Aviendha vs Tuon?

[Aliriel]

Ok people,

This idea has been running through my head for a few days now.

 

Bringing everything back to basics with what we know about these "Ladies" physical abilities (ie: NO Channeling), who do you think would win in and all out "Catfight"? Aviendha, our hot-headed, often PMS'y Aiel Mistress of Pain, or our Dark, Porciline (spelling?) Doll-like "I'm Gunna Rule You All" Empress of Mayhem, Tuon?

 

Personally, I pick Tuon, as i actually know two girls who fit their physical descriptions pretty well (albeit without all the combat training), and the one who resembles Tuon is faster, has better balance and is deceptivly stronger than the other.

 

Any and all reasons for your choice are fine, the simplest "Because I like her more" is more than enough. No examples from the books are needed but will be greatly appreciated if given.

 

As I said, it's just an idea i've had floating around in my head for a few days and I wanted to know other peoples oppinions.

 

A.

[fikkie77]

Avienha. She knows who she is and what she can do.

Tuon denies or ignores what she is (a channeler). She can never reach her full potential if she hasn't come to terms with that.

[Aliriel]

Hi there.

 

Yes, I fully agree with your view that Tuon can never be "at her best" without accepting her ability to Channel, but that isn't what was asked in this thread.

What was asked was in a purily physical contest, with NO channeling, who would win?

It had been shown in at least two encounters that Tuon know's how to handle herself in a fistfight, I don't have my books infront of me so I can't give chaper or page references, but the first is her "Kidnapping" from the palace in Ebou Dar, the second is when Mat, Thom, Selucia and herself are attacked outside of the tavern... She almost wipes the floor with Mat, even with him being injured he could only just keep her blows off him. She also gives a good account of herself in the alleyway. She, out of the four came out with no injuries.

So IMO Tuon, even with rejecting a large part of who she could be, know's how to throw a punch.

 

Thanks for replying

 

A.

[Sid]

I personally think Avi would win mainly because of her size (reach) advantage. Mat has faced both Tuon and Melindhra (whom I would put Avi at least on a par with), and though Tuon wasn't trying to kill him like Melindhra was in TFOH, he basically got his butt kicked while he was uninjured then and did not with a noticeable limp vs. Tuon's attacks in WH.

[capuga]

I'd have to pick Avi here. Tuon shows that she has skills and speed when she goes after Mat, but Avi has been engaging in actual, real combat for years and has a pretty big size advantage. And that is not soft size - the Aiel are a fit, strong people.

[Aliriel]

Hi Sid and Mark!

Awesome! Thanks for your replies .

One thing I must say though Sid is that in TFoH when Mat was taking on Melhindra (spelling), he was on the defensive because of his "I don't want to kill chicks" sentiments, just like Rand has.

It isn't until he he figures out she's a DF, from her "Great Lord" reference that he uses a fatal blow, and even then he still feels great remorse from it.

 

Now I don't mean to sound like a knitpicker, I just like having as many facts on the table as possible.

 

A.

[Harvster7]

Intersesting thread, IMO I would say Aviendha, the reason being even though Tuon has self defence skills, she would only have to use it as a last resort due to the protection of the deathwatch guards, and if an assasin got through those they would have to deal with Selucia first before they attacked her. With Aviendha being a former maiden of the spear, she would have been training everyday and participating in endless raids on other clan septs this would have given her invaluable battle/fight experience.

[Aliriel]

Hey Rigante,

 

Thank-you for posting, and I fully agree that Avi would have more everyday experience.

 

Well it seems majority of the people like Avi, come on Tuon-ites, show yourselves!

 

A.

[Sid]

True, he was on the defensive in TFOH vs. Melindhra, but he was also certainly on the defensive in WH vs. Tuon. In both cases he was just trying to avoid personal injury as much as he could. I know it's not really a completely valid argument for the Avi/Tuon debate, since Avi never fought Melindhra to see how they compare, but that's my opinion. Regardless, I'd pick Avi And I'd certainly pay to see such a thing if Avi and Tuon fought hand to hand.

[yoniy0]

OK, I'll chip in. If Aviendha were shielded, then her current attire would probably restrict her movements, while Tuon is expected to be her own last line of defense every minute of her life. Having said that, if Aviendha were allowed to change into a cadin'sor and if she had her spears, well that would be a different story altogether, wouldn't it? Remember that the spears aren't just about not touching swords. We see during Rand's trip to Rhuidean that making the Aiel spears shorter than what's common in the wetlands is an actual improvement, which allows them to be faster and more deadly. What's more, I agree that Tuon, adept as she is, is no maiden of the spear (therefore I'd still say Aviendha even if they were allowed no weapons).

[Myrenna]

I like Tuon, and I think she could probably hold Aviendha off for a while, she is a tough little lady, after all, but Aviendha is from a warrior culture. She probably did a lot of playfighting back when she wore two pigtails -- she states in the books that she always wanted to be a Maiden. In the Aiel culture most civilians are very competent with a spear, and we know how deadly their trained warriors are. She's taken part in loads of conflicts in her short life, and Tuon has only really had training -- as intense as that training may be, it never truly prepares for the real thing.

[Aliriel]

Sid, once again, great points and I must agree, But I don't really want to set Mat up as a "benchmark" of their fighting abilities because lets face, in a fist fight Mat is only average IMHO (then again, average for this lot is still better than most people irl). And I would pay to see it as well .

And welcome to my madness yoniyO. To be honest, i hadn't even thought about attire or weapons. If you consider those details then yes, Avi is at a disadvanage. But you also must remember, touching another warrior with your barehand and not injuring them bring the most Ji to warrior in battle, so not all Aiel fighting is with the spears.

 

A.

[Aliriel]

Hey Myrenna!

 

Yay! Finally a little support for Newly Crowned (Vieled?) Empress from far away.

But yes, once again, I have to admit the little boyish one has not had as much experience in an actual fight... But common, she has spunk .

 

A.

[OptimusPrime]

I think Aviendha would win because she spent the majority of her life as a Maiden. In a catfight, she'd be the lion.

 

I want some Aviendha vs Tuon action now! I'd like it if Tuon leashed her but Aviendha still kicks her ass and breaks free.

[Myrenna]

I wonder if a leashed Aiel could break free with her super-Aiel-stamina-skills, actually. You've put that idea in my head now, Drekka, it's not going to leave me alone!! :(

[David Selig]

If the fight is with weapons of their choosing, Aviendha wins easily. She's deadly with the spears, she had trained them almost her whole life and been in plenty of battles. Tuon has been trained to use weapons well, but she didn't have the time to really become a master since she had to learn so many other things to prepare for becoming an Empress - it was noted that she had trained her mind way more than anything else. The major goal of her fighting training was to resist assassination attempts and surprise people in critical moments, not to become a great frontline fighter in a typical battle, for which he doesn't have neither the physique nor the time needed to perfect.

 

Unarmed fighting would be closer, we've seen that Tuon was able to held her own against Mat and even impressed him with her extremely quick hands and deceptive strength for such a small frame. And she killed with ease one of the thugs in Maderin with her bare hands. On the other hands, the Aiel unarmed way of fighting is also well developed and no doubt Aviendha is well trained in it too (she noted in TGS that she could, so I'll still give her the edge, but Tuon would have her chances.

[OptimusPrime]

I wonder if a leashed Aiel could break free with her super-Aiel-stamina-skills, actually. You've put that idea in my head now, Drekka, it's not going to leave me alone!! :(

 

Hahaha it was one of the first things I thought of when I saw the thread title. I refuse to believe Egwene could take more pain than Aviendha, what with the respect the Wise Ones give her with harsh punishments, but Egwenes got some considerable tolerance to pain judging from TGS. I seriously think Aviendhas tougher, and the only thing I can think of that could top it really would be something like beating someone who has the leash on you.

[Myrenna]

I wonder if a leashed Aiel could break free with her super-Aiel-stamina-skills, actually. You've put that idea in my head now, Drekka, it's not going to leave me alone!! :(

 

Hahaha it was one of the first things I thought of when I saw the thread title. I refuse to believe Egwene could take more pain than Aviendha, what with the respect the Wise Ones give her with harsh punishments, but Egwenes got some considerable tolerance to pain judging from TGS. I seriously think Aviendhas tougher, and the only thing I can think of that could top it really would be something like beating someone who has the leash on you.

 

Also, consider that Egwene was leashed before her training with the Wise Ones, when her pain tolerance grew massively. I reckon the Aiel would put up a good fight.

[yoniy0]

But you also must remember, touching another warrior with your barehand and not injuring them bring the most Ji to warrior in battle, so not all Aiel fighting is with the spears.

Oh, certainly. I seem to recall that Rand was able to kill and disarm an armed Warder with his bare hands (or did he simply disabled the first Warder, and only killed the second with the sword he obtained from the first?), something he picked up on in the Waste (Rhuarc and/or Mangin trained him, I believe).

[moratcorlm]

Not just trying to break through the shield, but killing a Warder with his bare hands and severely wounding another with the dead man’s sword, to such an extent that the second died in the Healing. All that in the moments required for the sisters to overcome their shock and bind him with the Power.

[Ozzie_aiel]

But you also must remember, touching another warrior with your barehand and not injuring them bring the most Ji to warrior in battle, so not all Aiel fighting is with the spears.

Oh, certainly. I seem to recall that Rand was able to kill and disarm an armed Warder with his bare hands (or did he simply disabled the first Warder, and only killed the second with the sword he obtained from the first?), something he picked up on in the Waste (Rhuarc and/or Mangin trained him, I believe).

 

He killed the first warder with his bare hands, then injured the second so badly with the sword he died during Healing.

 

Against Aviendha and Tuon, I'd place my money on the Aiel girl, taller, stronger, more stamina, more experience, probably just as fast as Tuon, if not faster. remember, all Aiel train in fighting, and Aviendha was strong enough to rise and become a Maiden.

 

Aviendha and Selucia though, that would be an awesome fight!

[Aliriel]

WOW!! So many great replies! Too many to address one-by-one but thank-you all!

 

As you can most likely tell, I'm still on Tuon's side, but every point made in Avi's favour brings my optimisim down another rung on the ladder.

All I can say is keep the posts coming and GO TUON!!

 

A.

[Ozzie_aiel]

WOW!! So many great replies! Too many to address one-by-one but thank-you all!

 

As you can most likely tell, I'm still on Tuon's side, but every point made in Avi's favour brings my optimisim down another rung on the ladder.

All I can say is keep the posts coming and GO TUON!!

 

A.

 

Don't worry, Tuon could win.

 

There is such a thing as luck

[dscott8]

Avi wins.

 

Tuon may have had good training, but Avi comes from a culture of personal combat, and Maidens (like other Warrior Societies) devote their ENTIRE BLOODY LIVES to becoming lethal weapons. Note that the fierce Borderland fighters and the Warders both respect the Aiel as warriors.

 

The point has also been made about Avi's greater size and reach. A trained small person may be able to defeat an untrained larger person, but when two opponents are both well trained, physical attributes become a factor. Avi is bigger, with a longer reach, and she's very fit -- she can outrun a horse, for the Light's sake!

 

The third factor in my opinion is that Tuon, being Empress and all, think's she's Queen Bee, which leads to dangerous overconfidence. She may be trained, but Avi's got a lot more actual fighting experience, and is less likely to underestimate an opponent.

 

In a hand-to-hand knockdown fight, Avi would OWN Tuon's perky little butt.

[Tiinker]

Well.. I doubt Aviendha would've been kidnapped as easily as Tuon was.