The Prophecies of the Shadow

[herid]

I also don't agree that the First among Vermin is Rand for that very reason. He is never associated with rats. I think Ishy calls him vermin once as an insult but that's it. also, as you say inverting the meaning like this, that is calling Rand the first among Vermin as an insult in one breath and then calling him a Champion in the other makes no sense. It could be Fain or more likely Moridin IMO. we know that Ishy/Moridin just loves rats. and he is supposed to be shadow's champion and so the last man standing on their side to face Rand in the final moments.

 

This is Dark Prophecy. They consider the Good guys vermin, something beneath them, and weak.

 

as i said I don't buy this inverted meaning explanation at all. It's too contrived. The prophecies always use names very carefully. If it says vermin then there should be some connection to vermin, not a general insult. also, Rand does not raise his hand to free the DO. he wants to break the seals to rebuild the DO's prison. He has absolutely no intention of actually freeing him.

[DocBean]

Am I the only one that hates this prophesy?

It's just not as cool as any of the others. Certainly not as cool as the Slayer Dark Prophesy.

 

 

Every characterization is either too obvious, or too ridiculous.

If Rand is the Broken Wolf then it's possibly the worst, most blatant, red-herring I've ever seen.

There is no possible way for BS to make Wolf fit Rand, when we already have plenty of wolves in this story, we don't need the main character to be a wolf too.

I've never understood why fantasy writers think so highly of wolves and trees!

 

There are lots of prophesies already pointing to Rand's death, why not one more?

Just say the "Broken King" or something and we could come up with 10 characters, and not be upset to find out it's Rand.

If BS is trying to be clever by calling Rand a Wolf, then he's really bad at this prophesy business; I won't believe RJ wrote it.

Just throwing people off for the sake of throwing them off makes no sense. If RJ wrote it, I believe he would have changed it before production.

 

 

However, if it's Perrin, how freaking obvious is that? A Wolf? Come on man, there are like 3 or 4 people that fit that, and only Perrin is important enough!

Why do you have to tell us he's gonna die. Leave us in shock, when we read it! You're not telling us the One-Eyed-Fool is dying, and we all know who that is.

Let's be honest after reading this what would shock you more, Mat dying, or Perrin? Mat would. I'll be ticked off that Perrin's death was spoiled for me by the writer.

 

That's why I'm hoping Perrin becoming Man and Wolf in the Dreamworld is foreshadowing of the Slayer Killer combo move,

and the Forsaken sweeping down to kill Perrin's manhalf is the money shot.

[DocBean]

as i said I don't buy this inverted meaning explanation at all. It's too contrived. The prophecies always use names very carefully. If it says vermin then there should be some connection to vermin, not a general insult. also, Rand does not raise his hand to free the DO. he wants to break the seals to rebuild the DO's prison. He has absolutely no intention of actually freeing him.

 

Why does Vermin have to tie in with people that like Rats? They don't say Rats, they say Vermin. Calling someone vermin is an insult.

Why would a darkfriend dreamer, or foreteller write about Moridin or any other high ranking Darkfriend as vermin?

If you're that guy, what do you call Rand? "Ah, that jackass?! He's vermin!"

 

Rand lifting his hand. Do you not see the irony in that?

Breaking the seals will basically free him. At least that's what the darkfriend that wrote the prophesy will believe.

 

If you have a dream about your wife opening the cage to a rabid dog, you'd assume that that dog is getting out, and you'd blame your wife for it.

Just because your wife had no intention of letting the dog out, doesn't mean you wouldn't see it as her releasing the dog from its prison.

Maybe she was opening the door so she could finish off Old Yeller without fear of backfire.

[Terez]

I don't feel the same way about the wolf connection. Just the one Rand quote referring to himself as 'the wolf' and the connection to the Biblical wolf in sheep's clothing is plenty enough for me.

[rambling]

This is Dark Prophecy. They consider the Good guys vermin, something beneath them, and weak.

Moridin has called Rand and himself Champions. So even he is probably interpreting this Prophecy as Rand.

 

The Broken Champion, in the DF point-of-view is the loser. So that's Rand to them.

However, just because Rand is broken doesn't mean he loses.

Remember when Ivan Drago said he would Break Rocky in Rocky IV?

 

Calling Rand the Champion of the Light isn't saying that you believe he's better then you are.

He's just the best of the Vermin, and if you're Moridin, the Champion of the Dark you'll Break Him, ...until all the Soviets start cheering for Rocky that is

In the mind of a Darkfriend, Rand is just the best the Vermin have to offer. He's their Champion, the first among vermin, and he'll be broken.

 

I quite agree that someone being called the Broken Champion does not imply that he is better or worse than anyone else.

In the old fashioned sense, a Champion is simply a job description and that's how I've been taking it.

I stand by my argument though, vermin implies a lack of respect usually reserved for a traitor or a turncoat, someone on the Dark side might use the word to describe Rand, but not the prophecy.

The prophecy itself is neutral, it can be read to mean that either side will win and it has no need for pointless insults - Mat is described as a Fool because he fools around, not because he's stupid.

If the prophecy took sides we'd have words like glorious, majestic etc. thrown in there, and there would be insulting titles for one side or the other.

Instead, we have one insulting title in the prophecy to match the one character of note who works for neither side.

[DocBean]

I quite agree that someone being called the Broken Champion does not imply that he is better or worse than anyone else.

In the old fashioned sense, a Champion is simply a job description and that's how I've been taking it.

I stand by my argument though, vermin implies a lack of respect usually reserved for a traitor or a turncoat, someone on the Dark side might use the word to describe Rand, but not the prophecy.

The prophecy itself is neutral, it can be read to mean that either side will win and it has no need for pointless insults - Mat is described as a Fool because he fools around, not because he's stupid.

If the prophecy took sides we'd have words like glorious, majestic etc. thrown in there, and there would be insulting titles for one side or the other.

Instead, we have one insulting title in the prophecy to match the one character of note who works for neither side.

 

The problem is the prophecy doesn't write itself, so it's not neutral.

[rambling]

I quite agree that someone being called the Broken Champion does not imply that he is better or worse than anyone else.

In the old fashioned sense, a Champion is simply a job description and that's how I've been taking it.

I stand by my argument though, vermin implies a lack of respect usually reserved for a traitor or a turncoat, someone on the Dark side might use the word to describe Rand, but not the prophecy.

The prophecy itself is neutral, it can be read to mean that either side will win and it has no need for pointless insults - Mat is described as a Fool because he fools around, not because he's stupid.

If the prophecy took sides we'd have words like glorious, majestic etc. thrown in there, and there would be insulting titles for one side or the other.

Instead, we have one insulting title in the prophecy to match the one character of note who works for neither side.

 

The problem is the prophecy doesn't write itself, so it's not neutral.

Who writes it then? And who's side is this prophecy on? I don't see any bias.

The person giving it voice may not be neutral, the people reading are absolutely not neutral, but the wording itself is.

[Dream]

Are you serious!? It's clearly bias for the Dark.

 

You need to go back and re-read the prophecy. It's on page 2 of this thread.

[DocBean]

Who writes it then? And who's side is this prophecy on? I don't see any bias.

The person giving it voice may not be neutral, the people reading are absolutely not neutral, but the wording itself is.

 

A darkfriend writes it.

This prophecy is clearly labeled as Dark Prophecies.

 

I don't get how you cannot see a bias when it's calling the Dark One - The Greatest One.

 

How can ANYONE read this prophecy and say it's not biased?

Here it is:

 

"Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His

glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious

nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

 

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who

will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

And then shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and he shall take our skin, for

our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,

and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

 

—From The Prophecies of the Shadow

 

So it's calling Mat a fool.

The Dark One is the Greatest One.

The creator and previous Dragon have weak limbs.

The Dark One's cloak smothering the world is "glorious" - a word you said we'd see if the prophecy was biased.

Darkness is so beautiful.

Any nation against the Dark one will be laid barren, their children caused to weep.

 

Come on Man. Here is how it works. A darkfriend has a vision, then interprets it however he sees fit.

In this case, he's taking his visions, and trying to make them fit with a Dark Side Victory.

It doesn't mean his visions won't come true, just means his interpretation of them might be wrong.

[Terez]

The prophecies are Foretellings, not visions that have been interpreted. They are probably given by Darkfriends - hence the wording - but they are just as sure to be fulfilled as Light prophecies.

[Nooska]

Having just finished another thread where this is discussed;

Daeath has most certainly known Perrin - He lost his entire family.

Death has also known Mat, who has been dead (and is now - erhh - un-dead), who has lost at least 1 loved one (Tylin, can't remember more very close people for Mat off the top of my head).

Rand has not known Death personally (only as a commander), apart from having been dead for ~3000 years, been reborn and having killed his entire family before killing himself 3.000 years ago (integrated Rand and LTT are the same person, so clearly what happened to LTT can, for prophetic concerns at least, be said to have happened to Rand)

 

I'm not sure who I think the broken wolf is, but I am heavily leaning toward Perrin from pure intuitive obviousness - I do not believe he will die however, I ampretty sure that that is the part of the prophecy that will be facepalmed over at the resolution.

[mbuehner]

The prophecies are Foretellings, not visions that have been interpreted. They are probably given by Darkfriends - hence the wording - but they are just as sure to be fulfilled as Light prophecies.

 

What's the thought on the certainty of prophecy fulfillment, light or dark? Rand and Morraine seem to think that prophecies don't always come true, just that they could happen given the right circumstances. Elaida seemed pretty sure of hers though (enough to stake her life on it anyway).

[capuga]

Having just finished another thread where this is discussed;

Daeath has most certainly known Perrin - He lost his entire family.

Death has also known Mat, who has been dead (and is now - erhh - un-dead), who has lost at least 1 loved one (Tylin, can't remember more very close people for Mat off the top of my head).

 

He had to kill Melindra himself. Of course, she was a Darkfriend but he cared about her and she was close with him up until she tried to murder him.

[capuga]

The prophecies are Foretellings, not visions that have been interpreted. They are probably given by Darkfriends - hence the wording - but they are just as sure to be fulfilled as Light prophecies.

 

What's the thought on the certainty of prophecy fulfillment, light or dark? Rand and Morraine seem to think that prophecies don't always come true, just that they could happen given the right circumstances. Elaida seemed pretty sure of hers though (enough to stake her life on it anyway).

 

Seems pretty set in stone. Have we actually seen one that hasn't come true? Although I guess that doesn't really prove anything because the ones that haven't come true we just assume are stilling pending and going to happen later.

[herid]

I also don't agree that the First among Vermin is Rand for that very reason. He is never associated with rats. I think Ishy calls him vermin once as an insult but that's it. also, as you say inverting the meaning like this, that is calling Rand the first among Vermin as an insult in one breath and then calling him a Champion in the other makes no sense. It could be Fain or more likely Moridin IMO. we know that Ishy/Moridin just loves rats. and he is supposed to be shadow's champion and so the last man standing on their side to face Rand in the final moments.

 

This is Dark Prophecy. They consider the Good guys vermin, something beneath them, and weak.

Moridin has called Rand and himself Champions. So even he is probably interpreting this Prophecy as Rand.

 

The Broken Champion, in the DF point-of-view is the loser. So that's Rand to them.

However, just because Rand is broken doesn't mean he loses.

Remember when Ivan Drago said he would Break Rocky in Rocky IV?

 

Calling Rand the Champion of the Light isn't saying that you believe he's better then you are.

He's just the best of the Vermin, and if you're Moridin, the Champion of the Dark you'll Break Him, ...until all the Soviets start cheering for Rocky that is

In the mind of a Darkfriend, Rand is just the best the Vermin have to offer. He's their Champion, the first among vermin, and he'll be broken.

you are simply repeating yourself and haven't addressed any of my points. let me repeat. names in prophecies are used with great care. a calling lightsiders vermin is simply an insult. any other insult like dogs or idiots or worms would fit here just as well. I don't believe a prophecy would do that. a name in a prophecy has to have more meaning than that.

 

Also, as i said, the prophecy says:

and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who

will Destroy,

This clearly indicates intent. The first among Vermin wants to free Him who will Destroy. Rand wants no such thing. he very much hopes to avoid freeing the DO if possible. he says so too.

 

"Opening the Bore will not free him immediately, though it will give him more strength. It must be done regardless.

-ToM, Ch 15

breaking the seals will not free the DO right away. The bore was open for a very long time in AoL and the DO was never free. Rand wants to break the seals and remake the prison while the DO is still held. that's plan A. He is willing to risk the DO getting free for a short time but he would avoid it if he could.

[Terez]

I re-wrote the Broken Wolf section of the Dark Prophecy page. Turns out the wolf thing was thematically a little bit stronger than I realized.

[Mandro]

So here is where we're at:

Obvious-ish:

Dark One - Greatest One, He/Him, Him who will Destroy,

Mat - One-Eyed Fool

Rand - Broken Champion, First Among Vermin

Perrin - Fallen Blacksmith

Forsaken - Midnight Towers

 

Up in the air:

Lord of the Evening - Could be Moridin since Rand is Lord of the Morning, Could be the Dark One.

Broken Wolf - Slayer, Perrin, Rand, Fain, or Ituralde - Perrin and Rand seem to be the strongest case.

Death - probably real death, or could be Moridin which means "Death" - "Yeah, Perrin I met that guy once." said Moridin

 

If the Broken Wolf is Fain or Slayer - why would their destruction bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men? so they're probably out.

Ituralde or Elyas, - not really that important. men would be afraid and sorrowful, but i think most of them will be too busy fighting to care.

 

If it's Perrin - why is he referred to as two separate names? Fallen Blacksmith - He's the only blacksmith so that's him.

When has he fallen? Probably not yet. So his fall is coming. if his fall is his death then death has known him, and it will break some hearts.

He's whole as Man and Wolf. If the man part of him dies he's broken, but not dead.

Why Broken Wolf - because he's two things, Wolf and Blacksmith.

Isn't that too obvious - probably.

 

If it's Rand - Why is he referred to as three separate names - because he's Rand.

Why Broken Wolf - Red Herring, just to throw off the reader.

How will that be explained? - some don't think it has to.

Had Death known him? - Most would say yes death WILL know him soon. And Moridin and him are super close so i'd say they know each other too.

Rand would have to be both the Broken Champion, and the Broken Wolf. Might as well call him Humpty-Dumpty.

 

I agree with just about everything there apart from the First Among Vermin.

One minute Rand is a Champion, next he's Vermin? Nah, it just doesn't sit right, I think Vermin must be Fain.

 

LTT was still the first among whatever when he was LTT, and the opinions the forsaken have for the AS is minimal. The thing that sorta cemented it for me was the "raise his hand." it sorta insinuates only one hand. But I don't know.

 

As for the broken wolf I'm for perrin, because we know of three wolf brothers, Perrin, Elias and Noam. Noam lives only as a wolf, and Elias while he talks with wolves he mntioned not entering the wolf dreams, so he lives only as a man, who just happens to talk to wolves, but Perrin is split/broken between the two worlds.

 

Also, I'm of the opinion that tenobia will die, and then the broken crown will be a part of Perins legacy, so maybe that applies too.

 

I don't know, I don't try to get the prophecies right, I just like to recognize them during the read, that's part of the fun.

 

[edit: Just included the broken crown thing is all]

[Finnssss22]

I don't think any of it is linked to Fain.

It seems to me, that right from the beginning, RJ has tried to give us the sense that Fain is outside the pattern in some way.

Fain is mentioned in no prophecy that we know of and Min never sees any aura's around him, which seems strange considering that he is definitely more than just a minor player.

 

I kinda lean towards Lan as the broken Wolf but I like the Humpty Dumpty theory too

[herid]

So here is where we're at:

Obvious-ish:

Dark One - Greatest One, He/Him, Him who will Destroy,

Mat - One-Eyed Fool

Rand - Broken Champion, First Among Vermin

Perrin - Fallen Blacksmith

Forsaken - Midnight Towers

 

Up in the air:

Lord of the Evening - Could be Moridin since Rand is Lord of the Morning, Could be the Dark One.

Broken Wolf - Slayer, Perrin, Rand, Fain, or Ituralde - Perrin and Rand seem to be the strongest case.

Death - probably real death, or could be Moridin which means "Death" - "Yeah, Perrin I met that guy once." said Moridin

 

If the Broken Wolf is Fain or Slayer - why would their destruction bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men? so they're probably out.

Ituralde or Elyas, - not really that important. men would be afraid and sorrowful, but i think most of them will be too busy fighting to care.

 

If it's Perrin - why is he referred to as two separate names? Fallen Blacksmith - He's the only blacksmith so that's him.

When has he fallen? Probably not yet. So his fall is coming. if his fall is his death then death has known him, and it will break some hearts.

He's whole as Man and Wolf. If the man part of him dies he's broken, but not dead.

Why Broken Wolf - because he's two things, Wolf and Blacksmith.

Isn't that too obvious - probably.

 

If it's Rand - Why is he referred to as three separate names - because he's Rand.

Why Broken Wolf - Red Herring, just to throw off the reader.

How will that be explained? - some don't think it has to.

Had Death known him? - Most would say yes death WILL know him soon. And Moridin and him are super close so i'd say they know each other too.

Rand would have to be both the Broken Champion, and the Broken Wolf. Might as well call him Humpty-Dumpty.

 

I agree with just about everything there apart from the First Among Vermin.

One minute Rand is a Champion, next he's Vermin? Nah, it just doesn't sit right, I think Vermin must be Fain.

 

LTT was still the first among whatever when he was LTT, and the opinions the forsaken have for the AS is minimal. The thing that sorta cemented it for me was the "raise his hand." it sorta insinuates only one hand. But I don't know.

 

 

I believe this is a red herring. Rand is going to get his hand back one way or the other. This is evidenced by "he shall hold a blade of light in his hands and the three shall be one".

Of course, it's not clear when exactly Rand will get his hand back but I think both this prophecy and the part of the Dark prophecy about "raising his hand" speak of the final confrontation at Shayol Ghul so Rand should have his hand back by then.

[Terez]

Dunno about that. I think that if Rand does break the seals, it will be a part of the Epic Fail along with Callandor before his death. And of course, 'three shall be one' refers to the Warder bond saving him from death after he's ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod, and I think 'blade of light' in that instance refers to the knife ter'angreal. I tend to lean toward Rand for First Among Vermin, though I was thinking Fain for a little while after TOM.

[Mandro]

Dunno about that. I think that if Rand does break the seals, it will be a part of the Epic Fail along with Callandor before his death. And of course, 'three shall be one' refers to the Warder bond saving him from death after he's ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod, and I think 'blade of light' in that instance refers to the knife ter'angreal. I tend to lean toward Rand for First Among Vermin, though I was thinking Fain for a little while after TOM.

 

Yeah, there are still a lot of the prophecies that presage rands death at SG, gonna have to deal with the sun rising and setting twice, (which I think is death and resurrection) so putting too much into it right now is just conjecture, FUN, but still just guess, maybe well informed ones, but who knows? That's why I'm going through the series aain, just to catch some of the things I might not hvae linked. Like some subtlties, such as "oddly the only one who was unhorsed is matt." Matt being very familiar with horses is kinda soft played, jut like at the golden bowl how matt horses in a simple leap. Or How matt gets pulled off his horse in SL by a trolloc using a horsemans loop, or noose. finding little stuff like that is fun, and talking about the prophesies now preps us for more of that fun stuff in the final book.

[herid]

Dunno about that. I think that if Rand does break the seals, it will be a part of the Epic Fail along with Callandor before his death. And of course, 'three shall be one' refers to the Warder bond saving him from death after he's ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod, and I think 'blade of light' in that instance refers to the knife ter'angreal. I tend to lean toward Rand for First Among Vermin, though I was thinking Fain for a little while after TOM.

well, I don't know about the "of course" part or about the blade of light being the knife ter'angreal (care to elaborate on this one?)... but ok, I certainly don't have a theory how all of this will go down so yes, it's possible that the part about "lifting his hand to fee Him who will Destroy" may occur before Rand gets his hand back.

 

But I also tend to think that the First among Vermin is Moridin, not Rand in which case the timing of Rand recovering his hand would not matter.

[Mandro]

Dunno about that. I think that if Rand does break the seals, it will be a part of the Epic Fail along with Callandor before his death. And of course, 'three shall be one' refers to the Warder bond saving him from death after he's ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod, and I think 'blade of light' in that instance refers to the knife ter'angreal. I tend to lean toward Rand for First Among Vermin, though I was thinking Fain for a little while after TOM.

well, I don't know about the "of course" part or about the blade of light being the knife ter'angreal (care to elaborate on this one?)... but ok, I certainly don't have a theory how all of this will go down so yes, it's possible that the part about "lifting his hand to fee Him who will Destroy" may occur before Rand gets his hand back.

 

I think the knife ter'angreal is one of the first ones that aviendha identified. Something like "Anyone holding this is hidden from the shadow."

[Terez]

'The Shadow does not need her to find me, Min, nor will it ever again. All its eyes are fixed directly upon me, and will be until I blind them.'

 

That's good foreshadowing right there. Because Rand is talking about whenever he does his thing, but he doesn't mean it literally. He just means he's going to seal the Bore and blind the Dark One that way. But the knife ter'angreal will come first. Just like Rand didn't mean it literally when he said 'I will climb this bloody mountain and face the sun.' I think this is Brandon's style of foreshadowing, as opposed to RJ's, or rather Brandon's attempt at RJ's style of foreshadowing.

[Entreri]

I have no question now that the BROKEN WOLF is Rand. A lot of foreshadowing to his death, and ONLY his death would have that kind of impact.

 

Mat and Perrin are too insignificant and their deaths would not result "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall SHAKE THEIR VERY WILL ITSELF".

 

Definitely Rand will die...but who will kill him? "Be consumed by the Midnight Towers" indicate one or more of the Forsaken. Ishamael confrontation? Demandred? Lanfear? Demandred has been essentially useless for 13 books, and he is bound to have a chapter or two in the last book before dying.

 

Rand will die but he will certainly be resurrected: "And the Lord of the Evening shall face the BROKEN CHAMPION".