How long before the Light runs out of souls?

[Awakened]

Shadar Logoth, Machin Shin, Draghkar, Myrdraal swords, mind traps (I think), dying in Teleranrhiod, seems that there are a lot of things that can destroy someone's soul in Randland. So how many more turnings before the Shadow wins this game by default in a war of attrition? I mean, he gets to pocket how many channeler souls alone simply through seduction and forcibly turning them? What happens when the Wheel turns enough time and he gets all of the channeler souls besides Rand's? Anyone thinks that maybe Ishmael actually had a pretty good point?

[blazetheearth]

Yes.....and No.

 

I understand ishy's point, but several off the things you mentioned do not necessarily provide souls to the Great Lord, only are said to strip the soul from a living person. We'll cover each mentioned in turn.

 

1. Shadar Logoth - Mashadar consumes the soul and makes it part of itself. Those that die as a result of it's touch do not go to the Great Lord, instead are consumed by Mashadar (i.e. not subject to re-birth or transmigration). Since Mashadar was created (2000 years ago), people have avoided the area and so have Shadowspawn which means that if we look at events in the book we have, Mashadar has consumed many, many more Shadowspawn than servant of the Light.

 

2. Machin Shin - Who do we see using the Ways? The Light-side characters use it sparingly, and pretty much stop entirely after tSR. The Ogier stopped using them almost immediately after travelers started coming out soulless, so Machin Shin has killed thousands more Shadowspawn than it has Ogier or human.

 

3. Draghkar - Again it seems they consume the soul, not turn it to the Great Lord. So, once a Draghkar takes you, the soul is gone from the Wheel. That being said, since we see a limited number of draghkar in the series it would seem that it is harder to cultivate a crop of them than say a herd of trollocs, otherwise the Blight would have overrun the Borderlands in 1 or 2 generations. The only conclusion that we are left with is that the Shadow has a limited number of these beasts and uses them as specialized assassins not regular troops. Possibly because the Great Lord knows that if he employs draghkar then any kills it makes. he still wont get the soul of the target.

 

4. Myrdraal Swords - While they use human souls during the forging, they do not reap the soul from the person killed with the blade.

 

5. Mind Traps - They are a very specialized form of control. We are not given the details of what goes on when a mind trap is being mad, but it seems that the only soul involved is the one of the person being trapped, and we are told that the Mind Trap Procees can only take place at Shayol Ghul. Kinda hard to march the entire population of any country (even Mayene) through SG in order to mind trap each citizen.

 

6. Dying in TAR - As far as we know (have proof on) the only souls that die forever in TAR are wolves. No evidence that TAR is a bar to any human souls, as a matter of fact, when SH is talking to Osan'gar and Aran'gar about Rahvin at the begining of LoC, Shadar Haran only mentions balefire as the reason Rahvin can't be transmigrated, no reference at all to the fact that not only was Rahvin bf'ed out of existence, but that he was also in TAR in the flesh. SH only mentions that at least they are not like Rahvin whose soul was "outside of time" presumably referring to balefire causing a 'reversal of time for the individual bf'ed'.

 

I just wanted to note that the things that can destroy souls have been much more effective against the Shadow than they have as far as destroying the souls of those supporting the Light. But I agree that Ishy does have a point, after all from his PoV, even if the Light wins 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 well....that still leaves that 1 out of 1,000,000 when the Great Lord will break free and crush the Wheel in his grip, breaking Time and the Wheel forever.

[Byzantine279]

I don't think in the WoT universe a soul can actually be destroyed by any method, everything you mentioned might delay the cycle but it cannot do anything else to it. And mindtraps do not destroy the soul, they sever the connection between the soul and the body in a manner that gives the person who crushed it complete control over you, yet leaves you alive and able to experience everything.

 

Corruption done to a soul during one lifetime, such as the taint, other forms of madness, being severed, etc, are all meaningless, they do not affect the soul when it is reborn in the next cycle.

[Darth Krewl]

I don't think in the WoT universe a soul can actually be destroyed by any method, everything you mentioned might delay the cycle but it cannot do anything else to it. And mindtraps do not destroy the soul, they sever the connection between the soul and the body in a manner that gives the person who crushed it complete control over you, yet leaves you alive and able to experience everything.

 

Corruption done to a soul during one lifetime, such as the taint, other forms of madness, being severed, etc, are all meaningless, they do not affect the soul when it is reborn in the next cycle.

 

If Jordan stuck to the Eastern concept of Samsara (cycle of rebirths) as he did with the concept of the Wheel itself, then this makes perfect sense.

[dovien]

There's a notable quote from Jordan about how Balefired souls are not lost forever.

I think he saw the problem of attrition coming and changed the rules with that quote to rebalance the situation.

[Darth Krewl]

There's a notable quote from Jordan about how Balefired souls are not lost forever.

I think he saw the problem of attrition coming and changed the rules with that quote to rebalance the situation.

 

So I heard.

 

And that may very well be the case, because I had always been under the impression that b'fired souls were lost forever and that this was the reason why both sides stopped using balefire during the Age of Legends, because so many threads ripped from the Pattern was unraveling it.

 

So, IMO, this change, though minor in the surface, is big. Because that would make the use of balefire much less dangerous than it has always been perceived to be.

 

Would you (or anyone else) happen to know if Jordan also said what the consequences of b'firing someone would be now?

[Cillian]

There's a notable quote from Jordan about how Balefired souls are not lost forever.

I think he saw the problem of attrition coming and changed the rules with that quote to rebalance the situation.

 

So I heard.

 

And that may very well be the case, because I had always been under the impression that b'fired souls were lost forever

 

Balefire was never said to destroy the soul. Seems to be a fairly common misconception though. It burns ones thread back a certain amount of time depending on the strenght, it doesn't remove the thread entirely.

 

and that this was the reason why both sides stopped using balefire during the Age of Legends, because so many threads ripped from the Pattern was unraveling it.

 

Yes, the pattern was unravelling becuase of the use of balefire and that's why everyone stopped using it.

[blazetheearth]

in LoC Shadar Haran talks to Osan'gar and Aran'gar. When Aran'gar goes off on the body that was provided for him/her, Shadar Haran says that the bodies are the best that can be found in the Borderlands, and that they should be happy since they did not share Rahvin's fate. Here is the quote of Shadar Haran's words:

 

"Think of Rahvin, whose soul is beyond saving, beyond time."

 

To me this implies that the sould exists still but that the DO cannot get his 'hands' on it because it was bf'ed, and the bf causes the soul to be removed from the pattern before his actual death. Time seems to be a barrier to the DO, not just from this statement but others as well, after all if time was manipulable by the DO then he would see future and the plans of the Forsaken acting on his orders would have reflected that the DO gave them foreknowledge. The overall impression I got was that if a DO-bonded soul died then the DO could snatch it and transmigrate it before the Wheel claimed the soul. Once the Wheel had captures the soul the DO can't touch it and has to wait for it to be spun back out. But if it is bf'ed, then he cannot get the soul because it went back to the Wheel before the actual moment of death. Just my interpretation of what was said in the books, but I think it lines up very well with what we have seen.

[Darth Krewl]

Balefire was never said to destroy the soul. Seems to be a fairly common misconception though. It burns ones thread back a certain amount of time depending on the strenght, it doesn't remove the thread entirely.

 

So it would seem, yep. That's why I said that I had always been under that impression. Could be misconception, right. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Yes, the pattern was unravelling becuase of the use of balefire and that's why everyone stopped using it.

 

Okay, but if souls could still be reborn, then why is using balefire such a dangerous thing, if those threads are not totally erased from the Pattern?

 

Because that's how I understood it. That each soul was a thread spinning round the Wheel and that dying the final death by being b'fired meant that said thread was permanently erased from the Pattern. In this sense, the dangers implied in using BF are perfectly understandable, 'cause the Pattern would thin till eventually, the Wheel wouldn't have enough threads to continue spinning its yarn.

[Jblaylock]

...

Okay, but if souls could still be reborn, then why is using balefire such a dangerous thing, if those threads are not totally erased from the Pattern?

 

...

 

I'm not sure, but the way I understand it is:

 

They are erased from the pattern. They will not be reborn in any of the remaining ages of that turning. Remember, there are 7 ages in each turning. Balefire pulls them out of the pattern. But once the 7th age ends, a new pattern starts to be spun with a new rotation of the wheel. Those "souls" are re-created anew.

[Kaznen]

 

Yes, the pattern was unravelling becuase of the use of balefire and that's why everyone stopped using it.

 

Okay, but if souls could still be reborn, then why is using balefire such a dangerous thing, if those threads are not totally erased from the Pattern?

Because depending on the amount of balefire used, what the victim of BF did was undone, look at the end of FoH. Rahvin killed Mat, Asmodean, Avi, and Sulin. Rand fights Rahvin and gives him a large dose of the BF. Those four people are no longer dead because Rahvin's actions were erased back to a certain point in time. So those four never did die, and the actions Rand did because of it never happened either. Al they have to go on was memory of what they thought happened. Asmo was thinking about how some of the Aiel said they saw him dead, but it turns out he wasn't.

 

Now put that on a larger scale. For a city to be destroyed with BF a lot of the OP would have to be used which could turn back the Wheel days, weeks, even months. So that city which was destroyed probably produced and exported goods up to before it was BFed. Those goods were never exported even though merchants remember receiving them. If an army was dispatched to fight a force of Trollocs, and suceeded, but the people who signed the order were in the city when it was BFed the orders were never signed and the force wasn't dispatched, meaning not only were the Trollocs not stopped but the army never left, so they would have been BFed also.

 

And that is just two examples of large scale BFing. I was wondering why there wasn't a pattern wide backlash after Rand BFed Grendal's palace with the CK because that should have sent the inhabitants threads back weeks or months. And after reading ToM I'm thinking their might have been some consequences after all.

[Awakened]

Yes.....and No.

 

I understand ishy's point, but several off the things you mentioned do not necessarily provide souls to the Great Lord, only are said to strip the soul from a living person. We'll cover each mentioned in turn.

 

1. Shadar Logoth - Mashadar consumes the soul and makes it part of itself. Those that die as a result of it's touch do not go to the Great Lord, instead are consumed by Mashadar (i.e. not subject to re-birth or transmigration). Since Mashadar was created (2000 years ago), people have avoided the area and so have Shadowspawn which means that if we look at events in the book we have, Mashadar has consumed many, many more Shadowspawn than servant of the Light.

 

2. Machin Shin - Who do we see using the Ways? The Light-side characters use it sparingly, and pretty much stop entirely after tSR. The Ogier stopped using them almost immediately after travelers started coming out soulless, so Machin Shin has killed thousands more Shadowspawn than it has Ogier or human.

 

3. Draghkar - Again it seems they consume the soul, not turn it to the Great Lord. So, once a Draghkar takes you, the soul is gone from the Wheel. That being said, since we see a limited number of draghkar in the series it would seem that it is harder to cultivate a crop of them than say a herd of trollocs, otherwise the Blight would have overrun the Borderlands in 1 or 2 generations. The only conclusion that we are left with is that the Shadow has a limited number of these beasts and uses them as specialized assassins not regular troops. Possibly because the Great Lord knows that if he employs draghkar then any kills it makes. he still wont get the soul of the target.

 

4. Myrdraal Swords - While they use human souls during the forging, they do not reap the soul from the person killed with the blade.

 

5. Mind Traps - They are a very specialized form of control. We are not given the details of what goes on when a mind trap is being mad, but it seems that the only soul involved is the one of the person being trapped, and we are told that the Mind Trap Procees can only take place at Shayol Ghul. Kinda hard to march the entire population of any country (even Mayene) through SG in order to mind trap each citizen.

 

6. Dying in TAR - As far as we know (have proof on) the only souls that die forever in TAR are wolves. No evidence that TAR is a bar to any human souls, as a matter of fact, when SH is talking to Osan'gar and Aran'gar about Rahvin at the begining of LoC, Shadar Haran only mentions balefire as the reason Rahvin can't be transmigrated, no reference at all to the fact that not only was Rahvin bf'ed out of existence, but that he was also in TAR in the flesh. SH only mentions that at least they are not like Rahvin whose soul was "outside of time" presumably referring to balefire causing a 'reversal of time for the individual bf'ed'.

 

I just wanted to note that the things that can destroy souls have been much more effective against the Shadow than they have as far as destroying the souls of those supporting the Light. But I agree that Ishy does have a point, after all from his PoV, even if the Light wins 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 well....that still leaves that 1 out of 1,000,000 when the Great Lord will break free and crush the Wheel in his grip, breaking Time and the Wheel forever.

 

But the wheel is ever turning. Even if it loses just one soul, destroyed forever, in each turning, given a long enough period of time there will eventually be no one left. In which case Ishmael was right, because if the Pattern is going to lose souls every time the Wheel turns there is no way the Light can hold out indefinitely.

[Darth Krewl]

I'm not sure, but the way I understand it is:

 

They are erased from the pattern. They will not be reborn in any of the remaining ages of that turning. Remember, there are 7 ages in each turning. Balefire pulls them out of the pattern. But once the 7th age ends, a new pattern starts to be spun with a new rotation of the wheel. Those "souls" are re-created anew.

 

Okay, I can totally see this. Thanks for the explanation. And there's also this...

 

When I was younger, I studied Buddhism for a while, with an uncle of a cousin of mine who was an initiated monk. I asked him that, if souls are recycled (spun back by the Pattern, in WoT jargon), then why does the number of the people in the world increase, since by Buddhist logic, the number of souls should be the same all the time. Or, at least, that's how I saw it.

 

What he told me was a lengthy explanation that basically amounts to the need for natural balance that the universe has. And, since the universe is still expanding and souls are basically energy, then it would be natural that new souls would be created. Hence, what is know in spiritual circles as old and young souls. Because some have been through many more lifetimes than others.

 

Now, this explanation is very simple; a recap of what I was told by that Buddhist monk, of course, and can be accepted or discarded, depending on a person's own spiritual beliefs. But, for the sake of the WoT universe, I do think something like this could be fitting.

 

The Creator (as his name clearly would imply) keeps creating new worlds, universes, etc. and would need to create new souls or recreate existing souls anew, yep. In which case, IMO, the Light would never run out of souls...unless the Dark One were to break free and reshape all that the Creator's made, in his own image, as he seeks.

 

Because depending on the amount of balefire used, what the victim of BF did was undone, look at the end of FoH. Rahvin killed Mat, Asmodean, Avi, and Sulin. Rand fights Rahvin and gives him a large dose of the BF. Those four people are no longer dead because Rahvin's actions were erased back to a certain point in time. So those four never did die, and the actions Rand did because of it never happened either. Al they have to go on was memory of what they thought happened. Asmo was thinking about how some of the Aiel said they saw him dead, but it turns out he wasn't.

 

Now put that on a larger scale. For a city to be destroyed with BF a lot of the OP would have to be used which could turn back the Wheel days, weeks, even months. So that city which was destroyed probably produced and exported goods up to before it was BFed. Those goods were never exported even though merchants remember receiving them. If an army was dispatched to fight a force of Trollocs, and suceeded, but the people who signed the order were in the city when it was BFed the orders were never signed and the force wasn't dispatched, meaning not only were the Trollocs not stopped but the army never left, so they would have been BFed also.

 

And that is just two examples of large scale BFing. I was wondering why there wasn't a pattern wide backlash after Rand BFed Grendal's palace with the CK because that should have sent the inhabitants threads back weeks or months. And after reading ToM I'm thinking their might have been some consequences after all.

 

Okay, so this would be akin to resetting or rebooting the program in the Matrix, I guess, right? At least, that's what I get from your explanation and it also makes a lot of sense.

 

Because, like this, even with souls being recreated/sent back in a different way and age, all that was built within the fabric of reality would become a tangled mess, since all actions of b'fired individuals would be erased.

 

Very good explanation. Thanks!

[OptimusPrime]

I dont think its a questioon of how long it would take, but WHAT would it take. There are simply too many ways for the Wheel to bring new souls into existence. There will always be enough souls. Pregnancies would likely produce twins and triplets more often, a sign of the Wheel finding a way for new souls to be born. Even the balefired return after a time; imagine Rands soul was balefired, but returned after X ammount of time. Then imagine a female channeler that over the years became bound to the Wheel through sacrifice-Moiraine? Imagine both their souls got balefired. Still they would return with time. If new people were not traditionally born at the right time, their souls would inevitably stand around in T'A'R waiting for some opporttunty to reinsert. Along comes someone who can channel, be they Light or Dark, inevitably something would happen for Reborn Rand/whichever channeler or Moiraine/reborn channeler to get back into the waking world without being born into it, just like Birgitte this time round. Rand and Moiraine or whoever, could be Ilyena and/or and/Aviendha or and/Elayne, would inevitably have lots of children and have grandchildren, reborn souls brought back into the system.

 

I think its too easy for the Pattern to reinsert souls one way or another. Its not how long it would take to run out, its that the Wheels governing of existence would have to end entirely.

[Awakened]

There are simply too many ways for the Wheel to bring new souls into existence.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been any mention of creating new souls. All we ever hear of are souls being destroyed, from Hopper to who ever gets smelted into a Myrdraal's sword. I don't think we have heard of a single mention of a new soul.

[mb]

Dying in TAR - As far as we know (have proof on) the only souls that die forever in TAR are wolves.

I guess it is any there in the flesh, not just wolves.

Do not have a source.