Blood Knives vs. Fades vs. Gawyn

[T00thbrush]

Just curious - am I the only one who had a very hard time believing Gawyn was capable of killing 3 bloodknives? I have to say the result of this particular fight felt extremely contrived to me. As in - Gawyn needed to do something badass for plotline purposes (= to make Egwene bond him and love him and all that sweet romantic stuff), so that was that.

 

I feel Lan > Galad > Gawyn is the go, as stated by Sanderson. I also think Galad will become the best blademaster given a few more years.

[anotherfingolfin]

Just curious - am I the only one who had a very hard time believing Gawyn was capable of killing 3 bloodknives? I have to say the result of this particular fight felt extremely contrived to me. As in - Gawyn needed to do something badass for plotline purposes (= to make Egwene bond him and love him and all that sweet romantic stuff), so that was that.

 

That's EXACTLY how I felt. What added to the contrived-ness of it all was the fact that there were seemingly no poisons or other tricks used by the Bloodknives. Though the villains-are-useless law of the WoT universe may make the situation more understandable.

[johthohar]

As for the topic, the blood knives are assassins not blademasters. While they are highly proficient with blades it is not their skill with blades which they rely on.

 

Bloodknives are the best warriors among the Fist of Heaven without the rings. Not to mention the Fist of Heaven is an elite group to begin with. I think it's safe to say they are pretty good with a blade, if maybe not as good as a blade master.

 

Seeing how the Myrdraal can sense channelling I would assume they would have no problem noticing the blood knives. Especially since they don't have regular vision anyways. However they manage to see, they apparently don't rely on light since they have no eyes.

 

Bloodknives don't channel. The ter'angreal they have use OP but there is nothing that says myrddraal can detect ter'angreal. There is merit to the theory that, since myrddraal don't have eyes they must not rely on dark and since bloodknives rings seem to bend light some how maybe the fades could "see" them. I like it.

[SharpDressedAsha'Man]

Just curious - am I the only one who had a very hard time believing Gawyn was capable of killing 3 bloodknives? I have to say the result of this particular fight felt extremely contrived to me.

I don't, simply because the Seanchan are so far up their own arses they almost match the Aes Sedai for self-inflating egos.

 

Three almost-invisible, well-trained assassins taking on one swordsman (albeit, an excellent one), and failing? If they were as mortally dedicated to the mission as stated, one of them would have simply thrown himself at Gawyn to give the others a clean killing blow as soon as they realised he was no easy pickings. The pomp and ceremony surrounding every aspect of Seanchan culture is what gives them their position as 'most elite', due to the deadly dedication to the mission. It's no wonder they all expect to die in the field if this is the general level of competence they show.

[johthohar]

Just curious - am I the only one who had a very hard time believing Gawyn was capable of killing 3 bloodknives? I have to say the result of this particular fight felt extremely contrived to me. As in - Gawyn needed to do something badass for plotline purposes (= to make Egwene bond him and love him and all that sweet romantic stuff), so that was that.

 

That's EXACTLY how I felt. What added to the contrived-ness of it all was the fact that there were seemingly no poisons or other tricks used by the Bloodknives. Though the villains-are-useless law of the WoT universe may make the situation more understandable.

 

It could be that they did use poisons. Siuane's healing cured whatshisface when he got poisoned. Maybe Gawyn was poisoned and her healing zapped that along with all his other wounds. He wouldn't have noticed the effects of a poison with his adrenaline all jacked up during the fight.

[Rookie.Rider]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

 

Well stated, Grayson. I agree.

 

All of these blademasters will do something swesome from time to time, but rankings would not necessarily change between them from moment to moment. Besides, who is to say that Lan, or Galad, would not have had as much success against the Bloodknives? While Galad probably has not had to face the same level of adversity, does not necessarily mean that he would not perform as well, if put in the same situation. And Lan has fought off his share of Shadowspawn and Aiel to count for a lot. But you put forth the best case, that the Author would certainly know who is better than who.

[billegoat]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

Maybe his luck is just him having access to Saidin without realising it?

 

That would make a funny scene at FOM when they meet together and Rand tells Egwene that Gawyn can channel.

 

 

that quote about gawyn also makes me wonder if he can channel but doesn't realize it yet.

[Gasha]

I'd say Lan. He has been described as one of the greatest swordsmen alive throughout the entire series - While Galad and Gawyn might've done impressive stuff, they don't come near Lan's consistency.

 

Gawyn might've defeated the two warders, but two battles really don't prove that much. While I do not know anything about swordfighting, I doubt it's as easy as "a greater swordsman will always defeat a lesser one" - there'll always be incidents that break away from the general statistic. Lan has proven his skill through countless battles through the series, while the arguments for Galad and Gawyn seem to be based more on indivudual scenes.

 

*edit*

Typo...

[bysomy]

i'd say it goes (Tam) Lan, Galad, Rand, Gawyn. Gawyn has killed two (old) warders and some assasins. Galad hasn't really had a challenge, but the author says he is better. Rand would stare Gawyn down and then cut his throat. In Salidar, Lan did something to the affect of practicing so awesomely he made three warders start drooling. Tam's too nice too kill.

[Elan Tedronai]

the dragon reborn right now would meet the same fate as those shaido aiel in dumai wells if he faces gawyn. Down and out within a few seconds

[jmikea]

Lancelot > Galahad > Gawain. Although Galahad later ended up surpassing his father Lancelot, Gawain was never really in the picture. I'm sticking with that and Brandon's stance on it.

 

Rand is out of the blademaster business until he invents the rapier or grows a new hand. He'd lose if he stood toe-to-toe with any of them without using the power. Before he lost the hand, he'd give Lan a run and beat the other two hands-down.

[b3arz3rg3r]

In tradition with an old wotpage I used to visit. Lan is an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

As for the topic, the blood knives are assassins not blademasters. While they are highly proficient with blades it is not their skill with blades which they rely on. Seeing how the Myrdraal can sense channelling I would assume they would have no problem noticing the blood knives. Especially since they don't have regular vision anyways. However they manage to see, they apparently don't rely on light since they have no eyes.

 

1. how do you know they are not good with swords?

2. what makes you think fades can sense blood knives?

 

All in all, Seanchen consider blood knives to be pretty much unstoppable. Granted it might be somewhat of a legend, considering the different weapons at Seanchan's disposal blood knives seem to be very, very formidable indeed. We don't know if blood knife can take a fade, but IMO the answer is yes. Speed is a lot in the fight and they def got that.

 

1. I never said they weren't good with their swords. I just don't think they are worthy the title of blademaster.

 

2. They use ter'angreal which channel the power to increase their abilities, don't they? The Myrdraal ought to be able to sense that. And there's that weave which makes them invisible.

 

Blood Knives are considered unstoppable, because they are expert killers who are invisible and who are supernaturally quick. And usually they are right, however against Myrdraal they may lose their invisibility advantage and Myrdraal have always been described as very quick as well. I just don't think myrdraal are an ideal match up for them. It might be individual skill which decides the fight.

 

in the fight against the blood knives, Gawyn did believe they were using real blademaster sword forms. they may not be blademasters per se but my guess is they are close. But vs fades, my guess is they would need to experience (or have it explained really well) the way fades die to get used to it, then they will be fine. I can see a few dieing from the surprise of a decapitated fade still fighting.

 

If the Myrdraal can see them I would say it's a coin toss. Whoever is the better fighter will win.

 

 

Bloodknives don't channel. The ter'angreal they have use OP but there is nothing that says myrddraal can detect ter'angreal. There is merit to the theory that, since myrddraal don't have eyes they must not rely on dark and since bloodknives rings seem to bend light some how maybe the fades could "see" them. I like it.

 

We have seen several times that there is no difference between a ter'angreal drawing power or a channeler doing it in regards to the "noise" it makes. Since the BK do not channel their ter'angreal which increase their speed need to draw the OP to do their job

[johthohar]

We have seen several times that there is no difference between a ter'angreal drawing power or a channeler doing it in regards to the "noise" it makes. Since the BK do not channel their ter'angreal which increase their speed need to draw the OP to do their job

 

Where have we seen this? We don't know how ter'angreal work. We know they use the One Power to some effect. We don't know how they use it. I doubt they "channel" OP in any traditional sense. But feel free to actually show evidence from the text instead of vaguely implying there is any.

[Taura-Tierno]

The only instances I can remember about ter'angreal drawing on the OP in a way that can be seen are when they've used ter'angreal that actually require active channeling. The Bowl of Winds drew on both saidin and saidar. The callbox the Shaido used to contact Sammael drew on both halves of the source.

 

All of Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's ter'angreal, on the other hand, also seem to have weave-like effects (unraveling weaves, providing protection, detecting channeling etc) without ever being indicated as actually making "noise" of any kind. I would consider the Blood Knife rings the same type of ter'angreal. Increased physical attributes does, for instance, feel very similar to Nynaeve's ter'angreal that creates a "shield as strong as iron" or Mats medallion that provides protection against weaves. I guess I mean to say that they seem more passive, in a way.

 

There is also the dull knife from the Ebou Dar cache. http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/dull_dagger.html

 

Aviendha says it'll prevent the shadow from detecting the wearer, including Myrddraal. If that's possible, I'd say it's very possible that Myrddraal wouldn't be able to sense the Blood Knives. I'm only saying it's possible, not that it's true. But there is nothing to indicate that a Myrddraal must be able to sense someone wearing a Blood Knife's rings.

[blazetheearth]

I guess it is a pretty thorny issue. On the one hand, Lan might have gotten better. He also might have gotten worse with age, though that doesn't seem likely. After Moiraine "died" he continued working on his swordsmanship, right? I seem to remember a scene with him practicing. So, if he has been doing nothing but practicing since The Shadow Rising ... he very well might be stronger than Gawyn. I am just focusing on the only thing (sword-wise) that Gawyn and Lan have in common: they both fought Sleete. And against Sleete, I would say Gawyn was more dominant. Honestly though, it might also come down to a discussion of experience versus talent. Obviously Lan has significantly more experience than Gawyn, who is still young, and only recently demonstrated superior sword skills. I am curious ... what are the rough estimates for Lan's age? Do we know how long ago it was that he sparred with other Warders?

 

Moiraine was raised to the Shawl something like 20 or 25 years ago? Or was it longer? Anyway, I would put Lan's age around mid 40's and would guess it's been at least 20 years since he sparred regularly with other warders.

 

 

Ok. For some reason I thought he was much older than that. Assuming he is ~40, his skills wouldn't really have slipped due to age.

 

He was in a cradle when Malkier fell and that took place in 955 NE, so assuming child that would still use a cradle could at most be 2 or 3 years old that would make Lan 47 or 48.

 

And as far as who is best, until we see a duel, I doubt we will ever truly know, but one of the main reasons I think that Lan is the best comes from Agelmar in tEotW.

 

Only five of the bodyguards reached Fal Moran alive, every man wounded, but they had the child unharmed. From the cradle they taught him all they knew, he learned weapons as other children learned toys. And the Blight as other children, their mother's garden

 

None of the others were taught as much when they were as young, none of the others spent their teen years in the Blight fighting for their lives. None of the others were taught by elite Borderland royal bodyguards since they could walk. By the time Lan was Gawyn's age he had spent at least 5 years riding into the Blight and fighting Trollocs and Myrrdral and other Shadowspawn.

I would think that if Lan (at Gawyn's current age) had come up against 3 BKs he would have bested them. The Seanchan seem to be better soldiers as a group, but nothing we have seen indicates that any individual is that much better trained or taught than those of Randland.

As a matter of fact there is evidence that their "best" are in fact less skilled than Randland's best. When we see the fight between Turok and Rand in tGH. Turok disparages Rand's skill, because rand had not assumed the Void, but once Rand assumed the Void, a farmboy, with a few months of training by Lan was able to defeat a Seanchan Blademaster. Lan had even told him earlier in that book that he could have made Rand a blademaster in 5 years, but gave nothing to indicate that Rand could have stood up to someone like Valda or Hammar.

Rand did not gain a lot of experience between Fal Dara and Falme, so the only conclusion is that being a Blademaster among the Seanchan does not require the level of skill that being one in Randland does. That being said, the BK's are among the most skilled the Seanchan have, but they seem to depend on the ter'angreal too much. Once that advantage was neutralized, they were no harder to defeat than 3 average Warders, and we had already seen Gawyn defeat 2 Warders w/o taking a hit, one of whom is much better than average.

[blazetheearth]

We have seen several times that there is no difference between a ter'angreal drawing power or a channeler doing it in regards to the "noise" it makes. Since the BK do not channel their ter'angreal which increase their speed need to draw the OP to do their job

 

Where have we seen this? We don't know how ter'angreal work. We know they use the One Power to some effect. We don't know how they use it. I doubt they "channel" OP in any traditional sense. But feel free to actually show evidence from the text instead of vaguely implying there is any.

 

I agree, I would think that the Rings draw the OP only on activation, once activated, they use the body's own energy (not the OP) to continue to function, which is why the wearer dies within a few days of the ter'angreal's full activation.

[SvetSedi]

Anyone else think that Gawyn + his Warder Cloak + one of the Rings might go on a killing rampage through the Seanchan forces if they attack again? Ordinarily, the Blood Knives wear black clothing to help them hide in shadows. But with a Warder cloak I think that they might be even more deadly and not have to keep to the shadows. Also, although Blood Knives are good assassins, I do not think that they are Blades masters. I think Gawyn would be awesome in that role. It might redeem him a little (he was so bad for the last few books) going on a suicide mission like that. I might even like him again.

 

Unfortunately, Nyneave would probably heal him after.

[tollstrm]

It would've been cool to see Rand develop farther as a blademaster, especially with the ninja skills he learned from the Aiel. It'd also be great to see him own with just one hand

[T00thbrush]

That's EXACTLY how I felt. What added to the contrived-ness of it all was the fact that there were seemingly no poisons or other tricks used by the Bloodknives. Though the villains-are-useless law of the WoT universe may make the situation more understandable.

 

Thank you. I feel less alone I do think Gawyn could have taken on and defeated one bloodknife (especially in a situation when he is going all out because Egwene's life in on the line), but 3 at once is really pushing it. To me the author (whether it's RJ's or BS's idea, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter) has gone overboard on that one.

 

As an aside, I wasn't satisfied with this fight serving as a resolution to the Egwene/Gawyn plotline/relationship. 1. it's too easy/contrived, and 2. Gawyn's epiphany struck me as illogical. I mean the man decides he has to be a Warder and obey Egwene now, and then what does he do? Promptly decides to interfere again, just like he did the time before, except this time he gets "lucky" (as in, his interference was actually needed). Does not make a great deal of sense to me.

 

I don't, simply because the Seanchan are so far up their own arses they almost match the Aes Sedai for self-inflating egos.

 

Three almost-invisible, well-trained assassins taking on one swordsman (albeit, an excellent one), and failing? If they were as mortally dedicated to the mission as stated, one of them would have simply thrown himself at Gawyn to give the others a clean killing blow as soon as they realised he was no easy pickings. The pomp and ceremony surrounding every aspect of Seanchan culture is what gives them their position as 'most elite', due to the deadly dedication to the mission. It's no wonder they all expect to die in the field if this is the general level of competence they show.

 

The Seanchan are definitely very arrogant and very ceremonious, but I do not see them as wimps or weaklings. Look at the way they've been conquering Randland. The Seanchans are the ONLY force (apart from the DO's) that can actually resist the Dragon Reborn. So I reckon their bloodknives and other elite warriors must be pretty good.

 

Anyone else think that Gawyn + his Warder Cloak + one of the Rings might go on a killing rampage through the Seanchan forces if they attack again? Ordinarily, the Blood Knives wear black clothing to help them hide in shadows. But with a Warder cloak I think that they might be even more deadly and not have to keep to the shadows. Also, although Blood Knives are good assassins, I do not think that they are Blades masters. I think Gawyn would be awesome in that role. It might redeem him a little (he was so bad for the last few books) going on a suicide mission like that. I might even like him again.

 

Unfortunately, Nyneave would probably heal him after.

 

I've been wondering about that. But as there are 3 rings, what I've mainly been wondering about is: who are the other 2 warriors he will give the rings to? These ter'angreals are way too handy not to be used in TG. I've been wondering if we will see a Rand + Galad + Gawyn badass attack. Or maybe he'll just give them to other Warders or members of the Tower Guards (not as exciting!).

 

It would've been cool to see Rand develop farther as a blademaster, especially with the ninja skills he learned from the Aiel. It'd also be great to see him own with just one hand

 

I have to say I don't mind Rand taking a step back as blademaster. The man is already the most powerful channeler alive, and seems to have acquired complete mastery over saidin, not to mention being able to call on to the True Power. He doesn't really need to be the best blademaster on top of that!

[Suttree]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

Maybe his luck is just him having access to Saidin without realising it?

 

That would make a funny scene at FOM when they meet together and Rand tells Egwene that Gawyn can channel.

 

If either of the brothers can, the hints we have gotten so far point to Galad being the one who has the potential to channel. That would make for an even better scene the Lord Captain Commander channeling and all...

[johthohar]

Anyone else think that Gawyn + his Warder Cloak + one of the Rings might go on a killing rampage through the Seanchan forces if they attack again? Ordinarily, the Blood Knives wear black clothing to help them hide in shadows. But with a Warder cloak I think that they might be even more deadly and not have to keep to the shadows. Also, although Blood Knives are good assassins, I do not think that they are Blades masters. I think Gawyn would be awesome in that role. It might redeem him a little (he was so bad for the last few books) going on a suicide mission like that. I might even like him again.

 

Unfortunately, Nyneave would probably heal him after.

 

I've been wondering about that. But as there are 3 rings, what I've mainly been wondering about is: who are the other 2 warriors he will give the rings to? These ter'angreals are way too handy not to be used in TG. I've been wondering if we will see a Rand + Galad + Gawyn badass attack. Or maybe he'll just give them to other Warders or members of the Tower Guards (not as exciting!).

 

This has been discussed at length in other threads. I'm more interested in the possibility of a stacking effect (i.e. Gawyn wearing all three rings and being three times as badass). Him keeping the rings is one of the reasons I'm sure he will die in the next book.

[Entreri]

The best blade master in the world with 100% certainty is Lan. Lan after losing Moraine went to another level, I put it beyond Jearom.

 

Why? Simply put RJ said so.

 

RJ said that Lan was better than Rand. Subsequently he said Rand (before losing his arm) was better than Galad. Sanderson said Lan > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn

 

Q.E.D

 

 

As for the blood knife, it is essentially equal to 1 Fade. If the 2 blood knives were going full out on Gawyn he would be dead. Certainly Gawyn is more than a match for 1 Fade.

 

Gawyn > Blood Knife = Fade

 

Gawyn is an elite blade master, one of the top 10 in the world without a doubt, if not top 5.

[Suttree]

The best blade master in the world with 100% certainty is Lan. Lan after losing Moraine went to another level, I put it beyond Jearom.

 

Why? Simply put RJ said so.

 

RJ said that Lan was better than Rand. Subsequently he said Rand (before losing his arm) was better than Galad. Sanderson said Lan > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn

 

Q.E.D

 

 

As for the blood knife, it is essentially equal to 1 Fade. If the 2 blood knives were going full out on Gawyn he would be dead. Certainly Gawyn is more than a match for 1 Fade.

 

Gawyn > Blood Knife = Fade

 

Gawyn is an elite blade master, one of the top 10 in the world without a doubt, if not top 5.

 

I agree with your rankings and I know BS said Gawyn was lucky, but the 2 blood knives were def going all out at the end.

 

ToM Ch. 37

"Blood sprayed across the ground, one shadowy form falling. The two others muttered curses, and all pretense of wearing him down vanished. They struck at him, weapons flashed amid dark mist"

[Entreri]

LanvsSleete 5/7 and GawynvsSleete 2/2 does not say very much about LanvsGawyn. It is like sports. The best team of the season usually loses some games. Perhaps a servant in the WT best Lan but not everyone else.

 

The important part is that Gawyn went 2/2 against Sleete and another Warder at the same time. That is a pretty big deal. If Sleete on his own could beat Lan, but couldn't beat Gawyn even with help, Gawyn seems stronger. The catch, as pointed out, is that Lan vs. Sleete was a long time ago, and it makes sense for Lan to have gotten stronger, to say nothing of more experienced. We know he became focused on becoming as strong as possible after Moiraine appeared to have died.

 

You are completely discounting the effect that age has on Sleet. Without almost any exceptions in the real world (i.e. Randy Couture of the UFC), age slows down a fighter a lot and one becomes weaker. WoT exception is Lan and Rhuarc.

 

Lan was the best in the world, and has only gotten better after the death of Moraine. Lan would destroy both Galad and Gawyn at once.

[Entreri]

The best blade master in the world with 100% certainty is Lan. Lan after losing Moraine went to another level, I put it beyond Jearom.

 

Why? Simply put RJ said so.

 

RJ said that Lan was better than Rand. Subsequently he said Rand (before losing his arm) was better than Galad. Sanderson said Lan > Galad > Gawyn.

 

 

Lan > Rand > Galad > Gawyn

 

Q.E.D

 

 

As for the blood knife, it is essentially equal to 1 Fade. If the 2 blood knives were going full out on Gawyn he would be dead. Certainly Gawyn is more than a match for 1 Fade.

 

Gawyn > Blood Knife = Fade

 

Gawyn is an elite blade master, one of the top 10 in the world without a doubt, if not top 5.

 

I agree with your rankings but the 2 blood knives were def going all out at the end.

 

ToM Ch. 37

"Blood sprayed across the ground, one shadowy form falling. The two others muttered curses, and all pretense of wearing him down vanished. They struck at him, weapons flashed amid dark mist"

 

Yes at the end and that is why Gawyn was getting his rear end handed to him after that. He would have definitely died if not for taking out that 'lamp'.

 

Lan would be soooo much better than Gawyn given the fact that Rand > Galad and that Galad > Gawyn. If Gawyn last more than a minute with Lan I would be shocked.