Ashamael freed how often and why?

[Plato]

Why does Ishamael break free, cause a trolloc war, corrupt some Seanchen prophecy, wreak some havoc here and there, then get sealed away again?

Did someone seal him back up again?

How did he break free in the first place?

And if he broke free because the puny man-channeler's seal's were weak, why didn't more break free, and how in the heck did he get sealed back up again if that was the case?

The seals on the Dark One's prison seem like a "once you're free, you're always free" kind of thing...

 

Maybe I'm thinking too deeply about it, maybe it's just the author going "oh that was Ishamael" and not putting more thought into it?

 

Am I the only one who thinks the Trolloc Wars are 10x more menacing with it being trollocs and fades reproducing and invading on their own, rather than being summoned up by a Forsaken with narcolepsy...

 

Edit: and crap! Spelt his name wrong in the title!

[Kestrel]

Ishmael is attached to the Dark Lord by a jumbo-length bungee cord. He leaps out and bounces back.

 

Like any fine chef, Ishmael stirs the kettle only as often as necessary to keep the dish cooking nicely. Most of the time he keeps his hands off the kettle.

 

There is an old adage: The best trick the devil ever played was to convince people he didn't exist. By remaining in the background Ishmael gave plenty of opportunity for the vilest parts of human nature and complacency to do their worst, while he quietly operated unseen and nudged them along.

[l_uniquefeuille]

Ishmael was free to roam the world for 40 years every millennia or so.

I don't remember where I read this, but he was there during the Trolloc wars before disappearing again.

Then appeared during Hawking's reign and became his closest advisor, again disappearing after 40 yrs. He was supposed to be the one who instigated Hawking against Aes Sedai.

[Plato]

While the bungy cord does seem reasonable, and he DOES seem like he could make a mean Chicken Marsala... And true humans can do super evil things by themselves better than the devil whispering in their ear. I guess there just isn't a good reason why he physically is sealed up again.

 

rant:

Why can't Artur Hawkwing be just a racist prick? It would be much MORE sinister if human nature did the horrible deeds themselves without interference from the devil. Having Ishamael come back, then disappear just seems so childish, and lessens Hawkwing's douche-bag-ness.

/end rant

[TheNextMovement]

I think a lot of this was due to the fact that Ishamael was most likely only partially bound by the seals on the DO's prison. The seals bound the other Forsaken until they began to crack and break. But Ishamael was allowed to gather the strength to inhabit a new body every 40 years. Remember too that he was so full of the True Source and the True Power that his physical body suffered, and he had smouldering bits of fire where his eyes should have been. I don't doubt that this means Ishamael had learned to transcend the physical trappings of the world and use T'A'R to bind himself to a new body every 40 years. The souls of Birgitte and Gaidal Cain along with the other heroes of the horn remained in T'A'R until they are spun out again. Ishamael probably discovered a way to do this himself with the fact that he was so powerful.

[zshadez]

rant:

Why can't Artur Hawkwing be just a racist prick? It would be much MORE sinister if human nature did the horrible deeds themselves without interference from the devil. Having Ishamael come back, then disappear just seems so childish, and lessens Hawkwing's douche-bag-ness.

/end rant

 

Ishy isn't the devil, he is a man who chose to go over to the shadow. As such it wasn't interference from the devil causing Hawkwing to be a prick, it was interference and corruption from a man who *chose* the evil path... which means it IS humans being horrible by themselves.

 

As for the bore and the seal, think of them like a hole in the ground and a tar pit. LTT didn't build a wall to keep the DO away, the DO was found in a 'hole' they drilled and he filled it in with 'tar'. The DO is at the bottom of the pit and the forsaken are strewn throughout to the surface. When the seals were fully intact the DO was buried too deep to reach the surface, but Ishy was trapped close enough to the surface to be able to reach out now and again, though he couldn't keep himself up for long. As the seals weakened the level of the "tar" dropped and he and was relesed fully, and as they weakened more the forsaken were released in order of the ones closest to the surface to the ones trapped the deepest. At the same time the DO's touch on the world has grown as he's gotten closer to the surface and able to stratch out farther.

   =    =      surface
----=ISHY=----- layer 1
--------------- layer 2
----==----==--- layer 3
----==----==--- layer 4
----==----==--- layer 5
----==----==--- layer 6
----===DO===--- layer 7

The seven layers of the seal, "=" representing arms or reach.

 

Ishy could reach out somtimes but was still trapped.

The other forsaken were all too deep for their powers to let them reach out at all.

The DO has a much longer reach, which is why his influence over the world has grown so much even though he's not yet free.

[Lynchgrinch]

rant:

Why can't Artur Hawkwing be just a racist prick? It would be much MORE sinister if human nature did the horrible deeds themselves without interference from the devil. Having Ishamael come back, then disappear just seems so childish, and lessens Hawkwing's douche-bag-ness.

/end rant

 

Ishy isn't the devil, he is a man who chose to go over to the shadow. As such it wasn't interference from the devil causing Hawkwing to be a prick, it was interference and corruption from a man who *chose* the evil path... which means it IS humans being horrible by themselves.

 

As for the bore and the seal, think of them like a hole in the ground and a tar pit. LTT didn't build a wall to keep the DO away, the DO was found in a 'hole' they drilled and he filled it in with 'tar'. The DO is at the bottom of the pit and the forsaken are strewn throughout to the surface. When the seals were fully intact the DO was buried too deep to reach the surface, but Ishy was trapped close enough to the surface to be able to reach out now and again, though he couldn't keep himself up for long. As the seals weakened the level of the "tar" dropped and he and was relesed fully, and as they weakened more the forsaken were released in order of the ones closest to the surface to the ones trapped the deepest. At the same time the DO's touch on the world has grown as he's gotten closer to the surface and able to stratch out farther.

   =    =      surface
----=ISHY=----- layer 1
--------------- layer 2
----==----==--- layer 3
----==----==--- layer 4
----==----==--- layer 5
----==----==--- layer 6
----===DO===--- layer 7

The seven layers of the seal, "=" representing arms or reach.

 

Ishy could reach out somtimes but was still trapped.

The other forsaken were all too deep for their powers to let them reach out at all.

The DO has a much longer reach, which is why his influence over the world has grown so much even though he's not yet free.

 

 

yeah, but none if this explains the whole "aginor and balthamael were ancient and ugly when they got out the prison"...if ishy was at the top, surely he would have aged faster than those two, who were pretty much falling apart at the end of tEoTW. And whe know that those two were at the top of the prison....they were the first to be relesed.......so IMHO your diagram don't quite explain things fully....points for the effort, though

[Nae Bliss]

rant:

Why can't Artur Hawkwing be just a racist prick? It would be much MORE sinister if human nature did the horrible deeds themselves without interference from the devil. Having Ishamael come back, then disappear just seems so childish, and lessens Hawkwing's douche-bag-ness.

/end rant

 

Ishy isn't the devil, he is a man who chose to go over to the shadow. As such it wasn't interference from the devil causing Hawkwing to be a prick, it was interference and corruption from a man who *chose* the evil path... which means it IS humans being horrible by themselves.

 

As for the bore and the seal, think of them like a hole in the ground and a tar pit. LTT didn't build a wall to keep the DO away, the DO was found in a 'hole' they drilled and he filled it in with 'tar'. The DO is at the bottom of the pit and the forsaken are strewn throughout to the surface. When the seals were fully intact the DO was buried too deep to reach the surface, but Ishy was trapped close enough to the surface to be able to reach out now and again, though he couldn't keep himself up for long. As the seals weakened the level of the "tar" dropped and he and was relesed fully, and as they weakened more the forsaken were released in order of the ones closest to the surface to the ones trapped the deepest. At the same time the DO's touch on the world has grown as he's gotten closer to the surface and able to stratch out farther.

   =    =      surface
----=ISHY=----- layer 1
--------------- layer 2
----==----==--- layer 3
----==----==--- layer 4
----==----==--- layer 5
----==----==--- layer 6
----===DO===--- layer 7

The seven layers of the seal, "=" representing arms or reach.

 

Ishy could reach out somtimes but was still trapped.

The other forsaken were all too deep for their powers to let them reach out at all.

The DO has a much longer reach, which is why his influence over the world has grown so much even though he's not yet free.

 

 

yeah, but none if this explains the whole "aginor and balthamael were ancient and ugly when they got out the prison"...if ishy was at the top, surely he would have aged faster than those two, who were pretty much falling apart at the end of tEoTW. And whe know that those two were at the top of the prison....they were the first to be relesed.......so IMHO your diagram don't quite explain things fully....points for the effort, though

Ishy got special treatment for being Nae Blis? Like a teachers pet?

[Vermillion]

Who says that he was bound at anytime? He wasn't bound right after sealing that's for sure. He was there to torment LTT.

[zshadez]

yeah, but none if this explains the whole "aginor and balthamael were ancient and ugly when they got out the prison"...if ishy was at the top, surely he would have aged faster than those two, who were pretty much falling apart at the end of tEoTW. And whe know that those two were at the top of the prison....they were the first to be relesed.......so IMHO your diagram don't quite explain things fully....points for the effort, though

 

Aginor and Balthamael were in bad shape when first released after 3,000ish years of the wheel grinding, true, but the longer the fight with Rand went on and the more power Ag pulled into himself the younger and stronger he appeared. Ishy, being being able to partially free himself and touch the power several times over the course of his imprisonment, would appear the youngest since he'd held the power the most recently especially given that he holds the TP seemingly constantly when freed. Since pulling the power into himself for only a few minutes started to heal Agy's decrepitness it makes sense for Ishy to not appear as haggard as the other two.

[Darth Krewl]

I think it's simple: Ishamael kept going back behind the seals to preserve himself. Thinking that he'd keep young and healthy for around 3000 yrs. (even through the use of the Power) sounds just too far-fetched, IMO.

 

There are, after all, rules that apply to the physical realm that should be respected, even in fantasy. Human flesh can't stay fresh forever, internal organs do rot and bones do turn to dust after so long. Doesn't solve the riddle on why he could come and go as he pleased, while the others couldn't but, concerning his being seen on and off, this explanation would be good enough for me. Not that it matters much now that he's become Moridin, though.

[Demiandre]

Maybe he could, by being bound near the surface, go to TAR in the flesh, then affect the World. We see that he torment the boys a lot through TAR. By the same mean, he could go to the Real World/project himself there from TAR, but not for too long a time, because he was still bound by the seals.

 

Just my two coppers

[mb]

I recall somewhere telling that Ishamael was not fully bound; that is why he made the appearances.

And I take it was at intervals of 40 years, not intervals of 1000; and spending a relatively short time each time, not spending 40 years each time.

[Whatsie]

I don't know about being out FOR 40, but being out EVERY 40 seems... A bit much. We know for a fact (?) that he was out for the Trolloc Wars and Hawkwing. Was he Mordeth, too? Was that at the beginning of the Trolloc Wars? I left tEotW at home....

 

Sent using Tapatalk

[Demiandre]

We have the story of Arthur last years, and a comment that Ishamael disappeared after 40 years, without aging a bit IIRC

[Cillian]

Was he Mordeth, too?

 

Nope. Mordeth was a man who had explored a different kind of evil.

[mb]

Trolloc Wars, I recall somewhere telling that Ishamael set up the Black Ajah during that time; do not remember exactly where.

 

Mordeth, like another told, caused a different kind of evil. The Mordeth that appeared to the 3 taveren, that I take was like a spirit and bound to Shadar Logoth.

Since Ishamael appeared in the dreams of the 3 taveren (also sometimes in waking world) and since Mordeth was bound to Shadar Logoth, the two could not have been the same person.

[Whatsie]

I guess that I always thought Ishy was originally Mordeth the human, but that when evil consumed Aridhol and created mashadar, it created a lookalike or something. Didn't realize they are two different evils. That's why these forums are great!

 

Sent using Tapatalk

[Luckystrike]

rant:

Why can't Artur Hawkwing be just a racist prick? It would be much MORE sinister if human nature did the horrible deeds themselves without interference from the devil. Having Ishamael come back, then disappear just seems so childish, and lessens Hawkwing's douche-bag-ness.

/end rant

 

Ishy isn't the devil, he is a man who chose to go over to the shadow. As such it wasn't interference from the devil causing Hawkwing to be a prick, it was interference and corruption from a man who *chose* the evil path... which means it IS humans being horrible by themselves.

 

As for the bore and the seal, think of them like a hole in the ground and a tar pit. LTT didn't build a wall to keep the DO away, the DO was found in a 'hole' they drilled and he filled it in with 'tar'. The DO is at the bottom of the pit and the forsaken are strewn throughout to the surface. When the seals were fully intact the DO was buried too deep to reach the surface, but Ishy was trapped close enough to the surface to be able to reach out now and again, though he couldn't keep himself up for long. As the seals weakened the level of the "tar" dropped and he and was relesed fully, and as they weakened more the forsaken were released in order of the ones closest to the surface to the ones trapped the deepest. At the same time the DO's touch on the world has grown as he's gotten closer to the surface and able to stratch out farther.

   =    =      surface
----=ISHY=----- layer 1
--------------- layer 2
----==----==--- layer 3
----==----==--- layer 4
----==----==--- layer 5
----==----==--- layer 6
----===DO===--- layer 7

The seven layers of the seal, "=" representing arms or reach.

 

Ishy could reach out somtimes but was still trapped.

The other forsaken were all too deep for their powers to let them reach out at all.

The DO has a much longer reach, which is why his influence over the world has grown so much even though he's not yet free.

 

 

yeah, but none if this explains the whole "aginor and balthamael were ancient and ugly when they got out the prison"...if ishy was at the top, surely he would have aged faster than those two, who were pretty much falling apart at the end of tEoTW. And whe know that those two were at the top of the prison....they were the first to be relesed.......so IMHO your diagram don't quite explain things fully....points for the effort, though

 

 

So you say that fire in your eyes and mouth is pretty? :P

[Kahlika]

Paraphrasing from TWoRJTWoT, Ch. 5

 

Aran son of Malan son of Senar (born roughly 50 AB) theorised Ishamael was only partially bound by the seal (as opposed to Aginor and Balthamel who were fully bound, but close to the surface). This allowed him to touching the world for specific periods of time before being draw back in, with this occuring in a cycle.

 

People claimed to have seen Ishamael up to 40 years after the sealing, so Aran theorised it took a long time for him to be brought into the prison with the rest of the Forsaken. As evidence to support his 'thrown out in a cycle' theory he cites interviews with Darkfriends as to when and where they'd recieved orders from Ba’alzamon. He theorises the cycle lasts 1000 years, as the sealing, the Trolloc Wars, the War of the Hundered Years and the current time are all ~1000 years apart.

 

That about as close an answer as we'll get I believe.