains that IF Rand had been written to be a slightly more intelligent character, this series would have been wrapped up 10 years ago.

 

However, I don't recall that Rand intended for he and Nynaeve to go it alone. Cadsuane being along simply altered the disposition of his bodyguard somewhat. Had she not been there, he would have just put somebody else in charge of keeping them safe.

 

In fact, we don't have much idea what Rand intended at all. All we really have is what happenend after Cadsuane bulled her way in and started bossing everybody around.

[Mystica]

Mystica -

 

I agree' date=' Rand's job isn't simply to defeat the DO, but also to heal the Breaking that occurs in that process.

 

[/quote']

 

 

Actually, Bob, I was talking about healing the first breaking.

 

 

See, I look upon that the same as when the bone in a body is broken. When left unattended, the broken bone attaches itself to the rest of the body again, but in a wrong way. The body can still function, though not naturally.

To 'undo' that wrong, that same bone is often broken agàin by doctors and then set aright, thus healing was has been broken.

 

Randland is already 'Breaking' al be it not in the mountain-erupting, fire raging, ocean's shifting type of way it did with Lews Therin. Nations are formed, old nations are changing, habits and traditions are on the draft, everything is turned upside down and inside out. The Breaking has been happening ever since he declared, as was foretold.

 

It is quite possible that there will be an eruption in the Last Battle, but that will only be one part of the whole Re-Breaking process.

 

 

(ps: please forgive me my inability to put the quotes properly and neatly like you all do. lol, I simply don't know how)

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think we can all agree that Jordan has written Rand to behave just about as stupidly as is possible. All of the main and most of the minor characters, as well.

 

I think Jordan has written very intelligently about what would happen to a basically kind, sensitive young man thrust headfirst, practically overnight, into being an orphaned object of intrigue with a responsibility no one person should have to endure, balancing multiple cultures he doesn't understand, presenting him with obligations he doesn't always know how to meet, and betrayal at every turn. Not to mention a literally raving lunatic madman inhabiting his head, who is sopped in guilt at killing his wife and all his family and friends, who IS you in a sense, and whose emotions and experiences can inflitrate you on a subconscious level. Thats not even touching on the fact that he was deeply involved with the Power while it was tainted for well over a year, and has a pustle of two kinds of evil inside him.

 

A normal person would have completely lost it by the third book, which is almost what happened to Rand. Mentally, I think he was in the most danger to date on that trip to Tear. He's getting close to coming back to that point again now.

[Mystica]

As for Cadsuane. It's a very open question in my mind whether her avowed purpose is' date=' in fact, her real purpose. It's highly debatable that she, in fact, has the least idea what Rand really needs, or what is truly in his best interest. That's where the arrogance comes in. She assumes she knows, simply because she's Cadsuane. That goes beyond arrogance into the realm of fatuous foolishness. Her methods stink. Everything she does is most likely to provoke him into rage. What might happen if that ever occurs, nobody but Jordan knows. The most likely consequence would probably spare her due to her trinkets but could be rather hard on the surroundings and anyone within several miles. Taking that kind of risk with other people's lives isn't merely arrogant, it's irresponsible.

 

No, Cadsuane needs to die. Soonest.[/quote']

 

 

 

What anti-Cadsies seem to keep forgetting is that we àre talking about a woman who has literally had centuries of experience dealing with all types of people. So if she acts like she knows what she's doing, it is at the very least based on a little bit more solid ground than, say, Elayne or even Siuan or yes, even Moraine.

 

Cadsuane came in to the picture not seeing the boy Moiraine had the chance to meet in the beginning. She saw a boy in over his head, struggling to balance 60000 pointy and poisonous daggers with one hand while building up those walls that make him hard, but not strong.

 

Let me put this in just to make clear that I am not automatically siding with the women in this novel. From the start àll of the women got on my nerves with their 'mightier-than-thou' attitude and the men basically got on my nerves for lacking any type of backbone where women were concerned. Not just Aes Sedai, but e.g. the Women Circle in Emond's Field as well.

I'm a huge fan of Mat for precisely the reason that he doesn't take the abuse of women lying down (while still staying fair, honest, true to his word and well one any friend could count on, despite himself).

 

In comes Cadsuane... here is the FIRST Aes Sedai (beside Moiraine) in the book that actually cares about something more than the White Tower. And it's Rand. Not just because he is the DR. But because he IS a 'boy' with way too much on his plate at risk of losing himself in the process of doing what he must.

 

Yes, she is pushing him. She wànts him to break down in tears, because that is the only way to break those walls of him and start his 'personal' healing process. (believe me, i know from personal experience).

 

Rand has to grow strong, as strong as he can possibly get. The only way for him to be able to do that is to confront his emotions, àll of them. Including his pains, fears and sorrows. And this 'before' his rage and mistrust puts him so far from his true self that even Min, Aviendha ànd Elayne together won't be able to reach him.

 

Much like the world, Rand has been broken. And now he needs to be broken again so he can be healed and grow strong in the right way.

 

That is what I mean with 'his interests'. That's what I believe Cads means with 'your interests'. He is her true project, not TG.

 

fwew, need another drink. I never knew typing could be so thirsty...

 

 

(btw, thanks Bob, you allowed me to spill my thoughts. I respect your opinion, but it's great to be able to voice mine).

[Gentled Ben]

*dabs at his eyes*

 

You make me proud to be a Cadsuane fan, Mystica. Great post!

[Mystica]

awwwwww, thanks Ben

 

*hands Ben a brew* CHEERS!

[Xeonicus]

I like Cadsuane.... and I think she could give Bair and Amys lessons on how to chew rocks, even if she couldn't channel at all. That is one rock hard and experienced lady and I wouldn't want her on my enemies side.

 

Anywho... Rand was acting up in Tear in KoD and she reined him in. I think she handles him better than Moraine.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Glad I could help. While I may not agree with all of them, your thoughts are valuable.

 

I get what you mean by rebreaking the bone, but, to me, there's more to it than that. To me, Rand's real task is not just to win the war, but moreso to win the peace that follows. That needs to start with healing the land.

 

If he is truly The Dragon Reborn, he is also the Lord of the Morning, and heir to all of that office's powers and responsibilities. In order to BE The Dragon Reborn, he needs to be far more than a warlord. He needs to BE the Lord of the Morning and the Amyrlin, just as LTT was before he went mad.

 

Rand is not merely Tyr. He's also Balder.

 

Or, at least, that is my hope for how the series resolves.

[liatildina]

Mystica well done. I am a Cadsie fan, and I enjoyed your post.

 

That being said... I never understand why all you guys assume that the women treat men so badly. I love the women in these books they are strong, dedicated, brave and have great hair.

 

Does it ever mention if Cadsuane had a warder at one time, or forgive me maybe she has one now and I forgot. I think Cadsuane knows the importance of Rand being whole, besides the arm, at TG. Does Cads know about LTT? What do you think her advice would be about handling that small situation in Rands head?

 

Sorry way to much coffee, to little time, and too many questions.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Cadsuane has had at least two Warders. The major reason she "retired" was that they were getting too old for the work, and she didn't think she'd live long enough to justify taking replacements.

 

Both of those Warders are now dead from old age. The last action either of them saw was when Cads captured Logain.