What would you change if you were writing WoT?

[Talmanes]

Wouldn´t change a goddamn thing.

 

Things like Elaynes politicking/general uppityness, Egwene turning into Aes Sedai, Gawyn being a whiny emo whose only purpose in life is to be someones dog and the Malden storyline dragging out over several books were/are really annoying BUT i still wouldn´t remove them. Frankly, people whining about how they would of done better is disrespectful and stupid.

Lol I've said the same many times, I honestly wouldn't change it either, it's just a discussion on what we think would be cool to happen. Everyone has their own opinion on everything.

 

And lmao! Heck yes more Bela!

[Arath Faringal]

The biggest thing I'd change is the way the Cleansing was done. A half dozen forsaken running around the hilltop, Travelling from spot to spot in a panic? It always seemed pretty poorly done to me. And now in light of the latest book ... unless the DO didn't care at all if Rand cleansed the source the shadow response makes absolutely no sense.

[Sid]

The biggest thing I'd change is the way the Cleansing was done. A half dozen forsaken running around the hilltop, Travelling from spot to spot in a panic? It always seemed pretty poorly done to me. And now in light of the latest book ... unless the DO didn't care at all if Rand cleansed the source the shadow response makes absolutely no sense.

To be honest, until Cadsuane showed up Rand was planning on just cleansing linked with Nyneave with a grand total of Lan, Alivia, and Min to guard them. The Forsaken thought he was traveling with very few companions (which he was until that very day), so they certainly didn't expect to be up against a coordinated defense including several circles, a paralis-net to detect channeling, and someone else wielding Callandor in a circle when they felt the enormous channeling. They were basically ordered to drop everything, Travel there, and stop it since they didn't know when or where it was going to be. It seemed perfectly in line with how the Forsaken have acted thus far.

 

It's another one of those things, had Alanna not bonded him for whatever reason she did, then there would have been no way for Cadsuane to find Rand, get him out of prison, and save his life at the Cleansing. So many major events are affected by past events, both major and minor, that changing anything in the story would ultimately mean victory for the shadow.

Of anything I might alter though is having Perrin not moping about leadership for so long. It just got tiring.

[Adamdidit]

Instead of saying more deaths would be needed, I'm going to go sort of opposite. Obviously, RJ had a plan in place for all the major characters. So we simply need extra major and important 2nd tier characters, so that THEY can die. I would've made a point of introducing all the 2nd tier characters quicker and gave them larger roles so their deaths seemed more important.

-Imagine the extra impact if we'd gotten a few POVs from Verin in the first 3-4 books.

-Imagine if Moiraine had had a second Aes Sedai with her who was a part fo thigns for a few books, then was killed.

-A 4th Two Rivers boy who gets killed during the battle at the end of EOTW.

-More screen time for Nealsean, Nicola, or Eben

 

If your style is going to involve a ton of people making it all the way through, you need to add some fat in the beginning to keep suspense alive.

[T00thbrush]

Woah, now that's a unique point of view. I definitely think the series is already more than long enough and convoluted enough that I'd rather not add ANY characters (actually, I'm sure we could even do away with quite a few secondary characters, including bunches of Aes Sedais - that just about no one can keep track of from volume to volume - or Valan Luca and his mob - barely remembered by now). It sounds to me as if you just couldn't bear having characters you've gotten to know and love killed off, hence creating new disposable ones - although by the time you get to know THOSE, you might not want them dead either! Which of course it the big problem of the "more deaths!" idea

 

As far as main charas are concerned, wouldn't mind killing off Elayne. Not just because I dislike her, but because her death would make sense (the girl insists on rushing into danger with NO plans or back up whatsoever, god knows how she keeps making it out of there alive) and would have a major impact on the plot (as in Andor left in turmoil without the legitimate Queen, Rand crushed by the loss, Birgitte in a Mad Warder spree...).

 

As far as emotional pull is concerned, killing off Nynaeve would probably work. She's the "big sister" and she would sacrifice herself in a split second to save any of the kids, or Lan. Her death would definitely have a major emotional impact on many main characters (as well as on me ). It'd be quite a twist too if Nyn was to die, not Lan.

[Mr Ares]

*Glares at Toothbrush and waffle and decides to bide time*

...

*Kneecaps waffle and Toothbrush*

Say what now?

People make jokes about that horse, I kneecap them. It's a running gag (although I've not had cause to do it in a while). Speaking of which:

 

 

And lmao! Heck yes more Bela!

*Kneecaps Talmanes*

 

 

Instead of saying more deaths would be needed, I'm going to go sort of opposite. Obviously, RJ had a plan in place for all the major characters. So we simply need extra major and important 2nd tier characters, so that THEY can die. I would've made a point of introducing all the 2nd tier characters quicker and gave them larger roles so their deaths seemed more important.

-Imagine the extra impact if we'd gotten a few POVs from Verin in the first 3-4 books.

-Imagine if Moiraine had had a second Aes Sedai with her who was a part fo thigns for a few books, then was killed.

-A 4th Two Rivers boy who gets killed during the battle at the end of EOTW.

-More screen time for Nealsean, Nicola, or Eben

 

If your style is going to involve a ton of people making it all the way through, you need to add some fat in the beginning to keep suspense alive.

I think the problem with your Verin one is that if you don't want to reveal her being BA that early, you have to write around it in her PoVs. That gets harder the more of them there are. As for another TR lad to get killed at the climax to the first book, that could have made for something more satisfying than Aginor overdrawing on the Power - he could have served as a distraction, and then Rand kills Aginor. Of course, you would only need a couple of major character deaths to really sell things, so while it would necessitate changes it wouldn't require that many.

[OptimusPrime]

As far as emotional pull is concerned, killing off Nynaeve would probably work. She's the "big sister" and she would sacrifice herself in a split second to save any of the kids, or Lan. Her death would definitely have a major emotional impact on many main characters (as well as on me ). It'd be quite a twist too if Nyn was to die, not Lan.

 

I agree that Nynaeves death would be a huge emotional event for most characters. I doubt I would carry on reading to be honest. Rand, fair enough, I WANT him to die, but return. And chances are that if he did die and come back, he very well might die again but NOT come back. But if I could save one character and one character only it would definitely be Nynaeve, and if I could save a single couple, it would be her and Lan. Lans death would be almost as bad but in a way it has been what he wanted for his entire involvement, at least in the ealry books. His survival would be as much a relief as Rands in some ways, for me at least.

 

I wouldnt have had Verin as Black Ajah. I would have it so she had removed the Oaths and make the Blacks THINK she was one of them, possibly even fool one of the Forsaken like Mesaana. Then again, if Verin could fool Mesaana why not just kill her? I just think the revelation of her being Black, while definitely having foreshadowing, wasnt quite as satisfying for me as it could have been. The impact it has was alright, but to me it felt very rushed due to unavoidable RL circumstances. But seeing as we're saying what we would change, I would have her involvement with the Blacks be a bit more central to the plot, rather than being involved in Egwenes rise in power, which I HATE. Egwene isnt even Ta'veren, but I think her rise FEELS like a Ta'veren thing. If I had my way either Egwene wouldnt rise and the White Tower would literally be SHATTERED by the Blacks, or Siuan would have a small PoV around the Salidar focus where she sees that Egwene is a weak Ta'veren. And Egwene would stop trying to be Rands female counterpart.

[Darth Krewl]

Okay, well I guess the first thing would be to establish which characters are protagonists and which characters are secondary, to see how much of an impact their deaths would have. IMO, Killing off secondary characters wouldn't have as much of an impact as killing off main characters (especially when you don't see it coming).

 

Secondly, if you're gonna kill someone off, you do it for the sake of the story. To move the plot along, to trigger some reaction from another character(s), to unleash a certain chain of events, etc. So, whomever's gone should be for good reason.

 

Thirdly, I wouldn't have a butchery, 'cause some times too much can be just as bad as too little. Though in TWoT's case, it's been more like a total drought in this sense, but you don't have to kill off many characters to improve the drama and sense of danger in the story. 2 or 3 would do, IMO.

 

That being said, I think the main characters that could go are Egwene, Lan and one of Rand's girls (either Elayne or Min). In addition to being a major blow to the Aes Sedai, Egwene's death would be a great statement to prove that, no matter how powerful, smart or ambitious, the girl was still over her head as Amyrlin.

 

IMO, Lan's death has been hinted at since the very beginning. The man's had a death wish all the time, it got worse when he lost his Aes Sedai, though he did survive it by marrying Nynaeve. But how much can he overcome w/o getting his wish? I say it'd be cool to see him go down in a blaze of glory that helps the good guys in the Last Battle.

 

Elayne for the reasons stated by Toothbrush. I agree 100%. But if it's not her, then Min's death would be a major blow, especially if the Shadow targets her for figuring out whatever Herid Fel found out, 'cause she'd be as dangerous as the "mad scientist" was and the Shadow simply can't afford Rand to get that knowledge.

 

Oh and Cadsuane, just for the sake of it. This one should end up in a Trolloc's belly ASAP!

[Dreamspike]

IMHO there are only 2 things I'd change if possible.

 

The first is how slowly some characters seem to change/mature while others are almost super matured like kids on soap operas...Egwene went to the waste and gained a lot of useful character, but should that immediately have given her the requisite skills to morph into the all time greatest Amyrlin ever? Then conversely, Perrin and Mat stay "i'm no bloody hero/lord" all the way up until its almost go-time at the last battle? I've very much enjoyed Rand's character's growth in both positive and negative directions, but Perrin's acceptance of his new role (while we all know he's a slow, deliberate thinker) was a long, exhausting, arduous process for me.

 

Sorry everyone, while the majority seem to think Mat's character perfect, I find his character can be as tiring as the others at times in his lack of growth. Egwene is now the ultimate Aes Sedai (super growth); Mat is married but endearingly leers at ladies "for his friends"(non-growth b/c he wont acccept he's seen as a lord); Elayne is a somewhat haughty, stupidly courageous royal who has ridiculous mood swings and don't get me started about Nynaeve and her obstinate braid-tugging, my-way is the only way attitude(thank GOODNESS she's stopped that when forced to co-operate with the all-hated Cadsuane and lately she's showing a lot of new depth/growth).

 

The second thing I'd change relates to how I find the main characters defining traits over-emphasized to the point of making them seem somewhat one-dimensional, and I think that's the reason why I consider Randland more juvenile than other series such as ASoIaF, and is my major source of annoyance for me. I'm sort of glad to learn Mat hasn't changed much since his marriage to Tuon, but man, you don't have to explain how he rationalizes his continued appreciation for a pretty serving girl at an inn every time he sees one! I get it!

 

Regardless, I'm addicted to the series and have been reading since I was 16. I love the characters and love to get irritated with them too. The main characters can all be as unrealistic/fantastic in their own way as the author wants!

[Talmanes]

Maybe Rand will ride Bela to the Last Battle. Bela never says die!

Now that, is what I call an epic ending!

[T00thbrush]

As far as emotional pull is concerned, killing off Nynaeve would probably work. She's the "big sister" and she would sacrifice herself in a split second to save any of the kids, or Lan. Her death would definitely have a major emotional impact on many main characters (as well as on me ). It'd be quite a twist too if Nyn was to die, not Lan.

 

I agree that Nynaeves death would be a huge emotional event for most characters. I doubt I would carry on reading to be honest. [...]

I wouldnt have had Verin as Black Ajah. I would have it so she had removed the Oaths and make the Blacks THINK she was one of them, possibly even fool one of the Forsaken like Mesaana.

 

I'd carry on reading, but I'd be devastated. Basically, it would be Moiraine all over again. I loved Moiraine's character and was sad to see her go, but at the same time FoH is just about my favorite book in the series for that reason. It was just a magnificent, epic death/climax that did justice to the character. Actually, maybe the issue in killing off Nyn would be that it'd be too much like Moiraine (woman who is older than the kids and protective of them sacrifices her life, altho of course Nyn would do it just for the kids, whereas Moiraine is thinking a lot more in terms of fate of the world).

 

I love Verin as BA and wouldn't change that. It fits in very well with her "weird" character (I mean who else but Verin would become BA just so she can study them!) and is the only believable way she could get a reasonable amount of reliable info on them. It paints her character in more shades of grey than simply faking being BA completely.

 

 

Thirdly, I wouldn't have a butchery, 'cause some times too much can be just as bad as too little. Though in TWoT's case, it's been more like a total drought in this sense, but you don't have to kill off many characters to improve the drama and sense of danger in the story. 2 or 3 would do, IMO.

 

That being said, I think the main characters that could go are Egwene, Lan and one of Rand's girls (either Elayne or Min). In addition to being a major blow to the Aes Sedai, Egwene's death would be a great statement to prove that, no matter how powerful, smart or ambitious, the girl was still over her head as Amyrlin.

 

IMO, Lan's death has been hinted at since the very beginning. The man's had a death wish all the time, it got worse when he lost his Aes Sedai, though he did survive it by marrying Nynaeve. But how much can he overcome w/o getting his wish? I say it'd be cool to see him go down in a blaze of glory that helps the good guys in the Last Battle.

 

Elayne for the reasons stated by Toothbrush. I agree 100%. But if it's not her, then Min's death would be a major blow, especially if the Shadow targets her for figuring out whatever Herid Fel found out, 'cause she'd be as dangerous as the "mad scientist" was and the Shadow simply can't afford Rand to get that knowledge.

 

Oh and Cadsuane, just for the sake of it. This one should end up in a Trolloc's belly ASAP!

 

I wouldn't want a butchery either - it it's butchery, deaths just lose their impact and signifiance as far as I'm concerned. And may get very frustrating for the reader as well. Egwene's would be an interesting death but I reckon it's just too much impact on the WT to lose yet another Amyrlin (we've already gone through Siuan and Elaida), I think she's needed where she is. Lan's death makes sense, but because of his death wish, I think even with him being universally loved, his death wouldn't have the same impact as that of a character who wants to live. Min's death would definitely be the more dangerous in terms of impact on Rand. Min has been is only solace and support for LONG periods of time. God knows what he'd do if he lost her! I mean I have a weak spot for Avi myself, but let's face it - Min is really number one as far as quality of relationship is concerned. She's consistently spent a lot more time with him than anyone else.

 

The death of one of the ta'verens would also be very big. We can't kill off the Dragon Reborn (or can we!?). I'd say probably Perrin (whom I love). He's discreet but steady and solid, he would fight to the end, and he would be sorely missed by many main characters and also probably seriously mourned by the people of the Two Rivers, Ghealdan and Mayene - I know those two have their own leaders, but Perrin's been overseeing the lot for a long time now, and doing a good job of it too despite his protestations. In that sense his death would be bigger than Mat's (whose only connection is the Band really), and many would feel bereft of their leader. Also, Faile's reaction could be interesting - she's also a leader, and must have a vengeful streak.

 

Oh. And... * Toothbrush tosses Cadsuane in a Trolloc's belly *

[username13]

Bela, displeased at Mr Ares's habit of kneecapping her followers, bites his nipple off...

[Darth Krewl]

I wouldn't want a butchery either - it it's butchery, deaths just lose their impact and signifiance as far as I'm concerned. And may get very frustrating for the reader as well. Egwene's would be an interesting death but I reckon it's just too much impact on the WT to lose yet another Amyrlin (we've already gone through Siuan and Elaida), I think she's needed where she is. Lan's death makes sense, but because of his death wish, I think even with him being universally loved, his death wouldn't have the same impact as that of a character who wants to live. Min's death would definitely be the more dangerous in terms of impact on Rand. Min has been is only solace and support for LONG periods of time. God knows what he'd do if he lost her! I mean I have a weak spot for Avi myself, but let's face it - Min is really number one as far as quality of relationship is concerned. She's consistently spent a lot more time with him than anyone else.

 

Well, in Egwene's case, the thinking here is that the White Tower is already crumbling (people are losing respect for the Aes Sedai, the Seanchan are a great threat that could raze it to the ground, etc.) so, Egwene's death could be the last straw that sends the Aes Sedai to Rand's side and perhaps finally get some unity between channelers going.

 

Lan makes a lot of sense, absolutely. Especially if his death helps the Light in some way, like him taking out some dangerous foe in the process, though he's no channeler.

 

Agreed on Min also. Elayne is disposable too, for the reasons you stated but, Aviendha perhaps not. Not because I like or dislike her personally, but because of how important she may be to the future of the Aiel as a Wise One and former Maiden of the Spear.

 

The death of one of the ta'verens would also be very big. We can't kill off the Dragon Reborn (or can we!?). I'd say probably Perrin (whom I love). He's discreet but steady and solid, he would fight to the end, and he would be sorely missed by many main characters and also probably seriously mourned by the people of the Two Rivers, Ghealdan and Mayene - I know those two have their own leaders, but Perrin's been overseeing the lot for a long time now, and doing a good job of it too despite his protestations. In that sense his death would be bigger than Mat's (whose only connection is the Band really), and many would feel bereft of their leader. Also, Faile's reaction could be interesting - she's also a leader, and must have a vengeful streak.

 

Oh. And... * Toothbrush tosses Cadsuane in a Trolloc's belly *

 

Perrin...hmm...I've always liked the big blacksmith too and after ToM, I came to like him even more. But, as far as the three Ta'veren go, he's the most expendable, I agree. The question here would be Min's viewing, where she sees him playing a key role for Rand in the Last Battle, so I don't think he's gone...unless it happens after he's done w/e he's supposed to do for Rand (when his arc would be complete and his death could trigger a reaction, such as the one you mention concerning Faile. Personally, I've always found her killing Masema in TGS disturbing. The girl does have a dark side...creepy!)

 

Thanks for tossing that old hag into the Trolloc's belly lol!

[T00thbrush]

.

[EvilSocrates]

I think the thing with no deaths is mostly because of RJ's writing style, and Brandon's as well. They both, though BS's writing moreso have a lot of upbeat tones to it. If it was slightly more dark, like the Malazan series, it would be a very different series.

I think a lot of the things most people complain about are things that, though seeming like a good idea to cut, would for the most part make the series not able to work as well.

 

Needless to say I totally agree with Perrin and Faile's superlong Aiel plot needing to have been shorter. I loved Perrin's plotline when he was in the Two Rivers, it was great. Then the next book he's nowhere to be found, although there was a reason for that too, and then we get nothing more but multiple book spanning same plot. I do definitely think Perrin redeems himself as of late, but it was still bad with the overextendedness.

 

I agree that the Forsaken were killed off too easy. I think that's one of the reasons the first few books had the best feel to them. Rand was going against an enemy he couldn't defeat, not for good anyway. The whole resurrection thing has become redundant.

 

I think that although in a way disappointing, it would be a much more moving end if in the last fight with the Dark One, Rand had to do something epic like use himself to seal the DO's prison for good, then die, then have the classic intro saying how there are no beginnings and endings, but have the wind blowing until it reaches a woman giving birth to a new child, a boy, and it says the child wasn't the begining, but it was a beginning. And BAM the cycle prepares to repeat itself.

 

False. Sanderson kills damn near everyone in some of his books. Rand definitely would not survive TG if he were writing the series according to his own lights. My guess is that most of the main characters would die horribly (but gloriously!). Perrin probably would survive though, being the whole leader of man type dude that he is, to rebuild.

[Talmanes]

Well I've never seen that though I haven't read the last two Mistborn or WoK but what I said still stands, I think that would be cool, and I think the whole feel of the wheel of time has been more upbeat since BS started writing it. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, it is just what I've noticed.

[Plato's Cave]

Writing wise, I'd get rid of the arbitrary prophecies, dreams and visions that move the plot along in the some way. It's just cheap storytelling, to be honest, Jordan just about manages to get away with it. For example, The Rand narrative in the Dragon Reborn, or Moraines death and the Tower of Ghengji stuff with Mat.

 

Characters - The Forsaken, I'd make them cooler, more effective and eviller. Living up to their mythical and hysterical reputation at least. They're supposed to be the most viciously cruel mass murderers and torturers ever, as well as having extreme power in the One Power, yet they were a bit of damp squib in these books. I would have liked to have seen them say, destroy an army by themselves - actually win a field battle - or comprehensively besting, humiliating and maybe even killing one or two of the good guys in a one power duel (Jesus, the deaths of Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, Lanfear etc were pretttttty lame) or commit an act of genocide comparable to one their acts in the War of Power. Just take Aginor, he had pretty interesting backstory, one of world's greatest scientists at the peak of known human history, one of the world's greatest channellers as well, completely amoral, creator of the Shadowspawn. He should have featured in books as a main antagonist! Instead he gets vaporised within five minutes of his appearance, then is reincarnated and made to spy on Rand, then gets vaporised again in a battle against a bunch of children. Asmodean was decent character though, who was moderately well developed, but had no balls for some reason, I wouldn't have expected him to be such a wimp, strength of character wise.

 

The Women - It's all been said a thousand times before, they are too nasty, prejudiced, stubborn, arrogant, sexless, vindictive, unsympathetic, abusive, uncooperative etc etc etc Robert Jordan must have been through some trauma in his personal life for sure.

[T00thbrush]

Writing wise, I'd get rid of the arbitrary prophecies, dreams and visions that move the plot along in the some way. It's just cheap storytelling, to be honest, Jordan just about manages to get away with it. For example, The Rand narrative in the Dragon Reborn, or Moraines death and the Tower of Ghengji stuff with Mat.

 

I think the prophecies/dreams/visions are quite interesting, they serve as guide to the main characters (frankly, Rand would have been lost if he didn't have the Karaethon Cycle to refer to and try to make sense of) and give clues to readers who are keen to try to decipher the future plotlines, which is good fun. Getting rid of prophecies/etc would actually probably be the most dramatic change that's been suggested so far, you'd have to rewrite the whole series I think

 

I'll admit I like the women as they are

[OptimusPrime]

*Glares at Toothbrush and waffleand decides to bide time*

Why would the Dark One have his chief scientist act as a spy among the Dragon Reborns recruits?

Because his scientific skills are useless in the era he finds himself in. He doesn't have the tools to make the tools to make the tools he'd need to continue his work from the AoL.

 

So he gives up on his career entirely? I just think it would have been more satisfying if the Dark One and Moridin had at least given Aginor some little side project experiment to try with the One Power. You know... "Wana earn True Power access again? Then find us a Wolfbrother to corrupt" and Elyas gets some more involvement around books 8-10.

 

We could even get a hint about something yet though. A passing thought of Moridin, stating that Aginor had come up with the Compulsion-Warder bond idea-this would maybe hint of Aginor having studied the Chosen Mark and exactly how Shadowspawn are forced to obey without the need of channeling, and Aginor having figured out it could be done by combining mild Compulsion with the "primitive" 3rd Agers Warder bonds. Even something as small as that would make up for it, because of the impact it has had.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Maybe Rand will ride Bela to the Last Battle. Bela never says die!

Now that, is what I call an epic ending!

Careful, pal, you're running out of kneecaps.

 

 

1. Cut down on cast of characters. Too many lose their relevance or have it greatly diminished as the story goes on. Massive as it is, the scope of the story isn't broad enough for all the secondary characters to be doing something the whole time. Hell, major characters have gone entire books without doing anything. I would consider Gawyn and Aviendha second-tier characters at worst, but neither of them has accomplished anything another character couldn't have done just as easily. Thom goes from being one of the original eight to being an adjunct; Lan disappears for a book and a half and then doesn't do anything until he raises the banner.

 

2. Pedron Niall decrees that traveling circuses bear the Dark One's blight. Carnage ensues.

 

3. The Forsaken actually do something other than die at convenient times. Yeah, I know, the Light is losing this battle right now, blah, blah, blah. That's only because they started out in such a big hole. The Light has been trending upward virtually the entire series, and the 13 Stooges are a big reason for that.

 

4. Moiraine translates the passage of the Prophecies of the Dragon that reads, "And yea, the large-nosed girl, the Huntress, blood of the broken crown must be vanquished lest the Dragon fail." Carnage ensues.

 

5. Books 8 through 10 are one book.

 

6. A horrific bubble of evil strikes every bath in Caemlyn's royal palace. Carnage ensues.

 

7. Romantic relationships have some basis in personality and reality, rather than simply saying, "I love you." "Wow, really? I love you too!" "OMG!" Cutting down the cast would help with this.

 

8. Coulin and Hammar remember their grade-A swords the day Siuan is deposed, and show a little more skill against a certain Youngling. Carnage ensues.

 

9. Ten percent of the series' profits would be directed to my bank account.

 

10. An anvil storm strikes just as the Correnne and a certain female child of just under ten celestial bodies is crossing the ocean. Carnage ensues.

[Ozzie_aiel]

More Bela, we all know she's the true hero of the series

 

I agree with the Forsaken, the most powerful, evil channellers known, and it seems that if Rand sneezes in their general direction, they fall down dead. Some were good, Ishy in the first three books, what with the flaming orifices and evil intent, who could only be killed coz Rand had Callandor in his hand. Simherage, who almost actually managed to capture Rand. Asmo, who aside from his complete lack of a spine turned out to be an interesting character.

 

More of Lans viewpoint, hes an awesome character, I'd like to know what he's thinking.

 

Perhaps making the Seanchan a tad more scary, the Ever-victorious Army being trounced by the Dragon Reborn and the Heros of the Horn, then The Dragon Reborn and an army of channellers, then Rodelle Ituralde and a basic army with neither channellers flying scouts or monsters. Their standards are definately skipping. Next they'll be massacred by a couple of farmers and their sheep!

[blazetheearth]

I understand too some extent why people are unhappy with how unbadass the Chosen/Forsaken are portrayed, but I think that most are over looking the "good" things the have done for the Shadow.

 

1. Aginor and Balthamel - well ... they had the misfortune of running into the Light's Champion almost as soon as they were free and died. We can assert that since they were so close to the surface of the seal that their bodies degraded while none of the other 10 had that happen. Maybe, because they were so close they didn't get into the full sleep and that their minds were a little unhinged by 3000 years that maybe they remember pieces of. I mean Ishy wasn't totally bound and we know how nutty he was.

 

2. Sammael - subjugated an entire nation - w/o compulsion on major political players (the Council of 8 [minus one for Lord Brend] does not show the remnants of compulsion that Morgause does) - why he didn't attack Tear while Rand was in the Waste, could be put down to building his power base w/o compulsion would take time - we know he was in Illian and was Lord Brend before Rand took Callandor, but it takes a couple of books before we see an Army of Illian. And his dispersal of the Shaido (Asmo's discarded tool). I agree he died pretty quick but I really did like that Rand planned out the attack specifically to neutralize the things that Sammael did to defend, and I liked that it was not Rand that killed him.

 

3. Moggy - I agree, that other than getting captured and aiding the Light she doesn't seem to do much, but she does take over the 13 BA that left the WT in tDR. Of those 13 we know the disposition of most but not all. Some kidnapped Elayne in tGS, which would have worked had Brigette not managed to get the Windfinders to attack, and since we see Brigette early on as working against Moggy in TAR, Brigette blunting the actions of Moggy's minions makes sense in the whole 'Turning of the Wheel' scheme. We still have some of those 13 wandering around unaccounted for, presumably still operating on the orders that Moggy had last given them when they were onscreen.

 

4. Semrihage - She was quite effective though I am not sure why she didn't Compel Toun, since she can hide her ability to channel and invert her weaves, other than to to say Compulsion was not her style, not in AoL and not since awakening. She didn't Compel Cabrianna Mercandes to tell her everything she knew. It was much more satisfying to her to break one to her will, not Compel them. She wanted to break Toun, not turn her. Perfectly within character and the only thing that kept this from happening is Mat spiriting Toun away. We'll skip the whole tGS scene that created Darth Rand, as to me everything she did was in character, including the talking about the DO giving Rand the TP. We saw that when her carefully constructed plan fall apart (the attempted capture of Rand) she doesn't react with quick thought, just action (i.e. the fireball that might have killed Rand).

 

5. Asmodean - Potentially one of the most successful Forsaken. The entire 'Shaido crossing the DW' plot can be laid at his feet. He gave Couladin the Dragons on his arms and much death and blood can be laid at the feet of the Shaido. Technically Faile capture can be laid at his and Sammael's feet. Again everything that he does is in character as we have seen it. He went to the Shadow originally because he saw no other option (clinging to that grass on the cliff edge), and begins teaching Rand for same reason.

 

6. Graendal - Again she is one of the more successful Chosen. She has really only made a few mistakes. Allowing Amsalam to escape her, and not Compeling Ituralde to obey her, not just the King's letters are a couple of her most glaring mistakes. Otherwise let's see, she disabled the entire nation of Shara and an entity that could work for the Light. Keeping Arad Doman on the brink of collapse for as long as she did, but not collapsing it entirely. I think all will agree keeping the balance of 'on the brink' would require a deft hand. She was never one for direct confrontation, and again we see another Forsaken preforming perfectly in character for what we know of her from AoL.

 

7. Rahvin - took the reins of a fairly rich and powerful nation by Compelling the Queen. He spent while exchanging the Lightfriends in the Queen's Guard with Darkfriends, and then began expanding his territory toward the east. Mat and the Band turned back these advances eventhough the QG had higher numbers. His biggest mistake was not having Gareth Bryne killed (but he did have himexiled and removed from post of CG of QG), but it's possible that since he was using a lighter form of Compulsion on Morgause (presumably took keep her mind intact, unlike the subjects of Graendal's Compulsion) and without making it a much heavier for he was unable to get around her love of Bryne, so instead he has Bryne exiled and stripped of power. He had no way of knowing that Suian and Co. would pick him up and give him an even larger army to command. All in all not bad, not destruction on a grand scale but definitely a step in the right direction. And considering Rand attack was a complete suprise, his defense was excellent as had Nyn w/ Moggy in tow via a'dam not showed up, he would have beaten Rand.

 

8. Messana - she broke the WT, not quite setting up schools for the Dark as she did before, but remember action was not her MO, administration was. She was administering the BA in the WT, through proxies. She had only been in position for a few months, less than a year according to timeline when she broke the Tower (from the end of TEoTW {when she was released} to the disposing of Suian).

Not bad for a years work.

 

9. Be'lal - had taken a position of power and began consolidating his power base - set a trap for Rand and was foiled by Moir. He was considered to combining the best traits of both Rahvin and Sammael, capable of careful thought as well as action. Known as the Netweaver, and it fits with what we know of what he did after awakening. He had no reason to expect Egwene's dreaming and her and Mat's neutralizing of both BA that he had as backup that might have stopped Moir. All of the Forsaken would have thought that Rand was traveling alone to Tear and had been for weeks, so Be'lal no reason to expect Moir and Co or Mat to show up. Again good plan, good execution, things outside his control or prediction caused the downfall.

 

10. Demandred - Hard to say what he's accomplished since we never see him in his selected position of power, instead only from his own PoV and that of the other Chosen. But we see no indication that the DO is unhappy with him, so it is safe to think that he's doing 'good' things for the Shadow.

 

11. Lanfear - Both successful and not. She did send the Supergirls to Tear to be the bait in Be'lal's trap. She was too wrapped up in her obsession with LTT, but again that is how we are to understand that she was in AoL. And when you think about the fact that for the rest of the world thinks of it as 3000 years have passes, for her she went to sleep and when she woke up the next day (for her) she finds Randland as we know it. The only remnant from her own life and the thing she clung to in the AoL was desire for LTT. Now she has a fresh start with LTT 2.0 and so we see 90% of her time and attention is devoted to the same goal she went to sleep with. Again makes sense. I think of her scene on the docks w/ Moir as sort of a PTSD/Psychotic/Obsessive berserker rage. To me she just snapped. Again looking at circumstances and character that all seems to make sense.

 

12. Ishy - I'm not even gonna go there. I agree he messed up time and time again. Personally, I think the only reason he is Nae'blis is because he is the only of the Chosen that doesn't want power or immortality, he shares the DO's own goals of breaking the Wheel and destroying the Pattern entirely. He just wants an end to it all.

 

 

Now that my defense of the Chosen is complete, I'll get back on topic. The thing's I'd change are pretty small, more of when I would had had things happen and who would have done them as opposed to not having things or character's included.

 

If anything I would have really like the series to be a bit longer, not cut out more things. I have really liked what was done with Ituralde's chapters (and I'm referring to his onscreen time in KoD and tGS, not any onscreen time that he might or might not have in ToM) and would have liked to see some of the secondary characters introduced earlier and given a full backstory treatment within the overall arc of the story. I would have liked to have seen more of Mat's flashbacks and speaking OT before he gained the other memories, and little things like that, but I wouldn't make any major changes at all.

 

On a side note: Back when I was reading LoC, I told a friend of mine (also a WOTHCFF, though neither of us was a registered one )that I believed that the series would total 13 books, mainly because of how prevalent the number 13 is through out the series, and how important to various concepts in the books. So, I found it really funny when I found out that RJ planned on 12 books and that it is gonna wind up being 14 books. Either way I was only off by one and that's not a bad guess when I was holding book 6 in my hand.

[username13]

9. Ten percent of the series' profits would be directed to my bank account.

 

Damn, I should have though of that.... then carnage could ensue

[Mr Ares]

Bela, displeased at Mr Ares's habit of kneecapping her followers, bites his nipple off...

As if a flesh wound like that is likely to stop me. *Kneecaps The Legacy*

 

 

*Glares at Toothbrush and waffleand decides to bide time*

Why would the Dark One have his chief scientist act as a spy among the Dragon Reborns recruits?

Because his scientific skills are useless in the era he finds himself in. He doesn't have the tools to make the tools to make the tools he'd need to continue his work from the AoL.

 

So he gives up on his career entirely? I just think it would have been more satisfying if the Dark One and Moridin had at least given Aginor some little side project experiment to try with the One Power. You know... "Wana earn True Power access again? Then find us a Wolfbrother to corrupt" and Elyas gets some more involvement around books 8-10.

 

We could even get a hint about something yet though. A passing thought of Moridin, stating that Aginor had come up with the Compulsion-Warder bond idea-this would maybe hint of Aginor having studied the Chosen Mark and exactly how Shadowspawn are forced to obey without the need of channeling, and Aginor having figured out it could be done by combining mild Compulsion with the "primitive" 3rd Agers Warder bonds. Even something as small as that would make up for it, because of the impact it has had.

I quite agree that Aginor/Osan'gar hasn't been particularly well served in terms of story, I was just pointing out that there is a fair reason why no use was made of his special skills.

 

 

5. Books 8 through 10 are one book.

I think it might make more sense to make 8-11 two books. After all, the Cleansing is a great point to end one of the books. Just trim CoT and stick the remaining material at the front of KoD.

 

More Bela, we all know she's the true hero of the series

Some people around here really don't like the ability to walk, do they?

[OptimusPrime]

Bela, displeased at Mr Ares's habit of kneecapping her followers, bites his nipple off...

As if a flesh wound like that is likely to stop me. *Kneecaps The Legacy*

 

 

*Glares at Toothbrush and waffleand decides to bide time*

Why would the Dark One have his chief scientist act as a spy among the Dragon Reborns recruits?

Because his scientific skills are useless in the era he finds himself in. He doesn't have the tools to make the tools to make the tools he'd need to continue his work from the AoL.

 

So he gives up on his career entirely? I just think it would have been more satisfying if the Dark One and Moridin had at least given Aginor some little side project experiment to try with the One Power. You know... "Wana earn True Power access again? Then find us a Wolfbrother to corrupt" and Elyas gets some more involvement around books 8-10.

 

We could even get a hint about something yet though. A passing thought of Moridin, stating that Aginor had come up with the Compulsion-Warder bond idea-this would maybe hint of Aginor having studied the Chosen Mark and exactly how Shadowspawn are forced to obey without the need of channeling, and Aginor having figured out it could be done by combining mild Compulsion with the "primitive" 3rd Agers Warder bonds. Even something as small as that would make up for it, because of the impact it has had.

I quite agree that Aginor/Osan'gar hasn't been particularly well served in terms of story, I was just pointing out that there is a fair reason why no use was made of his special skills.

 

Yeah I hear ya. It just seems like a waste when you get people like Siuan losing her ability to channel temporarily yet still finding a way to be involved.