Why has no one thought of this?

[Canis Rufus]

Canis, why is it so very hard for you to understand that there's no loss of energy in this.

 

Malruhn, (first your reply starts off a bit rude here I’ll show you) why is it so very hard for you to understand that there must be a loss of energy it’s a law of physics. (Comes off a bit narcissistic doesn’t it? Thought you might like to know.)

 

Now,

 

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view and I warrant that this is how you perceive it. My argument is based that the basic laws of physics would apply to this world as well. Barring that then I would agree however, if we do in fact make the simple assumption that the basic laws of physics are in place then no your postulation would not work to eradicate the spent energy. Perhaps if you would care to look back over all the post we could discuss this more, (I fear I’ll just be repeating myself and citing previously cited laws of physics.) I can warrant you may be unfamiliar with some of the terms but it may help if you looked them up to grasp it better as my explanations were quick and may not have been good enough for you see what I was pointing out.

 

However, to bring it back full circle my case is that the AS are over powered as they “they can destroy friction, time and even create energy.” Your Mexican standoff idea is clever and I think you’ll see if you look into it would create a huge problem with spent/unspent energy, but it does a nice job of proving they can destroy time.

[jmikea]

Canis, why is it so very hard for you to understand that there's no loss of energy in this.

 

Malruhn, (first your reply starts off a bit rude here I’ll show you) why is it so very hard for you to understand that there must be a loss of energy it’s a law of physics. (Comes off a bit narcissistic doesn’t it? Thought you might like to know.)

 

Now,

 

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view and I warrant that this is how you perceive it. My argument is based that the basic laws of physics would apply to this world as well. Barring that then I would agree however, if we do in fact make the simple assumption that the basic laws of physics are in place then no your postulation would not work to eradicate the spent energy. Perhaps if you would care to look back over all the post we could discuss this more, (I fear I’ll just be repeating myself and citing previously cited laws of physics.) I can warrant you may be unfamiliar with some of the terms but it may help if you looked them up to grasp it better as my explanations were quick and may not have been good enough for you see what I was pointing out.

 

However, to bring it back full circle my case is that the AS are over powered as they “they can destroy friction, time and even create energy.” Your Mexican standoff idea is clever and I think you’ll see if you look into it would create a huge problem with spent/unspent energy, but it does a nice job of proving they can destroy time.

 

We're talking about a world that some guy made up in his head, complete with magic, alternate realities, and its own built-in dream world full of contradictions to the first world's laws. Your position is apparently that Aes Sedai are too powerful for your liking because they can break the physical laws of the world you live in. I have to ask, are you sure fantasy stories are your thing? You're not one of those guys who reads The Hobbit and gets offended when Gollum isn't blind after turning invisible, are you?

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Dude, the One Power is SUPPOSED to be overpowered! This was used by the AoL Aes Sedai to BREAK THE WORLD! That a relatively primitive culture has had trouble coming up with ways to fully utilize it should be no surprise-just look at how long it took the people of this age to come up with ways to use gunpowder. The Chinese had firecrackers but nothing else for quite a while, then fireworks rockets. Long after that, war rockets and bombs were invented (the "arrows of flying fire"). The Europeans adopted gunpowder but made very little use of it for rocketry, instead inventing guns (how had the Chinese missed that idea? It's not as obvious at it appears to us who grew up knowing about them.) In turn, practical uses of gunnery took centuries to be worked out, while in the mean time people were trying ridiculous tactics like exchanging volleys in the open field. The OP is meant to have a lot of the potential we're seeing, but it's actually more realistic that the characters are generally missing this. Will such tricks be discovered in the Fourth Age? Will channeling itself die out (too much collaring, maybe?) Will something else entirely happen? RAFO .

[dovien]

You're not one of those guys who reads The Hobbit and gets offended when Gollum isn't blind after turning invisible, are you?

Wow.

[Canis Rufus]

Canis, why is it so very hard for you to understand that there's no loss of energy in this.

 

Malruhn, (first your reply starts off a bit rude here I’ll show you) why is it so very hard for you to understand that there must be a loss of energy it’s a law of physics. (Comes off a bit narcissistic doesn’t it? Thought you might like to know.)

 

Now,

 

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view and I warrant that this is how you perceive it. My argument is based that the basic laws of physics would apply to this world as well. Barring that then I would agree however, if we do in fact make the simple assumption that the basic laws of physics are in place then no your postulation would not work to eradicate the spent energy. Perhaps if you would care to look back over all the post we could discuss this more, (I fear I’ll just be repeating myself and citing previously cited laws of physics.) I can warrant you may be unfamiliar with some of the terms but it may help if you looked them up to grasp it better as my explanations were quick and may not have been good enough for you see what I was pointing out.

 

However, to bring it back full circle my case is that the AS are over powered as they “they can destroy friction, time and even create energy.” Your Mexican standoff idea is clever and I think you’ll see if you look into it would create a huge problem with spent/unspent energy, but it does a nice job of proving they can destroy time.

 

We're talking about a world that some guy made up in his head, complete with magic, alternate realities, and its own built-in dream world full of contradictions to the first world's laws. Your position is apparently that Aes Sedai are too powerful for your liking because they can break the physical laws of the world you live in. I have to ask, are you sure fantasy stories are your thing? You're not one of those guys who reads The Hobbit and gets offended when Gollum isn't blind after turning invisible, are you?

 

 

Wow indeed. I was postulating the idea as it was an interesting concept to discuss. However, it has been made apparent to me that some less than friendly people seem to like to try to bully people on these threads, when either they do not understand the conversation or negated to read the whole thread before commenting. Suffice to say I truly care not a wit about the actual physics of the book as by all similar standards they are broken. I was however pointing out the pure silliness at which the world is designed. As I have said (had you bothered to look) I enjoy the books, they are among my favorite “Brain Candy” reading. Perhaps in the future you could do with less ASSumptions’ about someone and attempt to participate in a genial conversation for the sake of enjoyment. If you are unable to do that I would ask that you keep your ASSumptions’ about people you don’t know to yourself. Perhaps this can be learned with maturity something lacking from comments such as this.

[Canis Rufus]

Dude, the One Power is SUPPOSED to be overpowered! This was used by the AoL Aes Sedai to BREAK THE WORLD! That a relatively primitive culture has had trouble coming up with ways to fully utilize it should be no surprise-just look at how long it took the people of this age to come up with ways to use gunpowder. The Chinese had firecrackers but nothing else for quite a while, then fireworks rockets. Long after that, war rockets and bombs were invented (the "arrows of flying fire"). The Europeans adopted gunpowder but made very little use of it for rocketry, instead inventing guns (how had the Chinese missed that idea? It's not as obvious at it appears to us who grew up knowing about them.) In turn, practical uses of gunnery took centuries to be worked out, while in the mean time people were trying ridiculous tactics like exchanging volleys in the open field. The OP is meant to have a lot of the potential we're seeing, but it's actually more realistic that the characters are generally missing this. Will such tricks be discovered in the Fourth Age? Will channeling itself die out (too much collaring, maybe?) Will something else entirely happen? RAFO .

 

 

I thought about this during Perrin’s chapter where he was in the wolf dream and was told about the sky scrapers and such. It would seem to imply that there is the potential that the OP will be dissolved all together. That would clean a lot of messes up neatly.

[jmikea]

Canis, why is it so very hard for you to understand that there's no loss of energy in this.

 

Malruhn, (first your reply starts off a bit rude here I’ll show you) why is it so very hard for you to understand that there must be a loss of energy it’s a law of physics. (Comes off a bit narcissistic doesn’t it? Thought you might like to know.)

 

Now,

 

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your point of view and I warrant that this is how you perceive it. My argument is based that the basic laws of physics would apply to this world as well. Barring that then I would agree however, if we do in fact make the simple assumption that the basic laws of physics are in place then no your postulation would not work to eradicate the spent energy. Perhaps if you would care to look back over all the post we could discuss this more, (I fear I’ll just be repeating myself and citing previously cited laws of physics.) I can warrant you may be unfamiliar with some of the terms but it may help if you looked them up to grasp it better as my explanations were quick and may not have been good enough for you see what I was pointing out.

 

However, to bring it back full circle my case is that the AS are over powered as they “they can destroy friction, time and even create energy.” Your Mexican standoff idea is clever and I think you’ll see if you look into it would create a huge problem with spent/unspent energy, but it does a nice job of proving they can destroy time.

 

We're talking about a world that some guy made up in his head, complete with magic, alternate realities, and its own built-in dream world full of contradictions to the first world's laws. Your position is apparently that Aes Sedai are too powerful for your liking because they can break the physical laws of the world you live in. I have to ask, are you sure fantasy stories are your thing? You're not one of those guys who reads The Hobbit and gets offended when Gollum isn't blind after turning invisible, are you?

 

 

Wow indeed. I was postulating the idea as it was an interesting concept to discuss. However, it has been made apparent to me that some less than friendly people seem to like to try to bully people on these threads, when either they do not understand the conversation or negated to read the whole thread before commenting. Suffice to say I truly care not a wit about the actual physics of the book as by all similar standards they are broken. I was however pointing out the pure silliness at which the world is designed. As I have said (had you bothered to look) I enjoy the books, they are among my favorite “Brain Candy” reading. Perhaps in the future you could do with less ASSumptions’ about someone and attempt to participate in a genial conversation for the sake of enjoyment. If you are unable to do that I would ask that you keep your ASSumptions’ about people you don’t know to yourself. Perhaps this can be learned with maturity something lacking from comments such as this.

 

I meant it to be tongue in cheek but it obviously came out way, way wrong. I publicly apologize and humbly accept my verbal butt-whipping.

 

My actual intent was just to point out the futility of applying physics to a world that includes magic. I will work on my delivery. But in another thread; I'm bowing out of this one.

[asha man]

Okay, I guess now that I think about it, the most obvious missues, or lack of use, of the one power has to do with Healing, or the opposite of it.

 

If Aes'sedai can Heal, use the power on microscopic levels to draw out poisons, germs, bacteria, illnesses, whatever, like micro surgions, and do it in a matter of seconds, then why don't they simply use the same power, or combination of powers, to go in microscopicaly and screw things around: move this here, that there, twist that, pinch that off, and bada bing bada boom, you've got a dead or dying enemy in a matter of seconds, and no mess to clean up, no fire damage to trees, fields, or houses, no bits and pieces of bodies littering the place, and no screwing with the pattern.

 

This was actually mentioned at some point during the hunt for the black ajah. Apparently killing someone outright with the power in such a way is dependent on the channeler's ability with Healing. As I recall only one of the 13 BA they were hunting had enough Talent with Healing to kill people that way. It seems like there's a relatively small number of channelers who are any good at Healing, so it's probably not that well known that you can kill a person this way (especially with the three oaths stopping people from trying and the Yellow Ajah's general feelings about how the Power should be used).

(Sorry, I don't recall which book this was in off hand.)

 

As far as a channeler not using their brain when it comes to using the OP, how about when Egwene kept b****ing about how her stool was going to collapse? One tiny flow of Air in the morning, tie it off, and get on with your life. And she's going to be the best Amyrlin in the past 1000 years? No wonder the AS have fallen so far.

[asha man]

Also, cuendillar armor. You could make it out of a very light metal mesh (maybe like the gold cloth that Rand made with the OP when Egwene and Elayne were trying to teach him about channeling). Then you have a light weight set of armor that's completely impervious to normal attacks and any of the more obvious OP attacks. Hell, a large cuendillar shield could stop balefire.

[moratcorlm]

That's where warhammers come back into play. Useful against swords, yes, but it will do nothing to prevent blunt force trauma.

This was actually mentioned at some point during the hunt for the black ajah. Apparently killing someone outright with the power in such a way is dependent on the channeler's ability with Healing. As I recall only one of the 13 BA they were hunting had enough Talent with Healing to kill people that way.

Well, that's just... silly. Your point about how innovation and experimentation are taboo among Aes Sedai is well-taken, I guess; that's the only way that makes sense given the way the One Power works, and more importantly the way it doesn't. Chesmal might have thought herself exceedingly gifted to make the connection between healing wounds and causing wounds, and yes, a doctor might be able to kill more efficiently, but human bodies are extraordinarily frail things.

[asha man]

That's where warhammers come back into play. Useful against swords, yes, but it will do nothing to prevent blunt force trauma.

This was actually mentioned at some point during the hunt for the black ajah. Apparently killing someone outright with the power in such a way is dependent on the channeler's ability with Healing. As I recall only one of the 13 BA they were hunting had enough Talent with Healing to kill people that way.

Well, that's just... silly. Your point about how innovation and experimentation are taboo among Aes Sedai is well-taken, I guess; that's the only way that makes sense given the way the One Power works, and more importantly the way it doesn't. Chesmal might have thought herself exceedingly gifted to make the connection between healing wounds and causing wounds, and yes, a doctor might be able to kill more efficiently, but human bodies are extraordinarily frail things.

 

I think the idea is that only people Talented with Healing could use 'anti-healing weaves' to kill. I'm sure any channeler who knew more than average about anatomy could come up with lots of different ways to kill people without having any Talent for Healing at all.

[socom-delta]

So I'm reading ToM, and during the battles a thought came to me. Why not have your Aes Sedai or Asha'man open a gateway to a point high up in the air above your enemy? You could lean out and scout them, or drop fireballs from way out of long bow range.

 

For that matter, just randomly opening momentary gateways in the enemy's camp would probably slice up tons of enemy soldiers. Opening one in the enemy general's tent at night may decapitate their leadership. Opening one in the middle of a siege engine would reduce it to scrap.

 

Is everyone locked into a mental picture of gateways as a Traveling device? Davram Bashere was there when Rand first used Deathgates. You'd think he'd catch on.

 

 

why bother using gateways like that? Just make one gateway to where your enemy is - high in the air, as you say. Once you catch sight of the enemy officers, make a second gateway that separates their skull from their neck. once you do that, toss a bunch of fireballs to create chaos and make the enemy break.

 

gg

[Ananta]

So I'm reading ToM, and during the battles a thought came to me. Why not have your Aes Sedai or Asha'man open a gateway to a point high up in the air above your enemy? You could lean out and scout them, or drop fireballs from way out of long bow range.

 

For that matter, just randomly opening momentary gateways in the enemy's camp would probably slice up tons of enemy soldiers. Opening one in the enemy general's tent at night may decapitate their leadership. Opening one in the middle of a siege engine would reduce it to scrap.

 

Is everyone locked into a mental picture of gateways as a Traveling device? Davram Bashere was there when Rand first used Deathgates. You'd think he'd catch on.

 

 

why bother using gateways like that? Just make one gateway to where your enemy is - high in the air, as you say. Once you catch sight of the enemy officers, make a second gateway that separates their skull from their neck. once you do that, toss a bunch of fireballs to create chaos and make the enemy break.

 

gg

Or make a circle with Asha'man and Aes Sedai, then open a massive gateway horizontally in the middle of the army.

[socom-delta]

oh fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu---

[AquilaInfernus]

For those hooked on gateway deaths - rather obvious requirement to know the place you are gating from means pitched battles only, and I don't think trollocs or fades are so obliging... not to mention effective range to keep channelling players safe at the same time. One would recall that the deathgates weren't exactly the same as gateways, and thus probably use different mechanics (also it was LTT who wove those the first time round in the 3rd age)

 

For everyone discussing physics and chemistry. It's quite simply that the current channellers (with the exception of the Forsaken) are oblivious to the true nature of the world, and thus are limited in their ability to manipulate weaves to do different things (observe the healing example above). It is probably the case that a society that has been rebuilt from scratch three times in the last 3000 years, with its particular social norms, threats, and institutions will have prejudiced views on the way things can be used, not to mention the OP being exclusive to about 1% of the population, and diminishing.

 

Then there is the lack of knowledge as a result of so many apocalyptic events (Breaking, Trolloc Wars, 100 Years War).

 

It is apparent from the posts in this thread that everyone is thinking with prerequisite knowledge that characters in the book don't have, thus coming up with novel uses and methods not seen so far in the books.

[Ananta]

For those hooked on gateway deaths - rather obvious requirement to know the place you are gating from means pitched battles only, and I don't think trollocs or fades are so obliging... not to mention effective range to keep channelling players safe at the same time. One would recall that the deathgates weren't exactly the same as gateways, and thus probably use different mechanics (also it was LTT who wove those the first time round in the 3rd age)

 

 

 

IIRC, you need to know the place where you're gating from IF you want to arrive at the place where you're planning to go. But not knowing the place doesn't stop you from weaving the actual gate, just the location is messed up? (I think this way cause Aviendha managed to gate out from Rand but ended up at Seanchan)

 

So you could weave the gate in the middle of a battlefield, horizontally, so it takes out lots of enemies. You just can't use it to travel anywhere specific...

[AquilaInfernus]

IIRC, you need to know the place where you're gating from IF you want to arrive at the place where you're planning to go. But not knowing the place doesn't stop you from weaving the actual gate, just the location is messed up? (I think this way cause Aviendha managed to gate out from Rand but ended up at Seanchan)

 

So you could weave the gate in the middle of a battlefield, horizontally, so it takes out lots of enemies. You just can't use it to travel anywhere specific...

 

Actually, now I think about it, did Rand not use a trick whereby he 'hopped' a small distance before using a longer distance gateway to overcome this problem? Apparently you 'know' the place you travel to by virtue of traveling there... If I understand correctly, Aviendha used a variation on the gateway weave with Rand, which is why she has trouble with the normal one in Ebou Dar (the size is unusually restricted). In one of the early books, or New Spring, an Aes Sedai comments on the ability to tell who taught who certain common weaves because of specific hand movements, and the difficulties of relearning other methods. Look up Rand's Fisher King discussion...

 

I think size is the major problem, in an army of thousands, a gateway, even horizontal, is generally only big enough for a cart to pass though, thus you kill maybe 5-10 trollocs at a time. I believe fireballs, infinitely simpler, do this just as effectively. locking Aes Sedai and Asha'man in circles reduces their individual effectiveness (unless you want the strength of novices and dedicated without their inexperience). Remember the sum of circle power is less than the individual sums of individual channellers.

[Ananta]

Actually, now I think about it, did Rand not use a trick whereby he 'hopped' a small distance before using a longer distance gateway to overcome this problem? Apparently you 'know' the place you travel to by virtue of traveling there... If I understand correctly, Aviendha used a variation on the gateway weave with Rand, which is why she has trouble with the normal one in Ebou Dar (the size is unusually restricted). In one of the early books, or New Spring, an Aes Sedai comments on the ability to tell who taught who certain common weaves because of specific hand movements, and the difficulties of relearning other methods. Look up Rand's Fisher King discussion...

 

I think size is the major problem, in an army of thousands, a gateway, even horizontal, is generally only big enough for a cart to pass though, thus you kill maybe 5-10 trollocs at a time. I believe fireballs, infinitely simpler, do this just as effectively. locking Aes Sedai and Asha'man in circles reduces their individual effectiveness (unless you want the strength of novices and dedicated without their inexperience). Remember the sum of circle power is less than the individual sums of individual channellers.

 

 

I was thinking about the size. That size you talk of is made by 1 person. Some make as big as 2 vagons passing through at once if I remember correctly. That's alone.

 

How huge a gateway could full circle of Aes Sedai and Asha'man together make? It'd be absolutely massive...That enhanced with Aviendha's/Elayne's ability to make the gateways explode could be rather useful in battle.(Even if it was done by an accident, they know how it happened so they should be able to repeat the process xD )

[Exy]

(Even if it was done by an accident, they know how it happened so they should be able to repeat the process xD )

Not according to Aviendha. Elayne was pleased and thought she'd discovered a new weapon, but Aviendha told her the effects of letting go of a weave while it was half-untied were totally unpredictable.

 

Anyway, gateways woven even by Rand are small enough that I don't see a horizontal gateway used to slice an army in half would be all that effective. I don't know how big a gateway could be made by a mixed circle of, say, 13, but how much power would it yield relative to Rand on his own? Maybe three times as much? A gateway with three times the area would still be, what, 300 square feet or so? If they made it square, that's only like 17x17. I'm not sure how narrow a gateway can be -- if you could make it 300x1, that'd take out dozens of trollocs, but it's not clear that that's possible. If it's at all close to square, that's not as many as the members of the circle could deal with individually using fireballs.

[moratcorlm]

Anyway, gateways woven even by Rand are small enough that I don't see a horizontal gateway used to slice an army in half would be all that effective. I don't know how big a gateway could be made by a mixed circle of, say, 13, but how much power would it yield relative to Rand on his own? Maybe three times as much? A gateway with three times the area would still be, what, 300 square feet or so? If they made it square, that's only like 17x17. I'm not sure how narrow a gateway can be -- if you could make it 300x1, that'd take out dozens of trollocs, but it's not clear that that's possible. If it's at all close to square, that's not as many as the members of the circle could deal with individually using fireballs.

Here's one example of a female-only circle of thirteen (don't mixed circles produce larger ones?):

The light of saidar sprang up around the thirteen sisters near the Sitters, around all of them together, and a thick slash of silver appeared in the middle of the clearing, rotating into a gateway ten paces tall and a hundred wide.

Another:

The Windfinders gathered in a circle, doing whatever they had to do to link and taking their bloody time about it. Suddenly the vertical silver-blue slash of a gateway appeared, widening into an opening, five paces tall and covering the whole width of the cleared ground ["a smooth space a hundred paces wide"]

I don't see why you couldn't make that 9,000 (or 4,500, for the other) feet long and one foot high.

[Foamy The Master]

sorry if something similar was posted before this.

 

But say you set up a group of people (chanelers, archers ect) in a nice big clearing surrounded by woods.

Now you get the Channelers to weave a "net" of air and tie it between the trees. then make sure that the threads or watever of that "net" are razor sharp.

Wouldn't it work then when the enemy charge in and get cut to tiny lil pieces :)

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Why not just have channelers surround the said army and light fires in almosta complete circle as far as you can, then have the athan me're channel the winds to fan the fires towards the enemy, Would use a massive amount less energy.

[sfgiantsfanmike]

 

A) balefire to erase deeds

B) OP to create energy

 

On a mobile device so finding exact quotes can be a pain so I inserted the bullet points I wanted to talk about.

 

A) You must consider how a tineline in individuals worlds work before tackling this issue. In some fantasy worlds timelines are linear, as in you make a change in a time line it remains the same timeline just with different events taking shape. In these worlds your talk of balefiring (is that a proper verb? Ah well, I guess fantasy worlds get fantasy grammer) merely erasing deeds works.

 

I'll skip the other common one I've seen (changes create new timeline); what we have here in WoT is unique: it ISN'T linesr or any other I've seen, it's liken to weaving a tapestry. In short it's like this: let's say you're wearing a frayed coat and you have several loose threads. If one thread were to magically grab another thread and yank it out (essentially what balefire does) could you replace the thread by merely yanking out the other thread? No, your coat would just be missing two threads.

 

Is that a 100% parable of WoT? No, but it's how I see it.

 

B) I think you touched on it in your posts but wanted it to be clear. In using the source to create fire or lightning (or other works of the OP) you're not creating energy any more than you're ceeating energy by rubbing to sticks together to create fire. Sure, fire contains energy but that energy is tranferred from the rubbing. I only have a basic HS chem knowledge working for me so you could probably expound on that more and better than I have but I believe I have the basics of it, no?

 

Not trying to belabor that point, as I agree that if the channlers had more imaginatio and knowledge of how the world works we'd be seeing much more carnage on the battle fields.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Actually the most advanced use is probably Asmodean's, with his garrote of Air in Rhuidean. Honestly, often the problem with these channelers isn't that they think too small but that they don't think small enough, don't think just how fragile a human – or Trolloc – body actually is, and how little an alteration it takes to render it nonfunctional.

 

I agree with this, Remember that very few of the Aes Sedia have the ability to create a gateway, and I'm sure that problem exists in the Ashaman camp as well. If this is indicitive of the Power needed to create one, surely it would be logistically better to rain fiery death upon the enemy, which uses far less Power, or with the Garrote of Air, a single thread of Air spread as far as you can and tied off (at about chest height) and let the enemy rush straight into it

[CTM]

I always wanted to see someone chop down the white tower with gateways. The one power would work great in indirect warfare.