Testing

[Kidicaris]

I would say there are plenty of reasons to doubt it. What if Taim wins and holds the BT through the last battle. What if Rand dies and can't institute some kind of test? What if all the Ashaman are killed at Tarmon Gaidon? What if the second breaking destroys the Black Tower? What if the DO wins and the whole world is "poof" gone?

 

Also, where is it said anywhere that channelers were tested at all in the AoL? I could be wrong but I don't think its ever been confirmed. Its likely, but not certain.

 

 

heh. The story of shaitan and his minions. What ifs. Because what if is the closest thing they can get to a victory in this series.

 

Oh as for evidence of testing, ask rand sedai who is now the oldest living male aes sedai who has been tested.

 

I don't have the Guide with me right now, but if IIRC, the Aes Sedai of the AOL were not subjected to tests anything like the Third Agers "test for the shawl". I remember that they were tested for strength in the One Power and potential, before being given over to training. That was about it. Apparently, aspiring Aes Sedai were not even tested to establish character, as the way so many fell to the Shadow would seem to prove.

 

So, even if Rand had been tested in his previous lifetime as Lews Therin, I'm pretty sure the test was very different to what Third Agers submit Accepted to when testing them "for the shawl" and if anything, it is they who should adjust to any rediscovered training methods that Rand may (may not) establish and not the other way around.

 

It seems like the AS on the AoL had careers and lives and families. Unlike the 4th Age version where being AS is much more... central to a woman's identity and lifestyle. Not to say the AS title in the AoL was meaningless, it may have been one of the most meaningful and prestigious characteristics a person could have, but it wasn't the only thing. Also incredibly significant was the "third name" which seems to have been awarded to people who excelled in their field, career or life--which was attained by most of the Forsaken before they went to the Shadow.

 

Oh, I had a point... Along with whatever basic training AS have in the OP (and presumably basic responsibility to be ethical and moral with their abilities) it seems they sought education in professions as well, likely outside the administration of the Hall of the Servants. Unlike in the 4th Age there doesn't seem to have been a place where AS were recommended to live together where they were clothed and fed and paid.

I think it is unlikely there were tests that would prevent someone from becoming AS in the AoL because they were not mentally frigid enough to be ice queens. That would open up a whole can of worms where there are many organizations for channelers outside the AS, like the 4th Age's Kin and the WF and the WOs. Or, perhaps if such tests existed the failed novice or accepted--or whatever they were called, were never cast out of the training process, just "held back" while they received special education? Ugh so little is known and this is so frustrating since the AS obsess me. There could have been a mentoring system like the Jedi and Sith have, or there could have been a less intimate process like the current AS train. Perhaps the Binding Rods were used in some way to prevent the flunkies from being able to tarnish the AS reputation(not just AS criminals).

 

And now, as usual, I'll lament RJ's death and the fact that we'll never get to know.

[Darth Krewl]

the process to being raised might turn out to be different in AOL compared to third aggers. But i think they will have to go through a test of somesorts. To weed out the weak and corrupt from those who truly deserve the title of Sedai.

 

Actually, I think the very same could be said about the women who wrongly call themselves Aes Sedai in the Third Age, Elan. Besides, forgive me, but it was you who brought up the fact that Rand was properly raised Aes Sedai in his previous lifetime. I just observed that raising someone properly during the AoL cannot be considered the same as being raised to "the shawl" during the Third Age.

 

The ashaman at the moment need to learn many things. I remember canler learning the view of bonding and how it pissed off taim. For a very good reason.

 

Yes, they do. But certainly not from the women who use the title Aes Sedai during the Third Age who, IMO, have a ton to learn about what being Aes Sedai is all about themselves. So, sorry, but I just couldn't see the Asha'man learning anything from these women; much less picking up any of their terrible system, traditions, ways, so on and so forth.

 

It seems like the AS on the AoL had careers and lives and families. Unlike the 4th Age version where being AS is much more... central to a woman's identity and lifestyle. Not to say the AS title in the AoL was meaningless, it may have been one of the most meaningful and prestigious characteristics a person could have, but it wasn't the only thing. Also incredibly significant was the "third name" which seems to have been awarded to people who excelled in their field, career or life--which was attained by most of the Forsaken before they went to the Shadow.

 

Oh, I had a point... Along with whatever basic training AS have in the OP (and presumably basic responsibility to be ethical and moral with their abilities) it seems they sought education in professions as well, likely outside the administration of the Hall of the Servants. Unlike in the 4th Age there doesn't seem to have been a place where AS were recommended to live together where they were clothed and fed and paid.

I think it is unlikely there were tests that would prevent someone from becoming AS in the AoL because they were not mentally frigid enough to be ice queens. That would open up a whole can of worms where there are many organizations for channelers outside the AS, like the 4th Age's Kin and the WF and the WOs. Or, perhaps if such tests existed the failed novice or accepted--or whatever they were called, were never cast out of the training process, just "held back" while they received special education? Ugh so little is known and this is so frustrating since the AS obsess me. There could have been a mentoring system like the Jedi and Sith have, or there could have been a less intimate process like the current AS train. Perhaps the Binding Rods were used in some way to prevent the flunkies from being able to tarnish the AS reputation(not just AS criminals).

 

And now, as usual, I'll lament RJ's death and the fact that we'll never get to know.

 

Good points all. And thanks for the reminder, now all I read in the BWB is coming back.

 

Aes Sedai were allowed to live lives as normal folk, yes. The only thing that set them apart was their ability to channel, of course. But, while affiliated to the Hall of the Servants, they went about their business and only reported from time to time and came together for meetings and such; they were more like independent agents attached to a central body, IIRC.

 

It wasn't until the drilling of the Bore and the eventual war vs. the Shadow that they joined their efforts full time to fight. Either way, I seriously doubt that AS hopefuls were subjected to such brutal trials and tests as the one Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve. IMO, that's another way for Jordan to illustrate just how primitive and backwards it all became after the War of the Shadow and the Breaking of the World.

 

Alas, Jordan's gone, like you've observed. So, sadly and unfortunately, this looks like something we may never know for a fact.

[johthohar]

Either way, I seriously doubt that AS hopefuls were subjected to such brutal trials and tests as the one Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve.

 

IIRC Egwene specifically expressed disgust at the way Nynaeve's testing was handled. The way I understood it is that each Sister present was responsible for a given phase of the "test" and it couldn't be halted once it was started. So, from that perspective, Egwene's only guilt for Nynaeve's test was the selection of the testers and the part of the test she was responsible for. Unless there was something I missed.

[Mr Ares]

I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

you don't just get raised without going through a process. Otherwise any tom, dik and harry can be raised to Aes Sedai.

There could easily be some ritual involved without the requirement for a test.

 

On the Asha'man being tested and joining the AS, I have two questions:

Why would the AM want to join the AS?

And why would the AS want the AM to join them?

For the AS, it would require destroying masses of law and custom, which many Sisters would be none too pleased about, and for the AM it would require them to join an organisation that has, for milennia, hunted down male channelers, as opposed to being part of an organisation that is made for men like them.

[johthohar]

I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

you don't just get raised without going through a process. Otherwise any tom, dik and harry can be raised to Aes Sedai.

There could easily be some ritual involved without the requirement for a test.

 

On the Asha'man being tested and joining the AS, I have two questions:

Why would the AM want to join the AS?

And why would the AS want the AM to join them?

For the AS, it would require destroying masses of law and custom, which many Sisters would be none too pleased about, and for the AM it would require them to join an organisation that has, for milennia, hunted down male channelers, as opposed to being part of an organisation that is made for men like them.

 

I believe he is only saying he thinks the Ashaman will be tested in a manner similar to how the Aes Sedai are tested before being raised to the shawl. In fact he is strangely sure of it for some reason.... Can't figure out why as he has given no evidence to support this theory. I don't think he ever implied they would join together somehow.

[Elan Tedronai]

I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

you don't just get raised without going through a process. Otherwise any tom, dik and harry can be raised to Aes Sedai.

There could easily be some ritual involved without the requirement for a test.

 

On the Asha'man being tested and joining the AS, I have two questions:

Why would the AM want to join the AS?

And why would the AS want the AM to join them?

For the AS, it would require destroying masses of law and custom, which many Sisters would be none too pleased about, and for the AM it would require them to join an organisation that has, for milennia, hunted down male channelers, as opposed to being part of an organisation that is made for men like them.

 

 

it's a matter of necessity. The split between the female and male channellers had to with events after the sealing of the bore by LTT and his crew. Both sides need to work together as they did in AOL. The customs you speak of has risen because for the past 3000 years male channellers were exposed to madness from channeling. There is no taint anymore.

 

The female and male aes sedai will go back to AOL days of co-operation when the final battle is done. There won't be any need to work individually anymore.

The black tower days are numbered. It will be rent in fire and blood. I won't be suprised if they reside in that massive palace elaida was building. The wheel itself will guarantee the reunification. The bore will be sealed perfectly after tarmon gaidon is done. Not patched up like LTT but sealed properly like it was before the war of power.

 

And then some poor sod will start the process all over again by drilling through the DO prison again

 

 

johthohar

 

My evidence comes from Rand Sedai himself. The current ashaman need to learn alot of things. They are not bonafide Aes sedai. To attain the ranks of those in AOL, they need to be raised properly and that raising in my opinion will take form of test. I don't how or where it is going to be. Perhaps they might find the process AOL aes sedai used to raise one of their own or perhaps a new one but it shall happen.

[johthohar]

@Mr Ares: I stand corrected.

 

it's a matter of necessity. The split between the female and male channellers had to with events after the sealing of the bore by LTT and his crew. Both sides need to work together as they did in AOL. The customs you speak of has risen because for the past 3000 years male channellers were exposed to madness from channeling. There is no taint anymore.

 

The female and male aes sedai will go back to AOL days of co-operation when the final battle is done. There won't be any need to work individually anymore.

The black tower days are numbered. It will be rent in fire and blood. I won't be suprised if they reside in that massive palace elaida was building. The wheel itself will guarantee the reunification. The bore will be sealed perfectly after tarmon gaidon is done. Not patched up like LTT but sealed properly like it was before the war of power.

 

And then some poor sod will start the process all over again by drilling through the DO prison again

 

 

johthohar

 

My evidence comes from Rand Sedai himself. The current ashaman need to learn alot of things. They are not bonafide Aes sedai. To attain the ranks of those in AOL, they need to be raised properly and that raising in my opinion will take form of test. I don't how or where it is going to be. Perhaps they might find the process AOL aes sedai used to raise one of their own or perhaps a new one but it shall happen.

 

As it has been pointed out numerous times, Rand did not say he was tested. He said he was raised. And two factions that have been estranged for three thousand years are not going to magically start getting along after the Last Battle. Any joining of the Black and White towers would be in the distant future. Personally, I think any conjecture otherwise is ridiculous.

[Darth Krewl]

Either way, I seriously doubt that AS hopefuls were subjected to such brutal trials and tests as the one Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve.

 

IIRC Egwene specifically expressed disgust at the way Nynaeve's testing was handled. The way I understood it is that each Sister present was responsible for a given phase of the "test" and it couldn't be halted once it was started. So, from that perspective, Egwene's only guilt for Nynaeve's test was the selection of the testers and the part of the test she was responsible for. Unless there was something I missed.

 

Thanks for the clarification. My point was that I just don't think the AS of the AoL were subjected to such trying and unnecessary tests to obtain the title of Aes Sedai. I understand how Egwene couldn't be seen to have taken sides because of her personal relation to Nynaeve, but still IMO, if she really wanted to be seen as a neutral party, she could've also made sure that the life of a woman who had already proven herself more than capable (and done more by herself than any of her peers combined) didn't have to be exposed in such foolish and reckless manner, only to suit Egwene's image and political ends.

[sleepinghour]

Hopefully Brandon or the encyclopedia will be able to tell us something about the ter'angreal's original use, which I'm guessing wasn't what current day Aes Sedai use it for. It's always been a theme in the books how much knowledge is distorted over time. It wouldn't surprise me if the testing ter'angreal was originally supposed to test whether the candidate was dedicated to serving the community.

 

I've also been wondering about the ter'angreal's strange reaction to balefire:

 

Nynaeve strode forward, blasting with the forbidden weave. Each strike made the ground tremble, as if in pain. The balefire shouldn't puncture the ground like that. Something was wrong.

[...]

With her last ounce of strength, she wove balefire and aimed it directly downward in front of them. The ground undulated in agony, almost like a living thing.

--ToM, A Choice

[Androl]

When a person normally taks a test it is normally to hole them to a certian standard.

 

This expecting Nynaeve, or any person, to meet a standard, by taking a test that was changed continuously is the height of AS stupidity. The fact that Egwene allowed it to happen also pissed me off.

 

The organization should have clearly defined criteria for the people giving the test and for those that take the test.

 

The answer "Well since it was so easy for her, we made it harder." is sheer idiocy.

[gambril]

It's sad to me how stupid Aes Sedai are. I'll never understand how they go around proclaiming to be 'Servants of All' when their every thought, custom and tradition totally flies in the face of it. If you proclaim yourself to be a Servant of All, how is it that their actions are always the direct opposite and it never dawns on any of them, ever? It blows my mind and erases any credibility for Aes Sedai as organiztion, especially under Egwene.

 

I would have liked it much better if Nynaeve decided she didn't want to associate herself with these "so-called Aes Sedai". The sitters and Egwene thinking they can declare Nynaeve Aes Sedai when they don't fulfill the requirements for the title themselves is absurd. Nynaeve was already a Servant of All and this test only proved it for those whoever doubted it. Rand said as much before she went to the Tower.

 

I sincerly hope Robert Jordan saved all his aces of humility for 'Aes Sedai' for the final act (AMOL), because alongside the Seanchan I've never read of a group of 'people' that deserved an order of humble pie more. And fittingly and ironically, Egwene as their new 'god Amyrlin' epitimizes this foremost heh.

 

It's pretty amazing how as each book goes by, Aes Sedai get worse instead of progressively getting better. Or perhaps it's just that as we got more insight into their inner workings and this coupled alongside the fact that they've virtually up to this point made no forward progress, more like baby side steps and ignoring all the things that really matter. Ie: They've as an orginization spent the entirety of the books thusfar serving themselves and not serving Randland - Everything Egwene has done has been done with Aes Sedai number 1 in her head. *Scowls in disgust @ Egwene* I hope Matrim peppers Egwene's muley hide ala Joline on the FOM while his Ta'veren nature freezes everyone watching rendering them incapable of doing anything. And when he releases her, he says, "The Pattern weaves as the Pattern wills".

[johthohar]

Wow.... I'm no fan of Aes Sedai but.... Just wow....

[moratcorlm]

Either way, I seriously doubt that AS hopefuls were subjected to such brutal trials and tests as the one Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve.

 

IIRC Egwene specifically expressed disgust at the way Nynaeve's testing was handled. The way I understood it is that each Sister present was responsible for a given phase of the "test" and it couldn't be halted once it was started. So, from that perspective, Egwene's only guilt for Nynaeve's test was the selection of the testers and the part of the test she was responsible for. Unless there was something I missed.

And Egwene would be among the most harsh. To show that she had been right in raising Nynaeve.

This is entirely a PR event for Egwene, and she gives the most torturous of all the tests to avoid a charge of favoritism. And, after all, she spends much of this book trying to compel Nynaeve to obey her; as the sul'dam taught her, a little stick helps with the carrot. Though the sul'dam were never this harsh with Egwene.

She could barely move. Her face was streaked with tears. She had hollow memories of fleeing battles, of leaving children to die. Of never being able to do enough. Her shoulder bled. A wolf’s bite. Her legs were flayed, as if she’d walked through a long patch of thorns. All across her body were burns and blisters. [...] She retched to the side. [...] Each betrayal, each frustrating weave. The impotence, the screams of the children, the deaths of people she knew and loved. She wept against the floor, curling up. Her entire body was afire with pain. Her shoulder, legs, arms and back still bled. She was burned to blisters in swaths across her body.

That she pretends outrage afterwards is also an excellent political move, since there was nothing to lose in it.

[johthohar]

Either way, I seriously doubt that AS hopefuls were subjected to such brutal trials and tests as the one Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve.

 

IIRC Egwene specifically expressed disgust at the way Nynaeve's testing was handled. The way I understood it is that each Sister present was responsible for a given phase of the "test" and it couldn't be halted once it was started. So, from that perspective, Egwene's only guilt for Nynaeve's test was the selection of the testers and the part of the test she was responsible for. Unless there was something I missed.

And Egwene would be among the most harsh. To show that she had been right in raising Nynaeve.

This is entirely a PR event for Egwene, and she gives the most torturous of all the tests to avoid a charge of favoritism. And, after all, she spends much of this book trying to compel Nynaeve to obey her; as the sul'dam taught her, a little stick helps with the carrot. Though the sul'dam were never this harsh with Egwene.

She could barely move. Her face was streaked with tears. She had hollow memories of fleeing battles, of leaving children to die. Of never being able to do enough. Her shoulder bled. A wolf’s bite. Her legs were flayed, as if she’d walked through a long patch of thorns. All across her body were burns and blisters. [...] She retched to the side. [...] Each betrayal, each frustrating weave. The impotence, the screams of the children, the deaths of people she knew and loved. She wept against the floor, curling up. Her entire body was afire with pain. Her shoulder, legs, arms and back still bled. She was burned to blisters in swaths across her body.

That she pretends outrage afterwards is also an excellent political move, since there was nothing to lose in it.

 

The first quote from the book is Nynaeve's POV and an assumption she makes. As far as I know we have no way to tell which test was administered by Egwene and therefore no way to know how unfair or harsh it was.

[moratcorlm]

We know at least that the last test, the largest torture Nynaeve had to endure, was designed by Egwene. And I see no reason to believe Nynaeve's assumption was wrong, or that she has changed her mind since choosing to accept it.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

We know at least that the last test, the largest torture Nynaeve had to endure, was designed by Egwene. And I see no reason to believe Nynaeve's assumption was wrong, or that she has changed her mind since choosing to accept it.

 

Well, Egwene DID apologize, which the other Aes Sedai didn't do. I think she meant it when she said she was sorry.

[gambril]

We know at least that the last test, the largest torture Nynaeve had to endure, was designed by Egwene. And I see no reason to believe Nynaeve's assumption was wrong, or that she has changed her mind since choosing to accept it.

 

Well, Egwene DID apologize, which the other Aes Sedai didn't do. I think she meant it when she said she was sorry.

 

Which means nothing when Egwene would do the same thing to her again.

[johthohar]

We know at least that the last test, the largest torture Nynaeve had to endure, was designed by Egwene. And I see no reason to believe Nynaeve's assumption was wrong, or that she has changed her mind since choosing to accept it.

 

I don't have the book with me right now. What was the last test and how do we know it was Egwene's design?

[gambril]

We know at least that the last test, the largest torture Nynaeve had to endure, was designed by Egwene. And I see no reason to believe Nynaeve's assumption was wrong, or that she has changed her mind since choosing to accept it.

 

I don't have the book with me right now. What was the last test and how do we know it was Egwene's design?

 

IIRC, Egwene's part in Nynaeve's test was making her decide to abandon Lan to his fate or not. When she didn't abandon Lan, Nynaeve thanked Egwene for showing her that the White Tower wasn't the most important thing to her, AMOA for Nynaeve :). I could be wrong though.

[moratcorlm]

"But the Two Rivers was you."

"Yes," Egwene admitted.

"And the last one. With Lan?"

Egwene nodded. "I'm sorry. I thought that if I didn't do it, nobody would—"

Egwene's tests included those whose goal was to force Nynaeve to abandon the Two Rivers and Lan to Shadowspawn, because, in her words,

It would not be good for them to determine that you would place anything before the White Tower. [...] Devotion is important.

As for Nynaeve,

She hated them. She hated each and every one of them.

[David Selig]

This is typical from Egwene, she had shown quite a few times in the series she cares more about her selfish goals than her friends. So nothing surprising really.

 

This time though it's not just selfish, it's really stupid too. Risking the strongest channeller the Aes Sedai have in such a test, the one among them who the Dragon Reborn trusts the most, with the Last Battle about to start any moment,is just idiotic on so many levels. The possible gain is microscopic compared to the risk involved. It's another example of how wrong the priorities of the White Tower still are, for all the talk about change from Egwene.

[randsc]

Egwene acknowledges that she had, in fact, been the most harsh. That she had created the scenarios that were most hurtful to Nynaeve. It's right there in the text.

[Mr Ares]

I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow.

ToM pg 748

It says raised but says nothing about testing

you don't just get raised without going through a process. Otherwise any tom, dik and harry can be raised to Aes Sedai.

There could easily be some ritual involved without the requirement for a test.

 

On the Asha'man being tested and joining the AS, I have two questions:

Why would the AM want to join the AS?

And why would the AS want the AM to join them?

For the AS, it would require destroying masses of law and custom, which many Sisters would be none too pleased about, and for the AM it would require them to join an organisation that has, for milennia, hunted down male channelers, as opposed to being part of an organisation that is made for men like them.

 

 

it's a matter of necessity. The split between the female and male channellers had to with events after the sealing of the bore by LTT and his crew. Both sides need to work together as they did in AOL. The customs you speak of has risen because for the past 3000 years male channellers were exposed to madness from channeling. There is no taint anymore.

 

The female and male aes sedai will go back to AOL days of co-operation when the final battle is done. There won't be any need to work individually anymore.

The black tower days are numbered. It will be rent in fire and blood. I won't be suprised if they reside in that massive palace elaida was building. The wheel itself will guarantee the reunification. The bore will be sealed perfectly after tarmon gaidon is done. Not patched up like LTT but sealed properly like it was before the war of power.

 

And then some poor sod will start the process all over again by drilling through the DO prison again

 

 

johthohar

 

My evidence comes from Rand Sedai himself. The current ashaman need to learn alot of things. They are not bonafide Aes sedai. To attain the ranks of those in AOL, they need to be raised properly and that raising in my opinion will take form of test. I don't how or where it is going to be. Perhaps they might find the process AOL aes sedai used to raise one of their own or perhaps a new one but it shall happen.

Randland can have AS and Asha'man - there is no reason either group would want to join with the other, nor any why they cannot work together while remaining separate.

[Darth Krewl]

So, let's see, Egwene does call Nynaeve back to the Tower to face the tests. And then, she does this:

 

"But the Two Rivers was you."

"Yes," Egwene admitted.

"And the last one. With Lan?"

Egwene nodded. "I'm sorry. I thought that if I didn't do it, nobody would—"

 

It would not be good for them to determine that you would place anything before the White Tower. [...] Devotion is important.

 

I guess this means I was right when I said that Egwene subjected her "friend" Nynaeve (because those quotes should make it clear that Egwene professes loyalty to no one and nothing, other than the White Tower and herself) to brutal tests. And again, I just can't see the much more civilized and evolved (the true) Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends doing this to any of their aspiring candidates. Much less, male channelers agreeing to joining such an institution any time soon.

[RedVanilla]

I think the sisters that did Nynaeve's test need penance to make their teeth crack. What she went through was pretty horrible. That said, if they continue to train in TAR, won't that invalidate further testings for the shawl? The Black Tower seems to award the dragon pin whenever they feel like they have mastered all the things to be taught, so I guess their way is you gain the knowledge, then you have already passed any test to prove yourself. I have to say, I think the Asha',man way is better.