Cyndane

[csarmi]

None of these is a clear proof of her supposedly evil nature, in that each of them can be plausibly explained in other ways.

There is nothing else about her that suggests an evil person...

 

Yet, people frighten their children with me. What you say makes her a psychopath, at best.

 

My second observation is that we never heard the sane Lews Therin. The real Lews Therin in the prologue of the series was first completely insane, and then, after being healed by Ishamael, overwrought with grief. The Lews Therin in Rand's mind was undoubtedly completely insane for his entire presence in the series. We've never gotten a point of view from a sane Lews Therin Telamon.

 

Untrue. Lews Therin was not mad, when he died, and even if he had been, it wouldn't have mattered - his soul started clean again. The Lews Therin in Rand's mind had his madness from Rand himself, if any. He was a construct anyway...

[AutomatedTeller]

13x13 includes Myrddraal, which didn't exist when the Bore was drilled. She was drilling to get access to the Dark One's power... and then she got it.

 

I see no reason to think she was turned or that she didn't embrace the Dark One on her own.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Everybody we suspect of undergoing a 13x13 type of transformation ends up 'off'.

 

We've never seen what Mierin looks like "on." The closest we've got is Lews Therin's account. Lews Therin has been insane for the entire series, and is heavily biased when it comes to Mierin--because they were lovers and because they have a lot in common.

 

Not only that but Lanfear schemed (even from her own pov) of usurping the DO with Rand. Doesn't seem likely from somebody turned to serve the DO.

 

On the contrary, this is one of the more solid points of evidence. Mierin really was interested in power; that much is true. Many people are, and only some of those are villains. Her original ambition was for women and men to work together without the divisions of saidin and saidar, in order to achieve greater heights. Only Lanfear spoke of overthrowing the Dark One and challenging the Creator. If Mierin had been forcibly turned to the Shadow, it would go a long way toward explaining how the former ambition could have evolved into the latter. Because, remember, being turned doesn't mean automatic fealty to the Dark One, which Lanfear never possessed. Being turned to the Shadow means that an individual's humanitarian side, their humility, their sense of perspective all get suppressed, while their overconfidence swells. In other words, they're more likely to turn to the Shadow, because the Shadow apparently appreciates destructive and self-defeating personalities (perhaps because the Dark One seeks to unweave the Pattern and is attracted to chaos in every form).

 

We know that a long time passed between the drilling of the Bore and Mierin's vow of allegiance to the Shadow. Look at it from her point of view: You're trying to improve yourself and the world, and instead you unleash supreme evil. Then you're turned to the Shadow and are deprived of many of your redeeming qualities and good judgment. Oh, and don't forget that everybody hates you for ruining the world. What would you do?

 

Finally, why would Meirin's 'soul' look like Cyndane if it were being tormented by the DO for age after age.

 

That's a fair question, and we don't know the answer yet. There are a number of possible answers, most of which do not preclude the possibility that Mierin was turned to the Shadow. It could be that a person with a broken will doesn't care what body she appears with in TAR, and simply came with the one she had. It could be that Mierin actually used to look like Cyndane. It could be that she is unable to appear in her true form, or it could be that she thinks Cyndane's body has become her true form.

 

~~~

Lews Therin was not mad, when he died, and even if he had been, it wouldn't have mattered - his soul started clean again.

 

What are you talking about? His "healing" was brought about by Ishamael, of all people. In this sorry state, LTT learned that he had killed his own family. Then he committed suicide. That's not madness?

 

The Lews Therin in Rand's mind had his madness from Rand himself, if any. He was a construct anyway...

 

Debatable, but ultimately irrelevant. Lews Therin's practical information, perspective, and advice all came through the lens of a madman. Whether it was LTT's madness or Rand'sthe Lews Therin voice, and everything it said, was insane.

 

~~~

13x13 includes Myrddraal, which didn't exist when the Bore was drilled.

 

That's a good point, but it doesn't lead to your conclusion. Mierin turned to the Shadow a long time after the drilling of the Bore. In that time, Aginor may have done his dirty deeds and helped create the monsters to bring Mierin over.

 

Also, do you really think that the 13x13 trick is the only way to turn someone to the Shadow? Would there be no such thing as forcible turning without human creations? Could a fade do what the Dark One cannot? Even if Mierin's turning wasn't a classic 13x13 (which may or may not be the case), the underlying possibility of forcible turning is still out there.

 

She was drilling to get access to the Dark One's power... and then she got it.

 

She had no idea that it was the Dark One's essence. She only knew that it was an independent power source from the One Power.

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, we've seen Cyndane's POV back in WH and she's still the same crazy-assed bitch she always was as Lanfear. She's been mind-trapped for her failures just like Moggy was but, like Moggy, that hasn't changed her basic personality.

 

SH said to Graendal that someone else had been given the chance to come after Rand and then a few pages later, there's Lanfear in Rand's dream acting like a damsel in distress, despite that being absolutely nothing like her. It's clearly a trap.

[mbuehner]

We've never seen what Mierin looks like "on." The closest we've got is Lews Therin's account. Lews Therin has been insane for the entire series, and is heavily biased when it comes to Mierin--because they were lovers and because they have a lot in common.

 

Not really my point- those that have been turned are noticeably creepy... and seemingly incapable of not being. That doesn't sound like any of the incarnations of Lanfear at all... certainly not the Selene that enchanted a young Rand. The 13x13s remind me of something out of Desperation. I'd argue the inherent creepiness keeps 13x13 from being a more widely used weapon... its just not very useful for infiltration. For instance you could 13x13 an Amyrlin Seat (perhaps it was even done), but how long would it take the white tower to either figure it out or just not be willing to deal with her?

 

If Mierin had been forcibly turned to the Shadow, it would go a long way toward explaining how the former ambition could have evolved into the latter.

 

Being a person willing to betray the world and become Forsaken would go a long way as well. For that matter is there any reason not to suggest every one of the Forsaken was so transformed?

 

Because, remember, being turned doesn't mean automatic fealty to the Dark One, which Lanfear never possessed. Being turned to the Shadow means that an individual's humanitarian side, their humility, their sense of perspective all get suppressed, while their overconfidence swells.

 

Is that cannon or your interpretation?

 

We know that a long time passed between the drilling of the Bore and Mierin's vow of allegiance to the Shadow. Look at it from her point of view: You're trying to improve yourself and the world, and instead you unleash supreme evil. Then you're turned to the Shadow and are deprived of many of your redeeming qualities and good judgment. Oh, and don't forget that everybody hates you for ruining the world. What would you do?

 

If that's the case... where does this lost soul being tormented by the DO for several ages come in? You can't have it both ways- either Mierin had her innate goodness ripped away from her and continued on as Lanfear, or her soul was imprisoned and replaced by a soul devoid of goodness.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Not really my point- those that have been turned are noticeably creepy... and seemingly incapable of not being.

 

That is a good point, and it does make the idea of a classic 13x13 turning for Mierin less plausible, all else being equal, but it doesn't rule out other or more effective versions of turning.

 

If Mierin had been forcibly turned to the Shadow, it would go a long way toward explaining how the former ambition could have evolved into the latter.

 

Being a person willing to betray the world and become Forsaken would go a long way as well.

 

I don't think so. The other Forsaken, except Ishy, saw the Shadow as either a vehicle to self-aggrandizement or a way to have vengeance on the world. Even the most power-desiring of them doesn't suggest any desire to overthrow the Dark One altogether. Lanfear's purposes seemed entirely different from the rest.

 

Is that cannon or your interpretation?

 

It was something RJ said. The exact quote ab out 13x13 is floating around in one of these threads.

 

If that's the case... where does this lost soul being tormented by the DO for several ages come in? You can't have it both ways- either Mierin had her innate goodness ripped away from her and continued on as Lanfear, or her soul was imprisoned and replaced by a soul devoid of goodness.

 

What's the deal with the dream scene? That's one of the exciting questions we'll have to wait for AMoL to find out about.

[TheAngryDruid]

Good discussion. I want to comment on some of the specific points, but first a larger idea.

 

The title of the last book, "A Memory of Light." I have always thought this would mean a memory from LTT, and this may well be true. But the title could also be seen to be an accurate description from someone who used to walk in the light, but now doesn't. All they have is a memory or light, because now they serve the Shadow. I think that a "memory of light" from a DF (or perhaps more than one) will be a significant factor in the final book. And Lanfear, with her knowledge of the Bore and a desire to overthrow the DO not shown in any other Forsaken, seems the most likely candidate. Further, in Graendal's POV in Writings (Ch. 5), she remembers her feelings taking those first few steps to the Shadow and feeling foolish pain. As did Moridin. And nearly all the chosen, save those like Semirhage. Point being, it seems to be Graendal's own memory of light. And she sees confirmation in Moridin's eyes that he remembers also. I think their memories of light are foreshadowing for another.

 

We know that Lanfear fits the Greandal/Moridin mold, and not the Semirhage one, from Rand's trip through the columns. As pointed out, she doesn't employ some of the Shadow's fouler creatures like Gray Men, or kill w/out cause. Not to say she's a nice person, but not corrupt to the bone like Semirhage. And her love for LTT does seem genuine.

 

She mysteriously survived the Bore exploding. She mysteriously is max-hot and max-one power strength. Brandon recently refused to say Lanfear wasn't under any "shenanigans." I like most others, was thinking something in Finland to account for her OP strength and/or beauty + the certainly that no one could be stronger than her at the cleansing. But what if the "shenanigans" are more along a 13x13 line? As pointed out earlier, RJ's description would seem to fit what she's become (and not Tarna and Mezar). And she would have been a big feather in the DO's hat.

 

Yes, not much evidence, and only a feeling, but it is fun to explore it.

 

As for the dream, put me in the camp that says Rand is seeing through the Moridin link somehow. It would explain why he sees her as Cyndane and not Lanfear, and why she didn't need to break down his wards. I'd also point out that it didn't take too long for Aran'gar's self image to be that of a woman, instead of a man.

 

I'm still confused on why she's being punished, she seems to have performed admirably at the cleansing and since the mindtrap. Better than Moggy, for sure. If this was her "last chance" why isn't she just dead. Maybe it is what has been happening to Moggy/Lanfear all along, and is nothing new.

[ElevenAces]

From TGH,

 

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Who shall stand against her coming?

The Shining Walls shall kneel.

 

"Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still."

 

Maybe the dream thing is just this prophecy being fully realized ... Rand hasn't died, yet he has served her already, there may be some more service in his future.

[didymos]

Mierin was not forcefully turned to the Shadow, and definitely NOT due to the whole Bore disaster:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

I've said it before: she was just a bad person. It's that simple.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Ugh. Well, that's that, then. Her scene in ToM really gave me the impression that she'd been turned somehow.

[Zorlon]

Well, unless there's some really obscure semantic game being played, I was mistaken. I admit it.

 

Good find.

[Vemynal]

I can't remember where or in what book but there's a PoV from Cyndane where she's talking about how LTT had spurned her for the last time and that her only goal now was vengeance and to cause him as much suffering as possible.

 

Really doesn't seem like the type to be earning, or seeking, redemption

 

I smell a trap

[didymos]

I can't remember where or in what book but there's a PoV from Cyndane where she's talking about how LTT had spurned her for the last time and that her only goal now was vengeance and to cause him as much suffering as possible.

 

WH, during the Cleansing.

[Crael123]

Okay just letting you guys know... there is no way that Lanfear or any of the forsaken really were forcibly turned. Mynadraal had not come into existence yet.

[Sharaman]

Apart from anything else, Lanfear gets orgasmic in the Stone when she talks about being bathed in HIS radiance at Shayol Ghul.

She's always been a nasty piece of work.

She's also the Last Chance the Shadow has to turn Rand after VoG.

It seems like a good ploy - the FS know LTT has this peculiar problem hurting women and Cyndi apparently racked with pain is bound to elicit a reaction.

[didymos]

Okay just letting you guys know... there is no way that Lanfear or any of the forsaken really were forcibly turned. Mynadraal had not come into existence yet.

 

I've never bought the idea myself, but the problem with that argument is that it presumes that is the only way to do it and not just the only known way. Technically, we already do know of another method: Semirhage's time-consuming and old-fashioned use of brainwashing and torture.

[nolirion]

Okay just letting you guys know... there is no way that Lanfear or any of the forsaken really were forcibly turned. Mynadraal had not come into existence yet.

 

I've never bought the idea myself, but the problem with that argument is that it presumes that is the only way to do it and not just the only known way. Technically, we already do know of another method: Semirhage's time-consuming and old-fashioned use of brainwashing and torture.

I assume You speak about Myrddraal who are offspring of Trolloc or at least they came from the production of Trolloc which where created by aginor in the AoL.

 

But as said previously Lanfear was not turn to the shadow by force or brainwashing , only promises of power lure her in the Hand of the DO.

She was a malevolent force in the AoL she as not change since then

[didymos]

Okay just letting you guys know... there is no way that Lanfear or any of the forsaken really were forcibly turned. Mynadraal had not come into existence yet.

 

I've never bought the idea myself, but the problem with that argument is that it presumes that is the only way to do it and not just the only known way. Technically, we already do know of another method: Semirhage's time-consuming and old-fashioned use of brainwashing and torture.

I assume You speak about Myrddraal who are offspring of Trolloc or at least they came from the production of Trolloc which where created by aginor in the AoL.

 

No, the person I was responding to was speaking of them.

 

But as said previously Lanfear was not turn to the shadow by force or brainwashing , only promises of power lure her in the Hand of the DO.

 

I know: I'm the one who said it. Or more precisely, RJ did and I quoted him. My point was that you can't assume the 13x13 method is the only possible way to force someone to the Shadow by, for lack of a better term, "magical" means. I'm not arguing that Lanfear was forced. She was not. I'm simply saying you can't be sure it wasn't possible without readily-available myrddraal. All we can say is that it did not happen.

[TheAngryDruid]

Mierin was not forcefully turned to the Shadow, and definitely NOT due to the whole Bore disaster:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

I've said it before: she was just a bad person. It's that simple.

 

Well, there goes my "shenanigans" idea. I still think she'll play a big role in the final book, and could help the light (for her own self interest or other reasons).

[capuga]

Mierin was not forcefully turned to the Shadow, and definitely NOT due to the whole Bore disaster:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

I've said it before: she was just a bad person. It's that simple.

 

Well, there goes my "shenanigans" idea. I still think she'll play a big role in the final book, and could help the light (for her own self interest or other reasons).

 

I could see this happening. I don't think Lanfear would turn back to the light (because I think she is a nasty person) but I could definitely see her betraying the Dark One for her own self interest.

[griz]

Mierin was not forcefully turned to the Shadow, and definitely NOT due to the whole Bore disaster:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

 

Week 12 Question: Who was Beidomon, who helped Lanfear with the project that lead to the drilling of the Bore? Did he figure in the later events at the end of the Age of Legends?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Beidomon was a male Aes Sedai, and a research genius, who believed that they were onto something great. The drilling of the Bore itself caused great damage, and Beidomon, Lanfear and others involved were blamed for that. Once it became clear what had actually happened, the opprobrium increased, and Beidomon sought obscurity, finally committing suicide when he was unable to achieve it. Everyone knew his name, and what he had done. He had nowhere to hide.

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

I've said it before: she was just a bad person. It's that simple.

 

Well, there goes my "shenanigans" idea. I still think she'll play a big role in the final book, and could help the light (for her own self interest or other reasons).

 

I could see this happening. I don't think Lanfear would turn back to the light (because I think she is a nasty person) but I could definitely see her betraying the Dark One for her own self interest.

 

 

Maybe she could turn into a Gollum type of disaster at the end of the book to win it for the good guys?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I hope her ending isn't so formulaic as that. We don't have a good track record in terms of the satisfaction factor on Forsaken deaths so far, but BS has the opportunity to score some major points by giving Lanfear's plotline an ending that doesn't involve a typical cheap Forsaken death or a typical Gollum / Asriel sacrifice. Maybe she'll even live through the end of the series. That'd be something!

 

At any rate, it seems as though RJ has closed the door on Lanfear being redeemed in any fashion. I'm still not persuaded that her appearance in Rand's dream is a trap of her own making, or a trap at all for that matter. I guess I'll have to wait the sixteen months to find out. =(

[Guest Nephy]

An observation that might have nothing to do with this topic at all: Page 726, during Aviendha's flashbacks.

 

"The other four looked at her. She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off."

 

Does this refer to the quadruplets that Aviendha has, or children from Aviendha, Min, Elayne, and one other woman (Lanfear)? At first I assumed the children of Aviendha, but after the epilogue I'm not so sure anymore. It would be almost fitting that one of the people who ripped open the Bore in the first place helps reseal it.

[Random Man]

An observation that might have nothing to do with this topic at all: Page 726, during Aviendha's flashbacks.

 

"The other four looked at her. She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off."

 

Does this refer to the quadruplets that Aviendha has, or children from Aviendha, Min, Elayne, and one other woman (Lanfear)? At first I assumed the children of Aviendha, but after the epilogue I'm not so sure anymore. It would be almost fitting that one of the people who ripped open the Bore in the first place helps reseal it.

Pretty sure that refers to the four Aiel lines from Avi's four children. We know that all four of them survive to adulthood (at least in Avi's visions). That passage was from at least three generations in the future -- at that point her quadruplets would have separate lines. The later POV from Oncala, Avi's granddaughter, shows that she didn't think much of the Dragon lineage in Elayne's granddaughter, so I don't see why future generations of Aiel would have reflected on any non-Aiel lineage at that point. Don't think it has anything to do with Lanfear.

[nolirion]

Okay just letting you guys know... there is no way that Lanfear or any of the forsaken really were forcibly turned. Mynadraal had not come into existence yet.

 

I've never bought the idea myself, but the problem with that argument is that it presumes that is the only way to do it and not just the only known way. Technically, we already do know of another method: Semirhage's time-consuming and old-fashioned use of brainwashing and torture.

I assume You speak about Myrddraal who are offspring of Trolloc or at least they came from the production of Trolloc which where created by aginor in the AoL.

 

No, the person I was responding to was speaking of them.

 

But as said previously Lanfear was not turn to the shadow by force or brainwashing , only promises of power lure her in the Hand of the DO.

 

I know: I'm the one who said it. Or more precisely, RJ did and I quoted him. My point was that you can't assume the 13x13 method is the only possible way to force someone to the Shadow by, for lack of a better term, "magical" means. I'm not arguing that Lanfear was forced. She was not. I'm simply saying you can't be sure it wasn't possible without readily-available myrddraal. All we can say is that it did not happen.

It was a reply to Crael1123 quoting you was just a way to be in the continuity of your point .