Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[Exy]

I am not an apologist; what they do is bad. However they also have some good points about their society. Its not as if they are a horrible inhumane race bent on wiping everyone out. Except for channelers, they seem content for people to do as they did prior to them coming in. There are much much worst situations for people to be in then invaded by the Seanchan. Whitecloaks (prior to Galad), the Prophet, even Logain, committed worst against the "common" people then the Seanchan ever did. The channeling thing is horrible, as is the secret police thing to some extent, but in general I think they have potential.

And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

 

It's creepy to see so many people here defending a fictional society that is a depiction of pure fascism. Seanchan is a society whose fundamental basis is devotion to the State above all else -- which is the literal definition of fascism -- and depictions of it show all the things associated with historical fascist states: extremely powerful secret police, a very loose interpretation of "the good of all" that permits total brutality against individuals, and the rulers benefiting themselves while justifying it by saying that society is now orderly and stable.

 

I don't know if people's defense of the Seanchan is a sign of how scarily common authoritarian thinking is, or if it's maybe a positive sign that so many people have the luxury of having no real understanding what it was like in fascist states of the past.

[Jack Shaftoe]

It's creepy to see so many people here defending a fictional society that is a depiction of pure fascism.

 

It's also annoying how many people would brand any oppressive society as fascism. The Seanchan are very obviously based on Eastern empires like Persia, Japan and China. Not on Hitler or Mussolini. Which doesn't necessarily make them any more humane than those two dictators, mind you, but let's call them for what they are.

 

It IS similar, and I think that's part of the point. Throughout the series, we are specifically shown scene after scene of Rand coming in and trying his darndest to make things right, the way he sees it (which is very 21st century-ish, equal rights, etc.). He's a good guy with a good heart and a good head, and he's using his position of power to make things better. He's at the forefront of serious social change that will leave Randland a much better place, eventually.

 

The Seanchan represent regression, compared to Rand's progress. Back to the way things were, except even worse. Better for Rand to have gone through with his "nuke them all" plan at the end of TGS than to let the Seanchan spread.

 

Yes, burning so much of the Pattern would have really been a great plan. Not. And I don't think the Seanchan represent regression only. They do develop technologies in Aviendha's vision and looking at Egeanin or some of the captured suldam and damane they aren't that resistant to change as they would liek to believe. They do need a strong push in the right direction obviously but the way people on this forum talk about them you would think they are as irredeemable as Darkfriends.

 

Also, it's unknown whether Rand's reforms will survive if he dies in the Last Battle. One of the good things about absolutists state is that with a strong ruler reforms can be achieved faster. We see it with Rand changing old traditions just like that. Instead of warfare, which will only make the Seanchan rally even more behind their leaders, Rand and Mat should concentrate on convincing Tuon that the choice is between reforms and a war she doesn't have much of a shot of winning. Or better yet ,that reforms make sense. Maybe that's part of the point of the emphasis on Andor - if Tuon can be convinced a kingdom can work well without damane and slavery, she might reconsider her stance on these issues. Problem is, there doesn't seem to be time in the story for this to happen. There isn't time for a war against the Seanchan either, so most likely Rand will have to strike a deal with them and leave the problem for after the last Battle. Personally, I would like that - one thing at a time. Sort of how Perrin refused to attack the Whitecloaks.

[Kidicaris]

I really like the WoT series, but I really have trouble understanding the logic of how the Seanchan can be considered a threat to the Randlands. It just does not add up. But in the future it would be even worse!

 

2 - Randland = 2 Potential Channeler fighters. 2 - Seanchan channelers = 1 Sul'dam/Daemain combo. Basically cuting 1/2 power

 

Randland Channelers can link - creating super Channeler - Seanchan Channelers can not - Big handicap!

 

Randland Channelers can use Angrel and Sa'angrel - Seanchan Channelers can not - Another Big handicap.

 

 

 

Sul'dam/Daemain combo requires two people two people making concious decision to channel. The Sul'dam must release the damain to channel. Resulting in potentially slower reaction time.

 

If you kill/disable either the Sul'dam or the Damaine - you disable the entire weapon. 2 people (adam link) creates twice the exposed target. That represents two potential targets to any Archer or Channeler or Cannoner.

 

Not only that, but since since the Damaine are programmed to submit immediately to whoever "holds" their leash, you can kill the Sul'dam & give the Damaine immediately to any week channeler so that they can immediately be turned their former rulers.

 

 

 

With Randlander Channelers if you kill / disable one - it still leaves the other Channeler fighting.

 

 

Aiel in particular, are experts at stealth / gurilla warfare. WOs normally do not participate in fighting but for the Seanchan I think that they will change. WOs & archers can easily sneek up on Seanchan camps & take out the channelers 2 at a time. WOs now have advantages of having many AS weaves (masking, MoM, inverted weaves, traveling ++.

 

 

Between the Aiel, Black Tower, Sea Folk and White Tower, I just do not see how the Seanchan can represent the threat that they are given in the books. That is as long as these forces established a united front.

 

I've been thinking about the pros and cons of the Seanchan and the AS (as well as Kin, Windfinders and Wise Ones). In light of Avi's visions forward I've tried to rationalize how the Seanchan could have swept the wetlands.

 

We can't underestimate the damane numbers or their training. With Traveling the Return can call upon the resources of the entire Empire (assuming Seanchan is eventually reunified). So basically the Return has a whole other continent's worth of damane as well as all the women they captured in the wetlands. The same cannot be said of the wetlands after TG. Rand is gone and the united front he formed seems to have fractured back into separate scheming nations, basically becoming a series of sitting ducks for the Ever Victorious Army.

 

Most of the damane are just trained weapons, and since they aren't having their lives cut in half by the Oath Rod they will be particularly well trained and practiced weapons. Of course we learn special damane with talents and unique abilities are not risked in battle, but most damane will be weapons.

 

For other reason we do hope the free channelers learn how to fight, TG is starting and the Battle Ajah (who ostensibly were waiting 3 thousand years to fight) have been pretty bad at it. But we cannot underestimate complacency once TG is done and the Dragon's Peace covers the wetlands. Maybe the free women go back to their lives, their habits, their small sedentary worlds that does not involve thinking of battle, or Seanchan.

 

Unlike the AS (and other free women)who are part of civil society, the damane are part of a military machine, so they could never grow complacent, or lose their focus and purpose. Presumably for those many decades between TG and the new war the Seanchan have remained ready, not only on guard from Aiel attacks, but also reunifying Seanchan. So when they finally had the motivation to go to war, they already had the infrastructure and personnel for a real one.

 

We learn that the Black Tower is destroyed long before the White Tower. At first this surprised me, because the Asha'man start their existence as weapons, and master the weaves to fight first. I guess they were just hopelessly outnumbered in some kind of very clever attack using gated in forces. Perhaps they also joined society and made lives that didn't require them to think about or practice war. The fact that they were men seems to excluded them from Egwene's ambition to unify channelers so it's possible they had no backup when the Seanchan came knocking.

It's also possible the Seanchan acquire some new tricks. Although the forces of the Light currently have many weaves and abilities still absent in the damane--like inverting or balefire, it only takes ONE captured woman with the knowledge and the Seanchan will soon know it too. Look how quickly Elaida spilled it. Who knows, nothing was said about the BT except that their fortress was destroyed and that some fought on "viva la resistance" style.

 

The WT falls much later, and it's possibly because the AS have all those fancy linked circles and items of Power. Yet war will change now that both sides can Travel, the siege is a relic of the past. No longer will an army sit for months outside TV sitting ducks for Circles and Vorsa's Rod. The Seanchan could whittled down the AS one by one in a series of battles. Circles take time to form and items of the power can be destroyed unless they are cuendillar. With gates it's highly unlikely the targets (damane) would just stay put in a fight. Plus, the Seanchan can gate away and later pick a new approach. The WT by comparison is not going anywhere, the physical structure the AS are so attached to, and are going to go down defending is a liability. Hell, a suicidal force of Seanchan could gate into the Tower and cause massive damage, not only to women, but to the structure itself.

 

I don't know how gunpowder and cannons factors into these battles, does a channelers reach extend beyond them? We can rest assured that the Seanchan will quickly adopt the tech once they see one. It might not be a handcrafted Aludra masterpiece, but it'll work.

Quick tangent: why don't the women use shield and domes and barriers of Air? If they could make it solid enough to stop arrows and sword slashes they would be as useful as a woman who could weave Fire well.

 

However, the AS were not the only channelers in danger. One would think with a full alliance of AS, Kin, WF, WO and AM they could have put up a good fight and we're shown in ToM that Egwene is setting up tentative alliances with the women organizations. Nowhere in the visions is this discussed, but I have to wonder if Egwene's alliance bore any fruit, or enough fruit to form a united front when the war began. Egwene's proposal of 2 apprentices rotating around seems inadequate and there's no real movement on a WT-BT unification. By the time the war starts we know the Aiel are in straights and that many of the nations have been tensely eyeing each other. Perhaps the channeling organizations were also feeling a little uneasy with each other in the century after TG making a real coherent counter to the damane impossible or badly mashed together.

 

Last but not least of all. If the Seanchan win a skirmish and manage to take a woman captive, they have now added to their damane. You could make an argument that the damane could be freed too, but the limited visions we are given indicate a forward momentum of conquest, so we can only imagine any freed pair had just be retaken eventually until there was nowhere left to run but Shara--and the Aiel were definitely feeling no love from them.

[lordofsoup]

The seanchan do not have anything to do with technology. All of the new technology being developed in Randland is being developed by Rand's schools in Caemyln, Tear, Illian and Cairhein. Their prophecies have been corrupted by the Forsaken, Ishmael, and the false parts comming true are merely coincedences. The seanchan may be good people, but they are misguided and are lucky that Rand has so many other problems, the black tower eg. That he can not concentrate on them. If he did they would have no chance.

[Viperswhip]

I really like the WoT series, but I really have trouble understanding the logic of how the Seanchan can be considered a threat to the Randlands. It just does not add up. But in the future it would be even worse!

 

2 - Randland = 2 Potential Channeler fighters. 2 - Seanchan channelers = 1 Sul'dam/Daemain combo. Basically cuting 1/2 power

 

Randland Channelers can link - creating super Channeler - Seanchan Channelers can not - Big handicap!

 

Randland Channelers can use Angrel and Sa'angrel - Seanchan Channelers can not - Another Big handicap.

 

 

 

Sul'dam/Daemain combo requires two people two people making concious decision to channel. The Sul'dam must release the damain to channel. Resulting in potentially slower reaction time.

 

If you kill/disable either the Sul'dam or the Damaine - you disable the entire weapon. 2 people (adam link) creates twice the exposed target. That represents two potential targets to any Archer or Channeler or Cannoner.

 

Not only that, but since since the Damaine are programmed to submit immediately to whoever "holds" their leash, you can kill the Sul'dam & give the Damaine immediately to any week channeler so that they can immediately be turned their former rulers.

 

 

 

With Randlander Channelers if you kill / disable one - it still leaves the other Channeler fighting.

 

 

Aiel in particular, are experts at stealth / gurilla warfare. WOs normally do not participate in fighting but for the Seanchan I think that they will change. WOs & archers can easily sneek up on Seanchan camps & take out the channelers 2 at a time. WOs now have advantages of having many AS weaves (masking, MoM, inverted weaves, traveling ++.

 

 

Between the Aiel, Black Tower, Sea Folk and White Tower, I just do not see how the Seanchan can represent the threat that they are given in the books. That is as long as these forces established a united front.

 

I've been thinking about the pros and cons of the Seanchan and the AS (as well as Kin, Windfinders and Wise Ones). In light of Avi's visions forward I've tried to rationalize how the Seanchan could have swept the wetlands.

 

We can't underestimate the damane numbers or their training. With Traveling the Return can call upon the resources of the entire Empire (assuming Seanchan is eventually reunified). So basically the Return has a whole other continent's worth of damane as well as all the women they captured in the wetlands. The same cannot be said of the wetlands after TG. Rand is gone and the united front he formed seems to have fractured back into separate scheming nations, basically becoming a series of sitting ducks for the Ever Victorious Army.

 

Most of the damane are just trained weapons, and since they aren't having their lives cut in half by the Oath Rod they will be particularly well trained and practiced weapons. Of course we learn special damane with talents and unique abilities are not risked in battle, but most damane will be weapons.

 

For other reason we do hope the free channelers learn how to fight, TG is starting and the Battle Ajah (who ostensibly were waiting 3 thousand years to fight) have been pretty bad at it. But we cannot underestimate complacency once TG is done and the Dragon's Peace covers the wetlands. Maybe the free women go back to their lives, their habits, their small sedentary worlds that does not involve thinking of battle, or Seanchan.

 

Unlike the AS (and other free women)who are part of civil society, the damane are part of a military machine, so they could never grow complacent, or lose their focus and purpose. Presumably for those many decades between TG and the new war the Seanchan have remained ready, not only on guard from Aiel attacks, but also reunifying Seanchan. So when they finally had the motivation to go to war, they already had the infrastructure and personnel for a real one.

 

We learn that the Black Tower is destroyed long before the White Tower. At first this surprised me, because the Asha'man start their existence as weapons, and master the weaves to fight first. I guess they were just hopelessly outnumbered in some kind of very clever attack using gated in forces. Perhaps they also joined society and made lives that didn't require them to think about or practice war. The fact that they were men seems to excluded them from Egwene's ambition to unify channelers so it's possible they had no backup when the Seanchan came knocking.

It's also possible the Seanchan acquire some new tricks. Although the forces of the Light currently have many weaves and abilities still absent in the damane--like inverting or balefire, it only takes ONE captured woman with the knowledge and the Seanchan will soon know it too. Look how quickly Elaida spilled it. Who knows, nothing was said about the BT except that their fortress was destroyed and that some fought on "viva la resistance" style.

 

Men can't link without women in the chain, so if Logain wasn't still operational with his honeys and his companions with their bound Aes Sedai, or the Aes Sedai were released (much more likely), then the Men wouldn't stand that much of a chance if a sufficient force of channelers came at them. When we've seen the Seanchan fight other channeler's we've seen them primarily trying to capture them, this is what allowed Nyn, Avi and Elayne to escape Ebou Dar instead of being fried. When approaching the Black Tower, we can presume they were attempting to kill, and we haven't seen the Seanchan go all out yet.

 

An earlier post questioned how the Seanchan could be such a threat when the Adam essentially is a limiting factor. Well, the Seanchan are brilliant warriors with great strategists in command, who shockingly raise people in command based on ability and good service. Check out Tylee as an example. Men and women are largely equal in their society, something also foreign to Randland, other than perhaps the Aeil. Well, the Black Tower and even the White Tower are largely based on ego based promotion, and political maneuvering. You have some losers like Suroth but it's not hard to imagine that Semiharge got her put in charge of the Forerunners. All in all, the Seanchan are very dangerous with a continent of unknown population from which they can recruit more troops and channelers, not to mention taking over ones here. I am of the opinion that if the Seanchan regain control of their home continent, they will be an unstoppable military force.

 

Frankly, there is no real way to end the Seanchan threat unless Randland invades Sendar or wherever, and that just isn't going to happen. Even if the Seanchan on this side of the ocean were wiped out, someone will consolidate power over there and attack again in a few hundred years. Even an internal combustion that results in channelers being unleashed, you still have a massive super professional army with strict discipline and creative dogged ability based commanders. Hell, look at the problems even Mat has trying to promote the best in his Band.

 

Anyway, I loathe the Seanchan more than the Shadow but there is just no way I can see them being beaten unless Randland takes them out immediately after TG and then unifies into a solid commercial based continent that will be strong enough in 500 years to repel the next invasion. Also, consider what might happen without the buffer of Aeil in the Waste. We don't know how big the rest of Randland is or how many people are in Sara, they could invade as well.

[SvetSedi]

I really like the WoT series, but I really have trouble understanding the logic of how the Seanchan can be considered a threat to the Randlands. It just does not add up. But in the future it would be even worse!

 

2 - Randland = 2 Potential Channeler fighters. 2 - Seanchan channelers = 1 Sul'dam/Daemain combo. Basically cuting 1/2 power

 

Randland Channelers can link - creating super Channeler - Seanchan Channelers can not - Big handicap!

 

Randland Channelers can use Angrel and Sa'angrel - Seanchan Channelers can not - Another Big handicap.

 

 

 

Sul'dam/Daemain combo requires two people two people making concious decision to channel. The Sul'dam must release the damain to channel. Resulting in potentially slower reaction time.

 

If you kill/disable either the Sul'dam or the Damaine - you disable the entire weapon. 2 people (adam link) creates twice the exposed target. That represents two potential targets to any Archer or Channeler or Cannoner.

 

Not only that, but since since the Damaine are programmed to submit immediately to whoever "holds" their leash, you can kill the Sul'dam & give the Damaine immediately to any week channeler so that they can immediately be turned their former rulers.

 

 

 

With Randlander Channelers if you kill / disable one - it still leaves the other Channeler fighting.

 

 

Aiel in particular, are experts at stealth / gurilla warfare. WOs normally do not participate in fighting but for the Seanchan I think that they will change. WOs & archers can easily sneek up on Seanchan camps & take out the channelers 2 at a time. WOs now have advantages of having many AS weaves (masking, MoM, inverted weaves, traveling ++.

 

 

Between the Aiel, Black Tower, Sea Folk and White Tower, I just do not see how the Seanchan can represent the threat that they are given in the books. That is as long as these forces established a united front.

 

 

Men can't link without women in the chain, so if Logain wasn't still operational with his honeys and his companions with their bound Aes Sedai, or the Aes Sedai were released (much more likely), then the Men wouldn't stand that much of a chance if a sufficient force of channelers came at them. When we've seen the Seanchan fight other channeler's we've seen them primarily trying to capture them, this is what allowed Nyn, Avi and Elayne to escape Ebou Dar instead of being fried. When approaching the Black Tower, we can presume they were attempting to kill, and we haven't seen the Seanchan go all out yet.

 

An earlier post questioned how the Seanchan could be such a threat when the Adam essentially is a limiting factor. Well, the Seanchan are brilliant warriors with great strategists in command, who shockingly raise people in command based on ability and good service. Check out Tylee as an example. Men and women are largely equal in their society, something also foreign to Randland, other than perhaps the Aeil. Well, the Black Tower and even the White Tower are largely based on ego based promotion, and political maneuvering. You have some losers like Suroth but it's not hard to imagine that Semiharge got her put in charge of the Forerunners. All in all, the Seanchan are very dangerous with a continent of unknown population from which they can recruit more troops and channelers, not to mention taking over ones here. I am of the opinion that if the Seanchan regain control of their home continent, they will be an unstoppable military force.

 

Frankly, there is no real way to end the Seanchan threat unless Randland invades Sendar or wherever, and that just isn't going to happen. Even if the Seanchan on this side of the ocean were wiped out, someone will consolidate power over there and attack again in a few hundred years. Even an internal combustion that results in channelers being unleashed, you still have a massive super professional army with strict discipline and creative dogged ability based commanders. Hell, look at the problems even Mat has trying to promote the best in his Band.

 

Anyway, I loathe the Seanchan more than the Shadow but there is just no way I can see them being beaten unless Randland takes them out immediately after TG and then unifies into a solid commercial based continent that will be strong enough in 500 years to repel the next invasion. Also, consider what might happen without the buffer of Aeil in the Waste. We don't know how big the rest of Randland is or how many people are in Sara, they could invade as well.

I disagree Viper. I think the previous poster has several valid points. The Seanchan are cutting their power in half by using two channelers to create one linked channeler. That is not maximizing your recourses. Plus those other issues. All of them cut down their effective fighting power.

 

On top of that, while they do "some things" correctly - some promotion on merit, we see significant backstabbing and assignation. I would consider the Seanchan political backstabbing actually to be significantly worse than what we see in any of the Randlands.

 

Another issue is that you are comparing the Seanchan campaigns against very fragmented adversaries as if they were fighting the best of Randlanders. They are not. Even with the advantages that they have (Fliers & Channeling fighters, we have seen them get their Axxes rather soundly kicked at Flame, and by Rand in Altara, and by Iruralde with a vastly smaller force. The only reason Rand stopped was because he did not know about Channelar & the bowl of the winds use. The only reason that Iruralde got beaten down so much is because he started with an extremely inferior force and no channelers what so ever. If Iruralde would have had those Ash'amen from the beginning I think that the outcome would have been significantly different.

[Sharaman]

The key to the EVA is that it's adaptive and learns more every time it fights a campaign.

The Seanchan know they have the resources to lose a few battles in order to work out a tactical doctrine to fight a specific foe.

They also institutionalise their battlefield learning.

They have more soldiers, they have seamlessly integrated a variety of animal arms and specialists in various tasks, they wouldn't have problems incorporating technology like cannons, they are used to managing vast and complex logistics.

The Aiel strike out on several of those grounds.

Eventually, over generations, the Seanchan would beat the Aiel for sure, for a whole variety of reasons.

Think of the history of the Apaches/ Zulu versus modern armies if you want real world examples.

[Duskfire]

It also helps that they are constantly replenishing their army by using the mainlands own troops. Who would join up with the Aiel for instance? Yet the Seanchan, as long as you cant channel - is better then the alternative - which is death or proverty.

[Jeangray]

The Seanchan are cutting their power in half by using two channelers to create one linked channeler. That is not maximizing your recourses.

 

More than in half, actually. There are many times more sul'dam than damane, and when not linked they are a completely useless weight. Not to mention that not everybody tests for sul'dam.

What is more, isn't Seanchan military's ability to display initiative and to learn from mistakes one of their main strengths? Except where their channelers are concerned, of course, where these tasks must be taken over by non-channelers... who by definition are very much disadvantaged in this area, particularly since channeling seems to be more art than science.

[DrK]

Aside from the very good points above is that even now with the DR wandering around all the Randland nations are still not really cooperating with each other so that while they are all happily fragmented the Senchean are one "happy unified empire".

 

And the randland channellers (well mainly the AS) miss probably the majority of girls born with the spark whilst the Senchean harvest every single one. And with every victory over Randland would get some more channellers.

 

Plus aside from the borderlanders the randland armies are essentially militias...

[Sharaman]

If the Seanchan come up against linked channeling a few more times, they'll interrogate the captured AS and probably figure out a way to deal with it.

There could be a creative way to create full circles while maintaining leashing.

We did see that one sul'dam can control more than one damane at a time, - so it may be possible to create a circle controlled by one sul'dam, or maybe grab an oath rod and swear some damane to obedience and let them form circles while uncollared.

[Kidicaris]

The Seanchan are cutting their power in half by using two channelers to create one linked channeler. That is not maximizing your recourses.

 

More than in half, actually. There are many times more sul'dam than damane, and when not linked they are a completely useless weight. Not to mention that not everybody tests for sul'dam.

What is more, isn't Seanchan military's ability to display initiative and to learn from mistakes one of their main strengths? Except where their channelers are concerned, of course, where these tasks must be taken over by non-channelers... who by definition are very much disadvantaged in this area, particularly since channeling seems to be more art than science.

 

Actually, the Seanchan find EVERY sul'dam and damane. Some character thinks briefly about the day in Seanchan that the testing happens, it's kind of like a a happy festival where all young girls are tested. First they are collared to see if a real sul'dam can sense their emotions, then the ones that pass (or fail?) are given the other end of the a'dam to see if they can sense the emotions of a damane.

 

I don't think that maximizing channeler potential is such a disadvantage for the Seanchan. That only becomes a problem of the Randlander forces also maximize their potential--i.e. have found ever leaner and sparker too. It's clear that until the present the AS at least do not do mandatory sweeps of the villages for novices. Basically, the numbers of effective channelers are less in Randland because they don't actively recruit, so even if the Seanchan rely only on sparkers they never lose wilders to the saidar-death so their are going to be more damane than effective channelers in Randland.

 

Perhaps the balance will shift to a more balanced number now that Randland has asha'man, but we can't forget the male a'dam...

 

In the end I feel that even if the raw numbers of channelers was roughly equal, the big tide-turning difference is that damane are soldiers trained and maintained all their lives for the purpose of war, and the channelers of Randland are civilians. The romance of women raising up arms to defend their family and children and selves with butcher knives like the wives of the Emond's Fielders has to be balanced by every other scene we are given of women who can channel coming against damane (save for the Wondergirls--who managed to be awesome).

[ajfurst]

Add in to why the Seanchan future shouldn't be is the 'flick' trick of opening the adam. Even if the knowledge Sul'dam can channel doesn't cause that to be re-evaluated, then if it's a battle the Seanchan should regularly finding their damane released.

 

Which from past encounters gives the choices of:

1. The damane turning on the Sul'dam (as happened in TGH at Falme)

2. Waiting to be re-collared

3. Lashing out at random.

 

Now if it's 1 or 3 the damane picks the Sul'dam are not just down a channeler, they are facing another enemy. The difference for the 'good' guys, being with 3 they are still a danger to them - but given the Seanchan are trying to either kill or collar them, they are certainly no worse off. At the least over time the Seanchan should be facing former damane as well, Alivia wouldn't be the only one, especially many 'Westland' damane freed would after time to be de-programmed, be happy to strike back at their jailers.

 

And if it's option 2, that still gives the Aes Sedai, Wise One, Asha'man, etc. the crucial second or two to put a lightning bolt or thread of fire through the Sul'dam's head or heart.

 

The second reason in addition to others listed it's unrealistic is a sul'dam / damane pair is obviously that. If the Seanchan open up a Gateway and Travel behind enemy lines, any enemy channeler knows what to attack and quickly. Asha'man or female channelers - using the now fairly common weave to hide their ability - can sneak / Travel in behind Seanchan lines and look like anyone else. The Asha'man in particular could already destroy large parts of the Seanchan forces in any city with a bit of common sense (why it hasn't been done of course). Take a couple of dozen Asha'man, dress them as Ebou Dari. Move to key points in Ebou Dar where there are crowds and start destroying Seanchan buildings/troops - but without waving hands or pointing at them. Just look like any other citizen trapped amongst chaos. Run when they run, walk where they walk. In a war with Travelling, where one side can hide in plain sight and the other can't, it's yet another reason why the Avi. future shouldn't be at all possible.

[babuada]

If they collar male channelers then your argument does not apply anymore

[ajfurst]

If they collar male channelers then your argument does not apply anymore

If they collar male channelers, or even currently with female channelers, they can do inverted weaves. Travel a force in, already holding inverted weaves like Nyn. and Cad's were in KOD and they can cause havoc. The damane can't detect them, so they can inflict many deaths. At best the sul'dam could then say everyone in the crowd has to wear a male or female adam. At which point since they can't be shielding a whole crowd, open up a gateway via inverted weaves, jump through and close behind. If they follow, even better, set up the other end as an ambush.

 

These ideas are barely scratching the surface of how a force that's not fighting with such an obvious hinderance should be able to defeat the Seanchan. I get for plot reasons, the 'flick' trick and these tactics haven't been used, but although I think I'd rather the Shadow win then the Seanchan, when a few minutes of thought can find numerous ways to win the war via guerilla tactics (without even considering men and women linked on the 'good guys' side or circles in general in a normal battle), the only thing swaying me towards the Seanchan winning being better, is how monumentally dumb and unimaginative the Westland forces have to be to allow it to happen. And hence how they'd deserve it.

[White_star]

If they collar male channelers then your argument does not apply anymore

 

I have wondered if/when Fortuona (I really don't like her new name I keep wanting to say fortuna ) would try that on Rand/or other male channeler in their next meeting. We haven't seen the reverse-control yet nor have we seen forkroot used on men.

[dwn]

Add in to why the Seanchan future shouldn't be is the 'flick' trick of opening the adam. Even if the knowledge Sul'dam can channel doesn't cause that to be re-evaluated, then if it's a battle the Seanchan should regularly finding their damane released.

 

Which from past encounters gives the choices of:

1. The damane turning on the Sul'dam (as happened in TGH at Falme)

2. Waiting to be re-collared

3. Lashing out at random.

 

Now if it's 1 or 3 the damane picks the Sul'dam are not just down a channeler, they are facing another enemy. The difference for the 'good' guys, being with 3 they are still a danger to them - but given the Seanchan are trying to either kill or collar them, they are certainly no worse off. At the least over time the Seanchan should be facing former damane as well, Alivia wouldn't be the only one, especially many 'Westland' damane freed would after time to be de-programmed, be happy to strike back at their jailers.

 

And if it's option 2, that still gives the Aes Sedai, Wise One, Asha'man, etc. the crucial second or two to put a lightning bolt or thread of fire through the Sul'dam's head or heart.

 

The second reason in addition to others listed it's unrealistic is a sul'dam / damane pair is obviously that. If the Seanchan open up a Gateway and Travel behind enemy lines, any enemy channeler knows what to attack and quickly. Asha'man or female channelers - using the now fairly common weave to hide their ability - can sneak / Travel in behind Seanchan lines and look like anyone else. The Asha'man in particular could already destroy large parts of the Seanchan forces in any city with a bit of common sense (why it hasn't been done of course). Take a couple of dozen Asha'man, dress them as Ebou Dari. Move to key points in Ebou Dar where there are crowds and start destroying Seanchan buildings/troops - but without waving hands or pointing at them. Just look like any other citizen trapped amongst chaos. Run when they run, walk where they walk. In a war with Travelling, where one side can hide in plain sight and the other can't, it's yet another reason why the Avi. future shouldn't be at all possible.

 

Another simple trick is to locate the damane kennels. Once that is done, eliminating or capturing the damane is a pretty trivial endeavour.

 

The only way I can see the Seanchan coming out on top is if the Aes Sedai, Asha'man, Wise Ones, Windfinders and Kin refuse to form even a mildly cohesive front against them. Yet everything we've seen has pointed to a gradual, if grudging, strengthening of ties between these groups. We're told the a'dam is so powerful, yet every bit of evidence we have shows damane succeeding only when used in overwhelming force against a disorganized group.

 

Aviendha's vision is bleak, and I can buy the later stages of it given the Aiel's likely refusal to adapt to a changing world. I can see the Raven Empire conquering many of the other nations, especially as weapon technology reduces the usefulness of channelling in battle. I can't see the leashing of channellers continuing as suggested.

 

-- dwn

[babuada]

If they collar male channelers then your argument does not apply anymore

 

I have wondered if/when Fortuona (I really don't like her new name I keep wanting to say fortuna ) would try that on Rand/or other male channeler in their next meeting. We haven't seen the reverse-control yet nor have we seen forkroot used on men.

I would like that. Tuon collars Rand. Then Rand binds Tuon with reverse Bond. How cool that would be :)

[f3llyn]

What's a reverse bond?

[dwn]

What's a reverse bond?

 

They mean the effect of the Domination Band. Over time, the man begins to get control over the woman wearing the bracelets. Sharing the bracelets between two women is supposed to slow down the effect.

 

-- dwn

[Ltsegarra]

As I stated I. The "Aviendha" thread. Aviendhas and the aiels future is "bad" due to the fact that they created a war with the Seachan. The Seachan continued reliance o. The adman is due to them constantly need to fight and protect themselves. Part of the vision shows that they consider Andor the largest threat due to both the Whitetower and Ashaman being on her "side". Furthermore the vision foretells Egwene error in attacking the Seachan to "free" the leashed ones.

Rands peace is the only solution and treaty that "works"and both the white tower and Aiel break it in their own way causing their own destruction. I'm almost sure "Rands Peace" lets the Seachan keep the lands they already own..most of those lands were in a terrible spot as described anyway. Jordan alludes to a peaceful existence under Seachan rule with the one exception being channelers. However, the dilemma of the Sul'damane and adman if allowed to play out will inevitably resolve itself...if all channels need to be chained and all Sul'damane can channel..what's the purpose of sul'damanes then? An what about an empress that can channel..do you think she'll allow herself to be chained? No I didn't think so.

The one thing that will keep that important part of the Seachan culture going is a "foretold" war with the white tower first, and Aiel Second. If left alone, not only would damane be abolished but the whole "blood"/monarchy model fall. Tuon can channel yet she's a goddess or whatever.

I like one of the poster idea of the "fox medallions" being mass produced protecting people from the fear of channeled, however I think it will protect Elyane and Andor first and foremost, reach a position of equality and safety from Seachan channelers. Once on equal footing, dialogue and "Rands Peace" likely to work.

[Cornelia]

The Seanchan´s one and only solution to problems is war. So they are very skilled in fighting and so on, but know next to nothing about peaceful solutions and negotiations, perfectly shown in the meeting between Rand and Tuon.

 

So what would happen if the Aiel find a peaceful solution (driven by Aviendha)? How many channelers would the Seanchan be able to leash in the future? Next to none! Because the parents of each boy and girl would go to the White Tower before the child reaches the critical age when the Seanchan come around with their blasted leashes... I don´t think Randland parents would like their daughter being leashed as it is obviously in Seanchan.

 

The Seanchan are obliged to hold the Dragon´s peace, so for the first time they will have to watch a peaceful community. And perhaps they will see that war is not the only possible solution.

 

The next step, of course, is technology. And it´s also an alternative to the whole damane business. In Aviendha´s visions in Rhuidean it occurred to me that the first two or three didn´t mention anything about channelers. Nothing about damane or Aes Sedai. OK, the White Tower has fallen, but where are the channelers? Perhaps they simply got replaced by much more effective technology. No need for them anymore, so perhaps they got killed on discovery for a few decades. Then all the means of discovering channelers were gone... and the only thing left are memories that become legend, legend fades to myth ... do I need to say more? Channeling in an age of technology will be seen as some kind of trick or magic and nobody will take it for real, until the age that gave birth to the myth comes again!

[Dunedain Fal]

Edarra on page 319 that "the Seanchan have chained the Wise Ones. Not just the Shaido, who deserve their fate." I cannot recall any event or scenario where Rand's Aiel would have tangle with the Seanchan. The only Aiel that the Seanchan encountered are the Shaido Aiel. So am I correct in surmising that Edarra meant the Shaido Wise Ones only that have been chained?

[Zodd]

What if the Seanchan were to get a hold of the a'dam Elayne made for controling Moghedien?

[Jon Paul]

I just don't want Rand to have to kneel to the Empress. It wont be a sign of humility on Rand's part but rather it will be adding fuel to the fire that is Imperial arrogance.