Cadsuane

[Diamondmask]

I'm not sure what to make of her. Sometimes I think she's a dark friend and at other times she seemed genuinely compassionate (altho not often) when she found out about the Red Ajah kidnapping him and keeping him in a box.

 

What do you guys think?

[Luckers]

Cadsuane is not Black Ajah. Aside from her own points of view which more then establish this she could easily have sabotaged Rand several times.

 

She is just a strong-willed intelligent woman who is free of the indoctrinations Aes Sedai bully into their novices.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, I think she's very compassionate, and only treats Rand the way she does because it is what she believes is necessary. Truthfully, she reminds me of Moiraine, not in mannerisms, or even methods, but in her purpose and resolve.

 

Annoying as she has been at times, the only other Aes Sedai of comparable stature in my book is Egwene al'Vere. The way she's undermining Elaida is a joy to read.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: Actually, I think she's very compassionate, and only treats Rand the way she does because it is what she believes is necessary. Truthfully, she reminds me of Moiraine, not in mannerisms, or even methods, but in her purpose and resolve.

 

This might sound scary, but I think we actually agree, or at least almost agree, on another topic.

 

I tend to see Cadsuane as being the stern Aunt. She cares very much, but doesn't want others to know how much. She also treats people very much in a manner reflective of how they act towards her.

[Whitestar]

Definately not black and definatly cares. She wants the light to win and the White Tower to be strong so she goes out of her way to achieve those goals regardless of the means she needs to use.

[Jorik Alarin]

If Rand finally does snap, and goes buck wild on people, i'm sure the blame for it will lay at Cadsuanes feet. She may not be black Ajah but she certainly doesn't have Rands best interests at heart. "Intelligent Woman" BAH! Aes Sedai Bully is more like. I personally think of her as the condescending snobby neighbor who always knows better than anyone else and has been right enough times to be inured to the possibility that her way might NOT be the best way. Remember the society that produced Cadsuane, both her home town of Far Madding, and her training in The Tower. Neither of these particular cultures is capable of seeing a male as anything other than an inconvenience or a bother.

[Luckers]

Tip-toeing around Rand could be foolish at this stage. As Moiraine said, he does need people who wont cave in at the sight of him in a rage--if only to keep him from making mistakes. Concider the continued assault on the Seanchan in PoD... If Cadsuane had been there, do you think that would have happened.

 

CW, your description is perfect to my mind. Its almost exactly what i see in Cadsuane.

[Jorik Alarin]

Well, i don't think trying to deliberately provoke and pushing him to the brink is sage wisdom either. He is not the person with whom to play those kind of games, and yes i honestly feel thats what cadsuane is doing, playing mind games."Tee hee hee lets see if i can get away with smacking him around and ridiculing him again, lets see if this is the time he will finally lose it and retaliate, then i can prove how uber i am with all my ter'angreal" Thats just some juvenile stuff right there. There must be a reasonable medium where Rand is treated neither as an idiot to be scolded lectured and belittled, nor as the perfect being who must not be questioned. I got a damn fine idea lets treat him like.......a grown up. Can any of you really imagine Cadsuane acting that way to any other ruler with Rands level of power(and i dont mean the OP)....say Pedron Niall when he was alive? I think RJ has done poorly by Rand, in the latter books he acts more and more childish, and becomes a less and less sympathetic character. I'd really like to see a return of Rand from Book 4, confident in his plan, wary of his enemies and trusting of his friends.(Egwene Mat Perrin and Nynaeve)

 

Edit: I know this return may be impossible due to his prolonged use of tainted OP, and the fact that another(crazy) man resides in his skull and is actively trying to take over his life. I know that Rand has gone through some serious trauma, and he desperately needs council he can trust. I just wish RJ had chosen a better vehicle than Cadsuane, i see her as the epitome of whats wrong with The current Aes Sedai.

[Luckers]

I think he is exactly the type of person to push. If he can't handle it now, he wont be able to handle Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Its juvenile with a reason. Human beings gain social power by their ability to interact with others, including the ability to stand up to them. Rand has been getting his way via the use of temper tantrums for several books now, and that is dangerous. Indeed what Cadsuane is doing is exactly what she should, its how we learn not to use tantrums... specifically being people who neither cower away, nor react in kind, but choose instead to ridicule, laugh at and dismiss our actions. This brings about more subtle forms of power usage. And more specifically it teaches us control. If losing your temper just gets you laughed at, or makes you look like a fool, you learn to keep it. Stereotypically this is when banter would become a tool, but i dont think that is Cadsuane's desire. She is trying to teach Rand control in the face of opposition and that true power comes from calmly concidered reaction, not emotional outbursts.

 

Can any of you really imagine Cadsuane acting that way to any other ruler with Rands level of power

 

Er... she's kidnapped kings of Arad Domon and Tarbon and 'paddled their bottoms'. She had the Ambassador of the Sea Folk spanked, and Aes Sedai have faired no better against her. Its even rumoured she assaulted an Amyrlin.

 

I think RJ has done poorly by Rand, in the latter books he acts more and more childish, and becomes a less and less sympathetic character. I'd really like to see a return of Rand from Book 4, confident in his plan, wary of his enemies and trusting of his friends.

 

Agreed, and that is what Cadsuane is doing. What RJ did to Rand he did intentionally as part of his arc. Rand is on the wrong path, he has become childish, and yes, with reason. When you get your way from having a temper tantrum you use it. That is, in part, what Cadsuane is addressing with her actions. It may not be pleasent for Rand, nor good for his dignity, but it is the right thing to do.

 

I just wish RJ had chosen a better vehicle than Cadsuane, i see her as the epitome of whats wrong with The current Aes Sedai.

 

Really? I see her as the epitome of what the Aes Sedai have forgotten how to be. She is free of their traditions and customs that bind them. Free of their prejudice and their attempts to look mysterious. Free of the frame of mind that have the Tower locked in the forefront, therefore blinding them to what the world is actually like.

 

In many wasy Cadsuane is one of the most realistically intelligent and down to earth characters in the series.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think RJ has done poorly by Rand, in the latter books he acts more and more childish, and becomes a less and less sympathetic character. I'd really like to see a return of Rand from Book 4, confident in his plan, wary of his enemies and trusting of his friends.

 

 

I don't think RJ has done poorly by Rand, I think part of the story is that Rand is going insane. The paranoia, childish stubborness, and dangerous emotional detachment are all symptoms of a mental disease. Unless and until he is cured, the Rand of book 4 or any other book isn't coming back.

[Guest Majsju]

As I wrote in another thread, I think what Cadsuane is doing to Rand is a very conscious effort to make sure he's as prepared he can possibly be when TG comes.

 

It does have some similarities to what we've heard about Cadsuane's past. She left the White Tower newly raised, and was extremely arrogant about being Aes Sedai, more or less thinking herself invincible. Until that old wilder in the Black Hills taught her a lesson. That has been too strongly referred to for it to not have a meaning later in the books.

 

And incidently, we have Rand who is extremely arrogant, thinking he's more or less invincible, even though he should know better by now after all screw-ups he's done.

 

I think Cadsuane is deliberatly trying to provoke Rand to try to channel against her, and hopefully when he discovers he can't he will learn something from the experience.

[Luckers]

Indeed. I agree with both their posts.

[Diamondmask]

I admit Cadsuane has done a lot for Rand and there is alot in what you guys are saying, but there is something about her that makes me uneasy. Where has she been all these years and what has she been doing? And who with?

 

Still, I hadn't considered the possibility of her readying Rand for TG. It would make sense, but pushing a man who is carrying a madman in his head and is due to go mad himself is a bit dodgy. She should try counseling him over his guilt. That's what will push him over the edge in the end. His insistance on carrying around the names of the woman who have died in his battle is so unhealthy.

[Luckers]

She doesn't know of his guilt... and indeed, counseling Rand is pointless... he would ignore anything but a confrontation, which is why she uses confrontation to approach him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I admit Cadsuane has done a lot for Rand and there is alot in what you guys are saying, but there is something about her that makes me uneasy. Where has she been all these years and what has she been doing? And who with?

 

She's been trying to grow roses in Ghealdan silly. 8)

 

Still, I hadn't considered the possibility of her readying Rand for TG. It would make sense, but pushing a man who is carrying a madman in his head and is due to go mad himself is a bit dodgy. She should try counseling him over his guilt. That's what will push him over the edge in the end. His insistance on carrying around the names of the woman who have died in his battle is so unhealthy.

 

Moiraine is the only one besides his three chickies who even has a shot at helping him with his guilt complex. And Rand isn't "due to go mad", he already is mad. Madness doesn't have to be raving lunacy. Normal people don't get their hand blown off and go *shrug* "Meh".

[Guest Majsju]

Still, I hadn't considered the possibility of her readying Rand for TG. It would make sense, but pushing a man who is carrying a madman in his head and is due to go mad himself is a bit dodgy. She should try counseling him over his guilt. That's what will push him over the edge in the end. His insistance on carrying around the names of the woman who have died in his battle is so unhealthy.

 

If my take on it is correct, what she does is intended to be counseling, just a bit more hands-on than trying to convince him to lie down on the couch and play Freud.

 

Rand wasn't the smartest kid on the block to start with, and with the madness thrown into the mix as well, he might very likely respond better to a more physical approach.

 

I'm kinda looking forward to Cadsuane actually spanking the arrogant brat :lol:

[Jorik Alarin]

I think he is exactly the type of person to push. If he can't handle it now, he wont be able to handle Tarmon Gai'don.

 

Thats preposterous; what on earth would Cadsuane know about dealing with the DO? What would her point of reference be? The fact that she MAY have fought a few dark friends battled some male channelers and perhaps even been the bane to dark sisters? All well and good but, she FOR CERTAIN HASN'T confronted the DO head to head, so her ideas on what Rand needs to do to prepare for TG are as useless as her instructions on weilding Saidin would be. Unless she has gone through certain Ter'angreal. (and remember the three questions one was stored in The Tower, but that opens another hole in the story, if that thing was in the tower why didn't someone go through it and find out where Rand was when he was a baby. Bah the more i think about this series logically the more it falls to pieces.)

 

Its juvenile with a reason. Human beings gain social power by their ability to interact with others, including the ability to stand up to them.

 

This is utter tripe, this is how babies and children learn not to throw tantrums, and the reason it works is because babies, and children dont have the power nor the authority to "enforce" their tantrums. As adults when we encounter someone with power who throws a tantrum, the only way we can make them stop is to get someone with MORE power to make them. Question: Your boss is treating you poorly, and unfairly, do you

 

A: Laugh at him call him a stupid head, dare him to fire you and slap him in the face? OR

B: Get his boss to enforce the company policy, and if that fails get the LAW involved.(im using generic his form here not because i have some cave man like psyche that doesnt think that women can occupy positions of power, but because it is more simple to type)

Which one would you choose?, yeah i thought so B. Because if you chose A then YOU would DESERVE getting fired or worse thrown in jail for assault.

 

And yes Rand is "technically" Cadsuanes boss, she is his "advisor" a position generally thought of as being subservient.

 

Rand has been getting his way via the use of temper tantrums for several books now, and that is dangerous. Indeed what Cadsuane is doing is exactly what she should, its how we learn not to use tantrums... specifically being people who neither cower away, nor react in kind, but choose instead to ridicule, laugh at and dismiss our actions. This brings about more subtle forms of power usage. And more specifically it teaches us control. If losing your temper just gets you laughed at, or makes you look like a fool, you learn to keep it. Stereotypically this is when banter would become a tool, but i dont think that is Cadsuane's desire. She is trying to teach Rand control in the face of opposition and that true power comes from calmly concidered reaction, not emotional outbursts.

 

All i get from this paragraph is Rand is a big tantrumy baby and although cadsuane is using completely terrible methods, Rand deserves the abuse. Shes right because shes Aes Sedai?

 

Can any of you really imagine Cadsuane acting that way to any other ruler with Rands level of power

 

Use the rest of my quote please, i said "level of power....like Pedron Niall", and yes i chose him for the very fact that he was in charge of the whitecloaks, and yes they wouldn't tolerate Cadsuanes nonsense for a tenth of a hundredth of a second, and therefore she would be forced to treat him with respect, and as an equal. She does neither with Rand.

 

Er... she's kidnapped kings of Arad Domon and Tarbon and 'paddled their bottoms'. She had the Ambassador of the Sea Folk spanked, and Aes Sedai have faired no better against her. Its even rumoured she assaulted an Amyrlin.

 

I've never read anywhere that shes assaulted the Amyrlin, please link me a SPECIFIC quote that says that.And not some hodgey podgey obscure maybe that say its"possible" that 200 years ago she might have spanked a woman that was to become the Amyrlin, the other examples used are dismissable as they NEVER have had anything CLOSE to Rands power.

 

Agreed, and that is what Cadsuane is doing. What RJ did to Rand he did intentionally as part of his arc. Rand is on the wrong path, he has become childish, and yes, with reason. When you get your way from having a temper tantrum you use it. That is, in part, what Cadsuane is addressing with her actions. It may not be pleasent for Rand, nor good for his dignity, but it is the right thing to do.

 

So in your opinion her inflicting psychological harm to an already damaged person is the "best" way to turn him around? I thank the stars you aren't counciling suicidal people. Which i truly think Rand is at this juncture, he has no real desire to live, he just wants to get to the place and time where he can die and end his "pain" and save the world.

 

 

Really? I see her as the epitome of what the Aes Sedai have forgotten how to be. She is free of their traditions and customs that bind them. Free of their prejudice and their attempts to look mysterious. Free of the frame of mind that have the Tower locked in the forefront, therefore blinding them to what the world is actually like.

In many wasy Cadsuane is one of the most realistically intelligent and down to earth characters in the series.

 

LOL that whole spiel makes me laugh, Cadsuane is the pinnacle of all the things wrong with Aes Sedai, shes arrogant to the EXTREME, she thinks her way is the only way and she treats EVERYONE she encounters as inferior. Thats what ALL Aes Sedai aspire too, she is held up as a legendary figure in Aes Sedai mythology and she is talked about with awe and fear. But i notice she is never talked about with true respect, and thats because true respect is a two way street and Cadsuane only knows how to drive one way.

 

Anyway this is just a story, and none of these people are real, so conjecture and hypothesis aside the only real way to see what is..... is to read what RJ writes, and only after he gets better.

[racha_giurgiu]

ORDERLY!!!!! Luckers, Robert, anyone>?? help! Help!

[Graendals favourite]

I think Cadsuane is absolutely right in what she does, just up to her to decide what is the best course of action. I think Verin thought Cadsuane had the best shot too when she left him. Rand still hasn't learned that he isn't omnipotent. He's far from it, and he can't even grasp saidin without fainting or be certain it isn't a madman who might destroy the world the next instant who controls the Power. A large part of the Asha'man may be out of his control too.

 

I think Cadsuane has made it clear she doesn't serve Rand, but advises him because he asked him to. Of course because of her ter'angreal, she could paddle his bottom if she wanted to.

 

Anyway, Rand may have some idea of what's to come, but likely Verin et co shouldn't be dismissed in that. Only at the moment none of them would trust Rand to know too much, since he doesn't look like listening to advice.

[Luckers]

This is utter tripe, this is how babies and children learn not to throw tantrums, and the reason it works is because babies, and children dont have the power nor the authority to "enforce" their tantrums. As adults when we encounter someone with power who throws a tantrum, the only way we can make them stop is to get someone with MORE power to make them.

 

Cadsuane is strong enough to go toe to toe with Rand and walk away from it intact, whatever her political position, that puts her perfectly in the position to respond to Rand's tantrums.

 

All i get from this paragraph is Rand is a big tantrumy baby and although cadsuane is using completely terrible methods, Rand deserves the abuse.

 

Cadsuane is using the only methods that will work.

 

Use the rest of my quote please, i said "level of power....like Pedron Niall", and yes i chose him for the very fact that he was in charge of the whitecloaks, and yes they wouldn't tolerate Cadsuanes nonsense for a tenth of a hundredth of a second, and therefore she would be forced to treat him with respect, and as an equal. She does neither with Rand.

 

I'm sorry... you think she would have treated Pedron Niall like an equal? If she can kidnap kings and queens she can kidnap one old man whose army is less then negligable in numbers.

 

I've never read anywhere that shes assaulted the Amyrlin, please link me a SPECIFIC quote that says that.And not some hodgey podgey obscure maybe that say its"possible" that 200 years ago she might have spanked a woman that was to become the Amyrlin, the other examples used are dismissable as they NEVER have had anything CLOSE to Rands power.

 

You don't really see the real world do you? Your quote is in New Spring, when Suine and Moiraine speak of Cadsuane.

 

And now i am done with you. I have no time for contentious fools.

[liatildina]

Touche Luckers, well done.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thats preposterous; what on earth would Cadsuane know about dealing with the DO? What would her point of reference be? The fact that she MAY have fought a few dark friends battled some male channelers and perhaps even been the bane to dark sisters? All well and good but, she FOR CERTAIN HASN'T confronted the DO head to head, so her ideas on what Rand needs to do to prepare for TG are as useless as her instructions on weilding Saidin would be. Unless she has gone through certain Ter'angreal. (and remember the three questions one was stored in The Tower, but that opens another hole in the story, if that thing was in the tower why didn't someone go through it and find out where Rand was when he was a baby. Bah the more i think about this series logically the more it falls to pieces.)

 

The ter'angreal that allowed people to ask three questions of the Aelfinn was in Mayene, and then Tear, not ever in the White Tower. And as far as preparing Rand for Tarmon Gai'don, she is not preparing him in the sense of coaching him for a wrestling match with Shai'tan, she's teaching him how to be a responsible human so that IF he wins, he won't obliterate half the world anyway. He's on the verge of becoming the most heinous autocrat.

 

This is utter tripe, this is how babies and children learn not to throw tantrums, and the reason it works is because babies, and children dont have the power nor the authority to "enforce" their tantrums. As adults when we encounter someone with power who throws a tantrum, the only way we can make them stop is to get someone with MORE power to make them.

 

Power is more than just the ability to channel. If you can affect the mind of the person channeling through wisdom, knowledge, and experience, then you are, in that sense, more powerful. Cadsuane is winning the battle she is choosing to fight, the battle for Rand's mind. Its not a battle fought with the power, and in the arena she has chosen, she is Rand's superior by FAR.

 

Use the rest of my quote please, i said "level of power....like Pedron Niall", and yes i chose him for the very fact that he was in charge of the whitecloaks, and yes they wouldn't tolerate Cadsuanes nonsense for a tenth of a hundredth of a second, and therefore she would be forced to treat him with respect, and as an equal. She does neither with Rand.

 

Actually, she shows Rand great respect: she follows the rules that HE agreed to. She treats him like a person, not a prophecy. When he's an idiot, she says so, and when he isn't, she backs him up. There is not another Aes Sedai on the planet who would have been either able or willing to protect him while he used the Choedan Kal to cleanse the taint.

 

And yes Rand is "technically" Cadsuanes boss, she is his "advisor" a position generally thought of as being subservient.

 

I assume by "generally thought of as" you mean "this is what I think". Having myself been in supervisory, managerial, and command situations (and there is a difference between each) I can tell you that Rand would be a fool to think of an advisor in Cadsuane's position as "subservient". Actually, the attitude you've expressed is one of Rand's symptoms, and it is part of what Cadsuane is trying to cure.

 

Use the rest of my quote please, i said "level of power....like Pedron Niall", and yes i chose him for the very fact that he was in charge of the whitecloaks, and yes they wouldn't tolerate Cadsuanes nonsense for a tenth of a hundredth of a second, and therefore she would be forced to treat him with respect, and as an equal. She does neither with Rand.

 

I seriously doubt Cadsuane would put herself in a situation where Pedron Niall, Eamon Valda, Galadedrid Damodred, or any other Whitecloak Lord Captain Commander could have forced her to do anything. Power is not all channeling. Cadsuane does what she does because she can use her INTELLIGENCE as well as the Power.

 

I've never read anywhere that shes assaulted the Amyrlin, please link me a SPECIFIC quote that says that.And not some hodgey podgey obscure maybe that say its"possible" that 200 years ago she might have spanked a woman that was to become the Amyrlin, the other examples used are dismissable as they NEVER have had anything CLOSE to Rands power.

 

Your point is irrelevant. Cadsuane is not using the Power on Rand, nor vice versa. There are forms of power other than the Power.

 

So in your opinion her inflicting psychological harm to an already damaged person is the "best" way to turn him around? I thank the stars you aren't counciling suicidal people. Which i truly think Rand is at this juncture, he has no real desire to live, he just wants to get to the place and time where he can die and end his "pain" and save the world.

 

Cadsuane has inflicted NO psychological damage on Rand al'Thor. Quite the opposite. Sometimes harsh appraisals of reality ARE the best cure for someone wallowing in depression. Remember how Min snapped Rand out of his funk after he thought he had raped her? She wasn't exactly gentle. Rand has built walls within himself.

 

You underestimate Rand and Cadsuane both. Rand can take what she is dishing, and she knows it, or she would use other tactics. Cadsuane is showing more respect for Rand by holding him accountable than you are by suggesting he should be coddled.

 

Anyway this is just a story, and none of these people are real, so conjecture and hypothesis aside the only real way to see what is..... is to read what RJ writes, and only after he gets better.

 

While that is true, RJ has shown himself to be quite a student of human nature, so asessing the characters in a realistic fashion is not unreasonable.

[Jorik Alarin]

" Supposedly even Amyrlins had stepped warily around Cadsuane over the years. It was whispered that she had actually assaulted an Amyrlin, once."

 

New Spring, pgs. 228-229 Moiraine is confronting Cadsuane for the first time. This is what i meant by rumor and conjecture, the whole preceeding paragraph in that passage talks about Cadsuanes deeds, the improbability of them, and her successes. This is where i came up with my quote about her being right just enough times to inure her to the possiblity of being wrong. Also, she is a terribly self centered person. This particular passage shows just what kind of "Servant of All" Cadsuane is. "It was said she bent Tower law where it suited her, flouted custom, went her own way and often dragged others with her." also "a good many sisters probably wished her truly in her grave." Consumate Aes Sedai there, doing whatever she wants to, throwing around her powers and making even members of her own organization wish her ill, yeah she's great. Sound like a familiar farm boy having tantrums, and getting his way? At least he has the excuse that he's possibly "insane" and the fate of the world is riding on his shoulders, what's her reasoning? She knows better than anybody else? That sounds awfully arrogant to me.

 

The comment on using the ONLY methods that work. How the hell would she know? She has never tried any other methods. Her modus operandi in the saga was one of puffed up importance from the beginning.

 

If Pedron Niall was such easy meat, then why didn't the White Tower deal with him? As for his army being negligible, He happened to run a whole Kingdom just by the virtue of that "negligible" army.

 

And you still can't refute the fact that her method (abusing the one you are supposed to be trying to help) being used on an already borderline personality, is a poor decision.

 

So Luckers, it appears to me that the only thing you are "done" with is having a conversation about a subject with someone who has a diametrically opposed view to your own, and the knowledge to back up their arguments.

 

Unfortunately you felt it necessary to resort to personal insults in this debate, i may think your reasoning and examples are worthy of scorn, but i never attacked your mental faculties nor your will to fight.

[RobertAlexWillis]

New Spring, pgs. 228-229 Moiraine is confronting Cadsuane for the first time. This is what i meant by rumor and conjecture, the whole preceeding paragraph in that passage talks about Cadsuanes deeds, the improbability of them, and her successes. This is where i came up with my quote about her being right just enough times to inure her to the possiblity of being wrong. Also, she is a terribly self centered person. This particular passage shows just what kind of "Servant of All" Cadsuane is. "It was said she bent Tower law where it suited her, flouted custom, went her own way and often dragged others with her." also "a good many sisters probably wished her truly in her grave." Consumate Aes Sedai there, doing whatever she wants to, throwing around her powers and making even members of her own organization wish her ill, yeah she's great. Sound like a familiar farm boy having tantrums, and getting his way? At least he has the excuse that he's possibly "insane" and the fate of the world is riding on his shoulders, what's her reasoning? She knows better than anybody else? That sounds awfully arrogant to me.

 

Are you seriously contending that frequent use of a pronoun in a thought stream by one person about another person is evidence of self-centeredness?

 

The comment on using the ONLY methods that work. How the hell would she know? She has never tried any other methods. Her modus operandi in the saga was one of puffed up importance from the beginning.

 

Its a little something called experience. The beginning of where we see Cadsuane in the saga is after she's been kicking around for a few hundred years. As much as the very young love to discount it, experience matters, and she's got alot of it. As for trying any other methods, what, you think she should be experimenting with Rand? Changing her approach frequently? That would engender well-earned distrust. Rand may not LIKE Cadsuane all the time, but he knows he can trust her, because she isn't a lickspittle. That trust is a thousand more times valuable than lots of touchy feely moments. Rand has his harem for those.

 

If Pedron Niall was such easy meat, then why didn't the White Tower deal with him?

 

How about The Three Oaths? And besides, name an Aes Sedai that Pedron Niall had his way with?

 

And you still can't refute the fact that her method (abusing the one you are supposed to be trying to help) being used on an already borderline personality, is a poor decision.

 

You can't prove that what she is doing is abusive, or that it is a poor decision. The ONLY thing you have there is you own bald assertion. In fact, the simple fact that Rand has another advisor he can TRUST is evidence AGAINST your claim that it is a her methods are a "bad decision".

[Jorik Alarin]

I assume by "generally thought of as" you mean "this is what I think". Having myself been in supervisory, managerial, and command situations (and there is a difference between each) I can tell you that Rand would be a fool to think of an advisor in Cadsuane's position as "subservient". Actually, the attitude you've expressed is one of Rand's symptoms, and it is part of what Cadsuane is trying to cure.

 

No, i mean that when a person thinks of an advisor to Royalty, Presidents, CEO's and others in a position of leadership, they don't tend to think that the advisor has the same authority as the one they advise. If an advisor "advised" a CEO to fire someone would that person be fired? No, because that advisor doesnt have the authority to fire anyone, and is therefore in a subservient position. It would take the CEO's authority to fire that person, and therfore the advisor is subordinate to the advised in function. Subservient: Subordinate in capacity or function. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subservient

As for my "attitude" Do you presume i think that Cadsuane should be Rands lap dog? Well, let me assure you i do not, but neither do i think that she has any right to act the way she does and i think her methods of council are barbaric and unecessary. There must be another way to reach him, and i consider it her biggest failing that she must resort to such tactics to get through to him, i mean she has had hundreds of years to come up with ways of dealing with men who can channel and might possibly be insane, and her best therapy is insult, abuse, and assault?

 

As for the Ter'angreal, you are correct, it was in Tear, not the White Tower. My Brain sped ahead of my typing. But i still believe that the sisters that knew about it could have snuck in and asked about TDR. I would honestly think that an Aes Sedai with the ability to smuggle out rulers of nations in the middle of the night would have the ability to enter a place where Aes Sedai are illegal, and sneak into a barely guarded store room.

 

Cadsuane could very well be more intelligent than Rand, hell at her age i'd think that she'd have to be senile not to be. And thats the kicker, shes that old ,that wise,and that knowledgeable, and her best tactic is ridicule and assault, i take that back there is no way shes smarter than Rand, she's not even smarter than Bela.

 

No, im not contending that she is self centered by the use of a pro-noun, although when used as evidence against my arguments quotes from idle musings of an Aes Sedai seem to do. I contend that she is self centered as shown through her acts throughout the series.

 

If she is so damned experienced then why does she still use the tactics that she does? And the ONLY reason Rand trusts her is because MIN, said he was going to learn something from her, something important. He certainly didnt start out trusting her from any of her own actions. I think that if Min had said anything different than what she did that Rand would have sent her away, and not permitted her to be anywhere near him, yes that speaks volumes for his trust of Cadsuane.