Rand's Waaayy too Strong

[gary0044187]

little fat man is really missing?

[Entreri]

There's a theory that Rand's sword is an angreal. Just sayin.

 

 

No offence, but this is not a very good theory.

 

"LTT and Ishamael were equal in strength but not in skill. [...] Demandred was very close on both fronts to LTT."

 

From what I remember, Ishy was close behind LTT in strengh, not skill. I would even go further and say that it is logical to say that most people in AoL that channeled had somewhat equal skill (besides special talents that is).

 

The speculation on 1/2 mil of trollocs is not bad one, i think, but I would argue that there is a lot more than 1/2 mil. Rand has how many Aiel (at least 250K from what I remember if not a lot more than that). I'd say 1 to 2 Aiel vs. Trollocs is an easy win for Aiel, IMO. So, my guess, in order for light to be pressed hard, there has to be around 3-5 mil of Trollocs coming from the blight, if there to be a direct confrontation of armies.

 

There is a differential in skill, even in AoL...which would make logical sense since in the real world, even with 7+ billion people there are talent differentials even at the elite level.

 

We know that there is a female maximum for OP strength: Lanfear saying "no woman could be stronger". So there would be a male maximum. Obviously the Creator would choose the strongest to be his champion = LTT, same goes for the Dark One, Ishamael. With sooo many channelers in AoL, it is very likely that LTT = Ishamael in strength. With that many channelers people of equal strength will arise.

 

Some speculation on numbers:

 

 

Randland probably has around 10,000 channelers (WT 2000-3000, Aiel&Kin&Winfinders =1000-2000, Asha'man= 1000, damane=3000-5000, Shara=1000-3000), population of WoT, with mainland Seanchan & Shara at most 100-200 million. AoL probably had 1,000,000+ channelers with a population over 10+ billion. Greater proportion of channelers in AoL because the males were not culled and likely they caught almost everyone with the ability to channel.

 

Keep in mind for the real world, population projection is 9 billion by 2040. AoL tech I would think was about 100 years more advanced than we are now. With that kind of massive channeler population you are bound to find channelers that are equal in Power, even at the top tier.

 

 

Speculation on size of armies in Randland:

 

The forces of Light can probably field an army of 1-2 million. Aiel 100,000-150,000; Borderlanders 250,000-300,000 (the ones left behind), Andor (including Cairhein) 100,000, Tar Valon 100,000, Tear 75,000, rest of nations say 200,000-250,000, Seanchan 500,000-600,000, Shara 200,000-300,000? If the Sharans become involved.

 

Trollocs and everything else in the Blight will field at least 10 times that number, similar to the Trolloc War. 10+ million.

[samataim]

Lurker, decided to register and respond to this thread.

 

My take on Rand's 'additional power' is that we know each channeler has talents, some of them are in creating objects of power, some are healing, some are compulsion.

 

There's examples of this all over the place.

 

The pageboy (can't remember his real name) he is so weak in the power, yet can make gateways of a very large size.

 

Egwene is able to create cuendillar crazy fast.

 

Aviendha has a talent for identifying the use of ter'angreal.

 

Nynaeve's healing talent.

 

There's lots more references to channelers who have extraordinary talent with very specific things.

 

Then there's people who don't have access to the OP having exceptional skills.

 

Min's viewings, Mat's luck.

 

Why wouldn't the champion of the light have a talent that makes it very easy for him to sense darkness, fight shadowspawn, and restore light? Why couldn't it be possible that Rand is able to do very bad things to shadowspawn with extreme ease that other channelers would not be capable of doing themselves? or if they are capable, it would sap more of their energy to do so.

 

This isn't even considering that he has full knowledge of the AoL and hundreds of years worth of wisdom, not only in the power, but of fighting the shadow. No one else has that level of knowledge, save Mat with his knowledge of battles.

 

Oh yeah, not to mention, he is a warder, so he's got that bonus strength as well...

[ranjitb]

Just to be clear, Alivia is NOT stronger than Lanfear, angreal aided or otherwise. She is stronger than Cyndane who is significantly weaker than Lanfear was - whether this drop is due to being migrated to a new body or being fed-off of by the *Finns we don't know.

(We know that Cyndane is weaker than Lfear because either Grandael or Semirhage I forget which is surprised that they are now stronger than Cyndane).

 

Which leads down the other rabbit hole - just because Rand is LTT reborn doesn't mean he is the *same* strength as LTT. For all we know he could be stronger.

[Rcurran]

AoL was blinded by pride and chock full of hubris, as has been said many times before.

 

Think of the Randlings with their always-on connection to the power; these fools know nothing. Especially AoL fools, who know more and yet refuse to learn more.

 

If you put me in the wild I might do ok, find some food, build a fire. But just because I know how to write doesn't mean I'd be smarter than a caveman in a world with no need for reading.

 

Rubbish similies etc sorry for rambling.

[capuga]

Just to be clear, Alivia is NOT stronger than Lanfear, angreal aided or otherwise. She is stronger than Cyndane who is significantly weaker than Lanfear was - whether this drop is due to being migrated to a new body or being fed-off of by the *Finns we don't know.

(We know that Cyndane is weaker than Lfear because either Grandael or Semirhage I forget which is surprised that they are now stronger than Cyndane).

 

Which leads down the other rabbit hole - just because Rand is LTT reborn doesn't mean he is the *same* strength as LTT. For all we know he could be stronger.

 

And yet in Lanfear/Cyndane's own POV in WH she thinks to herself that Alivia was stronger than her before the Finns held her. She was only stronger because she had an angreal, but I doubt that Lanfear herself was mistaken when saying that Alivia was stronger.

 

And significantly weaker is speculative. We know that she was weaker but we also know from Graendal's POV that Cyndane is still stronger than Graendal, which was rare even in the AoL. So Cyndane is still very strong.

[capuga]

little fat man is really missing?

 

Yes, lost since Dumai's Wells.

[babuada]

AoL was blinded by pride and chock full of hubris, as has been said many times before.

 

Think of the Randlings with their always-on connection to the power; these fools know nothing. Especially AoL fools, who know more and yet refuse to learn more.

 

If you put me in the wild I might do ok, find some food, build a fire. But just because I know how to write doesn't mean I'd be smarter than a caveman in a world with no need for reading.

 

Rubbish similies etc sorry for rambling.

 

Whom of the AoL are we talking about. Only persons I know of in The time of caveman are Forsakens. They are not representative of AoL character in general. They are representative of AoL character at worst, the bottomline. They showed many times that they are not smart, otherwise they would not have gone to shadow.

[NetSlider]

Lurker, decided to register and respond to this thread.

 

My take on Rand's 'additional power' is that we know each channeler has talents, some of them are in creating objects of power, some are healing, some are compulsion.

 

There's examples of this all over the place.

 

The pageboy (can't remember his real name) he is so weak in the power, yet can make gateways of a very large size.

 

Egwene is able to create cuendillar crazy fast.

 

Aviendha has a talent for identifying the use of ter'angreal.

 

Nynaeve's healing talent.

 

There's lots more references to channelers who have extraordinary talent with very specific things.

 

Then there's people who don't have access to the OP having exceptional skills.

 

Min's viewings, Mat's luck.

 

Why wouldn't the champion of the light have a talent that makes it very easy for him to sense darkness, fight shadowspawn, and restore light? Why couldn't it be possible that Rand is able to do very bad things to shadowspawn with extreme ease that other channelers would not be capable of doing themselves? or if they are capable, it would sap more of their energy to do so.

 

This isn't even considering that he has full knowledge of the AoL and hundreds of years worth of wisdom, not only in the power, but of fighting the shadow. No one else has that level of knowledge, save Mat with his knowledge of battles.

 

Oh yeah, not to mention, he is a warder, so he's got that bonus strength as well...

 

Good point. It is also somewhat evident in the Stone in tSR when he uses Callandor to kill trollocs.

[johthohar]

Tell me one more incidence from Rand's POV after Eye where he fills like filled with Light and some voice speaks to him. Whatever he was channeling from the eye was no ordinary OP. That is why Moraine called it "essence of Saidin", not just untainted Saidin. "Essence" lilerally means some concentrated form.

 

You're way off. First of all, Moiraine channels Saidar. She cannot detect Saidin. She knows what is in the Eye only from what she has heard and/or studied. Secondly, I don't think you really know what essence means. It can mean something in concentrated form but usually refers to... Well, for example, if you sniff a rose you will be able to smell it's scent. But if you take away everything else that makes the rose and leave only the elements that produce the scent then you will be able to smell it much more strongly because it is the essence of the fragrance. Also, the male half of the Source is pure Saidin. You can't concentrate it further because there is nothing else there to dilute it. It's already concentrated. What Moiraine means here is that it Saidin in its truest form. That would be Saidin without the taint.

 

Seizing Saidin is often described by many channelers and being filled with light/power/raging storm/etc. We don't know what the voice was. It could have been madness having started to take hold. Unlikely, but we still have no evidence that it was the Creator. This is a very weak argument for some Light Power/Divine Power/Other Power... The only evidence we have of Rand using anything other than the True Source is the strange light web around his mind. And this could simply be a the effect produced by a weave he invented to shield him self from the madness that Nynaeve is seeing. Show me one instance where Rand clearly channels something other than Saidin. There isn't one. Therefore, there is no evidence and the "Light Power" is pure conjecture like I said.

[NetSlider]

There are only three "forms" of power: Saidin, Saidar, and TP. One may argue that OP and TP are separate all together, so there is no evidence to even suggest that there is some "super power".

 

On the other topic, the voice at the end of EotW was all in caps (like DO when speaking), therefore the assumption that it was the creator. Considering that that was the only other time when Rand used that kind of amount of power unaided is also points to the fact that being creator's champion has something to do with it. IDK, to be honest, what to think at this point, but the fact that Rand is very, very strong still remains unexplained.

[bdholsin]

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

I kinda thought that his lack of concern stemmed from him knowing the pattern would bend to his will rather than his mega-channeling powers. Just my take.

 

In my mind I always thought his lack of concern for a stilling circle was because he knew he had access to the TP.

[Lacanos]

Remember when we could hear LTT's memories sifted out from Rand's? He was terrified of more than 4 or 5 Aes Sedai shielding him. New Rand doesn't care about a full circle of 13, and after A Storm of Light and his jaunt through the White Tower, I think it's safe to assume that he could break a shield of 13. His ability surpasses anything that LTT could have ever done.

 

I kinda thought that his lack of concern stemmed from him knowing the pattern would bend to his will rather than his mega-channeling powers. Just my take.

 

In my mind I always thought his lack of concern for a stilling circle was because he knew he had access to the TP.

RJ made it clear that you cannot channel the TP when shielded from the OP.

So no, it was likely his taveren-ness.

[johthohar]

Say what you want about ta'veren. The fact of the matter is that, from all evidence so far, the ta'veren effect cannot be consciously controled. I don't think Rand would be foolish enough to walk into the White Tower when there was no guarantee he would walk back out. I still think he could have broken both shields and walked out if he had wanted to.

[Elan Tedronai]

i don't know what's so hard about this whole issue.

 

rand is the most powerful male channeler. He's got the memories of the first amongst servants in the last age. He's got new ways to kill and maim.

 

Simples no?

[jemron]

i don't know what's so hard about this whole issue.

 

rand is the most powerful male channeler. He's got the memories of the first amongst servants in the last age. He's got new ways to kill and maim.

 

Simples no?

 

Not to mention the fact that he has the Pattern on his side as ta'veren. I'm sure this also helps immensely.

[NetSlider]

Say what you want about ta'veren. The fact of the matter is that, from all evidence so far, the ta'veren effect cannot be consciously controled. I don't think Rand would be foolish enough to walk into the White Tower when there was no guarantee he would walk back out. I still think he could have broken both shields and walked out if he had wanted to.

 

actually, Mat seems to be very close in controlling it. Also the way Rand got Little Wolf to follow him seemed nothing short conscious control of taveren ability.

[NetSlider]

i don't know what's so hard about this whole issue.

 

rand is the most powerful male channeler. He's got the memories of the first amongst servants in the last age. He's got new ways to kill and maim.

 

Simples no?

 

It's never simple with these books. And if for some reason it seems to be simple, we'll make sure it becomes....unsimple...?

[johthohar]

Say what you want about ta'veren. The fact of the matter is that, from all evidence so far, the ta'veren effect cannot be consciously controled. I don't think Rand would be foolish enough to walk into the White Tower when there was no guarantee he would walk back out. I still think he could have broken both shields and walked out if he had wanted to.

 

actually, Mat seems to be very close in controlling it. Also the way Rand got Little Wolf to follow him seemed nothing short conscious control of taveren ability.

 

Mat understands his luck. That doesn't mean he controls it. And what is this about Little Wolf? Is that Perrin?

[BloodOfKingu]

i think everyone is overlooking one simple fact: rand is as powerful as the pattern needs him to be.

 

he is so powerful now because the task the pattern has set before him requires him to be so. only now is he ready to face the DO. he didn't need this level of power before, so he didn't have it.

 

rand isn't a hero of the horn, or some ta'veren the pattern has spun out to fix a wobble in its' pattern. rands soul is spun out to fight the dark one. the one single soul the light has prepared for this fight, and spins out time and time again.

 

being ta'veren, being a blademaster, hell, even being a channeller, is all incidental compared to being that single soul the pattern relies upon to fight the DO.

[FarShainMael]

Seizing Saidin is often described by many channelers and being filled with light/power/raging storm/etc. We don't know what the voice was. It could have been madness having started to take hold. Unlikely, but we still have no evidence that it was the Creator. This is a very weak argument for some Light Power/Divine Power/Other Power... The only evidence we have of Rand using anything other than the True Source is the strange light web around his mind. And this could simply be a the effect produced by a weave he invented to shield him self from the madness that Nynaeve is seeing. Show me one instance where Rand clearly channels something other than Saidin. There isn't one. Therefore, there is no evidence and the "Light Power" is pure conjecture like I said.

 

TGS22.

[NetSlider]

Say what you want about ta'veren. The fact of the matter is that, from all evidence so far, the ta'veren effect cannot be consciously controled. I don't think Rand would be foolish enough to walk into the White Tower when there was no guarantee he would walk back out. I still think he could have broken both shields and walked out if he had wanted to.

 

actually, Mat seems to be very close in controlling it. Also the way Rand got Little Wolf to follow him seemed nothing short conscious control of taveren ability.

 

Mat understands his luck. That doesn't mean he controls it. And what is this about Little Wolf? Is that Perrin?

 

Mat can choose to loose or win, i think this shows a very good control. One may argue if his luck is because of his taveren nature (which I think it is) but I don't think there is any question if he can control it very well at this point.

[johthohar]

Seizing Saidin is often described by many channelers and being filled with light/power/raging storm/etc. We don't know what the voice was. It could have been madness having started to take hold. Unlikely, but we still have no evidence that it was the Creator. This is a very weak argument for some Light Power/Divine Power/Other Power... The only evidence we have of Rand using anything other than the True Source is the strange light web around his mind. And this could simply be a the effect produced by a weave he invented to shield him self from the madness that Nynaeve is seeing. Show me one instance where Rand clearly channels something other than Saidin. There isn't one. Therefore, there is no evidence and the "Light Power" is pure conjecture like I said.

 

TGS22.

 

Aggravating....

 

When someone references a chapter number from a specific book and I'm supposed to automatically know what the hell they are talking about.

[NetSlider]

i think everyone is overlooking one simple fact: rand is as powerful as the pattern needs him to be.

 

he is so powerful now because the task the pattern has set before him requires him to be so. only now is he ready to face the DO. he didn't need this level of power before, so he didn't have it.

 

rand isn't a hero of the horn, or some ta'veren the pattern has spun out to fix a wobble in its' pattern. rands soul is spun out to fight the dark one. the one single soul the light has prepared for this fight, and spins out time and time again.

 

being ta'veren, being a blademaster, hell, even being a channeller, is all incidental compared to being that single soul the pattern relies upon to fight the DO.

 

This is probably the best explanation i've seen so far on the matter. Not very gratifying, but very logical none the less.

[NetSlider]

Seizing Saidin is often described by many channelers and being filled with light/power/raging storm/etc. We don't know what the voice was. It could have been madness having started to take hold. Unlikely, but we still have no evidence that it was the Creator. This is a very weak argument for some Light Power/Divine Power/Other Power... The only evidence we have of Rand using anything other than the True Source is the strange light web around his mind. And this could simply be a the effect produced by a weave he invented to shield him self from the madness that Nynaeve is seeing. Show me one instance where Rand clearly channels something other than Saidin. There isn't one. Therefore, there is no evidence and the "Light Power" is pure conjecture like I said.

 

TGS22.

 

Aggravating....

 

When someone references a chapter number from a specific book and I'm supposed to automatically know what the hell they are talking about.

 

 

She's just showing off . Right, FarShainMael?