Tuon needs to go down!

[Canis Rufus]

.... Perhaps this thread should have had a different name, just saying, this could mean a couple of things

 

That said she is one of my Fav persons in the book. She is real and is living by her culture you know where she stands and really cares for her people to me she and elyane are alot alike onle Tuon pulls it off better.

[Yuril Strongbow]

Tuon will not be collared or humiliated in any way. THe Seanchan empire is not a nice place. This does not make Tuon a bad or evil person. She has been raised to run the Empire and she beives the Empire is Right in all things. I think when she meets Rand next she will change a great deal. They will come to an agreement and become allies. She is Maried to his best friend Matt

after all so she can't be all bad. Matt will have a very good influence on Tuon. I think they will make changes to bring the Empire into the New age. I think Rand and Cadsuane will point out to Tuon that the whole reason chanalers are collared is that on early ruler of the Empire was narrow mined and bigoted and afer seeing Asadai in the last battle her opion of chanlers will change and the damane will be set free after swearing oaths to defend the Empire. The Empire did not have Oath Rods when the made the Damane slaves.

[Jblaylock]

I voted "taken by the forsaken."

 

She is a cocky little overeaching be-atch!

How dare she defy Rand like she did in TGS!

Were I him, I would have Vader-choked her ass and, while she struggled futily at her throat in an attempt to grab and pry off the invisible grip, I'd camly say something along the lines of, "Do not underestimate my power... and do not defy me again."

 

Then I'd have released her only to give her a second chance of submitting willingly. Should she defy a second time, I would not allow her a third chance. I'd destroy her. I'd destroy them all!

 

[Blackhoof]

i see that we are kindred spirits, el obscuro... alone and misunderstood, we are prejudiced and despised, and what did we do to deserve it? well, i destroyed and terrorised an entire continent and im sure your achievements are impressive too but does that mean we are monsters? doies that mean we are not equal to our non-evil brothers? no, it does not.

 

i have a dream. that one day evil tyrants like you and me will be accepted as equals by our inferior human brethren! a dream that we have equality and basic human rights (like being able to kill anyone and vadar-choke people while giving off awesome one-liners about our power and underestimation). I have a dream.... that my children will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the amount of cities they leave burning in their wake. I have a dream, that all will be enslaved under my boot-heel and that NONE WILL DURVIVE MY FIERY REIGN OF EVIL AND DARKNESS! I have a dream.... a humble dream.

[Jon Paul]

Rand will never bow to the Seanchan, have no fear about that. His bowing would serve no purpose. It would not highlight his humility instead it would inflame the Imperial arrogance. If the Dragon has to learn humility, if the Aes Sedai have to learn humility, then why should the Seanchan be exempt?

[Elan Tedronai]

only time in the series i sat up in glee reading dark rand chapters when he was about to blast those bas**** using the CK.

 

The shame.

[Roach]

Even though I wished Rand would have erased her and her armies from exisitence, you have to see where she is coming from. She is now the ruler of the Seanchan, which as a force just as or more than all the nations that they are fighting now. And with their prophecies stating that he must bow before her to save the world. She can get a little cocky here. Despite the stupidity of it.

 

Personally i like the Seanchan for only one reason, their attack on the white tower. Every Aes Sedai has annoyed the hell out of me everytime they "offer" advice. They bully people around just for their own selfish reasons. Then when the Seanchan attacked, it had shown the tower for what it was, a cat with no claws. sorry for the rant.

 

But for Toun...make Matt happy!

[Blackhoof]

i hated the seanchan even more when they attacked the tower. Sure the aes sedai deserved to be brought down a few dozen pegs, but not at the cost of dozens of poor accepted, novices and sisters.

 

especially the poor novices, helpless and terrified, woken up in the night by the cold metallic click of the a'dam, not realising that they are avbout to become slaves for the next 600 years. at least the sisters COULD have protected themsleves, the novicews and acepted (to some extent) were too weak or poorly-trained to do a thing. they wouldnt even know how to defend themselves, as they wouldnt have been taught fireballs or anything.

 

the whole thing sickens me. rand should have destroyed the seanchan while he was still mad and evil. or at least balefired tuon.

[Jblaylock]

i see that we are kindred spirits, el obscuro... alone and misunderstood, we are prejudiced and despised, and what did we do to deserve it? well, i destroyed and terrorised an entire continent and im sure your achievements are impressive too but does that mean we are monsters? doies that mean we are not equal to our non-evil brothers? no, it does not.

 

i have a dream. that one day evil tyrants like you and me will be accepted as equals by our inferior human brethren! a dream that we have equality and basic human rights (like being able to kill anyone and vadar-choke people while giving off awesome one-liners about our power and underestimation). I have a dream.... that my children will not be judged by the colour of their skin, but by the amount of cities they leave burning in their wake. I have a dream, that all will be enslaved under my boot-heel and that NONE WILL DURVIVE MY FIERY REIGN OF EVIL AND DARKNESS! I have a dream.... a humble dream.

 

... beautiful...

 

except for one thing...

 

 

it is MY heel that the world... nay... the UNIVERSE will be crushed and enslaved under. And I do not wear boots!

[EmeraldCastrol]

I like Tuon, she is one of my favourite characters and one of the most interesting to read. She is more likeable than say, Min, who I find is the most dislikeable female in the whole series. I really don't think we should place the Seanchan ways wholly upon Tuon's shoulders. She is only newly risen to the Empress and I actually she'll make a good ruler, standing up to Rand like she did. I am interested to read about when she finds out that Mat was the one to blow the Horn of Valere and how she'll react when she finds out she can channel indepedent of her damane.

[gambril]

Tuon is hands down my favorite female character. She is one of the few females in the series along with Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha and Faile who actually show they have a brain. Her chapters with Mat are my favorite of the series and the best chapters Jordan wrote in my opinion. Try to objectively compare Tuon alongside Teslyn, Joline and Edesina. How did the Aes Sedai handle their time with Mat after he had already saved them from being Damane forever? They tried to control everything at every turn like the fools they are. Now how did Tuon handle her time with Mat after having been kidnapped by him nonetheless?

 

'Paris Hilton' did what she had to, submitting to Mat via a promise and 'playing the game as it had to be played'. Why did she do this? She didn't do it for herself, not at all. She did it for her people because she knows the Prophecies. She knows this marriage is important for the Empire. Everything she was presented with and knew about Mat disgusted her and he was a complete joke in the eyes of the Seanchan, yet she did her duty. Just look to Selucia to the natural reaction of the situation with Mat/Tuon. Tuon felt the same way as Selucia did generally, yet she rose above those feelings for a higher purpose - her people. It just so happens that fortunately for Tuon that Mat wasn't anything like he was initially portrayed to be when they arrived in Ebou Dar ;p.

 

Elayne and Tuon are very similar characters and look at how long Elayne treated Mat like crap. Tuon never treated Mat this way. She always treated Mat with respect and if she wasn't treating him with respect, she was playing her games with him. Mat is exactly what Tuon needed and when those two are together on screen, they are easily for me the most enjoyable chapters to read in WOT.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Tuon is hands down my favorite female character. She is one of the few females in the series along with Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha and Faile who actually show they have a brain. Her chapters with Mat are my favorite of the series and the best chapters Jordan wrote in my opinion. Try to objectively compare Tuon alongside Teslyn, Joline and Edesina. How did the Aes Sedai handle their time with Mat after he had already saved them from being Damane forever? They tried to control everything at every turn like the fools they are. Now how did Tuon handle her time with Mat after having been kidnapped by him nonetheless?

 

'Paris Hilton' did what she had to, submitting to Mat via a promise and 'playing the game as it had to be played'. Why did she do this? She didn't do it for herself, not at all. She did it for her people because she knows the Prophecies. She knows this marriage is important for the Empire. Everything she was presented with and knew about Mat disgusted her and he was a complete joke in the eyes of the Seanchan, yet she did her duty. Just look to Selucia to the natural reaction of the situation with Mat/Tuon. Tuon felt the same way as Selucia did generally, yet she rose above those feelings for a higher purpose - her people. It just so happens that fortunately for Tuon that Mat wasn't anything like he was initially portrayed to be when they arrived in Ebou Dar ;p.

 

Elayne and Tuon are very similar characters and look at how long Elayne treated Mat like crap. Tuon never treated Mat this way. She always treated Mat with respect and if she wasn't treating him with respect, she was playing her games with him. Mat is exactly what Tuon needed and when those two are together on screen, they are easily for me the most enjoyable chapters to read in WOT.

 

Unfortunately, playing games with someone is NOT what I'd call respecting them, especially if someone doesn't know he is being toyed with. And Tuon sees Mat as nothing more than a toy, at least at first. So in that sense I'd say that Tuon is nowhere near being better than Elayne. That was why Tuon needs Mat, to show her that people are NOT toys. Unfortunately I don't think she's learnt that lesson very well.

 

And although I agree with you about Joline and Edesina, I think Teslyn is an entirely different matter.

[gambril]

Tuon is hands down my favorite female character. She is one of the few females in the series along with Nynaeve, Min, Aviendha and Faile who actually show they have a brain. Her chapters with Mat are my favorite of the series and the best chapters Jordan wrote in my opinion. Try to objectively compare Tuon alongside Teslyn, Joline and Edesina. How did the Aes Sedai handle their time with Mat after he had already saved them from being Damane forever? They tried to control everything at every turn like the fools they are. Now how did Tuon handle her time with Mat after having been kidnapped by him nonetheless?

 

'Paris Hilton' did what she had to, submitting to Mat via a promise and 'playing the game as it had to be played'. Why did she do this? She didn't do it for herself, not at all. She did it for her people because she knows the Prophecies. She knows this marriage is important for the Empire. Everything she was presented with and knew about Mat disgusted her and he was a complete joke in the eyes of the Seanchan, yet she did her duty. Just look to Selucia to the natural reaction of the situation with Mat/Tuon. Tuon felt the same way as Selucia did generally, yet she rose above those feelings for a higher purpose - her people. It just so happens that fortunately for Tuon that Mat wasn't anything like he was initially portrayed to be when they arrived in Ebou Dar ;p.

 

Elayne and Tuon are very similar characters and look at how long Elayne treated Mat like crap. Tuon never treated Mat this way. She always treated Mat with respect and if she wasn't treating him with respect, she was playing her games with him. Mat is exactly what Tuon needed and when those two are together on screen, they are easily for me the most enjoyable chapters to read in WOT.

 

Unfortunately, playing games with someone is NOT what I'd call respecting them, especially if someone doesn't know he is being toyed with. And Tuon sees Mat as nothing more than a toy, at least at first. So in that sense I'd say that Tuon is nowhere near being better than Elayne. That was why Tuon needs Mat, to show her that people are NOT toys. Unfortunately I don't think she's learnt that lesson very well.

 

And although I agree with you about Joline and Edesina, I think Teslyn is an entirely different matter.

 

You're right about the Teslyn thing. She didn't act like a complete buffoon. So she has that going for her. And to go one further, she's not Nynaeve, Verin, Cadsuane or Moiraine level but she's on a tier right below theirs as far as actually being a Servant.

 

As far as Tuon and Elayne with Mat - Tuon, despite her prejudices regarding Mat (seeing him as a Toy and such), I feel like, for the most part, she treated Mat a lot better than Elayne did in the same circumstances. By the same circumstances, I mean they both had a low opinion of him.

 

The cool thing about Tuon and what makes her fun is despite her 'prim' 'noble' manner, she is a playful person at heart and this comes out with her interactions with Mat. One of the best examples of this that I can think of is her reaction when Mat calls her precious. Her response is something along the lines of, "Very well. It will be interesting to see who wins this game Toy" makes me laugh. Mat is always playing games in some manner or another and Tuon compliments this nicely imo.

 

Oh, another good example of her playful nature is after she first recieves that razor and they are riding back to the Tinkers and she plays at jumping over trees and such and gives Mat a mischevious grin, teasing him/playing with him. What you're seeing is the 'behind the scenes' Tuon that half the posters on this forum ignore.

 

Her chapters without Mat's presence when she's with the Blood and being the Empress and such I just relegate that to Tuon being a product of her upbringing and being, for the most part, a typical Seanchan High Blood which is a disapointing aspect of her character. Mat will remedy this though I believe :).

[David Selig]

"Always treated Mat with respect" is really stretching it. After all Tuon called him "Toy" all the time. She tried to boss him around quite a bit too, especially considering she was supposed to be his prisoner.

 

I guess though by WoT standards, where women treating the men badly is the normal procedure, you could say she treated Mat reasonably well. But part of the reason is the Foretlling that she is fated to marry him. I doubt she'd even noticed him if it wasn't for his ring.

[Tom Sawyer]

My main problem with the Mat-Tuon storyline is that they are just so badly miscast for each other. Other than them both hearing a prophecy that they would get married, they have nothing in common and there's no reason for the relationship to exist. Their interactions are forced and unbelievable and the only thing that she does in the novels is drag Mat's storyline down.

 

She's just a badly written character and the story would have been a lot better if no one had bothered putting her in it.

[moratcorlm]

Why do you believe that?

[randsc]

I can't vote for collared. Reminds me too much of the John Norman books that were popular when I was a teenager. Pretty nasty. But humbled I could go for.

[Jblaylock]

My main problem with the Mat-Tuon storyline is that they are just so badly miscast for each other. Other than them both hearing a prophecy that they would get married, they have nothing in common and there's no reason for the relationship to exist. Their interactions are forced and unbelievable and the only thing that she does in the novels is drag Mat's storyline down.

 

She's just a badly written character and the story would have been a lot better if no one had bothered putting her in it.

 

 

She is his opposite, which is why they attract.

 

Everything Matt hates about particular women (noble bloodline, bossy nature, assumption that they'll be listened too, snobbiness, sticking up/out their nose at people, being stubborn, etc etc etc...) Tuon has x10! It's horrible, and I long for her destruction because of it. But.... opposites attract. She makes Mat passionate. Even if that passion is "anger" or "annoyance" it is still passion. And she brings it out of him on a level higher than any other woman. That makes her interesting to him, whether he can see why or not.

[Demiandre]

What I like about the Mat Tuon relationship is exactly that! They ARE opposite!

 

He don't want to be a lord. He wants to be free, have fun, and be what he is. He hates being ta'veren and wants to avoid any kind of responsibility.

The Pattern wanted him to be a commander, to be a leader, to be a general, and to become a high ranking noble.

And because of Tuon, he will have to be. And even if they don't match, there are similarities in them.

And the handful of PoV we have of Tuon are, in my opinion, really good as we, if I remember correctly, see a shift in perception throughout the plotline.

[mb]

The Seanchan I see somewhat similar to the Whitecloaks. Both to some degree dislike the Shadow and both are somewhat disliked by main characters.

Tuon could become like Galad. Galad seems to be changing his faction for the good. Tuon could change the Seanchan for the good after she goes through a change herself.

 

 

Somewhat different topic::

Seanchan prophecy tells that the Dragon Reborn would bow down to the "Nine Moons".

Mainland prophecy tells that she would bow down to him.

 

I has been my guess that both prophecies would come true. My guess on the method has been the male adam.

Another surprise with another copy might be most probable; though I guess she would not have him harm people he loves.

After some time he would gain control of her through it.

[Guest BaLefireP]

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

[EmeraldCastrol]

Elayne and Tuon are very similar characters and look at how long Elayne treated Mat like crap. Tuon never treated Mat this way. She always treated Mat with respect and if she wasn't treating him with respect, she was playing her games with him. Mat is exactly what Tuon needed and when those two are together on screen, they are easily for me the most enjoyable chapters to read in WOT.

 

I'm afraid I have to defend Elayne here. We only know that she treats Mat like crap because of Mat's POV. Mat, however likeable he is, is the ultimate whiner. And Elayne was only copying Nynaeve's behaviour. But you can see from the letter than Mat sent Elayne that the two are actually fond of each other. But I agree that the Mat and Tuon scenes are some of the best written.

 

I really like the scene when they were betrayed by Renna and how Tuon didn't critise Mat for having to kill her.

 

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

 

When Tuon actually tastes what it is like to channel, I think she will free all the damane. And I think that when Rand is just about to kill her, Mat steps in and saves her just in time.

[David Selig]

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

That already happened a few books ago. More exactly she learned she can be taught to channel and accepted it, but said she chose not to do it, and that made all the difference.

[Ihasavowel]

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

That already happened a few books ago. More exactly she learned she can be taught to channel and accepted it, but said she chose not to do it, and that made all the difference.

Which goes to show what a silly little troll she is.

 

She knows she can learn to channel, and further, that she can and does control the same power that damane are not to be trusted with (every time she uses the a'dam on some unfortunate damane).

 

The justification of damane is that if channeling women could run free they would make everyone property. So this twit goes to a land where the Aes Sedai (and other channellers) run free, and the people who live there have not heard of and cannot easily conceive of the notion "people as property", while her damane infested Empire has people as property in every direction....oh and some owned Ogier for good measure.

 

Then she finds out that everyone who has the ability and opportunity to wield the very power that make damane dangerous, are in fact themselves able to channel.

 

If being able to have the power that comes with channeling, makes it inevitable that everyone else will be made property, then this is the case whether or not the channeller controls that power, or some other human does. So the whole damane thing required everyone tell themselves a big fat lie; "channellers are so different from us and similar to each other, that while anyone but them can weild their power through them, without making everyone property, they themselves would turn everyone into property if they could weild their own power". Now everyone in Seanchan might have convinced themselves this lie is actually a truth, but Tuon now knows that she can channel, even if she chooses not to, and Tuon knows that suldam can all channel, that all suldam routinely weild the power, and yet suldam are not making everyone in sight property either.

 

So Tuon knows someone can have the capacity to channel without turning everyone into property and generally being evil. She knows that people can weild the power concerned (and has done so herself) and is happy for people to weild this power in the form of Suldam and people who own damane. Meanwhile, she knows that even though the myth among her people is that if channellers are allowed to roam free, they will make everyone property and no one but them would be free, yet her Empire where they may not roam free is riddled with owned people, and where channellers roam free, there is no such thing as owned people, and people do not readily understand even the concept of people as property.

 

Tuon knows that damane live a miserable life for hundreds of years, and she knows very well that she can channel, and weild the power damane are forbidden from using in their own right (but which is casually handed to suldam), and further that she is more comfortable with the idea of owning people than any Westlands channeller she has encountered. She is not a stupid a woman and if she chooses to not see that the whole damane system is wrong and evil at this point, then she is making a choice to be ignorant, and she is making that choice because it happens to be convenient and easy for her.

[gambril]

I cannot wait till Toun figures out that she can channel.

 

Any thoughts on what she will do when she figures it out?

 

I hope she gets collared!

That already happened a few books ago. More exactly she learned she can be taught to channel and accepted it, but said she chose not to do it, and that made all the difference.

Which goes to show what a silly little troll she is.

 

She knows she can learn to channel, and further, that she can and does control the same power that damane are not to be trusted with (every time she uses the a'dam on some unfortunate damane).

 

The justification of damane is that if channeling women could run free they would make everyone property. So this twit goes to a land where the Aes Sedai (and other channellers) run free, and the people who live there have not heard of and cannot easily conceive of the notion "people as property", while her damane infested Empire has people as property in every direction....oh and some owned Ogier for good measure.

 

Then she finds out that everyone who has the ability and opportunity to wield the very power that make damane dangerous, are in fact themselves able to channel.

 

If being able to have the power that comes with channeling, makes it inevitable that everyone else will be made property, then this is the case whether or not the channeller controls that power, or some other human does. So the whole damane thing required everyone tell themselves a big fat lie; "channellers are so different from us and similar to each other, that while anyone but them can weild their power through them, without making everyone property, they themselves would turn everyone into property if they could weild their own power". Now everyone in Seanchan might have convinced themselves this lie is actually a truth, but Tuon now knows that she can channel, even if she chooses not to, and Tuon knows that suldam can all channel, that all suldam routinely weild the power, and yet suldam are not making everyone in sight property either.

 

So Tuon knows someone can have the capacity to channel without turning everyone into property and generally being evil. She knows that people can weild the power concerned (and has done so herself) and is happy for people to weild this power in the form of Suldam and people who own damane. Meanwhile, she knows that even though the myth among her people is that if channellers are allowed to roam free, they will make everyone property and no one but them would be free, yet her Empire where they may not roam free is riddled with owned people, and where channellers roam free, there is no such thing as owned people, and people do not readily understand even the concept of people as property.

 

Tuon knows that damane live a miserable life for hundreds of years, and she knows very well that she can channel, and weild the power damane are forbidden from using in their own right (but which is casually handed to suldam), and further that she is more comfortable with the idea of owning people than any Westlands channeller she has encountered. She is not a stupid a woman and if she chooses to not see that the whole damane system is wrong and evil at this point, then she is making a choice to be ignorant, and she is making that choice because it happens to be convenient and easy for her.

 

It's not myth lol. After Hawkwing fell, Ishmael sent darkfriend woman channelers calling themselves Aes Sedai across the ocean to Seandar that did the very things you say they didn't. Those woman channelers in Seanchan calling themselves Aes Sedai did try to put everyone in Seadar underneath them simply because they could channel. The result was the Seanchan took a no tolerance stance towards this and put leashes around their neck.

 

The same thing happened in Randland, it's just outside of Hawkwing, Randlanders leaders were all docile sheep in the face of woman that could channel calling themselves Aes Sedai. Randlanders leaders stance is exactly what Dyelin says in some book that stands out which was, "To listen to Aes Sedai is not to follow".