Bode Leashed by Seanchan

[Finnssss22]

I still believe his "rule" will be over the property of the Empress though.

Including Selucia?

 

I suspect he will merely be the highest of the High Blood, and his responsibilities will be whatever the Empress, mslf, decides they are.

 

Naw, I'm pretty confident in my theory on this one, we shall see.

[Mah'alleinir2803]

I await the scene where a Mat with shaved head and in Seanchan noble regalia appears in front of the other main characters.

 

I hope this never happens.

 

I don't think it will.Mat is not going to change who he is just because he married a flaming noble If anyone is going to change, it will be the Seanchan, Mat will see to that

[akira.taylor]

I await the scene where a Mat with shaved head and in Seanchan noble regalia appears in front of the other main characters.

 

I hope this never happens.

 

I don't think it will.Mat is not going to change who he is just because he married a flaming noble If anyone is going to change, it will be the Seanchan, Mat will see to that

 

You know, it does seem likely that Mat will change the Seanchan than that the Seanchan will change Mat. I wonder if that is just our bias in Mat's favor (and, at least to an extent, against the Seanchan)?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

[akira.taylor]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

 

 

Just how Obama promised change? Mat isn't even the de-facto leader of the Seanchan. He is merely the consort of the ruling Empress. I present you a similar situation, would Gawyn have a big influence in being able to change the ways of the Aes Sedai because he is married to Egwene who is Amyrlin?

[Mah'alleinir2803]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

 

 

Just how Obama promised change? Mat isn't even the de-facto leader of the Seanchan. He is merely the consort of the ruling Empress. I present you a similar situation, would Gawyn have a big influence in being able to change the ways of the Aes Sedai because he is married to Egwene who is Amyrlin?

 

When did we start talking about real world politics? And yes we'll see, I really hope Mat doesn't go all Seanchan on us. He is Ta'veren after all :P

[Mandro]

He is not a Manchild, he is a man, who resents having spent the last 2 years trapped into a strand that he doesn't understand. A Manchild wouldn't make the decision that matt made near the end of ToM. Just because a guy likes a drink and a gamble, doesn't mean he's a child, it means he likes a drink and a gamble. Matt has been formulating battle plans, successfully, facing the greatest dangers the world believed possible and more. Matt has made a point of promoting advancement in the technology of battle, and the appropriate tactics to apply them. Matt has raised (in an odd way) a young boy for almost 2 years into a noble young man, Matt has transitioned from a farmboy and horse trader into the greatest general since (and likely better than) Hawkwing. Matt is integral to the success of the last battle, and ability to bring enough order to the world to allow for victory. Matt is always willing to answer a call, though he complains, and is successful. Matt Is loyal, obedient, honorable and successful, and not once did he chose any of it, yet he does it anyways.

 

But he likes a drink and a gamble here and there.

 

Ever heard the military joke, "the first amendment of an infantryman is that they are allowed to complain, as long as noone can hear them."

 

Mat Has given a whole crapton to the world in just 2 years, to minimize him as a manboy is silly.

[Mandro]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

 

 

Just how Obama promised change? Mat isn't even the de-facto leader of the Seanchan. He is merely the consort of the ruling Empress. I present you a similar situation, would Gawyn have a big influence in being able to change the ways of the Aes Sedai because he is married to Egwene who is Amyrlin?

 

The Obama thing is trite.

 

As for comparing mat to gawyn? really? A whiny noble who chose a side in a dispute that he really wasn't a part of. Gawyn wasn't there to represent the white tower, only to learn from the warders as the first prince of the sword, but he gave into his petulant anger against Siuan to lash out at her followers during the battle of the towers breaking. Then without any info, decided to hate the saviour of the world because he heard rumors, decided so strongly that he ignored the words of the woman he claims to love when they meet in carhien, then He takes part in the capture and torture (not directly) of the saviour of the world that the love he proclaims stated was innocent by protecting individuals that he saved only weeks or months before, who he is sure are trying to kill him off in a field accident. THEN! Like an angry puppy needing attention, he abandons "his men," to nip at the heals of another presumed feud, leaving his men rudderless, and confused, since none of the younglings are sworn to the tower, only training there, to rescue the love he proclaims from something that she doesn't not want to be rescued from.

 

Matt? He walked as a farmboy into a city filled with enemies, sure to save his life, but also the horn, he fought in falme, and he blew the horn (I hate that term) He rode forward beside perrin, and The dragon, and the dragons banner. He then escaped the aes sedai, rescued a lovely maiden (eludra) nearly died out of a following chivalrous act, combated dark friends, stood up to the entirety of the queens guard simply to keep his word, stopped a plot against that same person who he gave his word to, chased down their attackers, killed some of them, faced the defenders of the stone not knowing who was around the next corner, rescued his friends and their friends, fought off atttack after attack. Protected his poker buddies when he could have just fled, protected his friends when he could have just fled. Travels to a new environment, takes a risk, which imagine doing that yourself surrounded by people who would kill you just because you are a wetlander, to enter an unfamiliar place with no known reason, then get hanged, get brought back to life while standing next to the man that is destined to bring about a new breaking and calling him friend, all while having your head effed with, again combating darkfriends, having to kill a lover who was focused on killing him, organizing a war, when war was something that happened elsewhere all the time you lived until now, and then being drawn back into the roll of a tactical commander, leading people you never met, against an enemy more experienced and trained than you, just so you can survive long enough to link up with your base troops to supply support, and then finally getting drawn into a solo combat against the man who started the whole thing, and winning.

 

and I stopped at TFoH.

 

Yeah, My bet is on Matt. Gawyns a little whiny (expletive) which explains why arrogant selfish stupid eqwene likes him.

[Finnssss22]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

 

 

Just how Obama promised change? Mat isn't even the de-facto leader of the Seanchan. He is merely the consort of the ruling Empress. I present you a similar situation, would Gawyn have a big influence in being able to change the ways of the Aes Sedai because he is married to Egwene who is Amyrlin?

 

The Obama thing is trite.

 

As for comparing mat to gawyn? really? A whiny noble who chose a side in a dispute that he really wasn't a part of. Gawyn wasn't there to represent the white tower, only to learn from the warders as the first prince of the sword, but he gave into his petulant anger against Siuan to lash out at her followers during the battle of the towers breaking. Then without any info, decided to hate the saviour of the world because he heard rumors, decided so strongly that he ignored the words of the woman he claims to love when they meet in carhien, then He takes part in the capture and torture (not directly) of the saviour of the world that the love he proclaims stated was innocent by protecting individuals that he saved only weeks or months before, who he is sure are trying to kill him off in a field accident. THEN! Like an angry puppy needing attention, he abandons "his men," to nip at the heals of another presumed feud, leaving his men rudderless, and confused, since none of the younglings are sworn to the tower, only training there, to rescue the love he proclaims from something that she doesn't not want to be rescued from.

 

Matt? He walked as a farmboy into a city filled with enemies, sure to save his life, but also the horn, he fought in falme, and he blew the horn (I hate that term) He rode forward beside perrin, and The dragon, and the dragons banner. He then escaped the aes sedai, rescued a lovely maiden (eludra) nearly died out of a following chivalrous act, combated dark friends, stood up to the entirety of the queens guard simply to keep his word, stopped a plot against that same person who he gave his word to, chased down their attackers, killed some of them, faced the defenders of the stone not knowing who was around the next corner, rescued his friends and their friends, fought off atttack after attack. Protected his poker buddies when he could have just fled, protected his friends when he could have just fled. Travels to a new environment, takes a risk, which imagine doing that yourself surrounded by people who would kill you just because you are a wetlander, to enter an unfamiliar place with no known reason, then get hanged, get brought back to life while standing next to the man that is destined to bring about a new breaking and calling him friend, all while having your head effed with, again combating darkfriends, having to kill a lover who was focused on killing him, organizing a war, when war was something that happened elsewhere all the time you lived until now, and then being drawn back into the roll of a tactical commander, leading people you never met, against an enemy more experienced and trained than you, just so you can survive long enough to link up with your base troops to supply support, and then finally getting drawn into a solo combat against the man who started the whole thing, and winning.

 

and I stopped at TFoH.

 

Yeah, My bet is on Matt. Gawyns a little whiny (expletive) which explains why arrogant selfish stupid eqwene likes him.

 

Yeah, I have to agree.

Mat does what's right no matter what just like Galad.

Unlike Galad though and it makes a HUGE difference is that he's not restricted to following the rules to do it.

The day Mat lets rules get in the way of doing what's right is the day he dies.

 

Not mention him giving up the hat is ridiculous...it's a good hat after all

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

A manchild not growing up/changing or an entire culture, nation and people changing their set values, traditions and virtues. Yeah. I definitely see which is more likely....

 

That was kind of my point about us being biased. Though, he is in a position to change the Seanchan (being married to the Empress and all). We shall see.

 

 

Just how Obama promised change? Mat isn't even the de-facto leader of the Seanchan. He is merely the consort of the ruling Empress. I present you a similar situation, would Gawyn have a big influence in being able to change the ways of the Aes Sedai because he is married to Egwene who is Amyrlin?

 

When did we start talking about real world politics? And yes we'll see, I really hope Mat doesn't go all Seanchan on us. He is Ta'veren after all :P

 

What does being Ta'veren have to do with it? Artur Hawkwing was the strongest Ta'veren to have ever lived and he was the godfather of the Seanchan, the one on whose legacy their entire system seems built. Hence the entire reconquista deal.

[randsc]

The only relevance of Mat's ta'veren nature is if the Pattern finds reform of Seanchan necessary. Which seems unlikely, as it hasn't already.

 

Ta'veren can't bend people to their will. They can bend people to the will of the Pattern.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

He is not a Manchild, he is a man, who resents having spent the last 2 years trapped into a strand that he doesn't understand. A Manchild wouldn't make the decision that matt made near the end of ToM. Just because a guy likes a drink and a gamble, doesn't mean he's a child, it means he likes a drink and a gamble. Matt has been formulating battle plans, successfully, facing the greatest dangers the world believed possible and more. Matt has made a point of promoting advancement in the technology of battle, and the appropriate tactics to apply them. Matt has raised (in an odd way) a young boy for almost 2 years into a noble young man, Matt has transitioned from a farmboy and horse trader into the greatest general since (and likely better than) Hawkwing. Matt is integral to the success of the last battle, and ability to bring enough order to the world to allow for victory. Matt is always willing to answer a call, though he complains, and is successful. Matt Is loyal, obedient, honorable and successful, and not once did he chose any of it, yet he does it anyways.

 

But he likes a drink and a gamble here and there.

 

Ever heard the military joke, "the first amendment of an infantryman is that they are allowed to complain, as long as noone can hear them."

 

Mat Has given a whole crapton to the world in just 2 years, to minimize him as a manboy is silly.

 

 

Which is mostly because of his memories of mature and wise leaders. Mat as the persona is simply a mischievous boy in a man's body who has through the Finn's been gifted/cursed with the memories/lives of countless generals, kings and warriors.

 

Why would Mat be better than Hawkwing? Please explain. He only has the memory of men who lost to Hawkwing and he himself is a weaker Ta'veren than Hawkwing.

[Finnssss22]

What does being Ta'veren have to do with it? Artur Hawkwing was the strongest Ta'veren to have ever lived and he was the godfather of the Seanchan, the one on whose legacy their entire system seems built. Hence the entire reconquista deal.

 

The Seanchan system of today is not what Hawkwing's was.

RJ said a few times in Q&A's that the current system is a combination of the views Hawkwing's armies came over the Ocean with combined with the ones of the lands they conquered.

Slavery and the "Omens" for example were never part of Hawkwing's views or beliefs.

 

The best and simplest line I saw from RJ about the them was "The Seanchan system is a reasonable response to the conditions they found."

 

To think that the Seanchan are not adaptable is a bad assumption imo.

Remember, Tuon has already started down this path when she allowed Beslan to swear to her with his own oath and not the Seanchan one and then states that it would be wrong for these people to accept the Seanchan ways without accepting some of their ways as well...just not too many of them she adds to herself.

 

We see more of this as more and more of Matrim's "fancies" and "superstitions" are shown to indeed be true. Even Selucia remarks to Tuon about how much of what Mat said was actually the fiction they first believed.

 

They're coming around alright, I think it's more of a matter of how far they will bend at this point rather than whether they will or not.

[Nygma7]

To think that the Seanchan are not adaptable is a bad assumption imo.

Remember, Tuon has already started down this path when she allowed Beslan to swear to her with his own oath and not the Seanchan one and then states that it would be wrong for these people to accept the Seanchan ways without accepting some of their ways as well...just not too many of them she adds to herself.

Yeah, we also see Tuon thinking that she has to retrieve Mat and make him presentable, though she finds this thought regrettable.

 

First, Mat is too stubborn to bend over as quickly as Beslan did. As free-spirited and egalitarian as he is, he's not going to like the idea of putting on the airs of a Seanchan lord, which even royalty on this side of ocean find mind-boggling. Would it ever come to Tuon *forcing* him to do it? Rather hard to believe. More likely she'll let him get away with it with the thought that he'll come around eventually, and in the meantime having a distinctly non-Seanchan husband will aid in the assimilation of their conquered nations.

 

Second, Tuon herself is about as open-minded as Seanchan come. And it is mentioned throughout the books how quickly Seanchan as a culture adapt to new challenges. I would be surprised if Mat doesn't influence Tuon's thinking on a lot of things, though since she's pretty strong-willed herself, she will have to be convinced he's right. Since on some things he *is* right, she'll come around eventually.

[Mandro]

He is not a Manchild, he is a man, who resents having spent the last 2 years trapped into a strand that he doesn't understand. A Manchild wouldn't make the decision that matt made near the end of ToM. Just because a guy likes a drink and a gamble, doesn't mean he's a child, it means he likes a drink and a gamble. Matt has been formulating battle plans, successfully, facing the greatest dangers the world believed possible and more. Matt has made a point of promoting advancement in the technology of battle, and the appropriate tactics to apply them. Matt has raised (in an odd way) a young boy for almost 2 years into a noble young man, Matt has transitioned from a farmboy and horse trader into the greatest general since (and likely better than) Hawkwing. Matt is integral to the success of the last battle, and ability to bring enough order to the world to allow for victory. Matt is always willing to answer a call, though he complains, and is successful. Matt Is loyal, obedient, honorable and successful, and not once did he chose any of it, yet he does it anyways.

 

But he likes a drink and a gamble here and there.

 

Ever heard the military joke, "the first amendment of an infantryman is that they are allowed to complain, as long as noone can hear them."

 

Mat Has given a whole crapton to the world in just 2 years, to minimize him as a manboy is silly.

 

 

Which is mostly because of his memories of mature and wise leaders. Mat as the persona is simply a mischievous boy in a man's body who has through the Finn's been gifted/cursed with the memories/lives of countless generals, kings and warriors.

 

Why would Mat be better than Hawkwing? Please explain. He only has the memory of men who lost to Hawkwing and he himself is a weaker Ta'veren than Hawkwing.

 

I just hate Hawkwing. Also, Mat will live and win against the darkone. All the memories and stories about hawkwing make him a righteous ba@#%#%, Matt's a real person.

[Mandro]

How about this part from "Knife of dreams" when tuon and Mistress Anan talking when matt meets up with Talmanes and the rest of the band. "I told you It's a different world from what you are used to, but you still don't quite believe it do you?" anan says, tuon responds, "Just because a thing is a certain way doesn't mean it should be that way." tuon said, "some could say the same of your people." anan says.

 

Is that a hint?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

He is not a Manchild, he is a man, who resents having spent the last 2 years trapped into a strand that he doesn't understand. A Manchild wouldn't make the decision that matt made near the end of ToM. Just because a guy likes a drink and a gamble, doesn't mean he's a child, it means he likes a drink and a gamble. Matt has been formulating battle plans, successfully, facing the greatest dangers the world believed possible and more. Matt has made a point of promoting advancement in the technology of battle, and the appropriate tactics to apply them. Matt has raised (in an odd way) a young boy for almost 2 years into a noble young man, Matt has transitioned from a farmboy and horse trader into the greatest general since (and likely better than) Hawkwing. Matt is integral to the success of the last battle, and ability to bring enough order to the world to allow for victory. Matt is always willing to answer a call, though he complains, and is successful. Matt Is loyal, obedient, honorable and successful, and not once did he chose any of it, yet he does it anyways.

 

But he likes a drink and a gamble here and there.

 

Ever heard the military joke, "the first amendment of an infantryman is that they are allowed to complain, as long as noone can hear them."

 

Mat Has given a whole crapton to the world in just 2 years, to minimize him as a manboy is silly.

 

 

Which is mostly because of his memories of mature and wise leaders. Mat as the persona is simply a mischievous boy in a man's body who has through the Finn's been gifted/cursed with the memories/lives of countless generals, kings and warriors.

 

Why would Mat be better than Hawkwing? Please explain. He only has the memory of men who lost to Hawkwing and he himself is a weaker Ta'veren than Hawkwing.

 

I just hate Hawkwing. Also, Mat will live and win against the darkone. All the memories and stories about hawkwing make him a righteous ba@#%#%, Matt's a real person.

 

Most people who dislike Hawkwing justify it because of his being the prototype Seanchan and ideological/philosophical figurehead of Seanchan belief and way of life. The Seanchan are Hawkwings lasting legacy to Randland.

[Erunion]

Don't hate on Hawkwing - Hate on Ishamael!

Hawkwing was a really good guy, who gave "justice and peace for all". The only negatives about him were that he was hard on his enemies and was made by Ishamael (and a really dumb Amyrlin) to hate all Aes Sedai.

 

What the Seanchan are is a twisting of his legacy, a unified empire but ruled out of fear (both of the Crystal Throne and of what the world would be like without the Crystal Throne) as opposed to an empire ruled out of love, as Hawkwing's was. The Seanchan took the concept of Hawkwing's empire, twisted it with Machiavellian principles ("It is far safer to be feared than to be loved" - Niccolo Machiavelli) and adapted to local circumstances.

 

 

But just an FYI, Matt is not a boy-in-a-man's-skin, nor is he immature. Yes, he was forced to grow up when the Finn's stuffed all the memories down his head, and he tried to fight it. But in the end, he accepted his fate, grew up and became a responsible leader. Yes, he still is mischievous and enjoys complaining about some circumstances. No matter how "grown up" he is, those will still be traits of his, because that is who he is as a person. Keep in mind, his memories do not force him to act, they merely give a good reminder why he should act in certain ways, and he has chosen to accept them. Does this make that decision to accept responsibility any less true?

Does Rand's knowledge of his past and (at least one) past lives make his experience on Dragonmount during VOG any less of a "real" change?

 

Yes, his memories were the catalyst for his growing sense of responsibility, yet they are not the only reason and this in no way lessons the impact of the change on him. Matt started growing up way back in TDR when he willingly stormed a castle held by a forsaken by himself (he thought that the theif-catcher had run off). He did this because he felt responsible for the safety of the girls.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Don't hate on Hawkwing - Hate on Ishamael!

Hawkwing was a really good guy, who gave "justice and peace for all". The only negatives about him were that he was hard on his enemies and was made by Ishamael (and a really dumb Amyrlin) to hate all Aes Sedai.

 

What the Seanchan are is a twisting of his legacy, a unified empire but ruled out of fear (both of the Crystal Throne and of what the world would be like without the Crystal Throne) as opposed to an empire ruled out of love, as Hawkwing's was. The Seanchan took the concept of Hawkwing's empire, twisted it with Machiavellian principles ("It is far safer to be feared than to be loved" - Niccolo Machiavelli) and adapted to local circumstances.

 

 

But just an FYI, Matt is not a boy-in-a-man's-skin, nor is he immature. Yes, he was forced to grow up when the Finn's stuffed all the memories down his head, and he tried to fight it. But in the end, he accepted his fate, grew up and became a responsible leader. Yes, he still is mischievous and enjoys complaining about some circumstances. No matter how "grown up" he is, those will still be traits of his, because that is who he is as a person. Keep in mind, his memories do not force him to act, they merely give a good reminder why he should act in certain ways, and he has chosen to accept them. Does this make that decision to accept responsibility any less true?

Does Rand's knowledge of his past and (at least one) past lives make his experience on Dragonmount during VOG any less of a "real" change?

 

Yes, his memories were the catalyst for his growing sense of responsibility, yet they are not the only reason and this in no way lessons the impact of the change on him. Matt started growing up way back in TDR when he willingly stormed a castle held by a forsaken by himself (he thought that the theif-catcher had run off). He did this because he felt responsible for the safety of the girls.

 

 

You're giving Ishamael too much credit. IIRC in the books it is recalled that Ishamael barely had to whisper in Hawkwings ear. The eternal hatred and contempt for channelers was entirely Hawkwings. This innate focused hatred, paranoia and inherent distrust of channelers was brought with Hawkwings son and heir over the Aryth ocean and we can see how that turned out (collars/damanes/etc..).

 

And boy did Hawkwing hate channelers. Giving an ungodly sum of gold for anyone who murdered an Aes Sedai, decapitated her and brought the head to the authorities. Besiege Tar Valon itself. Then as he lay dying rather embrace death than have a filthy channeler touch or save him.

[moratcorlm]

Ishamael was in Hawkwing's court for 21 years, per the Guide. Though I like the idea of "an empire ruled out of love"; what a delightful oxymoron.

[Mandro]

Don't hate on Hawkwing - Hate on Ishamael!

Hawkwing was a really good guy, who gave "justice and peace for all". The only negatives about him were that he was hard on his enemies and was made by Ishamael (and a really dumb Amyrlin) to hate all Aes Sedai.

 

What the Seanchan are is a twisting of his legacy, a unified empire but ruled out of fear (both of the Crystal Throne and of what the world would be like without the Crystal Throne) as opposed to an empire ruled out of love, as Hawkwing's was. The Seanchan took the concept of Hawkwing's empire, twisted it with Machiavellian principles ("It is far safer to be feared than to be loved" - Niccolo Machiavelli) and adapted to local circumstances.

 

 

But just an FYI, Matt is not a boy-in-a-man's-skin, nor is he immature. Yes, he was forced to grow up when the Finn's stuffed all the memories down his head, and he tried to fight it. But in the end, he accepted his fate, grew up and became a responsible leader. Yes, he still is mischievous and enjoys complaining about some circumstances. No matter how "grown up" he is, those will still be traits of his, because that is who he is as a person. Keep in mind, his memories do not force him to act, they merely give a good reminder why he should act in certain ways, and he has chosen to accept them. Does this make that decision to accept responsibility any less true?

Does Rand's knowledge of his past and (at least one) past lives make his experience on Dragonmount during VOG any less of a "real" change?

 

Yes, his memories were the catalyst for his growing sense of responsibility, yet they are not the only reason and this in no way lessons the impact of the change on him. Matt started growing up way back in TDR when he willingly stormed a castle held by a forsaken by himself (he thought that the theif-catcher had run off). He did this because he felt responsible for the safety of the girls.

 

I disagree, the ring memories demonstrate the same situation that the seanchan practice. Slavery was common in ToL. It's why I'm not a fan of ToL. Hawkwing was a representative of a flawed nation/government, and he wanted to reinstituted it. I don't like ToL based on the memories recalled.

[Suttree]

You're giving Ishamael too much credit. IIRC in the books it is recalled that Ishamael barely had to whisper in Hawkwings ear. The eternal hatred and contempt for channelers was entirely Hawkwings. This innate focused hatred, paranoia and inherent distrust of channelers was brought with Hawkwings son and heir over the Aryth ocean and we can see how that turned out (collars/damanes/etc..).

 

And boy did Hawkwing hate channelers. Giving an ungodly sum of gold for anyone who murdered an Aes Sedai, decapitated her and brought the head to the authorities. Besiege Tar Valon itself. Then as he lay dying rather embrace death than have a filthy channeler touch or save him.

 

No Ishamael himself takes the credit.

 

( The Eye of the World, Chapter 14)

 

"I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed."

 

So comedy how you consistently twist things with just enough truth to sound plausible. Hawkwing worked with and had an Aes Sedai advisor up until the age of 62 . Yes he had some rough patches with Aes Sedai over the years but still had them as a part of his court until Jalwin Moerad showed up and worked across 20+ years to poison Hawkwings mind. It was only then that Hawkwing's most drastic moves were taken.

[sleepinghour]

Hawkwing worked with and had an Aes Sedai advisor up until the age of 62 . Yes he had some rough patches with Aes Sedai over the years but still had them as a part of his court until Jalwin Moerad showed up and worked across 20+ years to poison Hawkwings mind. It was only then that Hawkwing's most drastic moves were taken.

I've always thought the easiest way to solve the damane issue would be for Mat to blow the Horn and get Hawkwing to say he no longer thinks Aes Sedai should be collared. Given how revered Hawkwing is by Tuon and the Seanchan, they'd accept anything he said.

[redmid17]

Am I missing something here? Why on earth would Matt be So'jhin to Tuon? I realize that Egeanin had Domon as So'jhin, but she also captured him and married him while a member of the Low Blood. Matt kidnapped Tuon and she married him while she was still his prisoner, so the same situation clearly doesn't apply here. We also have no mention of the former Empress' husband being a So'jhin. I can't imagine the Prince of Ravens being property in any case though, since the rest of the Imperial family isn't property nor are the Blood.