The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[blazetheearth]

It wouldn't be odd if it hadn't been mentioned. I mean, they've probably planned A LOT for future encounters with the Seanchan. And if not planned, at least discussed. It's such a minor thing that I don't care either way, if it's mentioned being distributed or not. I do, however, recall Egwene telling Adelorna that most of the time, it isn't worth it. Am I correct? That it's easier to shield or kill? It might be that most Aes Sedai aren't deft enough in their weavings to do it. Some might be. But I bet a lot of Aes Sedai know it by now.

 

If the author would show every piece of planning and distributing of information that takes place, the series would truly be neverending. I see no reason why it would be mentioned; there are way more important things to fit in the books.

 

And there are others things that have been passed around that isn't really mentioned until ... well, until it's shown.

 

We aren't asking for every piece of planning or info sent. But it does seem like if space was needed for a one line reference to various plans then it could be found by clipping other scenes of a line here or a line there. Like possibly some of the descriptions of buildings and cities that we have read 7 or 8 times already through out the series maybe.

[wvlr2]

I would think that she already offered them the TAR things. You can only give away so much - before the other party actually accepts the agreement.

 

But once the agreement is finalized, she certinally should get that information out there.

 

Of course, since Ny has spent quite a lot of time with Rand (And his AS, Wise Ones & Windfinders) there is the significant possability that she has already passed that on.

 

Then again, since no one actually talks about the important stuff in the WoT world - Maybe not.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

 

 

Never use the One Power as a weapon, except

Against Shadowspawn (Darkfriends also qualify),

To save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister

 

The A'dam isn't threatening the Aes Sedai's life, while possible of causing extreme pain, it cannot cause death (That we've seen throughout the series?) and even if they could, the Seanchan don't waste their Damane like that (And the Aes Sedai know that.).. They'd likely be safer (Their lives) as Damane than they currently are.

 

The Damane/Sul'dam can easily find out who is an Aes Sedai by the people not using lethal weaves (Only the Novices/Accepted/other channelers can.) and since the Novices/Accepted/other channelers aren't "sisters" the Aes Sedai can't use lethal weaves even if the Seanchan use deadly flows on the Novices/Accepted/Wise Ones/Wind Finders

 

As for releasing the a'dam's, the Seanchan can easily deflect a simple weave of air.. For the shielding, the Seanchan have way too many Damane/Sul'dam (And the Aes Sedai would have to also wrap thousands upon thousands of soldiers in air) to maintain those kinds of weaves.. Shielding takes a lot of effort, they'd tire themselves out by themselves. If they go into circles, the Aes Sedai are likely at a disadvantage since the Seanchan have traveling (Pop up behind the sister leading the flows, and start collaring..Or at least they'd go in at night, catch them off guard, anyways (The Sisters won't be able to form circles.. or even fight back the little they can if they're asleep).. The Seanchan know not to start an invasion with all the sisters at their fullest.

[Suttree]

How does that have anything to do with whether food would be spoiling or not?

 

Also could someone provide a source for the Seanchan territories not having a problem with food spoiling? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason. If it's correct I would like to check it out. Thanks!

 

The point (and the key) is one word: ORDER. (Order and belief gives strength)

 

Actually it's "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build" it has to do with with the seals on the DO's prison and how to fix it. Please provide a source for food not spoiling in Seanchan occupied territories.

[randsc]

How does that have anything to do with whether food would be spoiling or not?

 

Also could someone provide a source for the Seanchan territories not having a problem with food spoiling? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason. If it's correct I would like to check it out. Thanks!

 

The point (and the key) is one word: ORDER. (Order and belief gives strength)

 

Actually it's "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build" it has to do with with the seals on the DO's prison and how to fix it. Please provide a source for food not spoiling in Seanchan occupied territories.

 

I think it can be implied by the fact that food spoiling isn't mentioned, when it is mentioned in every other land.

[Taura-Tierno]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

 

 

Never use the One Power as a weapon, except

Against Shadowspawn (Darkfriends also qualify),

To save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister

 

The A'dam isn't threatening the Aes Sedai's life, while possible of causing extreme pain, it cannot cause death (That we've seen throughout the series?) and even if they could, the Seanchan don't waste their Damane like that (And the Aes Sedai know that.).. They'd likely be safer (Their lives) as Damane than they currently are.

 

The Damane/Sul'dam can easily find out who is an Aes Sedai by the people not using lethal weaves (Only the Novices/Accepted/other channelers can.) and since the Novices/Accepted/other channelers aren't "sisters" the Aes Sedai can't use lethal weaves even if the Seanchan use deadly flows on the Novices/Accepted/Wise Ones/Wind Finders

 

As for releasing the a'dam's, the Seanchan can easily deflect a simple weave of air.. For the shielding, the Seanchan have way too many Damane/Sul'dam (And the Aes Sedai would have to also wrap thousands upon thousands of soldiers in air) to maintain those kinds of weaves.. Shielding takes a lot of effort, they'd tire themselves out by themselves. If they go into circles, the Aes Sedai are likely at a disadvantage since the Seanchan have traveling (Pop up behind the sister leading the flows, and start collaring..Or at least they'd go in at night, catch them off guard, anyways (The Sisters won't be able to form circles.. or even fight back the little they can if they're asleep).. The Seanchan know not to start an invasion with all the sisters at their fullest.

 

How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan.

 

If someone attacked me on a street and told me "I will kidnap you and enslave you and torture you a lot, but I won't kill you", I'd still feel threated for my life, and if I struggled and hurt the person during the struggle, I doubt a court would convict me of physical assault, because it would have been self-defense. My the same reasoning, and Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai can create circles, which would make them unshieldable. The Seanchan can't Travel like you describe; creating a gateway takes some time. Look at how Egwene handled it; with a few more Aes Sedai boosted up with angreal and sa'angreal, as well as the rest linked in circles, they'd put up one hell of a fight. Shielding wouldn't be an option, so the Seanchan would have to resort to lethal weaves.

[Fel]

I think most people here are agreeing that, if the Aes Sedai prepare, they should be able to easily rebuff an attack by the Seanchan. The advantages of circles and angreal should make the channelling aspect of the engagement favor the Aes Sedai and the home-field advantage should help for a whole lot more.

 

That is ... *IF* they prepared. if they are as silly as they generally seem to be and don't prepare, then they will be annihilated (again).

 

Does it bother anyone else how quickly damane are harnessed and broken now? In the great hunt it took *months* to train Egwene and start to make her truly become a damane in her mind. Now, Elaida gives them travelling (which they don't *know* she has, they just suspect and she is the *only* one that knows it of the captured AS) in a week or two. Elaida was terrible in many ways, but she also was Aes Sedai arrogance to her core and would not resort to begging and offering everything she could that quickly. I would think she would have had at least a few months of plans to escape in her before she gave away her biggest bargaining chip.

 

I know...fictional world and need to suspend disbelief...but it is annoying how the a'dam has turned into a superweapon that instantly converts people to do whatever you want and is the unique mixture of both sul'dam and damane chanelling depending upon what the author wants (i.e. in the early series a damane like egwene could refuse to channel something, but by the time Tuon gets the a'dam on the AS in Luca's wagons, she is able to channel things directly and does not need to coax the AS to do it for her).

[wvlr2]

How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan.

 

If someone attacked me on a street and told me "I will kidnap you and enslave you and torture you a lot, but I won't kill you", I'd still feel threated for my life, and if I struggled and hurt the person during the struggle, I doubt a court would convict me of physical assault, because it would have been self-defense. My the same reasoning, and Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai can create circles, which would make them unshieldable. The Seanchan can't Travel like you describe; creating a gateway takes some time. Look at how Egwene handled it; with a few more Aes Sedai boosted up with angreal and sa'angreal, as well as the rest linked in circles, they'd put up one hell of a fight. Shielding wouldn't be an option, so the Seanchan would have to resort to lethal weaves.

 

In addition, most Seanchan channelers can only make small gateways due to power levels. It takes longer to get massive troops through a small gateway. If someone gets too close to the edge they could get an arm or leg chopped off or get killed.

 

Traveling large amounts of troops and channelers into narrow halls and corridors creates the chance of one gateway opening right next to another gateway where the ones coming out of the first walk/run right into the edge of another. Messy!!!

 

That is why all the good guys have set up traveling grounds and rules to their use. The Seanchan and Eliada who is teaching them have not had much time to learn all these little details. It could cost them severely. HOPE HOPE!!!!

 

With Luck For-Tuona will be the first through to learn the hard way!

[jmikea]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

 

 

 

 

Never use the One Power as a weapon, except

Against Shadowspawn (Darkfriends also qualify),

To save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister

 

The A'dam isn't threatening the Aes Sedai's life, while possible of causing extreme pain, it cannot cause death (That we've seen throughout the series?) and even if they could, the Seanchan don't waste their Damane like that (And the Aes Sedai know that.).. They'd likely be safer (Their lives) as Damane than they currently are.

 

The Damane/Sul'dam can easily find out who is an Aes Sedai by the people not using lethal weaves (Only the Novices/Accepted/other channelers can.) and since the Novices/Accepted/other channelers aren't "sisters" the Aes Sedai can't use lethal weaves even if the Seanchan use deadly flows on the Novices/Accepted/Wise Ones/Wind Finders

 

As for releasing the a'dam's, the Seanchan can easily deflect a simple weave of air.. For the shielding, the Seanchan have way too many Damane/Sul'dam (And the Aes Sedai would have to also wrap thousands upon thousands of soldiers in air) to maintain those kinds of weaves.. Shielding takes a lot of effort, they'd tire themselves out by themselves. If they go into circles, the Aes Sedai are likely at a disadvantage since the Seanchan have traveling (Pop up behind the sister leading the flows, and start collaring..Or at least they'd go in at night, catch them off guard, anyways (The Sisters won't be able to form circles.. or even fight back the little they can if they're asleep).. The Seanchan know not to start an invasion with all the sisters at their fullest.

 

How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan.

 

If someone attacked me on a street and told me "I will kidnap you and enslave you and torture you a lot, but I won't kill you", I'd still feel threated for my life, and if I struggled and hurt the person during the struggle, I doubt a court would convict me of physical assault, because it would have been self-defense. My the same reasoning, and Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai can create circles, which would make them unshieldable. The Seanchan can't Travel like you describe; creating a gateway takes some time. Look at how Egwene handled it; with a few more Aes Sedai boosted up with angreal and sa'angreal, as well as the rest linked in circles, they'd put up one hell of a fight. Shielding wouldn't be an option, so the Seanchan would have to resort to lethal weaves.

 

Agreed. It's a guarantee that Warders will die either during the attack or after a Seanchan victory. Some sisters will resist too well and the Seanchan will have to kill them rather than collar them. The ones who are captured will lose their names and effectively cease to be themselves anymore, which to some will be equivalent to their deaths; if Egwene al'Vere no longer exists, then her life is over. There are not many mental gymnastics to do on this, especially for people who are already very good at word games and have a vested interest in believing their lives are in danger. Without resorting to any trickery, they could just mix the AS in with the troops, putting them in close enough proximity to fire, lightning, and nasty pointy things for them to feel they are in danger.

 

There are all sorts of reasons why the oaths will not be a problem.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

 

 

Never use the One Power as a weapon, except

Against Shadowspawn (Darkfriends also qualify),

To save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister

 

The A'dam isn't threatening the Aes Sedai's life, while possible of causing extreme pain, it cannot cause death (That we've seen throughout the series?) and even if they could, the Seanchan don't waste their Damane like that (And the Aes Sedai know that.).. They'd likely be safer (Their lives) as Damane than they currently are.

 

The Damane/Sul'dam can easily find out who is an Aes Sedai by the people not using lethal weaves (Only the Novices/Accepted/other channelers can.) and since the Novices/Accepted/other channelers aren't "sisters" the Aes Sedai can't use lethal weaves even if the Seanchan use deadly flows on the Novices/Accepted/Wise Ones/Wind Finders

 

As for releasing the a'dam's, the Seanchan can easily deflect a simple weave of air.. For the shielding, the Seanchan have way too many Damane/Sul'dam (And the Aes Sedai would have to also wrap thousands upon thousands of soldiers in air) to maintain those kinds of weaves.. Shielding takes a lot of effort, they'd tire themselves out by themselves. If they go into circles, the Aes Sedai are likely at a disadvantage since the Seanchan have traveling (Pop up behind the sister leading the flows, and start collaring..Or at least they'd go in at night, catch them off guard, anyways (The Sisters won't be able to form circles.. or even fight back the little they can if they're asleep).. The Seanchan know not to start an invasion with all the sisters at their fullest.

 

How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan.

 

If someone attacked me on a street and told me "I will kidnap you and enslave you and torture you a lot, but I won't kill you", I'd still feel threated for my life, and if I struggled and hurt the person during the struggle, I doubt a court would convict me of physical assault, because it would have been self-defense. My the same reasoning, and Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai can create circles, which would make them unshieldable. The Seanchan can't Travel like you describe; creating a gateway takes some time. Look at how Egwene handled it; with a few more Aes Sedai boosted up with angreal and sa'angreal, as well as the rest linked in circles, they'd put up one hell of a fight. Shielding wouldn't be an option, so the Seanchan would have to resort to lethal weaves.

 

 

 

"How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan. "

 

 

Does being doused with forkroot cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

does being shielded cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

does being wrapped in air cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life?

does being being collared with an a'dam cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

 

The Aes Sedai can only start using lethal weaves if their Warder's life is in danger, and since the Seanchan are wrapping the Warders in air (Non-lethal), the Aes Sedai who do have warders still can't use lethal weaves.

 

Being collared doesn't cause threat to the Aes Sedai's life, what happens afterwards does.. Still can't use the Power as a weapon.

Otherwise, they would be able to just start killing Seanchan in Ebou Dar because of the threat that they might be assulted.

 

If you're being kidnapped and you punch the kidnapper and (s)he gets knocked unconscious, then continue to hurt the kidnapper, that's excessive force (Against the law, and you would be punished for it.)

 

 

 

Egwene and the novices aren't bound by the three oaths, allowing them to use deadly force.. The Aes Sedai can't use deadly force because their lives aren't being threatened.. The novices are no longer being lead by an "Aes Sedai" who is Seanchan/White Tower/Wise One trained..

 

 

The Seanchan have man Damane who were/are Aes Sedai, which means the Seanchan can create gateways to multiple locations..

Also, how do you expect the Aes Sedai to link if the Seanchan invade in the middle of the night, from multiple locations, start collaring every Aes Sedai.. Creating wards against eavesdropping to stop any noise? The Aes Sedai won't be able to react because they don't know what's happening..

Even if they can link, the Seanchan are coming from too many places for the novice/accepted leading the flows to stop them all.

[capuga]

Abusing the three oaths, the Seanchan can pop into the middle of the Tower, wrapping all the guards in air (To avoid accidentally putting a Warders life in danger), start collaring/shielding the Aes Sedai/Accepted/Novices. Since neither is fatal, the Aes Sedai can't fight back with any amount of force.. Sure the Novices/Accepted could, but they would be no match for the Damane/Sul'dam (Novices/Accepted aren't considered to be sisters, so "Their life, or that of another sisters" won't allow the Aes Sedai to start).

 

I don't think that's true. What would stop the Aes Sedai from shielding all the Seanchan / releasing the a'dams? Does that count as using the power as a weapon? I don't think so.

 

Also, after the last Seanchan raid, I believe that any of the Aes Sedai would feel in more than danger if ANY Seanchan channelers showed up.

 

 

Never use the One Power as a weapon, except

Against Shadowspawn (Darkfriends also qualify),

To save her own life, or her Warder's, or the life of another sister

 

The A'dam isn't threatening the Aes Sedai's life, while possible of causing extreme pain, it cannot cause death (That we've seen throughout the series?) and even if they could, the Seanchan don't waste their Damane like that (And the Aes Sedai know that.).. They'd likely be safer (Their lives) as Damane than they currently are.

 

The Damane/Sul'dam can easily find out who is an Aes Sedai by the people not using lethal weaves (Only the Novices/Accepted/other channelers can.) and since the Novices/Accepted/other channelers aren't "sisters" the Aes Sedai can't use lethal weaves even if the Seanchan use deadly flows on the Novices/Accepted/Wise Ones/Wind Finders

 

As for releasing the a'dam's, the Seanchan can easily deflect a simple weave of air.. For the shielding, the Seanchan have way too many Damane/Sul'dam (And the Aes Sedai would have to also wrap thousands upon thousands of soldiers in air) to maintain those kinds of weaves.. Shielding takes a lot of effort, they'd tire themselves out by themselves. If they go into circles, the Aes Sedai are likely at a disadvantage since the Seanchan have traveling (Pop up behind the sister leading the flows, and start collaring..Or at least they'd go in at night, catch them off guard, anyways (The Sisters won't be able to form circles.. or even fight back the little they can if they're asleep).. The Seanchan know not to start an invasion with all the sisters at their fullest.

 

How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan.

 

If someone attacked me on a street and told me "I will kidnap you and enslave you and torture you a lot, but I won't kill you", I'd still feel threated for my life, and if I struggled and hurt the person during the struggle, I doubt a court would convict me of physical assault, because it would have been self-defense. My the same reasoning, and Aes Sedai should be able to use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai can create circles, which would make them unshieldable. The Seanchan can't Travel like you describe; creating a gateway takes some time. Look at how Egwene handled it; with a few more Aes Sedai boosted up with angreal and sa'angreal, as well as the rest linked in circles, they'd put up one hell of a fight. Shielding wouldn't be an option, so the Seanchan would have to resort to lethal weaves.

 

 

 

"How, exactly, do they know that the Seanchan won't kill them? They don't know what happens to Sisters who've been damane, when they can't be used as weapons. How will they know that NOT A SINGLE AES SEDAI will be killed? How can they know that no warders will be killed? How can they know that no one will die accidentally? It's combat; people die. The Aes Sedai can use the OP in battle if they are on the battle field; that's been showed as sufficiently "dangerous". Being assaulted by the Seanchan would definitel qualify. I don't think any Aes Sedai would consider themselves safer among the Seanchan. "

 

 

Does being doused with forkroot cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

does being shielded cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

does being wrapped in air cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life?

does being being collared with an a'dam cause immediate threat to an Aes Sedai's life? No, it doesn't.

 

The Aes Sedai can only start using lethal weaves if their Warder's life is in danger, and since the Seanchan are wrapping the Warders in air (Non-lethal), the Aes Sedai who do have warders still can't use lethal weaves.

 

Being collared doesn't cause threat to the Aes Sedai's life, what happens afterwards does.. Still can't use the Power as a weapon.

Otherwise, they would be able to just start killing Seanchan in Ebou Dar because of the threat that they might be assulted.

 

We have seen several times throughout the series that Aes Sedai can use the Power as a weapon when they feel threatened. Some of the Aes Sedai at Dumai's Wells intentionally wade into the battle so that they are in danger and can use the Power. Joline and Teslyn help Mat when fighting the Seanchan once the enemies got close enough that they felt threatened. And those troops weren't even specifically after them or using the Power towards them like the damane would be.

 

Remember, the Oaths work based on perception. An Aes Sedai can lie if they believe what they are saying. An Aes Sedai can use the Power as a weapon if they feel their life (or the lives of other Aes Sedai) are in danger. It doesn't matter that the Seanchan want to capture them and their lives are actually not in danger. If the White Tower is assaulted they will think their lives are in danger and they will be able to respond.

 

Plus the thought that their lives are not actually in danger because the Seanchan look to capture and not kill is not really correct - remember, in the first assault the Seanchan orders were to capture or kill as many marat'damane as possible. And several Aes Sedai did die during the assault. So I find it hard to believe that they won't feel threatened enough if other assault occurs to be able to use the power.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Exactly. Last time they were sent to capture and kill and do as much damage as they could..

 

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

 

That means they'd have to honestly with all their heart think they're going to die..

If the Aes Sedai thinks that being collared is death, then they could.. But they should know otherwise, especially after Egwene (hopefully) explained how the Seanchan work.

 

The tower wouldn't be crumbling, nor would there be Damane/Sul'dam weaving deadly weaves.. I'm pretty sure they'd feel quite a bit less threatened.. The Aes Sedai (At least the novices, but I'm sure the Aes Sedai as well.) thought that the Raken were Shadowspawn, now that they know better, they can't strike first.. Though, with traveling, I doubt that'd use Raken anymore.

 

 

Edit: forgot to add something.

[Suttree]

How does that have anything to do with whether food would be spoiling or not?

 

Also could someone provide a source for the Seanchan territories not having a problem with food spoiling? Doesn't seem right to me for some reason. If it's correct I would like to check it out. Thanks!

 

The point (and the key) is one word: ORDER. (Order and belief gives strength)

 

Actually it's "Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build" it has to do with with the seals on the DO's prison and how to fix it. Please provide a source for food not spoiling in Seanchan occupied territories.

 

I think it can be implied by the fact that food spoiling isn't mentioned, when it is mentioned in every other land.

 

Not so sure about this.

 

TGs Pg 544 Tuon pov

"A sea breeze blew through the canopy, ruffling the canvas and carrying with it the scent of rotten fish. Many things seemed to be rotting these days"

& pg 559 Fortuona pov

"-which had seemed lush and full of life just weeks before-had grown stunted and was beginning to yellow. Where were the weeds and thistles? Recently seeds didn't sprout as they should. Like grain they were going bad..."

 

Seems to me like these hint they are having the same problems. Regardless the "order" of the Seanchan lands has zero to do with food spoiling or not.

[Taura-Tierno]

Exactly. Last time they were sent to capture and kill and do as much damage as they could..

 

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

 

That means they'd have to honestly with all their heart think they're going to die..

If the Aes Sedai thinks that being collared is death, then they could.. But they should know otherwise, especially after Egwene (hopefully) explained how the Seanchan work.

 

The tower wouldn't be crumbling, nor would there be Damane/Sul'dam weaving deadly weaves.. I'm pretty sure they'd feel quite a bit less threatened.. The Aes Sedai (At least the novices, but I'm sure the Aes Sedai as well.) thought that the Raken were Shadowspawn, now that they know better, they can't strike first.. Though, with traveling, I doubt that'd use Raken anymore.

 

 

Edit: forgot to add something.

 

In my opinion, Egwene seems to consider being collared a threat to her life. Have you noticed how she reacts when faced with even a remote possibility or being returned to the Seanchan? She goes crazy. In Falme. Near Tar Valon, with Verin, she started blowing up things to scare the Whitecloaks away. During the assault on the White Tower, she even thought to herself that she was in some kind of battle fury. You don't react the way she did unless you feel extremely threatened.

 

I'm not saying that you are technically wrong. You aren't. Being collared is not equal to actual death - but the feeling of being in mortal danger isn't rational. You don't stand around contemplating and calculating whether the current situation will lead to your death unless you use the One Power as a weapon. I had a similar discussion a few years ago. It was about this scenario:

 

And Aes Sedai is out riding in the middle of nowhere. She is stopped by a large group of highway men. The leader of these men says: "I will rob you, Aes Sedai. I swear that I will not kill you; I will simply take your money." My friend thought this would mean that the Aes Sedai couldn't use the One Power as a weapon, as she'd know she wasn't in any danger.

 

I argued that it would depend on the Aes Sedai. One Aes Sedai might not feel threatened enough. She might feel that she could stop them very well without using the OP as a weapon. She might be very strong in Air; that's all good.

 

Say instead that we have an Aes Sedai who, when she was a child, witnessed her whole family being murdered by highway men. Say that this Aes Sedai is extremely weak in Air. I'd say it's a fair bet that she would be able to use the OP as a weapon because, given her history with highway men, she'd have no reason whatsoever to believe him, and if he got close she might very well feel an irrational panic-like fear for her life. Without being able to use Air, she could feel threatened enough to start throwing fireballs instead.

 

My point? It depends on the Aes Sedai. If an Aes Sedai, during the attack, honestly belives that she'll have no trouble defeating a Seanchan party without resorting to lethal weaves, she wouldn't be able to use leathal weaves. But if the fight gets more and more difficult, and soldiers start swarming her to bring her down physically, her perception might change. Being swarmed by soldiers with weapons, and opposed by an enemy who have in the past brutally killed other Aes Sedai, could very well make that Aes Sedai feel threatened enough to use the OP as a weapon.

[Majsju]

Exactly. Last time they were sent to capture and kill and do as much damage as they could..

 

"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

 

That means they'd have to honestly with all their heart think they're going to die..

If the Aes Sedai thinks that being collared is death, then they could.. But they should know otherwise, especially after Egwene (hopefully) explained how the Seanchan work.

 

The tower wouldn't be crumbling, nor would there be Damane/Sul'dam weaving deadly weaves.. I'm pretty sure they'd feel quite a bit less threatened.. The Aes Sedai (At least the novices, but I'm sure the Aes Sedai as well.) thought that the Raken were Shadowspawn, now that they know better, they can't strike first.. Though, with traveling, I doubt that'd use Raken anymore.

 

 

Edit: forgot to add something.

 

In my opinion, Egwene seems to consider being collared a threat to her life. Have you noticed how she reacts when faced with even a remote possibility or being returned to the Seanchan? She goes crazy. In Falme. Near Tar Valon, with Verin, she started blowing up things to scare the Whitecloaks away. During the assault on the White Tower, she even thought to herself that she was in some kind of battle fury. You don't react the way she did unless you feel extremely threatened.

 

I'm not saying that you are technically wrong. You aren't. Being collared is not equal to actual death - but the feeling of being in mortal danger isn't rational. You don't stand around contemplating and calculating whether the current situation will lead to your death unless you use the One Power as a weapon. I had a similar discussion a few years ago. It was about this scenario:

 

And Aes Sedai is out riding in the middle of nowhere. She is stopped by a large group of highway men. The leader of these men says: "I will rob you, Aes Sedai. I swear that I will not kill you; I will simply take your money." My friend thought this would mean that the Aes Sedai couldn't use the One Power as a weapon, as she'd know she wasn't in any danger.

 

I argued that it would depend on the Aes Sedai. One Aes Sedai might not feel threatened enough. She might feel that she could stop them very well without using the OP as a weapon. She might be very strong in Air; that's all good.

 

Say instead that we have an Aes Sedai who, when she was a child, witnessed her whole family being murdered by highway men. Say that this Aes Sedai is extremely weak in Air. I'd say it's a fair bet that she would be able to use the OP as a weapon because, given her history with highway men, she'd have no reason whatsoever to believe him, and if he got close she might very well feel an irrational panic-like fear for her life. Without being able to use Air, she could feel threatened enough to start throwing fireballs instead.

 

My point? It depends on the Aes Sedai. If an Aes Sedai, during the attack, honestly belives that she'll have no trouble defeating a Seanchan party without resorting to lethal weaves, she wouldn't be able to use leathal weaves. But if the fight gets more and more difficult, and soldiers start swarming her to bring her down physically, her perception might change. Being swarmed by soldiers with weapons, and opposed by an enemy who have in the past brutally killed other Aes Sedai, could very well make that Aes Sedai feel threatened enough to use the OP as a weapon.

 

Keep in mind that Egwene seems to suffer from quite severe PTSD after her time as damane, and as a result she tosses all rationality out the window just by hearing about damane. But, until TOM she was the only Aes Sedai in the WT who had had that experience, so it might be difficult for many AS to view collaring as threatening as they should. Which raises the question what it will mean that Teslyn and Edesina just arrived in the WT.

[Taura-Tierno]

I think that Egwene's behaviour is very indicative to exactly how it feels to be damane. It seems that, at this points, even if some Aes Sedai disagree with Egwene, most of them would agree that she's far from weak, and not just in the One Power. If she's so tramatized by what happened, if she felt it is so bad to be collared that death is preferable (she blew up as many raken with prisoners as possible) it should only serve to strengthen the fear of being collared. If she is that traumatized, it must be horribly, horribly awful. I doubt she's painted a pretty picture of the life of a damane. Thus, the Aes Sedai should consider it a very major threat.

 

Teslyn and Edesina will probably be further evidence to the seriousness of the threat. If the Seanchan attack again, when the Aes Sedai are in the Tower, they will meet a whole lot more resistance than they did the last time.

[moratcorlm]

Yet the more Aes Sedai return to relate their tales, demonstrably alive, the less they'll be able to trick themselves into breaking the Third Oath. At the time Egwene went into a berserk state, she had not sworn the Oaths. That the Aes Sedai will make a more concerted effort at resistance, possibly even have planned out organized defenses, is likely the case. On the other hand, the numerous Aes Sedai damane may almost certainly have taught their sul'dam the best ways to avoid triggering the "last extreme" clause. Up until recently the Seanchan were not even convinced that the Aes Sedai were in fact bound by the Oaths; they'll take that into consideration this time.

[Taura-Tierno]

Then how could Teslyn and Joline use the OP as a weapon for Mat, without even being on the battlefield? How did they manage it at Dumai's wells? The oath is not as strict as you would have it be - not fir all Aes Sedai.

 

There is no way, whatsoever, that an Aes Sedai will believe that Seanchan will not kill them if they resist. They did last time. Better that a marath damane is dead than free.Anyone claiming to come without intent to kill would be seen as a ruse.

[moratcorlm]

What if the leashed Aes Sedai lead the assault, shouting "We come in peace"?

[Taura-Tierno]

That would be lies, which they would unable to speak. Capturing people is not peace, no matter how you twist the words.

[moratcorlm]

Assume for the moment that they did believe the words. Would the marath'damane be moved?

[wvlr2]

What if the leashed Aes Sedai lead the assault, shouting "We come in peace"?

The leashed AS are still bound by the three oaths so they can not lie like that. Obviously an "assault" is not "peace".

 

After the first attack, all AS will "immediately" feel sufficiently threatened by a second attack and be able to fight from the get go. The preception of danger is all that is needed and any AS will automatically have that precieption now.

 

There were many other AS fighting during the first WT attack, they just were not as organized and not doing as good a job of it as Egwene did.

 

If the Rebal camp was the one attacked, I think that the level of responce would have been much greater as well. The Rebals practiced frequently for a Forsaken attack. Eliada's AS were too busy being stupid to start preparing for the Last Battle.

[moratcorlm]

The leashed AS are still bound by the three oaths so they can not lie like that. Obviously an "assault" is not "peace".

The mistake was all mine. There is no assault on the Aes Sedai's lives, merely on their freedoms; use "mass arrest" or "enslavement" or whatever word you like. It's still peaceable as long as they don't respond with violence, much as cops are called "peace officers" despite having the power to deprive people of their freedom. It wouldn't be hard to make the Aes Damane believe that they have the jurisdiction, so to speak, and state that they mean the Aes Sedai no harm.

The preception of danger is all that is needed and any AS will automatically have that precieption now.

The perception of imminent danger to the life of a sister or a Warder, which perception is blunted, not aggravated, by the testimony of Egwene, Teslyn, Joline, and Edesina. It is not merely enough to see a Seanchan uniform to believe oneself in imminent danger; note that Masuri, Annoura, and Seonid could not even perform a show of force against Whitecloaks, who have a thousand-year history of slaughter of any Aes Sedai they could find.

There were many other AS fighting during the first WT attack, they just were not as organized and not doing as good a job of it as Egwene did.

Because Egwene was able to massacre people with a sa'angreal (including those running away from her in a flagrant violation of the Third Oath). It is rather unlikely that the Aes Sedai will have angreal on hand. Organization into circles will be possible, if drilling has been taking place, though we have no hint that it has, but will nonetheless take time.

[Taura-Tierno]

No. Anyone Traveling into the Tower would be a threat. If the Seanchan wanted peace, they'd approach the city and ask permission to enter. If they did it that way, yeah, they might trick the Aes Sedai for a surprise strike. But the moment the first aes Sedai is collared, that trick is over. After that, the Tower would know they don't come in peace, and could use the OP to fight.

[moratcorlm]

The moment they show that they're trying not to kill Aes Sedai, the Oath binding Aes Sedai against using the OP except when they're in danger of being killed is overruled? How does that work? Think about the Whitecloak example. The last extreme of defending their own lives. Or those of their own Warders, who I suppose they could use as suicide soldiers in order to escalate enough so they can fight. But I expect that Suffa and the others will have informed the sul'dam of that exception, and they could choose to tie the men in Air if they desired.

 

The Seanchan will have to be more careful about not outright killing Aes Sedai this time, though, because that's the moment they'll probably be able to fight back.