Asmodean

[firstfishman]

Didnt read through the previous posts on this thread.

 

 

I think RJ said, "The DO couldnt bring back Asmo due to the location he was wtfpwned." (Paraphraseing)

 

Maybe it was due to his proximity to Avendasora... (My spelling sucks)

 

With all the talk on the tree of life, could it have some part to play in the last battle? It has been talked about a lot for having nothing to do with the story...

 

Maybe Loial will sing a kick ass long handle for his power wrought axe? Ok, this last part was a stretch....

[PatsNats28]

asmo was killed in caemlyn tho

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

 

I think he meant the glossary. It wasn't until chapter 5 that Moridin dropped the big hint (the "becoming a habit" bit and asking if she was claiming Aran'gar was a traitor), and it wasn't until Mesaana was (mostly) dead that Shaidar Haran explicitly said she was responsible for the loss of three Chosen.

 

Never mentioned by name though, and Graendal was always afraid that the DO would know about her part in Sammael's death (driving him at Rand against the DO's instructions then sitting back and watching it unfold) so if Asmodean is included this would make 4 chosen, not 3.

 

There is no reason to think that is was chosen who did it. Only needed to be someone Asmo knew on sight, and since we have no idea how many people he knew - could be anyone. My vote is Verin.

 

You need to get out your copy of ToM and look in the Glossary under the entry "Graendal." I think you will find some interesting information therein.

[didymos]

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

 

Sometime after the Prologue of tGS when Rand drops the sul'dam off by Ebou Dar after capturing Semirhage and his next appearance when he's already settled in his mansion in Arad Doman. All we know is some "scholars" found it and brought it to him.

[naath]

3. Graendal: 1 Kill (Asmo); 1 Assist (Aran'gar)

 

Even Mesaana wouldn't have happened w/out Graendal (though she didn't consciously help). Still, every Chosen's permanent removal from the field has been accomplished with Chosen/DF/DO aid, except for Be'lal.

 

Shaidar Haran counts 3 for Graendal; so I think she should have 2 Assists :-)

 

(I spent waaaaay too much time trying to remember all of this list btw; trying to count 3 so thanks for writing it out all neat)

[didymos]

3. Graendal: 1 Kill (Asmo); 1 Assist (Aran'gar)

 

Even Mesaana wouldn't have happened w/out Graendal (though she didn't consciously help). Still, every Chosen's permanent removal from the field has been accomplished with Chosen/DF/DO aid, except for Be'lal.

 

Shaidar Haran counts 3 for Graendal; so I think she should have 2 Assists :-)

 

 

SH merely holds her responsible for three Chosen being lost, and he doesn't actually credit her with three kills. He knows full well she didn't deliberately break Mesaana or even purposefully interfere with her. He's pissed that she didn't keep enough of an eye on things and simply left Slayer to do the bulk of the work, which allowed Perrin to abscond with the dreamspike, which then ruined the plan to handle the White Tower. He doesn't really care about her intent at all. So who really gets the assist there? Graendal? Slayer? Perrin? If anyone, it should be Perrin, because he's the one who actually chose to take the thing to Tar Valon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

3. Graendal: 1 Kill (Asmo); 1 Assist (Aran'gar)

 

Even Mesaana wouldn't have happened w/out Graendal (though she didn't consciously help). Still, every Chosen's permanent removal from the field has been accomplished with Chosen/DF/DO aid, except for Be'lal.

 

Shaidar Haran counts 3 for Graendal; so I think she should have 2 Assists :-)

 

 

SH merely holds her responsible for three Chosen being lost, and he doesn't actually credit her with three kills. He knows full well she didn't deliberately break Mesaana or even purposefully interfere with her. He's pissed that she didn't keep enough of an eye on things and simply left Slayer to do the bulk of the work, which allowed Perrin to abscond with the dreamspike, which then ruined the plan to handle the White Tower. He doesn't really care about her intent at all. So who really gets the assist there? Graendal? Slayer? Perrin? If anyone, it should be Perrin, because he's the one who actually chose to take the thing to Tar Valon.

 

It's a weird accounting.

 

Shaidar Haran seems to hold her accountable for Asmodean, Aran'gar, and Mesaana. She was at least as responsible for Sammael as she was for Mesaana. More even, since she deliberately maneuvered Sam onto the course he took.

 

Seems likely that if she had had a more personal involvement with the Dreamspike, Team Light would have bagged two Forsaken instead of just one.

 

But, these are the Gad Guys, their accounting doesn't have to make sense.

[didymos]

 

Shaidar Haran seems to hold her accountable for Asmodean, Aran'gar, and Mesaana. She was at least as responsible for Sammael as she was for Mesaana. More even, since she deliberately maneuvered Sam onto the course he took.

 

Well, obviously, he doesn't know she's the one who talked Sammael into it. SH/DO doesn't know everything.

[Mr Ares]

Asmodean 100% can be resurrected. It's just that The Dark One does not want to.

 

I know this because Robert Jordan told me at a book signing (for #8) after I asked if Asmodean was going to be resurrected or not. I totally expected a RAFO (i mean, he has a poster of himself with RAFO in huge letters under it right above him at all signings), but instead he put down the pen and said Asmodean was "a cat that tried to cross the tracks and failed". He then explained that he was dead and the Dark One would not be bringing him back. "So he's finished?" I asked.

 

"He's finished."

 

Some guy was taking notes at the time and later I saw this quoted in some faq, but I'm always surprised to see it still comes down to debate. But I'm also happy because as a wot-nerd, it's my one shining moment with RJ ;)

 

Yeah, you do realize he didn't directly address whether or not he could be resurrected, right? He neatly avoided it while confirming that Asmo was nonetheless staying dead. Later, however, he did address it directly:

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Couldn't bring him back.

Further to this, it says in the books that he couldn't. LoC Prologue, Shai'tan tells Demandred that traitors will die the final death, then mentions Asmo.

 

Well actually as I have pointed out several times over the past 17 years to say "Rahvin killed Asmodean" is absolutely a true statement and a valid answer to the question "Who killed Asmodean." Rhavin did kill Asmodean, he sturck him with lightening when he traveled to Caemlyn. This, of course is not the killing of Asmoedean that everyone is concerned with but still a completely true statement.

Cue a big argument about whether or not this counts because that never happened due to the time paradox caused by balefire.

 

I never understood the whole "who killed Asmo" craze. It didn't and still doesn't matter. I have said it before and still do think that when RJ wrote it he never planned it being any big deal at all. Just one of those scenes in the book to cause some speculation but not an entire chain of countless threads and speculation. I bet that after the fans got all into it, he chose to leave it unresolved as it was set up to be very ambiguous and I bet he loved how much the fans got into it.

Indeed, RJ has even said as much.

 

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

 

I think he meant the glossary. It wasn't until chapter 5 that Moridin dropped the big hint (the "becoming a habit" bit and asking if she was claiming Aran'gar was a traitor), and it wasn't until Mesaana was (mostly) dead that Shaidar Haran explicitly said she was responsible for the loss of three Chosen.

 

Never mentioned by name though, and Graendal was always afraid that the DO would know about her part in Sammael's death (driving him at Rand against the DO's instructions then sitting back and watching it unfold) so if Asmodean is included this would make 4 chosen, not 3.

 

There is no reason to think that is was chosen who did it. Only needed to be someone Asmo knew on sight, and since we have no idea how many people he knew - could be anyone. My vote is Verin.

If any Chosen gets credit for killing Sammael, it's Moridin. Or Sammael himself, for that matter. Graendal doesn't really deserve any blame for him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

If any Chosen gets credit for killing Sammael, it's Moridin. Or Sammael himself, for that matter. Graendal doesn't really deserve any blame for him.

 

If we're going to rat-out Moridin for this, then we have to ask how did he know what Sam was up to, or even where he was at that exact moment. That all traces back to Graendal.

 

Ultimately, Sam is responsible for his own acts, including placing himself where Mashadar could eat him, just as Mesaana is responsible for her own poor choice of battleground. Blaming Graendal for Mesaana's poor choices is no more valid than absolving her for how she maneuvered Sam.

 

In the absence of contradictory evidence, we have to assume that the DO, Shaidar Haran, and Moridn all had the same information available to them about Sam, and Graendal's part in what happened to him.

[Mr Ares]

Mesaana didn't choose her battleground - Graendal was blamed because the Dreamspike prevented her from luring the AS to her battlefield of choice, and stranded her in the WT. Sammael did choose his own battleground, and despite accusation that Graendal manoeuvred him into fighting Rand, she really didn't. He attacked Rand in FoH, in order to lure him to Illian. A plan he bought into with full knowledge. He later tried (after Graendal's attempted manipulations) to create a truce with Rand. He failed. No, Graendal does not bear any significant blame for Sammael - Sam, Moridin, Rand and Mashadar all played far bigger parts in his downfall. Without Graendal, nothing would have changed in how that story ended.

[capuga]

Well, it certainly fit. She went to Illian right after Sammael bit the dust to raid stuff, so a similar move in Caemlyn with Rhavin makes sense. And she knew he turned and was with Rand. I'm satisfied.

 

So, if one is keeping score on chosen deaths:

 

1. Balthamel = Green Man. Aran'gar = Rand (Graendal with the assist).

2. Aginor = himself (Rand with the assist). Oran'gar = Elza.

3. Be'lal = Moiriane.

4. Ishamael = Rand. Moridin = still alive.

5. Rhavin = Rand (Nynaeve/Moghedien)

6. Asmodean = Graendal

7. Sammael = Mashadar (Moridin)

8. Lanfear = ?? Finns/Moridin (Moiraine gets the assist). Cyndane still alive.

9. Semirhage = Rand (DO/Moridin)

10. Mesaana = Egwene (OK, she's a veggy, a messy veggy). A little inadvertent help from Graendal/Slayer.

11. Demandred = at large.

12. Graendal = at large.

13. Moghedien = at large.

 

So, if one want to count kills & assists, we'd have the following NOT counting Lanfear's death, since we don't know who killed her.

 

1. Rand: 4 Kills (Ishy, Rhavin, Semi, Aran'gar); 1 Assist (Aginor).

2. Moiraine: 1 Kill (Be'lal); 1 Assist (Lanfear).

3. Graendal: 1 Kill (Asmo); 1 Assist (Aran'gar)

4. Green Man 1 Kill (Ballthamel)

5. Elza: 1 Kill (Oran'gar)

6. Moridn: 1 Assist (Sammael) + 1 other assist (known or unknown) (Semi) + maybe 1 direct kill (Lanfear)

7. Nynaeve/Moghedein: 1 Assist between them (Rhavin)

8. Eggy: 1 permanently broken (Messy).

 

Just notice how many deaths wouldn't have been possible without Chosen, DO, or DF help (Rhavin, Asmo, Sammael, Oran'gar, Semi, Aran'gar). Even Mesaana wouldn't have happened w/out Graendal (though she didn't consciously help). Still, every Chosen's permanent removal from the field has been accomplished with Chosen/DF/DO aid, except for Be'lal.

 

I'd give Rand an assist on Sammael also.

[Caius Callus]

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

What? Chapter references, please.

I didn't catch up on that, somehow.

[Cyf]

I don't have the book on me, but in tGS they find a sword that Rand remembers from Falme, and 'for once not from Lews Therin' or such. It's pretty much obviously Justice. :)

[Demon_AS]

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

What? Chapter references, please.

I didn't catch up on that, somehow.

I don't have my copy of TGS, but as far as I can remember, he was given the sword by the owner of the mansion that he takes over (the mansion in which Semirhage forces him to use the TP). He put it down to a completely random ta'veren event where he draws things that he needs to him.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :).

[didymos]

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

What? Chapter references, please.

I didn't catch up on that, somehow.

I don't have my copy of TGS, but as far as I can remember, he was given the sword by the owner of the mansion that he takes over (the mansion in which Semirhage forces him to use the TP). He put it down to a completely random ta'veren event where he draws things that he needs to him.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :).

 

My earlier reply:

 

Sometime after the Prologue of tGS when Rand drops the sul'dam off by Ebou Dar after capturing Semirhage and his next appearance when he's already settled in his mansion in Arad Doman. All we know is some "scholars" found it and brought it to him.

[Demon_AS]

May be a silly question...when exactly is Justice found? Or is that Rand's new sword?

What? Chapter references, please.

I didn't catch up on that, somehow.

I don't have my copy of TGS, but as far as I can remember, he was given the sword by the owner of the mansion that he takes over (the mansion in which Semirhage forces him to use the TP). He put it down to a completely random ta'veren event where he draws things that he needs to him.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong :).

 

My earlier reply:

 

Sometime after the Prologue of tGS when Rand drops the sul'dam off by Ebou Dar after capturing Semirhage and his next appearance when he's already settled in his mansion in Arad Doman. All we know is some "scholars" found it and brought it to him.

Thanks, I knew it was something like that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wasnt really suprised. I figured it was Graendal , although I didnt really care about it enough to actually join the bandwagon.

 

On a side note, I think it is very appropriate to point out a certain member's insistance and oftentimes condecention towards all of the other posters that Moridin was the killer.

 

Mik was the epitome of rudeness in regards to this, constantly saying people were of lesser intelligence than he.

 

Well, all I want to say is, shouldnt have been so damn arrogant, nor rude.

 

 

 

Edit: Not written in an angry tone, i mean it to be in a lighthearted teasing way.

[Crael123]

Well the how and where has always been obvious. Graendal pulled him into T'A'R then balefired him. makes sense no?

[Ashaman Kovan]

I don't take anything that was said as definitive proof that it was Graendal. :]

[Sharaman]

Well the how and where has always been obvious. Graendal pulled him into T'A'R then balefired him. makes sense no?

If it's BF then the where would be irrelevant. We know the where is relevant. However we don't know that GLoD can't resurrect somebody killed in TAR.

Not for sure. So method does remain a mystery.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

I don't take anything that was said as definitive proof that it was Graendal. :]

 

Take a look @ the glossary under "Graendal."

[Byzantine279]

Actually, we know for a fact that T'A'R does not matter: Ishamael was killed in T'A'R (though rand did not know that was where it was at the time) and he was brought back. So the where continues to be a mystery, perhaps one that will never be solved.

[didymos]

Actually, we know for a fact that T'A'R does not matter: Ishamael was killed in T'A'R (though rand did not know that was where it was at the time) and he was brought back. So the where continues to be a mystery, perhaps one that will never be solved.

 

Also, Rahvin died in T'A'R. The DO only griped about the balefire part.

[MrMatrim]

I think Lanfear used one of her wishes to make Graendal kill Asmodean! This is not over!!!

 

.

 

.

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

.

 

.

.

 

 

.

 

 

.

 

.

 

...just kidding! I could not resist.