Discuss Egwene

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Now answer me this: If Egwene was just going to send Perrin back to his dream, why would she say, "I'm sorry, Perrn. I'll be back for you." That phrasing clearly indicates that she will be leaving, while he will be...staying. Not going elsewhere, or back to his dream. Staying.

 

If that isn't what Sanderson intended to convey, then it is BAD writing.

 

Given the choice between believing Sanderson to be a sloppy writer (which I don't believe he is), or believing him excessively PC (which I know he is), I'll go with the latter.

 

Because Perrin COULD NOT be sent back into his own dream. There was a dreamspike in the area, you know, which prevents people from leaving Tel'aran'rhoid. Egwene intended to keep him somewhere she thought would be safe because she thought Perrin had stumbled into Tel'aran'rhoid by chance. She was wrong of course, but she didn't know that.

 

Anyway, if you had read the previous pages (which I strongly suggest you do...) I think its mentioned that Brandon admitted that he had mussed up that general bit.

[FarShainMael]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

[David Selig]

If anyone is offended by my previous post, I apologise. It was a joke, apparently a bad one and I didn't mean to imply anything sexist.

[Jon Paul]

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

It's pretty much the only answer I can think of for one of the supposed good-guys in the story being so.. not good.

[FarShainMael]

If anyone is offended by my previous post, I apologise. It was a joke, apparently a bad one and I didn't mean to imply anything sexist.

 

Accepted! See, I've even put my seven-striped dress on..

[pghrob]

This is just a thought, but...

Everyone speaks of the epiphanies that the Two River folk have gone through. Rand has come to peace with his personalities, Nynaeve has broken her block and made great strides in the medical field, Matt has become a true leader, and Perrin is at peace with his inner wolf. Meanwhile Egwene has had no or very little self reflection.

Out of all the the above she is also the youngest. She was born at the focal point of 3 ta'veren. Is it possible that Egwene is exactly what Rand, Matt and Perrin need her to be?

[DragonEmpire]

greetings. new poster here. just wanted to say that i've never been the biggest egwene fan nota hter,just dont like her . and these are my biggest problems with her in TOM iviting ELAYNEbattle in Tar. thats just plain stupid a) elayne is pregant-so shes just not putting her life in danger but also that of her unborn children,and to add to this point,she suspects that Elayne is bonded to Rand, so shes also putting the life of the Dragon at risk. i know some of you will say that elayne puts herself foolishly at risk many times on her own,which is true. but we can assume she was asked/commded by the Amrylin. point 2) assuming that just because Darlin and co came to the FOM, that they are automatically her troops to command.ARROGANCE. i think Dyelin said it best back in LOC . " to listen to aes sedai is not to obey" she just assumes they are hers to command. i get the feeling taht Darlin said " i will listen to what you have to say, but i still follow the Dragon" and a smaller issue . Point 3) she knows the Seanchan have Travelling, but does not tell Darlin and co of this fact. that reeks of negligence. i doubt the gatherd Monarchs would be that enthusiatsic to bring such a large number of troops if they were aware of this fact, and she leaves this fact out through creative manipulation of the truth.

[DragonEmpire]

I meant invting ELAYNE. oops

[Mystraka]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

 

Well said.... This exceprt makes Egwene look even more arrogant.

[jsbrads]

She was great as the underdog, working with the novices, standing up to Aes Sedai.

Now, eh.

[randsc]

Now answer me this: If Egwene was just going to send Perrin back to his dream, why would she say, "I'm sorry, Perrn. I'll be back for you." That phrasing clearly indicates that she will be leaving, while he will be...staying. Not going elsewhere, or back to his dream. Staying.

 

If that isn't what Sanderson intended to convey, then it is BAD writing.

 

Given the choice between believing Sanderson to be a sloppy writer (which I don't believe he is), or believing him excessively PC (which I know he is), I'll go with the latter.

 

Because Perrin COULD NOT be sent back into his own dream. There was a dreamspike in the area, you know, which prevents people from leaving Tel'aran'rhoid. Egwene intended to keep him somewhere she thought would be safe because she thought Perrin had stumbled into Tel'aran'rhoid by chance. She was wrong of course, but she didn't know that.

 

Anyway, if you had read the previous pages (which I strongly suggest you do...) I think its mentioned that Brandon admitted that he had mussed up that general bit.

 

 

Check out who wrote the third post in this thread (which I strongly suggest you do...), the one that has resulted in the most back and forth. As well as a dozen others

 

And that "admission" in no way disproves my thesis.

[FarShainMael]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

 

Well said.... This exceprt makes Egwene look even more arrogant.

 

But it's now an arrogance that is truly extraordinary, verging on the megalomaniac. I can't believe it's natural.

[randsc]

A few points on the "Egwene needs to get laid" thing:

 

1. It was obviously a joke. The reaction was predictable, which is the reason for the "wait while I get some popcorn" feel of the posts immediately following;

 

2. It really is true, in my experience, that sex results in greater empathy towards others;

 

3. Anyone who doesn't believe that never having sex doesn't warp ones perspective on the opposite sex hasn't spent as much time as I have with Catholic nuns (Another joke! Don't freak out! But also, to quote Homer Simpson, "It's funny because it's true!")

 

As for the spluttering, riddle me this: Would you find it objectionable if Beslan had taken a shine to Elayne, and had kept her confined to his rooms, where he repeatly tied her up and raped her at knifepoint? If Mat were to find that situation amusing, would you be able to stomach Mat as a character? Why would you not find it objectionable when the names are reversed? Would you find it objectionable if Elayne were later to consider wearing a scarf in the same color as the ropes used to bind her, as a tribute to Beslan? For that matter, and to bring this back to Egwene, would you find it objectionable if Gawyn could enter T'A'R, and routinely sought out Egwene's dreams so that he could enter them and engage in sex with her without her knowledge?

 

I'd have a lot more sympathy for people's gender-based sensitivities if there weren't such a giant double standard at work.

[randsc]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

 

Well said.... This exceprt makes Egwene look even more arrogant.

 

But it's now an arrogance that is truly extraordinary, verging on the megalomaniac. I can't believe it's natural.

 

 

I think this thread has officially gotten too long, since this exact point has already been discussed at some length, starting on the very first page.

[lordofsoup]

Egwene needs to be put in her place. She thinks that she can manipulate anyone, and is arrogant to believe that everyone will follow her just because she is Aes Sedai.

[randsc]

Hmmm, it will be interesting to see how the phrase, "Put in her place" goes over.

 

Wait while I get some popcorn.

[blazetheearth]

Hmmm, it will be interesting to see how the phrase, "Put in her place" goes over.

 

Wait while I get some popcorn.

 

ROFPML!!! :laugh: :laugh:

[FarShainMael]

I'm on my third readthrough of ToM, and my eyebrows went up at this passage:

 

Nynaeve has been around him {Rand} too much, Egwene thought. She was likely caught up by his ta'veren nature. The Pattern bent around him. Those near him would begin to see things his way, would work - unconsciously - to see his will done.

 

That had to be the explanation. Normally, Nynaeve was so levelheaded about these sorts of things. Or... well, Nynaeve wasn't exactly levelheaded, really. But she generally did see the right way things needed to be done, as long as that right way didn't involve her being wrong.

 

Egwene appears to be saying that she's in the right, and it's the Pattern that's got it wrong.. I think Aran'gar / Halima did an effective job on her.

 

 

Well said.... This exceprt makes Egwene look even more arrogant.

 

But it's now an arrogance that is truly extraordinary, verging on the megalomaniac. I can't believe it's natural.

 

 

I think this thread has officially gotten too long, since this exact point has already been discussed at some length, starting on the very first page.

 

You did indeed mention this in your point 6; but our opinions differ as to its cause. I think (correct me if wrong) that you think it's Eg's own overblown natural arrogance; whereas I don't think it's natural at all, but the result of Aran'gar's manipulation.

[randsc]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

 

That is the reason for this line:

 

"So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else."

[FarShainMael]

Hmmm, it will be interesting to see how the phrase, "Put in her place" goes over.

 

If you mean sexually, it is exactly at that point that it ceases to be a joke. Do you really think that using sex to put someone 'in their place', using it as a punishment, a means of enforcing a particular behaviour, regardless of which sex is doing the putting, is likely to result in 'greater empathy' between them?

[FarShainMael]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

 

That is the reason for this line:

 

"So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else."

 

Noted. And you're right; this thread has gone on too long, and got itself bogged down in sexual politics. I think I shall leave it at that point.

[randsc]

Where do you get sex out of that?

 

What I am sure lordofsoup meant is the common meaning of the phrase. Which is that someone will be brought down a peg or two.

 

I am also aware that the phrase is likely to be considered loaded by those particularly inclined to take offense.

 

It really isn't even gender related, never mind sexual. Men can be, "put in their place." In fact, I think someone referred to what Elayne did to Perrin in those terms.

 

Everything isn't an affront to your gender. But many are incapable of seeing that, which is why I wanted to get some popcorn.

[blazetheearth]

Hmmm, it will be interesting to see how the phrase, "Put in her place" goes over.

 

If you mean sexually, it is exactly at that point that it ceases to be a joke. Do you really think that using sex to put someone 'in their place', using it as a punishment, a means of enforcing a particular behaviour, regardless of which sex is doing the putting, is likely to result in 'greater empathy' between them?

 

Personally, when I read the original quote (re: Post by Lord of Soup) my first thought was that His Soupness meant barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, but the rest of the statement makes it clear that he meant being taken down a peg or two (or 20) so that she can see how arrogant she has become and correct it.

 

But I thought randsc comment was meant to say "Weellllll, let's see how the posters here interpret this statement, because it will show how sexist the people that reply to it are."

 

Just my humble opinion and interpretation of the comments.

[David Selig]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I know better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

[randsc]

No, I think ALL of the examples of Egwene's arrogance I listed were caused or at least contributed to by compulsion.

I don't think so. She was extremely arrogant long before she met Halima. The whole "I know better than anyone, especially Rand" attitude was dispalyed by her time and time again before she become Amyrlin.

 

But I think it has gotten worse, hence the "contributed to."

 

But I agree that the character has always shown some objectionable qualities.