Blood Knives vs. Fades vs. Gawyn

[moratcorlm]

It's entirely possible that Galad was born as late as 972, and I probably should've noted that. But that quotation is uncited, as is typical for the Wiki, which is filled with completely unreliable fanwank.

[gary0044187]

I would like to see a Mat vs anyone. I think in a straight up duel with preferred weapons (no power, just physical weapons) Mat would whoop up on any of them, and he would be able to take 5-6 bloodknives, assuming he doesn't think one is a woman.

[moratcorlm]

It's a good thing he lost that eye then, since one of those Gawyn killed was.

[gary0044187]

It's a good thing he lost that eye then, since one of those Gawyn killed was.

and the one tuon kissed in the previous book was female as well (possibly the same one). seanchan military machine is extremely progressive.

[RedRaider]

I would guess Lan based on experience. But it's been shown that both Galad and Gawyn have very high skill. Rand, the last time we saw, was still not on par with Lan and was bested by another blade master (can't remember name) in the rebels' camp just before the bubble of evil struck. Or at least he was about to be bested by all appearances. I have to disagree with Jon Paul, however, about Galad being better than Gawyn. I think it is said earlier in the series that Galad is the better swordsman but isn't this from Gawyn's POV? And therefore colored by his idolatry of his half-brother. Not to mention the fact that Gawyn defeated one (maybe two?) blademaster during the White Tower coup who had the added benefit of being a warder. Then he killed three bloodknives still without having the benefit of the warder bond himself. I would have to say that I think Gawyn would lay some serious pwnage on Galad at this point.

 

Another thought, LTT was a blade master in the AoL if I'm not mistaken. Now that Rand has fully integrated his memories it could be possible that he is the blade master with the most badassery in the land.

Gawyn only beat the blood knives because he realized that turning out the lights evened the playibng field somewhat. He still would have died in the process had Egggy not awakened to heal him and even then the damage was so bad that the issue was in doubt. But, he did make the connection. I'll give him credit though, he stood his ground. I'm not a Gawyn fan. I find him to be a petulent child, much like Elayne and Eggy. Having said that, I think the warder bond would give him the edge over Galad. I do think Lan would still have the edge simply because of his experience. Being in his 30's or 40's wouldn't slow his ability due to the fact that he's in really good shape and has trained as a warrior for his entire life. Look at Lance Armstrong, for example. Remember the quote " The Warders are the Best of the Best, and Lan Mandragoran is the Best of them." I think that still hiolds true.

[Arc]

Rand rules... just sharing my opinion. i know it's not that objective and there're a lot of things to say that he isn't the best swordmaster, if he can be named swordmaster at all.

 

BUT:

- didn't he nearly lost his duel with Riatin just because of a distraction of some sort? (don't dave the book on me) and he was btw in the middle of an enemy camp.

 

- Didn't he slay like a lot of Fades during his run to Tyr with his firesword in TDR? He also killed a lot of them before he used Callandor to stop the attack inside the Stone (TSR)

 

- like already mentioned, he has got the full memories of a blademaster now, LTT remenber?

 

- I'm not sure, but i think because he's a channeler that adds something to his swiftness to. (none of the others is! and for a long time all male channelers were prosecuted, so we don't quite know if it gives a bonus)

 

- he is a warder.

 

- Ta'veren and the intimidation factor of being the Dragon reborn will help him to (doesn't got anything to do with skill though)

 

- He killed Turak in Falme while he was still quite new to the fighting thing.

 

- In Far Madding Rand more or less says he still practices the sword, although we don't see him doing it. "... he hadn't disdained." (and sorry, but no book = no details, (at work))

 

- ... there are a lot of little bits here and there, great quotes like: "...the sword came alive in his hands, it was part of him,..." (TSR - Imre Stand)

 

ok, he nearly got killed by Be'lal, so what? You don't know if Be'lal was more skilled than Lan, Galad of Gawyn, do you?

I admit i'm not sure if he could beat Lan, but surely he could beat Galad, and probably Gawyn.

[ROB_88]

going back to the topic about Blood Knives, i would really like to see a compariosn on a Blood Knife vs a Grey Man.

they seem pretty similar too me...except one dies.

 

is that what the ter'angreal does, make them into temporary Grey men?

[blazetheearth]

 

What I want to see in the next book is Galad and Gawyn spar, then mat walks up and bets them a gold crown each he can take both of them at the same time:mat:

 

-Cap

 

It should be a silver mark. He should bet his one silver mark to one from each of them. The bet should be identical to the bet they had in TDR, just like the call back that Mat had with Perrin in ToM. But after last time, I doubt either one would take him up on it.

[blazetheearth]

going back to the topic about Blood Knives, i would really like to see a compariosn on a Blood Knife vs a Grey Man.

they seem pretty similar too me...except one dies.

 

is that what the ter'angreal does, make them into temporary Grey men?

 

No, the description of how the camouflage for each one acts are quite different. When Perrin is attacked by Grey Men in Illian (or maybe Tear) in TDR, the GM walked through a well lit common room, not slinking off to the side in shadows.If the BK's tried that everyone in the common room would have seen a blurred form walking among them. The BK Rings seem to be a specific use ter'angreal similar to the a'dam in that nothing like it has been seen in Randland before. Quite possibly they were created by one of the AS that Luthair collared during the Consolidation, since it seems that for all of their lack of organization, those AS apparently retained more knowledge from the AoL than the WT did.

[csarmi]

1) Swordfighting results (and that of most of the sports for that matter) are not transitive.

If A beats B and B beats C, we still can't say much about A vs C. There are a lot of factors here. Fighting styles, for example. It is entirely plausible that due to the way Lan/Sleete/Gawyn fight, Sleete gets 2 victories out of seven vs Lan + Gawyn beats Sleete all the time + Lan beats Gawyn all the time.

 

2) The Gawyn vs Bloodknives fight is a bad joke the author has played on us. Makes no sense at all. No poisoned daggers/darts? Three invisible man can't touch Gawyn while all they had to do is threaten Egwene? ... WTF

[Ash Hopwill]

as for the sleete and other vs gayboy, sorry gawyn... its not always an advantage to be attacking with another.

 

unless you train with a dual fighting style in mind its more of a hinderance than help.

 

one on one is all about the skills, blade to blade.

 

i know, he was one on one with sleete pretty quick, but also remember sleete has a aes sedai that sees much, MUCH, less action than lan.

 

what keeps someone top of their game? doing it. really doing it. practice is fine, valuable even.

 

but actual combat is the best thing to stay sharp.

 

just a few points that i feel are important,

 

and to be clear: LAN, rand, galad, gawyn is the way it is in my head

[capeta]

 

What I want to see in the next book is Galad and Gawyn spar, then mat walks up and bets them a gold crown each he can take both of them at the same time:mat:

 

-Cap

 

It should be a silver mark. He should bet his one silver mark to one from each of them. The bet should be identical to the bet they had in TDR, just like the call back that Mat had with Perrin in ToM. But after last time, I doubt either one would take him up on it.

 

good point. I liked that badger scene. It should be the same bet. But this time they wont want to fight cause he is still hurting from losing that eye but he will goad them into it again just like the last time.

 

-Cap

[johthohar]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

 

I agree that for the 99.99% of the time author is always right, but there are moments when logic simply does not agree with the author (if we know all the facts that is). This being said, the Gawyn situation is not one of those time. I'm just saying that in a complex universe like WOT some answers even RJ could not give without making the whole world and the story into a joke.

 

Yeah, I definitely understand this. That's why I added that second paragraph. Because, to be honest, I thought that Gawyn had passed Galad by the end of ToM based on how things were written (I think Lan has consistently been written as the best swordsman in the series). That's why I can understand an argument along the lines of "Well Brandon says Galad is better but in the books Gawyn seems to do more with the sword." The arguments that I do not like to see are like the ones that I was responding to that say things like "Brandon doesn't know what he's talking about" or "Brandon is wrong". That is just completely unfair to Brandon. He was asked to rank the blademasters and gave us an actual to goodness straight answer without any RAFO or MAFO or I'm not sure. When that happens I just have to take his word as law because its his (RJ's) story and he has all the notes.

 

When did Brandon say this? I'm not trying to dispute the fact that he did, just establish a time frame. Two things come to mind. It could be that when he said this Galad was the better but Gawyn has since surpassed him. Or it could be that he was basing this on RJ's hierarchy of blade masters which was a loose ranking system if I'm not mistaken and has had plenty of time to change. It's possible that Jordan outlined the last few books for Gawyn to become Galad's better. That being said, even if Galad is the more skilled the warder bond does give Gawyn an edge.

[moratcorlm]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

[johthohar]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

I really like the way Brandon has written the last two books for the most part. But this to me is kind of a cop out. If Galad is better than Gawyn, then write it that way. Don't write Gawyn better and then say, "Oh, well he's just lucky." Lame. I've always thought Lan was the best though anyway.

[Declan]

I am not sure how people can think that Lan can be bested by anyone with a sword. He has never been challenged or come close to losing. In TGS, chapter "An Offer and a Departure", when Gawyn dueled Sleete and Marlesh at once and beat them twice Gawyn recalls that Sleete "was said to have bested even Lan Mandragoran twice out of seven bouts, BACK when Mandragoran had been known to spar with other Warders." This may seem like it is helping prove someone's point that Gawyn is the best but it isn't. That quote can be found on page 214. Gawyn only dueled them twice and yes beat them both times but would he be able to keep that up for a straight seven times. i dont think so.

 

Also whenever Lan goes into battle he NEVER seems to get seriously injured or wounded. He has been in a lot of battles for him to be just lucky and we all know he is not lucky, he is just crazy good. The way the second half of the quote was phrased it seemed that Lan became too good to want to duel with other men. But I do think Gawyn is better than Galad, and that's because Galad just barely beat Valda (who granted is well known for being a great swordmaster) while Gawyn pretty handily beat Sleete who is "near legendary in the White Tower for his prowess" (p.214).

 

Actually that's not true. He came pretty close to being beaten by Ryne Venamar in New Spring. In fact the only way he won was Ryne underestimated him once he was wounded.

If i am not mistaken New Spring is about 20 years before tEoTW. And Lan did not stop training in those twenty years. What I meant was that we have never seen him challenged in the main 13 books.

[Lacanos]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

I really like the way Brandon has written the last two books for the most part. But this to me is kind of a cop out. If Galad is better than Gawyn, then write it that way. Don't write Gawyn better and then say, "Oh, well he's just lucky." Lame. I've always thought Lan was the best though anyway.

We haven't really seen Galad fight, except against Valda...

[b3arz3rg3r]

In tradition with an old wotpage I used to visit. Lan is an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

As for the topic, the blood knives are assassins not blademasters. While they are highly proficient with blades it is not their skill with blades which they rely on. Seeing how the Myrdraal can sense channelling I would assume they would have no problem noticing the blood knives. Especially since they don't have regular vision anyways. However they manage to see, they apparently don't rely on light since they have no eyes.

[gary0044187]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

I really like the way Brandon has written the last two books for the most part. But this to me is kind of a cop out. If Galad is better than Gawyn, then write it that way. Don't write Gawyn better and then say, "Oh, well he's just lucky." Lame. I've always thought Lan was the best though anyway.

We haven't really seen Galad fight, except against Valda...

in one of the earlier books he saved the wondergirls in some podunk village from the prophet's people. They were fighting but he was at the lead of their group and was described as dancing through them or whatever. I am sure someone else can back this up, but Galad is a pretty sick fighter.

[NetSlider]

In tradition with an old wotpage I used to visit. Lan is an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

As for the topic, the blood knives are assassins not blademasters. While they are highly proficient with blades it is not their skill with blades which they rely on. Seeing how the Myrdraal can sense channelling I would assume they would have no problem noticing the blood knives. Especially since they don't have regular vision anyways. However they manage to see, they apparently don't rely on light since they have no eyes.

 

1. how do you know they are not good with swords?

2. what makes you think fades can sense blood knives?

 

All in all, Seanchen consider blood knives to be pretty much unstoppable. Granted it might be somewhat of a legend, considering the different weapons at Seanchan's disposal blood knives seem to be very, very formidable indeed. We don't know if blood knife can take a fade, but IMO the answer is yes. Speed is a lot in the fight and they def got that.

[Thall]

IMO Lan is the Man, followed by Rand, Galad, then Gawyn. Yes he did beat three Blood Knives but if it wasn't for Egwene waking and healing him he would be dead too.I also think that a Fade would slap a Blood Knife in a stand up fight.

[gary0044187]

In tradition with an old wotpage I used to visit. Lan is an unstoppable juggernaut.

 

As for the topic, the blood knives are assassins not blademasters. While they are highly proficient with blades it is not their skill with blades which they rely on. Seeing how the Myrdraal can sense channelling I would assume they would have no problem noticing the blood knives. Especially since they don't have regular vision anyways. However they manage to see, they apparently don't rely on light since they have no eyes.

 

1. how do you know they are not good with swords?

2. what makes you think fades can sense blood knives?

 

All in all, Seanchen consider blood knives to be pretty much unstoppable. Granted it might be somewhat of a legend, considering the different weapons at Seanchan's disposal blood knives seem to be very, very formidable indeed. We don't know if blood knife can take a fade, but IMO the answer is yes. Speed is a lot in the fight and they def got that.

in the fight against the blood knives, Gawyn did believe they were using real blademaster sword forms. they may not be blademasters per se but my guess is they are close. But vs fades, my guess is they would need to experience (or have it explained really well) the way fades die to get used to it, then they will be fine. I can see a few dieing from the surprise of a decapitated fade still fighting.

[moratcorlm]

The sword forms are common to all swordsmen, not just blademasters. It seems to be how they train.

[AuldGoldBeard]

sanderson does not know what he's talking about. If one were to read all the books from start to end without the knowledge of sanderson's remarks then one would say in a fight between the two brothers, the odds are on gawayn to come out victorious.

 

Gawyn is that lethal with the blade right now.

 

Yes, it definitely makes sense to just ignore what the author says. Its not like he's the one writing the scenes or the one that has all of RJ's notes about this kind of thing. If Brandon says that Lan>Galad>Gawyn then that is the way it is. Period. It really doesn't matter if you disagree because its not your story.

 

To go further though - Perhaps part of this is Brandon's fault for making Gawyn look so awesome in tGS and ToM without giving Galad equal awesomeness. So it is understandable that it might look like Gawyn is better now but that does not change the fact that he is not.

 

Yep. You have to be a massive dope or incredibly arrogant to think you know better than the author.

[heliage]

After TOM.

sleepinghour on Twitter 8 November 2010

Who is the best swordsman in WoT right now? Lan, Galad, or Gawyn?

Brandon

Lan. Then Galad. Then Gawyn. Gawyn is luckier than he thinks he is.

 

Maybe his luck is just him having access to Saidin without realising it?

 

That would make a funny scene at FOM when they meet together and Rand tells Egwene that Gawyn can channel.