Mesaana in aMoL?

[Luckers]

[Just kicking around some random thoughts, so don't be looking for my crazy detail]

 

Ok, so Mesaana was in the Dark One's bad books to begin with for failing to rock up at the Cleansing. Aran'gar even states that once upon a time dereliction of duty on that scale would have seen Mesaana dead, so that gives us a clear indication of how badly she put her foot wrong. Then in tGS, Egwene slaps the bejesus out of the Black Ajah right under Mesaana's nose--after Mesaana makes all her grandiose claims in the tGS prologue no less--and given that Graendal was blamed for Aran'gar and Mesaana under a similar logic--that it occured on her watch--I can see that also falling on Mesaana.

 

Two great failures at least puts her on par with Lanfear and Moghedien in terms of the Dark One's naughty list--so here's the wild conjecture part--what if Mesaana was bound by cour'souvra before Egwene broke her? Just to remind you what a cour'souvra can do if broken...

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'-souvra.

 

[aCoS; 25, Mindtrap]

 

Time bomb in the Tower?

[Muad Cheade]

So you think Moridin will be able to control Mesanna despite her currently being in a vegetable-like state?

 

I want to disagree but after seeing Fain's zombie-Trollocs and the Aiel-things in the Blight, who knows?

 

How would she be able to channel though? I doubt strapping on an a'dam would do anything either.

[moratcorlm]

It would explain why Moridin just kept feeding Mesaana enough rope to hang herself with over the last two books. Of course, that would only be productive if she were turned into a vegetable, which practically required her to confront Egwene in TAR, outside her element; if she had attempted a confrontation in the real world and failed she'd either be dead, or tried and stilled – I imagine that's still the legal course prescribed, though execution is a lot safer than stilling these days. But Moridin's strategy with Mesaana was foolish; he completely wasted her talents just to punish her for her previous failure. Had he loaned Isam or any number of other kinds of assistance to Mesaana rather than Graendal, for instance, Egwene probably would have lost.

[Luckers]

So you think Moridin will be able to control Mesanna despite her currently being in a vegetable-like state?

 

I want to disagree but after seeing Fain's zombie-Trollocs and the Aiel-things in the Blight, who knows?

 

How would she be able to channel though? I doubt strapping on an a'dam would do anything either.

 

I don't see what Mesaana's mind has to do with it. Moghedien makes it clear--the body becomes a puppet to the holder of the cour'souvra--indeed breaking the cour'souvra causes much the same effect as what Egwene did.

 

Also why would she have any problems channeling? Her ability is intact, and is as such there for Moridin to use.

 

It would explain why Moridin just kept feeding herself enough rope to hang herself with over the last two books. Of course, that would only be productive if she were turned into a vegetable, which practically required her to confront Egwene in TAR, outside her element; if she had attempted a confrontation in the real world and failed she'd either be dead, or tried and stilled – I imagine that's still the legal course prescribed, though execution is a lot safer than stilling these days. But Moridin's strategy with Mesaana was foolish; he completely wasted her talents just to punish her for her previous failure. Had he loaned Isam or any number of other kinds of assistance to Mesaana rather than Graendal, for instance, Egwene probably would have lost.

 

I'm not suggesting that Moridin knew Mesaana would lose to Egwene and mindtrapped her in order to use her after that, I'm suggesting that much like Moghedien and Cyndane, she was mindtrapped as a form of punishment and control. It's just happy coincidence that Egwene's victory still left Mesaana usable to the Shadow should she have been mindtrapped.

[moratcorlm]

Yes, I was shifting between intent of the character and intent of the author... sloppy thinking. Still, some of the point remains: if she has been mindtrapped, why would Moridin fail to extend her necessary support? I think the clearest interpretation is that Mesaana concocted her scheme for a TAR ambush as a final, last-ditch attempt at redeeming herself; if she has been punished for her failures in TGS (since it seems unlikely she was mindtrapped in COT or KOD) by being fitted with a cour'souvra, she has no prospect of regaining status or redemption of any kind. Wasting Mesaana was foolish: wasting her after going to the trouble of mindtrapping her would be excessively foolish.

[Luckers]

Shadar Haren implies that the higher ups in the shadow thought Mesaana's plan would have worked had the dreamspike not become involved. Moridin might have been perfectly confident in her success.

[Sharaman]

No sign anywhere in the books that she has been mind-trapped. So this is pure conjecture.

[Luckers]

No sign anywhere in the books that she has been mind-trapped. So this is pure conjecture.

 

Which is pretty much why I stated that flatly in my opening post.

 

Two great failures at least puts her on par with Lanfear and Moghedien in terms of the Dark One's naughty list--so here's the wild conjecture part--what if Mesaana was bound by cour'souvra before Egwene broke her? Just to remind you what a cour'souvra can do if broken...

 

I also stated that I was "just kicking around some random thoughts"

 

... so yes... what does this comment achieve?

[mikael]

Would be sweet, have the Shadow finally hurting someone.................... Of course the odds are pretty high on this one ;) but nice catch, been waiting for some theories from you :)

[Sentinel78]

I don't have my copy of ToM handy but SH states Graendal is responsible for the deaths of three Chosen (Asmo / Ar'angar / Mesaana). Would SH mince words by calling Mesaana as good as dead when she could still serve a useful purpose? Maybe, but I kinda doubt it.

 

Also, it is unclear whether the Mindtrap permits direct control at that level, i.e., allowing the brain's own signals to be preempted externally. The only thing so far that seems to be grant a controller direct control over the actions of another is the Domination Band, when Rand's body moves against his will.

 

So, the capacity of the Mindtrap to control a human vegetable is speculative, and Mesaana having been previously mindtrapped is also very speculative. This theory is not impossible but based on what we know so far I view this as fairly unlikely.

[Luckers]

Also, it is unclear whether the Mindtrap permits direct control at that level, i.e., allowing the brain's own signals to be preempted externally.

 

Actually I would say the quote I provided suggests precisely that. Note the bolded part.

 

Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'-souvra.

[aCoS; 25, Mindtrap]

 

An automaton is, by definition, precisely what we are speaking of. And the issue of external control is not only provided, it is unlimited by distance.

[sleepinghour]

Time bomb in the Tower?

Even if she's a vegetable, they probably still have her shielded. But it's possible that the Seanchan would be able to use her strength if they slap an a'dam on her and hand her to an experienced sul'dam (like Tuon) who can form the weaves herself. How much damage would the Seanchan be able to do to the Tower with a Forsaken as damane?

[Luckers]

Time bomb in the Tower?

Even if she's a vegetable, they probably still have her shielded. But it's possible that the Seanchan would be able to use her strength if they slap an a'dam on her and hand her to an experienced sul'dam (like Tuon) who can form the weaves herself. How much damage would the Seanchan be able to do to the Tower with a Forsaken as damane?

 

 

Actually if they did bother to care about this given Bair's assertation that the condition is permanent, its more probable they'd use Forkroot.

 

Which raises the question--is the True Power affected by Forkroot?

[johthohar]

Actually if they did bother to care about this given Bair's assertation that the condition is permanent, its more probable they'd use Forkroot.

 

Which raises the question--is the True Power affected by Forkroot?

 

I would guess, based on the fact that forkroot in small amounts takes away most of a person's channeling ability and doesn't have a noticeable effect on motor functions or rend the person unconscious, that the herb directly affects the part of the brain used to channel. Based on that I would venture further that it would affect ability to channel the True Power as much as the One Power. But based on how stupid Aes Sedai are prone to be I don't think they would bother to shield, still, or dose her.

 

All that aside, do we know if the person has to be present at Shayol Ghul in order to be mindtrapped? I would guess that they do but we've only seen it done once and I don't think the necessary steps were ever described in detail unless Jordan or Sanderson has talked about it outside of the story.

[sleepinghour]

Actually if they did bother to care about this given Bair's assertation that the condition is permanent, its more probable they'd use Forkroot.

I had forgotten about the forkroot, but you're right--it'd be far easier than keeping a Forsaken shielded 24/7. Vegetable or not, I think they'll want to keep her from being able to channel just in case. And the Seanchan are well familiar with forkroot by now and know it wears off after a few hours. It'd be a nice twist if Egwene's the one who indirectly gives the Seanchan a powerful weapon to use against the Tower.

 

Which raises the question--is the True Power affected by Forkroot?

In an unprecedented move, the Dragon Reborn defeats Nae'blis by inviting him to debate philosophy over a nice cup of tea...

[Ananta]

They should just Balefire Mesaana and be done with it. She has done enough evil to deserve it, and there's no point in keeping her around either.

[capeta]

Ok now I am trying to remember just where the scene was.. tgs or ToM. The meeting with the forsaken, Greandal's point of view, where she is thinking she will take down Moridin. She notices Cyndane and Moghedien shiver when Moridin touches his chest. As I recall this is recently after Messana's punishment and Messana is still less composed. However, at this meeting she does not shiver, so I would say not mind-trapped yet. Now that I am remembering the scene I am thinking it was TGS cause Semi was there.

 

-Cap

[fikkie77]

Yes, you would have to be at Shayol Ghul. When we read about Moggy beging trapped in the cour'souvra, it is said that that's the only place where it can be done.

 

Other than that, I think this idea is too far-fetched. She could have been trapped after her absence at the Cleansing, but the way she talks in the prologue of TGS, gives me the idea she is still independent. Would the BA purge be enough reason to trap her? I don't think so, as enough BA escaped to attempt to reclaim the White Tower. I don't think that something important as the trapping of Messy would have happened off-screen. And the fact that the Shadow sees her as lost, would imply she can't be used anymore. Not by cruching the mindtrap that already has been made, not my transporting her to SG to make a mindtrap. She won't be seen active again.

[Sentinel78]

Also, it is unclear whether the Mindtrap permits direct control at that level, i.e., allowing the brain's own signals to be preempted externally.

 

Actually I would say the quote I provided suggests precisely that. Note the bolded part.

 

 

You're right, I read that way too quickly and confused that book-quote as part of your post. However...

 

“You are marked as mine,” the Great Lord rasped. “Mesaana will not harm you, now. Unless I give her permission. You will find who threatens my creatures here and deliver them to me.”

 

I think marking Alviarin in this manner is cumulative if Mesaana was going to be mindtrapped, since the mindtrap appears to compel obedience, at the very least.

[moratcorlm]

Ok now I am trying to remember just where the scene was.. tgs or ToM. The meeting with the forsaken, Greandal's point of view, where she is thinking she will take down Moridin. She notices Cyndane and Moghedien shiver when Moridin touches his chest. As I recall this is recently after Messana's punishment and Messana is still less composed. However, at this meeting she does not shiver, so I would say not mind-trapped yet. Now that I am remembering the scene I am thinking it was TGS cause Semi was there.

The scene was in KOD3, about 80 days prior to the relevant time window, and it was from Aran'gar's point of view.

[threadnecromancer]

I have been wondering as to whether sending a Grey man and having her killed may not be the best course for the Shadow. It seems to me that she could then be resurrected by the Dark One and then perhaps mind trapped as a result of her repeated failures.

[Durinax]

I have been wondering as to whether sending a Grey man and having her killed may not be the best course for the Shadow. It seems to me that she could then be resurrected by the Dark One and then perhaps mind trapped as a result of her repeated failures.

I dont think they will need too, I think that teh AS will have her executed after the yellow sisters investigate her condition. They still dont know that teh DO can rez souls so it is teh proper course of action as far as they know

[Ananta]

I have been wondering as to whether sending a Grey man and having her killed may not be the best course for the Shadow. It seems to me that she could then be resurrected by the Dark One and then perhaps mind trapped as a result of her repeated failures.

I dont think they will need too, I think that teh AS will have her executed after the yellow sisters investigate her condition. They still dont know that teh DO can rez souls so it is teh proper course of action as far as they know

 

I'd say they know... Or how else could they explain Halima...?

 

I'm sure Rand has told SOMEONE that Balefire is the only thing that can kill the Forsaken.

[Dakota]

I have been wondering as to whether sending a Grey man and having her killed may not be the best course for the Shadow. It seems to me that she could then be resurrected by the Dark One and then perhaps mind trapped as a result of her repeated failures.

I dont think they will need too, I think that teh AS will have her executed after the yellow sisters investigate her condition. They still dont know that teh DO can rez souls so it is teh proper course of action as far as they know

 

I'd say they know... Or how else could they explain Halima...?

 

I'm sure Rand has told SOMEONE that Balefire is the only thing that can kill the Forsaken.

 

After he killed Semi and showed the balefire weave to an Ashaman (I forget who) on the adam, he mentioned it was the only way to kill a Forsaken.

[Durinax]

I have been wondering as to whether sending a Grey man and having her killed may not be the best course for the Shadow. It seems to me that she could then be resurrected by the Dark One and then perhaps mind trapped as a result of her repeated failures.

I dont think they will need too, I think that teh AS will have her executed after the yellow sisters investigate her condition. They still dont know that teh DO can rez souls so it is teh proper course of action as far as they know

 

I'd say they know... Or how else could they explain Halima...?

 

I'm sure Rand has told SOMEONE that Balefire is the only thing that can kill the Forsaken.

 

After he killed Semi and showed the balefire weave to an Ashaman (I forget who) on the adam, he mentioned it was the only way to kill a Forsaken.

yes but I dont think the majority of AS know BF, and plus this is WoT with no data sharing, especially when its important. They make CSIS look openmouthed