RJ asks you to re-write the entire series...

[Viezael]

Well I guess it's good some people like Min. :) I like Aveindha and Elayne much more, though.

 

It has always rubbed me the wrong way that they're all sharing him -- *weirded out* but -- since they are sharing him, Min gets to be with him more than anyone else, and it seems (to me) that he likes her the best. I guess I just think she's a little selfish to insist on always being with him with Aviendha and Elayne can't. But, oh well --

 

Do they have contraception in Randland? lol

[Viezael]

The annoying thing...I just find her insisting to go against what Rand says all the time and calling him a woolhead and thinking she knows better him is annoying. I mean, I'm a strong woman myself, but it still BUGS me--more so than any of the other women in the series.

 

Hmm...I guess it's odd that she annoys me most...I'll have to think about why...

[Zardi]

But that's just it, she doesn't go against him all the time. She tries to keep him from doing dumb things, and when he's acting like a woolhead (we all do, sometimes) she has the guts to tell him so. The two examples that immediately spring to mind are when Rand went to deal with the rebels (when he met Caraline Damodred and all those guys), and when Rand got that note in Far Madding and actually stepped into the trap. The first time, he received a second incurable wound that would have killed him if not for the coincidental presence of several Aes Sedai. The second time, he fell off a roof and got thrown into a prison cell which further hardened him because it reminded him of his kidnapping. In other words, Min was right both times. She may not be the Dragon Reborn, but you must admit that Rand isn't always the most logical creature, and therefore ordinary people often do know better than he does.

 

Min stays around him because she can. Aviendha has long had the chance to join up with Rand. Instead she chose to first pretend she hated him and didn't want a relationship with him, then chose to stick by Elayne rather than Rand. Rand never had to push her away because she always wanted to be somewhere else. Elayne chose to claim her throne rather than be near Rand -- a smart choice on her part. However, it was her choice, and you have to admit that there's no way Rand could have remained in Caemlyn just to be around her; he has his own mission, too, which is more important than Elayne's. He doesn't like Min more -- he has said as much on more than one occasion -- it's just that he hasn't been able to send her away since she doesn't want to be anywhere except right by his side. If Aviendha or Elayne used Min's tactics, then they'd be around Rand all the time, too. But they have chosen a different course.

 

Point is, you can't blame or punish Min for Aviendha and Elayne's choices. She's not being selfish by choosing to be near Rand, and her being there has not forced either of the others to stay away, either.

 

And yes, they have a contraceptive tea in Randland. Elayne talks about it at some point after finding out she got pregnant. Can't remember which book, though.

 

Ben, I wasn't having a go at Aviendha. Like I said, I do like her and I see nothing wrong with her choosing to support Elayne. And yes, I'm glad that she stuck up for Mat. I was merely pointing out why I believe Min's recent actions are more important than Aviendha's, since someone claimed that Elayne and Aviendha have been doing more than Min in the later books. I disagree with that claim, is all.

[Gentled Ben]

Ben, I wasn't having a go at Aviendha. Like I said, I do like her and I see nothing wrong with her choosing to support Elayne. And yes, I'm glad that she stuck up for Mat. I was merely pointing out why I believe Min's recent actions are more important than Aviendha's, since someone claimed that Elayne and Aviendha have been doing more than Min in the later books. I disagree with that claim, is all.

 

Gotcha. I disagree with that claim, as well.

[Gandaal]

The annoying thing...I just find her insisting to go against what Rand says all the time and calling him a woolhead and thinking she knows better him is annoying. I mean, I'm a strong woman myself, but it still BUGS me--more so than any of the other women in the series.

 

Hmm...I guess it's odd that she annoys me most...I'll have to think about why...

Min? :shock:

 

You just described every single other women in Rands life bar Min. They ALL think they know better than Rand and they ALL want to tell him what to do and they ALL get upset when he doesn't see it that way, with the exception of Min. Its one of the reasons I like Min. She may disagree with him from time to time and she wants to protect him from danger but she can be reasoned with and she doesn't act like Rand's an idiot while she's the font of all knowledge who couldn't possibly be disagreed with like some others I could mention *cough* Egwene *cough*

[Lews Therin Telamon]

If RJ asked me to rewrite the whole series there would be a Darkfriend Ta'veren to add to the chaos

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good gawd, I may actually agree with Maj about something. The universe is truly about to end.

 

I don't object to women being in a superior position. What I do object to is that Jordan flogs us to death with it. Like many things throughout the series, it's simply completely overdone. Things, mannerisms, events, are overused to the point of triteness. That's just bad literature, and may illustrate the folly of having one's spouse as his editor.

 

The list of extraneous storylines that could be eliminated is too long to go into. Likewise the list of characters whom we never needed to meet. A complete listing of the Dramatis Personae to this point would probably fill 300 pages. That's too many characters.

 

For a rewrite, I'd hope for more flexibility and growth rather than the boring rigidity that the characters all display. After 11 books, people who started out as about emotional 14 year olds have only progressed to about 14 1/2.

 

If Jordan had progressed as he started in "The Eye of the World", this would have been one of the very best trilogies ever, and we'd be here now discussing follow-on books and series.

[Gentled Ben]

For a rewrite, I'd hope for more flexibility and growth rather than the boring rigidity that the characters all display. After 11 books, people who started out as about emotional 14 year olds have only progressed to about 14 1/2.

 

Wow. One of the things that has struck me most about this series is how much I've watched those kids change. :shock: Everyone sees things differently, I suppose. Of the five who left Emond's Field, to me, only Perrin has remained fairly static. Rand and Egwene are entirely different people, and Egwene, to me, shows a great deal of maturity. More than many of the adults *cough* Elaida *cough* in the series, in fact.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Even an average 14 yr old would display more maturity than Elaida.

 

KoD gave us the first real growth by anyone. Mat finally stopped running away from everything and started slowly moving toward something. Nynaeve ( who is supposed to be in her mid to late 20's ) finally began to realize that a big part of deserving the love and respect of someone is allowing them to determine their own destiny ( even if you disagree with their choice ). It remains to be seen whether she'll extend that forbearance to anyone other than Lan.

 

Egwene made some smart decisions. ( YAY! Finally somebody did something intelligent. ) Emotionally though, she's still tied up with the whole dysfunctional Aes Sedai way of operating.

 

Perrin became even more of a putz. He would have sold his soul to the DO to get Faile back. Luckily he just had to make a temporary deal with the Seanchan.

 

Rand remained pretty static.

 

Some growth, sure. Not enough. Not after 2+ years and everything each of them has been through.

 

Additionally, I'd hope for some clarifications. What role do the Ogier play in the outcome? The Tinkers? Are the Sea Folk there simply to provide a little logistical support?

 

There's one book to go and we still have no idea how so many of the players are supposed to fit into the overall framework. So little time and space left and so many open questions.

[Gentled Ben]

Nynaeve ( who is supposed to be in her mid to late 20's ) finally began to realize that a big part of deserving the love and respect of someone is allowing them to determine their own destiny ( even if you disagree with their choice ). It remains to be seen whether she'll extend that forbearance to anyone other than Lan.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Of them all, I've always felt Nynaeve was the least mature, depsite her age, and her bossiness, at times, has been almost unbearable. I was stunned that she let Lan have his head. She's not head-over-heels in love with everyone else though, so I doubt that we'll see it extended to the others.

 

Mat was a scamp for most of the books, but he was a kid at the start; he was (sort-of) acting his age. Nynaeve, until KoD, never really has. Still, I think she's changed a great deal. She's much more openminded than she was at first, at least.

[Viezael]

A darkfriend Ta'veren...THAT would be interesting. Maybe there already is one...dun dun dun...j/k I doubt it. But that would definitely spice things up.

 

I have very mixed feelings about the millions of characters in the books. In some ways, yeah I don't remember who most of them are and am frustrated that I can't read about people I actually am interested in. Recently (and I am shocked to discover this) I realized that because there are a jillion characters, countries, cultures etc.--Randland seems more real to me. There are so many everyday people introduced and you can see how they live their lives --

 

I would not feel as connected to the WOT land if there weren't so many characters.

:idea: Who would have thought?

[Maigan]

I've been reading and re-reading the WoT books for a while now, and havent gotten to rereading the later books though, Anyways. I don't remember any mention of the Land of Madmen. Could someone help me out here? Which book and all that. thanks

[Necrophorus]

First of all I wouldnt change a single thing. It just wouldnt be the series as it is now. Rewriting is bad, just start over from scratch if you want to do something different.

CoT is said to be the worst book of the series, I disagree, it was actually the first book I felt what the people were going through, the others were fun to read, but it was more happenings.

Character development... I do agree some people arent smart at all. Elaida is the most prominent example. But everyone has done his or her stupid thing, makes them more likeable in my opinion. And Nynaeve has had trouble adjusting herself to the new order of things, that is mainly why she got mad in the first place, she did need a husband to settle down. But well only a couple of years have passed since the start of the book and you have seen every character coping with what they heard in their own way, isnt that character development either. Anyway, either you want a shorter book without any development but more action or you want a longer one with more thoughts of the persons.

On the whole man/woman thing... Dont think it's that bad at all. Mat doesnt just lie down, Rand is definitely not inferior to any of his loves. Perrin same thing although he doesnt think himself up to ruling and the like, whereas he thinks his wife is. And yes in ebou dar a woman is allowed to kill a guy. In some parts of our world a man is allowed to kill a woman, both are insane so why cant it happen in fantasy?

 

I've read a number of fantasy series now. I think WoT is one of the best. The only ones that can come up to his (RJ's) level (and maybe pass) are the series by Steven Erikson and by Stephen Donaldson (although the last is difficult for some people to appreciate I guess, although he does let his character develop).

[Gandaal]

Even an average 14 yr old would display more maturity than Elaida.

 

KoD gave us the first real growth by anyone. Mat finally stopped running away from everything and started slowly moving toward something. Nynaeve ( who is supposed to be in her mid to late 20's ) finally began to realize that a big part of deserving the love and respect of someone is allowing them to determine their own destiny ( even if you disagree with their choice ). It remains to be seen whether she'll extend that forbearance to anyone other than Lan.

 

Egwene made some smart decisions. ( YAY! Finally somebody did something intelligent. ) Emotionally though, she's still tied up with the whole dysfunctional Aes Sedai way of operating.

 

Perrin became even more of a putz. He would have sold his soul to the DO to get Faile back. Luckily he just had to make a temporary deal with the Seanchan.

 

Rand remained pretty static.

 

Some growth, sure. Not enough. Not after 2+ years and everything each of them has been through.

 

Additionally, I'd hope for some clarifications. What role do the Ogier play in the outcome? The Tinkers? Are the Sea Folk there simply to provide a little logistical support?

 

There's one book to go and we still have no idea how so many of the players are supposed to fit into the overall framework. So little time and space left and so many open questions.

Are you kidding me? You really need to re-read Eye of the World paying attention to their emotional maturity at the same time. Most of them have grown siginficant over the period of the books, some of them to such a degree that you wouldn't recognise them if you just from book 1 to book 11 and changed the names. The main exception seems to be Nynaeve who seems to have gone backwards at a rapid rate of knots for some unknown and irritating reason.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I've been reading and re-reading the WoT books for a while now, and havent gotten to rereading the later books though, Anyways. I don't remember any mention of the Land of Madmen. Could someone help me out here? Which book and all that. thanks

 

The Land of the Madmen is only mentioned briefly in the affectionately titled "Big White Book" (officially called The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time). It is a smaller continent, far south of Randland, on which no civilization is known to have developed after the Breaking. Male Channelers apparently still roam free and insane (hence the name). This description is supposedly from snippets of Sea Folk rumors about the place. No one in the books has been there, at least not that we are aware of.

[skalors3]

1) Remove land of madmen and shara from the story- I've never understood why they are in an end of a world epic' date=' when they are probably not going to affect the outcome.[/quote']

 

I think that these characters will come up in the other books that RJ would like to write.

 

3) Action Rand Action- I enjoy the political intrigue' date=' but to me the best chapters are when Rand is fighting or when he is acting on a plan. Add one or two more action bits into the books for Rand, he the hero![/quote']

 

Yes, but any one of the men from the black tower can fight. Taim is nearly as strong as Rand. I think it is important to establish why he and no one else is the Dragon Reborn and is the only one fit to fulfill prophecies. He makes great decisions and he doesn't realize it.

 

5) Don't have the bad guys get reborn. This seemed to easy when compared to the rest of the series. I think that as the Forsaken got clipped' date=' SH could slow become more prevalent. I may be biased because I love SH as a bad guy! I also think that the TP is not as interesting as the OP.[/quote']

 

He is proving many points by doing this. One of which I think is Asmodean. If he wasn't killed with Balefire, he can also be pulled back out of the wheel. It seemed to me that the only reason he continued to serve the DO was for protection from the taint. I think there will be more to the forsaken being brought back alive than we know yet.

 

Things I would change.

 

1.) More Mat - The guy is a riot. Bottom line.

 

2.) Less Faile - Her relationship is to Perrin is truly annoying. Integral or not, it is still annoying.

 

3.) I would stop using the line (in any variation) "Mat and Rand always knew how to handle women."

 

4.) He may get here in the last book, but I want to see a use for the sword training in the black tower.

[Kocisz]

on't forgett Rand hooking up with Lanfear instead those other three.. or in addition to :)

[Dark Justice]

imagine Rand & Lanfear with kick ass Sangreal challenge both the DO & the Creator

 

Now THAT would be something

[RobertAlexWillis]

Except that only one .... kick bunny .... sa'angreal is left. The female Choedan Kal is sa'angreal soup.

[Dark Justice]

I meant back in the old days. Pre cleansing. When Lanfear gave him that option. Dont remember exactly in wich book, but you know what Im saying.

 

 

Ps. I really like the sencoreship of this site..

kick bunny :shock:

Why would anyone want to kick a bunny?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh, OK ... and yeah, I do know what you're saying.

 

 

That would have been interesting, but it would have made it a four book series.

[stoneface]

Remember back in tEotW when Moiraine and Lan could sense things of the Shadow, and the bad thingies in the Blight drew back from Moiraine because they knew what she was? I notice it has been papered over, but I suspect that those are things that RJ would like to rewrite. Overall, RJ has given us a believable transition from "watching the magic" to "doing the magic" which has tripped up so many authors as the young apprentice learns the art (power, force, psi, magic, magik, whatever).

 

Some of the middle books drag, the Faile captivity was endless, the courtship of Tuon could have skipped a few villages. The pace of tEotW and tGH was good, especially in terms of Forsaken body count. Then the Forsaken started getting recycled... . And yes, the main characters always survive, which takes away a lot of the excitement. Sure, a few thousand people are killed in the battles, but virtually none that we know and like.

 

I'm trying to figure out a better way to handle captures, too. Amico and Joiya were killed by unknown DO forces, Moghedien escaped, for example, but the good guys are frequently short on resolve to eliminate DFs, typically to their later detriment. Yeah, killing a captured enemy is not nice, but can you always count on the DO to do the dirty work? RJ does illustrate the classic conundrum of the good going up against the ruthless, so maybe I wouldn't change it anyway.

[imrathill]

Amico and Joiya wasnt killed by random, they were killed by the one who is called luke/isam

[stoneface]

This isn't the only time that an inconvenient DF prisoner (Black Ajah included) has been terminated rather than rescued by DO minions of some sort.

[Oregon]

Dah. I think that WoT has got to be both the best and most frustrating fantasy series I've read. It builds such staggering potential through the first three or so books, that it's really too bad to watch it piddle it away in fits and starts over the next eight or nine.

 

I think the periodic references we get to things outside of the main storyline are one of WoT's greatest strengths. Things like mentions of Shara and the Land of Madmen add to the breadth and depth of the world, without taking up much space on the page.

 

Faile's Imprisonment by the Shaido was the subplot that caused me the most grief, however. By the end of it, I was almost ready to hurl the book across the room.

 

As someone mentioned a number of posts ago, this did clear up some lingering issues (e.g., the Shaido no longer threaten much of anything), but it took an ungodly number of words to do it - and it was deadly dull!

 

I think the idea of a Dark Ta'veren is truly fantastic. I've been holding out hope for this for some time, but then again I'm a sucker for lost causes.

 

The biggest overall flaw in the series, though, is the fact that we never feel like the main characters are in any danger. Sure, it's almost a given that Mat, Perrin, and Rand will make it to TG, but why does Egwene need to? Or Elayne? Lan?

 

By far the biggest shock moment for me, in the whole series, was when Elaida swooped in and had Suian Sanche stilled between a couple of hearbeats. Even then - and that must've been way back in SR or some such - it seemed like a rare event to see actual change affect a main character (which Siuan isn't, exactly, anyway).

 

The only other thing that came close was the quick one-two punch of Moiraine and Lanfear going down, and Asmodean being murdered not long afterwards.

 

Somehow the stakes have gotten too low. Someone major needed to die or, failing that, be turned to the Shadow (by choice, or via the vaunted thirteen channelers/thirteen myddraal combo).

 

I guess it's a testament to everything the series does well that I've put up all its many foibles.