Padin Fain, Shadar Logoth, and what the heck is Mashadar?

[Awakened]

Ok, the one thing that has bugged me about the WoT series is what the heck is Mashadar and where did this corruption come from. I have vague memories of Mordeth's assassins being "unnatural" somehow, with no explanation as to how they got that way. Where did the taint that destroyed Shadar Logoth come from?

[gary0044187]

Ok, the one thing that has bugged me about the WoT series is what the heck is Mashadar and where did this corruption come from. I have vague memories of Mordeth's assassins being "unnatural" somehow, with no explanation as to how they got that way. Where did the taint that destroyed Shadar Logoth come from?

I would really like to see some further explanation to this as well. I have always thought of it as some secondary evil that keeps the shadow in check.

[FarShainMael]

Mashadar is a malign entity formed from the suspicion and distrust which dominated the citizens of Aridhol (now Shadar Logoth) because they tried to use techniques of the Shadow against the Shadow itself. This hatred and mistrust grew until it reached such a peak that all the citizens killed each other in a single night, leaving behind Mashadar, which manifests as a silvery mist.

 

Mashadar is not the same as Machin Shin, and may in fact be opposite to it, since MS is a product of the taint on saidin. It's been suggested in abother thread that if the SL Waygate was open during the cleansing, Mashadar and MS may have encountered and possibly destroyed each other.

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mashadar

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Shadar_Logoth

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Machin_Shin

 

The taint that destroyed SL is neither of these things. It came from saidin - or rather, it came from the Dark One, who had managed to corrupt saidin with it. Rand cleansed saidin by forcing it through a tube of saidar provided by Nynaeve during their link in the Cleansing. He had realised that the way his wounds acted against each other - one from Ba'alzamon's staff, one from Padan Fain's SL dagger - showed that he could react the taint against the SL evil and they would destroy each other.

 

(See WH35 for details.)

[Calliro]

But yet, how could Mashadar have taken shape from 'just' suspicion and distrust? Even in Randland that seems unlikely, unless something else was involved.

[Aquarius]

But yet, how could Mashadar have taken shape from 'just' suspicion and distrust? Even in Randland that seems unlikely, unless something else was involved.

In his quest to fight the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, Mordeth found "something" or "some hings" (can't remember the exact RJ quote), some kind of power to fight the Shadow. But that power was what evenytally turned Aridhol upon itself like said the above post. So this "power" is probably what makes Mashadar.

[Lacanos]

 

The taint that destroyed SL is neither of these things. It came from saidin - or rather, it came from the Dark One, who had managed to corrupt saidin with it. Rand cleansed saidin by forcing it through a tube of saidar provided by Nynaeve during their link in the Cleansing. He had realised that the way his wounds acted against each other - one from Ba'alzamon's staff, one from Padan Fain's SL dagger - showed that he could react the taint against the SL evil and they would destroy each other.

 

(See WH35 for details.)

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying the Shadar Logoth taint came from Saidin? I think you're confused; that's the taint on the ways. The Shadar Logoth "taint", as you explain in the second half, is a counter-balance to the taint on Saidin.

[Mulk]

I could be mistaken, Lacanos, but I believe he is referring to the towering dome of the taint that Rand pulled from saidin and attached to SL, which resulted in that city's destruction with the interaction of that evil and the evil already existent in SL.

[Lacanos]

I could be mistaken, Lacanos, but I believe he is referring to the towering dome of the taint that Rand pulled from saidin and attached to SL, which resulted in that city's destruction with the interaction of that evil and the evil already existent in SL.

That would make a lot of sense :P

[FarShainMael]

 

The taint that destroyed SL is neither of these things. It came from saidin - or rather, it came from the Dark One, who had managed to corrupt saidin with it. Rand cleansed saidin by forcing it through a tube of saidar provided by Nynaeve during their link in the Cleansing. He had realised that the way his wounds acted against each other - one from Ba'alzamon's staff, one from Padan Fain's SL dagger - showed that he could react the taint against the SL evil and they would destroy each other.

 

(See WH35 for details.)

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying the Shadar Logoth taint came from Saidin? I think you're confused; that's the taint on the ways. The Shadar Logoth "taint", as you explain in the second half, is a counter-balance to the taint on Saidin.

 

No, there's the taint that was generated in SL and which became Mashadar, but it didn't destroy SL. The taint on saidin did that, when Rand cleansed saidin. It's perhaps clearer if we keep the word 'taint' for the effect the DO had on saidin, and use Mashadar for the evil in SL. QA's got it right. (Except for one thing: I wear pink bootees )

[Mulk]

 

The taint that destroyed SL is neither of these things. It came from saidin - or rather, it came from the Dark One, who had managed to corrupt saidin with it. Rand cleansed saidin by forcing it through a tube of saidar provided by Nynaeve during their link in the Cleansing. He had realised that the way his wounds acted against each other - one from Ba'alzamon's staff, one from Padan Fain's SL dagger - showed that he could react the taint against the SL evil and they would destroy each other.

 

(See WH35 for details.)

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but you're saying the Shadar Logoth taint came from Saidin? I think you're confused; that's the taint on the ways. The Shadar Logoth "taint", as you explain in the second half, is a counter-balance to the taint on Saidin.

 

No, there's the taint that was generated in SL and which became Mashadar, but it didn't destroy SL. The taint on saidin did that, when Rand cleansed saidin. It's perhaps clearer if we keep the word 'taint' for the effect the DO had on saidin, and use Mashadar for the evil in SL. QA's got it right. (Except for one thing: I wear pink bootees )

 

/pokes FSM

 

Just cause

[FarShainMael]

ouch..

[Awakened]

But yet, how could Mashadar have taken shape from 'just' suspicion and distrust? Even in Randland that seems unlikely, unless something else was involved.

In his quest to fight the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, Mordeth found "something" or "some hings" (can't remember the exact RJ quote), some kind of power to fight the Shadow. But that power was what evenytally turned Aridhol upon itself like said the above post. So this "power" is probably what makes Mashadar.

 

What that "something" was is what I am curious about. Where the heck did it come from and what did it do? Why did it allow Mordeth so much power, and what power did it actually grant him? With the series ending in the next book, this is something that could use some major clarification.

[jemron]

But yet, how could Mashadar have taken shape from 'just' suspicion and distrust? Even in Randland that seems unlikely, unless something else was involved.

In his quest to fight the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, Mordeth found "something" or "some hings" (can't remember the exact RJ quote), some kind of power to fight the Shadow. But that power was what evenytally turned Aridhol upon itself like said the above post. So this "power" is probably what makes Mashadar.

 

What that "something" was is what I am curious about. Where the heck did it come from and what did it do? Why did it allow Mordeth so much power, and what power did it actually grant him? With the series ending in the next book, this is something that could use some major clarification.

 

Didn't Aginor also refer to the dagger that Mat had at tEotW as an "old enemy?"

 

So, it seems that the evil of Mashadar/SL is older than this Age's version of it (Mordeth). So, yes, I do believe there is an actual "other power" or "other evil" that we have yet to learn more about. Hopefully we will. It seems to be a big important part of the ending, what with Fain waiting for Rand in the Blight.

[ROB_88]

i highly doubt we will ever get a clear answer to exactly what this "something" was that Mordeth found.

with absolutely nothing to back me up, i think he used the portalstones to find anything that could counter the Shadow like how it's suspected that the Seanchan used them to bring in Grolm and other beasts

[Vlad]

It seems to be a big important part of the ending, what with Fain waiting for Rand in the Blight.

 

Agreed, especially if Fain is the "something that has to touch the DO" in order to close the Bore. I can easily see sealing Fain in w/ the DO to battle it out for eternity, thus healing both halves of Rand's wound and keeping the DO busy from bothering the world ever again all in one swoop.

[RedRaider]

But yet, how could Mashadar have taken shape from 'just' suspicion and distrust? Even in Randland that seems unlikely, unless something else was involved.

In his quest to fight the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, Mordeth found "something" or "some hings" (can't remember the exact RJ quote), some kind of power to fight the Shadow. But that power was what evenytally turned Aridhol upon itself like said the above post. So this "power" is probably what makes Mashadar.

 

What that "something" was is what I am curious about. Where the heck did it come from and what did it do? Why did it allow Mordeth so much power, and what power did it actually grant him? With the series ending in the next book, this is something that could use some major clarification.

 

Didn't Aginor also refer to the dagger that Mat had at tEotW as an "old enemy?"

 

So, it seems that the evil of Mashadar/SL is older than this Age's version of it (Mordeth). So, yes, I do believe there is an actual "other power" or "other evil" that we have yet to learn more about. Hopefully we will. It seems to be a big important part of the ending, what with Fain waiting for Rand in the Blight.

 

The dagger and all the other goods that were in the pile in SL that Mat and the gang stumbled upon must be connected in some way to the power that the creator used to bind the dark one. That would be about the oldest enemy that the DO / shadow has. I wonder if those things could be a counter to the true power since it kept the wound in Rand'side at bay?

[Erunion]

One thing we need to keep in mind, there are more powers in tWOT than just the One Power or the True Power. We have portal stones, Dreaming, Min's visions, Ogier Singing, Aiel Singing, Stedding, Ta'veren, and Mashadar, all of which are magical, yet seem to be not related to (or at least not directly related to) the One Power.

 

Randland is full of Magic, just the One Power is so much flashier than all the others, we tend to overlook them. It seems that our friend Mordeth found and harnessed one of these powers, and spread it. Eventually, it became Mashadar.

[Durinax]

One thing we need to keep in mind, there are more powers in tWOT than just the One Power or the True Power. We have portal stones, Dreaming, Min's visions, Ogier Singing, Aiel Singing, Stedding, Ta'veren, and Mashadar, all of which are magical, yet seem to be not related to (or at least not directly related to) the One Power.

 

Randland is full of Magic, just the One Power is so much flashier than all the others, we tend to overlook them. It seems that our friend Mordeth found and harnessed one of these powers, and spread it. Eventually, it became Mashadar.

portal stones seem to be entirely OP based

 

I think that there are ancient evils, and those are based off the original 7 cardinal sins such as greed, hatred, lust, pride, etc. I think that these are each represented in each age, and that mordeth accessed an DO for hatred and got severely damaged and corrupted giving him his powers.

[Erunion]

No, the portal stones do not seem to be entirely OP based. Verin, when first giving exposition on them, said that they were around before the Age of Legends and that there was likely a way to use them without the OP. They don't seem to be Ter'Angreal, and have powers much more like the World of Dreams than like the One Power. However, like the World of Dreams, they can be accessed using the One Power. You can get to T'A'R using the power, but Dreamers and Wolfbrothers, who get there naturally, do not need the OP at all. The One Power is a tool that allows you to use the Portal Stones, but it's not necessarily the only tool, nor the way the Portal Stones themselves operate. (It may be, but I don't think it is)

[blazetheearth]

One thing we need to keep in mind, there are more powers in tWOT than just the One Power or the True Power. We have portal stones, Dreaming, Min's visions, Ogier Singing, Aiel Singing, Stedding, Ta'veren, and Mashadar, all of which are magical, yet seem to be not related to (or at least not directly related to) the One Power.

 

Randland is full of Magic, just the One Power is so much flashier than all the others, we tend to overlook them. It seems that our friend Mordeth found and harnessed one of these powers, and spread it. Eventually, it became Mashadar.

portal stones seem to be entirely OP based

 

I think that there are ancient evils, and those are based off the original 7 cardinal sins such as greed, hatred, lust, pride, etc. I think that these are each represented in each age, and that mordeth accessed an DO for hatred and got severely damaged and corrupted giving him his powers.

 

I agree that they seem to be solely based on the OP, but to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes "Most of the time a lack of evidence is not in and of itself evidence."

 

Just because we do not see anyone except OP users manipulate them, does not mean that the portal stones could not be used by other means, just that none of the characters we have seen or heard of managed to use them without it.

Remember, supposedly only 3 things touch all of the worlds of the portal stones (or all the Worlds that Might Be), the DO, The Creator, and TAR. None of those 3 need the OP, so how would the portal stones have been taken or placed in worlds where the OP doesn't exist? I actually think that the OP is the only way that Randlanders (including AoL AS and Chosen) remember to use them.

 

Hmmm...slight side note, I wonder if there is a PS in Finnland?

 

The only information that we are given about PS and about any experiments done to them, are given by OP users, and the experiments (even in the AoL) were done by OP users and therefore centered around the OP. I have to wonder what might have happened if instead of trying to move the one outside Stedding Tsofu, the Ogier had instead Sung to it. We'll probably never know.

 

I definitely agree with your use of the word "seem" though. It implies doubt, and a willingness to consider other possibilities.

 

Another side note. A magic that wasn't mention by Erunion, The Horn of Valere. It predates the AoL, it is not a ter'angreal, as it doesn't produce an effect as a result of the OP. The AS put minimal study in to it (most likely using the OP) and weren't able to figure anything (that we know of) out about it. PS respond to the OP, unlike the HoV, but they also predate the AoL and the AoL AS never fully understood them.

[Erunion]

I didn't mention the HoV? That was an oversight! It, along with Ogier Singing, seems to have the most obvious not OP magical effect.