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Harvster7

Bode Leashed by Seanchan

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Am I missing something here? Why on earth would Matt be So'jhin to Tuon? I realize that Egeanin had Domon as So'jhin, but she also captured him and married him while a member of the Low Blood. Matt kidnapped Tuon and she married him while she was still his prisoner, so the same situation clearly doesn't apply here. We also have no mention of the former Empress' husband being a So'jhin. I can't imagine the Prince of Ravens being property in any case though, since the rest of the Imperial family isn't property nor are the Blood.

 

Mat being her so'jihn was just me thinking out loud, I have since abandoned that idea, pay it no mind :biggrin:

 

The only reason I was thinking along those lines is because I believed and still do believe that The Prince of the Ravens "rule" is over the property of the Imperial family.

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You're giving Ishamael too much credit. IIRC in the books it is recalled that Ishamael barely had to whisper in Hawkwings ear. The eternal hatred and contempt for channelers was entirely Hawkwings. This innate focused hatred, paranoia and inherent distrust of channelers was brought with Hawkwings son and heir over the Aryth ocean and we can see how that turned out (collars/damanes/etc..).

 

And boy did Hawkwing hate channelers. Giving an ungodly sum of gold for anyone who murdered an Aes Sedai, decapitated her and brought the head to the authorities. Besiege Tar Valon itself. Then as he lay dying rather embrace death than have a filthy channeler touch or save him.

 

No Ishamael himself takes the credit.

 

( The Eye of the World, Chapter 14)

 

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

So comedy how you consistently twist things with just enough truth to sound plausible. Hawkwing worked with and had an Aes Sedai advisor up until the age of 62 . Yes he had some rough patches with Aes Sedai over the years but still had them as a part of his court until Jalwin Moerad showed up and worked across 20+ years to poison Hawkwings mind. It was only then that Hawkwing's most drastic moves were taken.

 

 

Note the "IIRC." Also none of what I said is wrong. I said that all Ishamael had to do was whisper (no compulsion was needed), which implies the roots and seeds were long planted and blooming. From what I recall Hawkwing has been at odds with the Aes Sedai since the Amalasan affair, which then later only exacerbated once the Aes Sedai sought to smash his Empire to pieces by coercion.

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back to the original topic, i would feel sorry for anybody that put a leash on Mat's sis. He is the best general in the world, has a personal army, and is also the inventor of the modern cannon. I'd say he would get her back whatever it took... Which might include destroying the Seanchan government, (but sparing his lovely wife, of course). Actually now that i say that, i kind of hope they leash her, just to get to see mat slap the shit out of them again. And doesn't he say that the next time he will see tuon will be on opposite sides of a battle field? Foreshadowing maybe.

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back to the original topic, i would feel sorry for anybody that put a leash on Mat's sis. He is the best general in the world, has a personal army, and is also the inventor of the modern cannon. I'd say he would get her back whatever it took... Which might include destroying the Seanchan government, (but sparing his lovely wife, of course). Actually now that i say that, i kind of hope they leash her, just to get to see mat slap the shit out of them again. And doesn't he say that the next time he will see tuon will be on opposite sides of a battle field? Foreshadowing maybe.

 

 

It's doubtful he would even remember her face.

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back to the original topic, i would feel sorry for anybody that put a leash on Mat's sis. He is the best general in the world, has a personal army, and is also the inventor of the modern cannon. I'd say he would get her back whatever it took... Which might include destroying the Seanchan government, (but sparing his lovely wife, of course). Actually now that i say that, i kind of hope they leash her, just to get to see mat slap the shit out of them again. And doesn't he say that the next time he will see tuon will be on opposite sides of a battle field? Foreshadowing maybe.

 

 

It's doubtful he would even remember her face.

 

He doesn't have to. Seanchan attack WT, Bode is leashed. Egwene tells Mat that his sis has been leashed and is now damane(Most unlikely part of whole theory), then Mat borrows a two rivers man from perrin and tells him, point out my sister when you see her so i know who to save.

Honestly, im just trying to find a reason to get to see mat whoop on the Ever Victorious Army.

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back to the original topic, i would feel sorry for anybody that put a leash on Mat's sis. He is the best general in the world, has a personal army, and is also the inventor of the modern cannon. I'd say he would get her back whatever it took... Which might include destroying the Seanchan government, (but sparing his lovely wife, of course). Actually now that i say that, i kind of hope they leash her, just to get to see mat slap the shit out of them again. And doesn't he say that the next time he will see tuon will be on opposite sides of a battle field? Foreshadowing maybe.

 

 

It's doubtful he would even remember her face.

 

He doesn't have to. Seanchan attack WT, Bode is leashed. Egwene tells Mat that his sis has been leashed and is now damane(Most unlikely part of whole theory), then Mat borrows a two rivers man from perrin and tells him, point out my sister when you see her so i know who to save.

Honestly, im just trying to find a reason to get to see mat whoop on the Ever Victorious Army.

 

So he crosses his own wife to assist a sister he cannot even remember? This seems highly doubtful. Also I don't see Mat entering a military conflict with the Seanchan since he through his marriage will be given a high noble station. Mat in 10 years from now will probably walk around with a shaved head and highly embroidered armor.

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back to the original topic, i would feel sorry for anybody that put a leash on Mat's sis. He is the best general in the world, has a personal army, and is also the inventor of the modern cannon. I'd say he would get her back whatever it took... Which might include destroying the Seanchan government, (but sparing his lovely wife, of course). Actually now that i say that, i kind of hope they leash her, just to get to see mat slap the shit out of them again. And doesn't he say that the next time he will see tuon will be on opposite sides of a battle field? Foreshadowing maybe.

 

 

It's doubtful he would even remember her face.

 

He doesn't have to. Seanchan attack WT, Bode is leashed. Egwene tells Mat that his sis has been leashed and is now damane(Most unlikely part of whole theory), then Mat borrows a two rivers man from perrin and tells him, point out my sister when you see her so i know who to save.

Honestly, im just trying to find a reason to get to see mat whoop on the Ever Victorious Army.

 

So he crosses his own wife to assist a sister he cannot even remember? This seems highly doubtful. Also I don't see Mat entering a military conflict with the Seanchan since he through his marriage will be given a high noble station. Mat in 10 years from now will probably walk around with a shaved head and highly embroidered armor.

 

When Tuon leaves his company in KOD, Mat says the next time we meet will most likely be on opposite sides of the battle field. Also he gets angry with Aludra (in his head at least) for showing the Deathwatch gaurd too much when they fight together, indicating that they will in fact fight again. And i seriously doubt that somebody who has enough self respect to not want to be a lord (like mat) will end up walking around with a shaved head and such. For him, going to war with the seanchan does not equal crossing his wife. Nor do i think that Tuon would see it that way since thats probally what every other prince of the ravens has done (tuon saying it would be nice to have a p.o.r. that didn't try to kill her) Simple answer to your first question, yes. or are you saying that he would allow her to remain damane?? that i doubt more than him acting the lord.

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Why would Matt not remember his sister?

He's not like Birgitte, where her memories are fading.

Mat had some holes but most of them were concentrated to when the dagger's taint had the heaviest hold on him.

 

If he didn't remember his sister, he wouldn't of told Perrin to let his family know that he was all right before Perrin left for the Two Rivers from Tear, he wouldn't of remembered his ma's sweet pies or half the mischief he got into in his youth.

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Why would Matt not remember his sister?

He's not like Birgitte, where her memories are fading.

Mat had some holes but most of them were concentrated to when the dagger's taint had the heaviest hold on him.

 

If he didn't remember his sister, he wouldn't of told Perrin to let his family know that he was all right before Perrin left for the Two Rivers from Tear, he wouldn't of remembered his ma's sweet pies or half the mischief he got into in his youth.

 

I believe he thinks to himself somewhere that he can't remember Bode's face.

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So he crosses his own wife to assist a sister he cannot even remember? This seems highly doubtful. Also I don't see Mat entering a military conflict with the Seanchan since he through his marriage will be given a high noble station. Mat in 10 years from now will probably walk around with a shaved head and highly embroidered armor.

 

This is the same Mat who rescued Aes Sedai who he owed nothing toward and then Moiraine in Finnland. He gripes but does what is right.

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Which is mostly because of his memories of mature and wise leaders. Mat as the persona is simply a mischievous boy in a man's body who has through the Finn's been gifted/cursed with the memories/lives of countless generals, kings and warriors.

 

Why would Mat be better than Hawkwing? Please explain. He only has the memory of men who lost to Hawkwing and he himself is a weaker Ta'veren than Hawkwing.

 

A constant theme (this word is so overused) that has been present in the series is growth through circumstance. The two other Ta'veren have both echoed Mat's developments through their own struggles. Of the three however, Mat is the one to most retain much of his mannerisms and habits. If it was a comparison it would likely be: Rand, Perrin, Mat; in terms of how closely they have stuck to their original character traits. This does not mean he hasn't grown, it's just a different type of growth than is shown throughout. There have been times when Mat would have shirked some of the tasks given to him (actually, I believe there was one such instance where he left Rand to go his own way) but there is no doubt he accepts the burden of responsibility IMO.

 

Also, he'd be better than Hawkwing because he has lived tons more lives (at least in memory), and participated in tons more battles, not to mention he can learn from those losses he's suffered. He has the edge on Hawkwing in experience by leaps and bounds, and he's not that far off Ta'veren wise. Your reasons why he wouldn't be better work against you.

 

Note the "IIRC." Also none of what I said is wrong. I said that all Ishamael had to do was whisper (no compulsion was needed), which implies the roots and seeds were long planted and blooming. From what I recall Hawkwing has been at odds with the Aes Sedai since the Amalasan affair, which then later only exacerbated once the Aes Sedai sought to smash his Empire to pieces by coercion.

 

IMO you're taking Ishamael's words too literally here. It seems a more literary (and hence, figurative) than literal use of the word whisper. If I wanted to play up my power, I'd say I merely had to whisper too. Perhaps compulsion is no greater a feat to him than whispering.

 

So he crosses his own wife to assist a sister he cannot even remember? This seems highly doubtful. Also I don't see Mat entering a military conflict with the Seanchan since he through his marriage will be given a high noble station. Mat in 10 years from now will probably walk around with a shaved head and highly embroidered armor.

 

I'm quite sure it never said he couldn't remember growing up, just what they look like. And once again you're downplaying Mat's history of stepping up to his responsibility. Even if he does barely know his sister, the fact remains that she is his sister and he will feel something. He's saved lesser people for less.

 

Anyway, your point about Mat not being able to change the Seanchan is not particularly true. He has but to influence Tuon, and keep her alive (more than possible thanks to his Ta'veren nature). The Seanchan will then fall in line, in time. With conflicts, yes, but with time. Add to this the fact that he will probably garner their respect (and fear) through his battle prowess and he can change certain customs simply through that. The Seanchan as they were cannot exist anymore. Their homeland is in chaos and the LB looms, which will dwindle their numbers in Randland and introduce them to things they did not believe existed. Admittedly Aviendha's trip through the rings contradicts this but, considering what they have, and will meet, I just don't find it likely that they continue that existence. Mat's Ta'verenity (so much better than Ta'vereness) is perhaps the pattern setting the Seanchan right again. There's no reason to believe he can't somehow. Hawkwing's Ta'veren trait was not purposefully set at forming the Seanchan, and it is not a case of "Hawkwing couldn't keep them straight, so Mat shouldn't be able to".

 

At the same time, I don't want it to seem like I am picking on your posts (I realize they're the only ones I've quoted) but there are meaningful counterpoints to what you've said so securely. I do agree that Mat is immature and mischievous, but to a point and at certain times and in certain places. When things have to be done he gets them done and he is as much a man as Perrin.

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A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

So by saying 'likely' your saying chances are he's more likely to change than the Seanchan (spelling)... You do realize that by laying anything to CHANCE with Mat the odds are always stacked in his favor, right? This is a man that diced a guy using loaded dice and beat the throw using the same dice, which is the least of his outrageous chance related activities.

Edited by sfgiantsfanmike

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Which is mostly because of his memories of mature and wise leaders. Mat as the persona is simply a mischievous boy in a man's body who has through the Finn's been gifted/cursed with the memories/lives of countless generals, kings and warriors.

 

Why would Mat be better than Hawkwing? Please explain. He only has the memory of men who lost to Hawkwing and he himself is a weaker Ta'veren than Hawkwing.

 

A constant theme (this word is so overused) that has been present in the series is growth through circumstance. The two other Ta'veren have both echoed Mat's developments through their own struggles. Of the three however, Mat is the one to most retain much of his mannerisms and habits. If it was a comparison it would likely be: Rand, Perrin, Mat; in terms of how closely they have stuck to their original character traits. This does not mean he hasn't grown, it's just a different type of growth than is shown throughout. There have been times when Mat would have shirked some of the tasks given to him (actually, I believe there was one such instance where he left Rand to go his own way) but there is no doubt he accepts the burden of responsibility IMO.

 

Also, he'd be better than Hawkwing because he has lived tons more lives (at least in memory), and participated in tons more battles, not to mention he can learn from those losses he's suffered. He has the edge on Hawkwing in experience by leaps and bounds, and he's not that far off Ta'veren wise. Your reasons why he wouldn't be better work against you.

 

Note the "IIRC." Also none of what I said is wrong. I said that all Ishamael had to do was whisper (no compulsion was needed), which implies the roots and seeds were long planted and blooming. From what I recall Hawkwing has been at odds with the Aes Sedai since the Amalasan affair, which then later only exacerbated once the Aes Sedai sought to smash his Empire to pieces by coercion.

 

IMO you're taking Ishamael's words too literally here. It seems a more literary (and hence, figurative) than literal use of the word whisper. If I wanted to play up my power, I'd say I merely had to whisper too. Perhaps compulsion is no greater a feat to him than whispering.

 

So he crosses his own wife to assist a sister he cannot even remember? This seems highly doubtful. Also I don't see Mat entering a military conflict with the Seanchan since he through his marriage will be given a high noble station. Mat in 10 years from now will probably walk around with a shaved head and highly embroidered armor.

 

I'm quite sure it never said he couldn't remember growing up, just what they look like. And once again you're downplaying Mat's history of stepping up to his responsibility. Even if he does barely know his sister, the fact remains that she is his sister and he will feel something. He's saved lesser people for less.

 

Anyway, your point about Mat not being able to change the Seanchan is not particularly true. He has but to influence Tuon, and keep her alive (more than possible thanks to his Ta'veren nature). The Seanchan will then fall in line, in time. With conflicts, yes, but with time. Add to this the fact that he will probably garner their respect (and fear) through his battle prowess and he can change certain customs simply through that. The Seanchan as they were cannot exist anymore. Their homeland is in chaos and the LB looms, which will dwindle their numbers in Randland and introduce them to things they did not believe existed. Admittedly Aviendha's trip through the rings contradicts this but, considering what they have, and will meet, I just don't find it likely that they continue that existence. Mat's Ta'verenity (so much better than Ta'vereness) is perhaps the pattern setting the Seanchan right again. There's no reason to believe he can't somehow. Hawkwing's Ta'veren trait was not purposefully set at forming the Seanchan, and it is not a case of "Hawkwing couldn't keep them straight, so Mat shouldn't be able to".

 

At the same time, I don't want it to seem like I am picking on your posts (I realize they're the only ones I've quoted) but there are meaningful counterpoints to what you've said so securely. I do agree that Mat is immature and mischievous, but to a point and at certain times and in certain places. When things have to be done he gets them done and he is as much a man as Perrin.

 

While I generally agree with you, I would note that Mat's Ta'verenity may end after Tarmon Gaidon. Depends on what the Pattern wants of him.

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