Asmodean

[Luckers]

Go.

[Shaidar]

The conventional wisdom was right for once?

[WhiskyJack]

well he is dead. That's the end of it.

[Random Man]

Guess it wouldn't be cool to get an "I killed Asmodean" bumper sticker now. Bummer. Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

 

There's still one piece to the mystery left, though. We have the "who," and we can guess the "why" -- Graendal saw an opportunity to kill a traitor and took it, as she would probably think she'd be rewarded for it. Plus, he was a loose end to her clique's scheming now that Lanfear couldn't keep tabs on her anymore. But we still don't know how she did it. I would say I would go with conventional wisdom and say she was either there too late to help defend against Rand's attack, or was there to take from Rahvin's stash. Balefire could be a possibility, but it doesn't resolve the "where" Asmo was killed that would keep the DO from bringing him back if he had wanted to. Hmph.

[didymos]

She also did it so Rand wouldn't have a teacher. In fact, that was probably her primary motivation.

 

As for the "how", I'm not so sure it really matters. I think the fact that Asmodean couldn't be transmigrated, even had the DO wanted to, was a result of the Pattern being all screwed up locallly due to all the balefire being flung about, both in the real world and T'A'R and especially because of how Asmodean was actually killed and resurrected (along with a bunch of others) as a result of Rahvin's balefiring. I think it was just a big snarl the DO couldn't deal with. Rahvin he probably could have managed, as the damage to the Pattern would have been much less without Rahvin's balefiring and Rahvin still had the black cords hooked up to the Great Lord.

[Guest]

Ive read all these theories on why Asmodean cant be ressurected, and honestly i dont know why more come to the conclusion that i have.

To me, it is simply that "black thread" Rand rips off Asmodean in rhuidean, and asmodean says now he wont be shielded from the madness.

If this is a link to the DO, why isnt that simply the means for him to reach out to dead ones as well?

[Random Man]

She also did it so Rand wouldn't have a teacher. In fact, that was probably her primary motivation.

 

As for the "how", I'm not so sure it really matters. I think the fact that Asmodean couldn't be transmigrated, even had the DO wanted to, was a result of the Pattern being all screwed up locallly due to all the balefire being flung about, both in the real world and T'A'R and especially because of how Asmodean was actually killed and resurrected (along with a bunch of others) as a result of Rahvin's balefiring. I think it was just a big snarl the DO couldn't deal with. Rahvin he probably could have managed, as the damage to the Pattern would have been much less without Rahvin's balefiring and Rahvin still had the black cords hooked up to the Great Lord.

Oh, I don't think it really matters either. I'm just still curious. It's obvious that the identity of Asmodean's killer or how he was killed was never really that relevant to the later plot -- especially considering how it was revealed definitively -- but was merely a mystery that grew larger than RJ intended.

[yoniy0]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

[Sharaman]

The method could be important because it prevents resurrection. It might feature again.

Did she pull him into TAR in the flesh? I'm inclined to that conclusion because of all the Hopper warnings about "Final Death" in TAR.

G may have been sneaking around in TAR and just been in the process of exiting into the real world when Asmo opened the door.

If one reads the description of Egwene's first ride through TAR to Salidar, it wasn't immediately apparent that she had entered TAR in the flesh.

Rahvin was indeed connected via the taint filter cords. Asmo wasn't - that might make a difference even if he wasn't balefired.

Similar arguments exist if we think of Gateways and Skimmers - GLoD's sense of space-time may be scrambled enough.

[Dams1986]

It really was intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. In fact, this was the one spoiler I read beforehand because I knew I wouldn't be surprised. This was pre-Moridin and the only Forsaken who could possibly know were the ones at the tFoH meeting: Lanfear, Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael. Sammael excluded himself in later books. We know it couldn't be Lanfear/Rahvin unless we come up with totally insane theories. It was Graendal. All the years of discussion and ever more wild theories were completely unnecessary and THIS was the reason that RJ took such pleasure in leaving the question hanging. Silly WoT fans...

[didymos]

Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

What now? What did I miss?

 

I think he meant the glossary. It wasn't until chapter 5 that Moridin dropped the big hint (the "becoming a habit" bit and asking if she was claiming Aran'gar was a traitor), and it wasn't until Mesaana was (mostly) dead that Shaidar Haran explicitly said she was responsible for the loss of three Chosen.

[analyticalkeys]

Ive read all these theories on why Asmodean cant be ressurected, and honestly i dont know why more come to the conclusion that i have.

To me, it is simply that "black thread" Rand rips off Asmodean in rhuidean, and asmodean says now he wont be shielded from the madness.

If this is a link to the DO, why isnt that simply the means for him to reach out to dead ones as well?

 

Not everyone has a black thread, but that doesn't mean they need one for the Dark One to revive them.

[Graveyardhag]

I have always figured he was killed in TAR.

Only a few pages before Asmodean is offed Rand has a POV where he's looking at a gateway into TAR. He specifically says (well, thinks) if he couldn't see the weaves, he wouldn't know it was there. It's always seemed connected to me.

Also, I know it's all out in the open now, but I think people may forget what exactly, "intuitively" means. Intuition, first instincts etc etc etc. The very first thing you thought of, when reading that part of the book. It was always "Grandeal did it!" for me, then I spent 10 years trying to figure out why exactly I would have thought that. Never actually thought I was right though.

[didymos]

I have always figured he was killed in TAR.

Only a few pages before Asmodean is offed Rand has a POV where he's looking at a gateway into TAR. He specifically says (well, thinks) if he couldn't see the weaves, he wouldn't know it was there. It's always seemed connected to me.

 

Yeah, I was keen on that too...until Egwene made her gateway into T'A'R. The female version just looked like a cloudy door in the middle of her tent.

[Graveyardhag]

I have always figured he was killed in TAR.

Only a few pages before Asmodean is offed Rand has a POV where he's looking at a gateway into TAR. He specifically says (well, thinks) if he couldn't see the weaves, he wouldn't know it was there. It's always seemed connected to me.

 

Yeah, I was keen on that too...until Egwene made her gateway in T'A'R. The female version just looked like a cloudy door in the middle of the air.

 

 

You are entirely correct there. I just explain it away like this:

Egwene figured that weave out all by her own self, She didn't yet know how to travel, or skim, so it wasn't a bastardisation of those weaves. In fact, she figured out travelling from the weave she used in that instance.

It was something she pulled out of thin air, and it worked. That doesn't imply that it is the same weave used for travelling into TAR that the Forsaken women use. By this point (I think) we already know that different weaves exist to do the same thing. We see later in the story that Avi's first travelling weave is different to the one Egwene figures out, as she has difficulty with that one. It seems logical to assume that the weave Egwene uses is different enough to the AOL weave to account for the cloudy doorway appearance.

Of course, I could be wrong and the Dark one is simply terrified of cupboards/wine cellars/storage rooms/whateverthatroomactuallywas and wont reserruct anyone killed in one

[Shard]

Guess it wouldn't be cool to get an "I killed Asmodean" bumper sticker now. Bummer. Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

 

There's still one piece to the mystery left, though. We have the "who," and we can guess the "why" -- Graendal saw an opportunity to kill a traitor and took it, as she would probably think she'd be rewarded for it. Plus, he was a loose end to her clique's scheming now that Lanfear couldn't keep tabs on her anymore. But we still don't know how she did it. I would say I would go with conventional wisdom and say she was either there too late to help defend against Rand's attack, or was there to take from Rahvin's stash. Balefire could be a possibility, but it doesn't resolve the "where" Asmo was killed that would keep the DO from bringing him back if he had wanted to. Hmph.

 

I would say Balefire and possibly because he's too close to Rand. Notice how all the forsaken that have been BF'ed were either done so by Rand or near Rand when it happened.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The method could be important because it prevents resurrection. It might feature again.

Did she pull him into TAR in the flesh? I'm inclined to that conclusion because of all the Hopper warnings about "Final Death" in TAR.

G may have been sneaking around in TAR and just been in the process of exiting into the real world when Asmo opened the door.

If one reads the description of Egwene's first ride through TAR to Salidar, it wasn't immediately apparent that she had entered TAR in the flesh.

Rahvin was indeed connected via the taint filter cords. Asmo wasn't - that might make a difference even if he wasn't balefired.

Similar arguments exist if we think of Gateways and Skimmers - GLoD's sense of space-time may be scrambled enough.

 

The whole "final death" thing is very confused. Hopper definitely mentions it to Perrin. The implication is that said "final Death" applies to anyone who dies in T'a'r. Yet, T'a'r is where Rand kills Ba'alzamon/Ishamael and he gets transmigrated.

 

So, either that "final death" only applies to wolves or something is very messed up.

[nolirion]

Ive read all these theories on why Asmodean cant be ressurected, and honestly i dont know why more come to the conclusion that i have.

To me, it is simply that "black thread" Rand rips off Asmodean in rhuidean, and asmodean says now he wont be shielded from the madness.

If this is a link to the DO, why isnt that simply the means for him to reach out to dead ones as well?

 

Not everyone has a black thread, but that doesn't mean they need one for the Dark One to revive them.

Only the forsaken , and they are the only tool The DO bother resurrect .

[yancy]

Asmodean 100% can be resurrected. It's just that The Dark One does not want to.

 

I know this because Robert Jordan told me at a book signing (for #8) after I asked if Asmodean was going to be resurrected or not. I totally expected a RAFO (i mean, he has a poster of himself with RAFO in huge letters under it right above him at all signings), but instead he put down the pen and said Asmodean was "a cat that tried to cross the tracks and failed". He then explained that he was dead and the Dark One would not be bringing him back. "So he's finished?" I asked.

 

"He's finished."

 

Some guy was taking notes at the time and later I saw this quoted in some faq, but I'm always surprised to see it still comes down to debate. But I'm also happy because as a wot-nerd, it's my one shining moment with RJ ;)

[JDJ]

Guess it wouldn't be cool to get an "I killed Asmodean" bumper sticker now. Bummer. Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

 

There's still one piece to the mystery left, though. We have the "who," and we can guess the "why" -- Graendal saw an opportunity to kill a traitor and took it, as she would probably think she'd be rewarded for it. Plus, he was a loose end to her clique's scheming now that Lanfear couldn't keep tabs on her anymore. But we still don't know how she did it. I would say I would go with conventional wisdom and say she was either there too late to help defend against Rand's attack, or was there to take from Rahvin's stash. Balefire could be a possibility, but it doesn't resolve the "where" Asmo was killed that would keep the DO from bringing him back if he had wanted to. Hmph.

 

I think the "why/how" is more intriguing than the "who".

 

I still think it was more of a crime of opportunity than a planed killing, so they question in my mind is was it Graendal herself or someone else. And if it was a crime of opportunity (ie: stumbled upon Asmo by mistake/chance), what was really going on to lead to that person being in the right place at the right time.

 

Does not seem logical that someone would be waiting in a place they would expect a servant to appear to kill him on purpose...

[Maji]

Guess it wouldn't be cool to get an "I killed Asmodean" bumper sticker now. Bummer. Can't say I liked the reveal in the prologue.

 

There's still one piece to the mystery left, though. We have the "who," and we can guess the "why" -- Graendal saw an opportunity to kill a traitor and took it, as she would probably think she'd be rewarded for it. Plus, he was a loose end to her clique's scheming now that Lanfear couldn't keep tabs on her anymore. But we still don't know how she did it. I would say I would go with conventional wisdom and say she was either there too late to help defend against Rand's attack, or was there to take from Rahvin's stash. Balefire could be a possibility, but it doesn't resolve the "where" Asmo was killed that would keep the DO from bringing him back if he had wanted to. Hmph.

 

I think the "why/how" is more intriguing than the "who".

 

I still think it was more of a crime of opportunity than a planed killing, so they question in my mind is was it Graendal herself or someone else. And if it was a crime of opportunity (ie: stumbled upon Asmo by mistake/chance), what was really going on to lead to that person being in the right place at the right time.

 

Does not seem logical that someone would be waiting in a place they would expect a servant to appear to kill him on purpose...

 

I'm guessing it was Graendal herself since Asmodean recgonized his killer. This has always made me believe it was one of the Chosen, specifically Graendal or Lanfear (although always though it was pretty unlikely even if she is spiteful enough to take out Asmodean with her 3 wishes from the Foxes).

[didymos]

Asmodean 100% can be resurrected. It's just that The Dark One does not want to.

 

I know this because Robert Jordan told me at a book signing (for #8) after I asked if Asmodean was going to be resurrected or not. I totally expected a RAFO (i mean, he has a poster of himself with RAFO in huge letters under it right above him at all signings), but instead he put down the pen and said Asmodean was "a cat that tried to cross the tracks and failed". He then explained that he was dead and the Dark One would not be bringing him back. "So he's finished?" I asked.

 

"He's finished."

 

Some guy was taking notes at the time and later I saw this quoted in some faq, but I'm always surprised to see it still comes down to debate. But I'm also happy because as a wot-nerd, it's my one shining moment with RJ ;)

 

Yeah, you do realize he didn't directly address whether or not he could be resurrected, right? He neatly avoided it while confirming that Asmo was nonetheless staying dead. Later, however, he did address it directly:

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 11 October 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting

 

WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

 

Couldn't bring him back.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Far be it from me to argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation. But well, I'm gonna argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation The identity of the killer was NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder.

 

Oh and while I'm @ it I'm gonna do some arguing with Dams1986 too

 

It really was intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

 

I'm afraid you are confusing intuitively obvious with educated guess, my friend. Don't take this as an insult, it does speak to good deductive reasoning on your part but Graendal was hardly the only obvious answer at the time of the murder.

 

This was pre-Moridin and the only Forsaken who could possibly know were the ones at the tFoH meeting: Lanfear, Rahvin, Graendal and Sammael.

 

There are alot of assumptions here, assumptions that worked out in your favor but assumptions none the less. First off, this assumes that he was killed by one of the Forsaken and there was no reason to believe that this was necessarily the case. Asmo was one of the Forsaken after all, so there are some good guys who might have seen reason to take him out. Secondly, one really could not assume that those Forsaken mentioned were the only four who could have known or that any or all of them even knew at all. Considering that the Asmo conversion was a plan that Lanfear was hatching behind The Shadow's back she certainly was not going to tell the others about it. Moreover, all the Forsaken have eyes and ears in the world so any of them potentially COULD have known. Lastly, we really did not know Lanfear's circumstances at the time (and anyone who actually believed that she was dead is rather daft IMHO) so she was still a viable option.

 

Sammael excluded himself in later books.

 

See, he excluded himself IN LATER BOOKS. Therefore, by your own logic he was every bit as viable an option as Graendal @ the time of the murder as he was also @ the TFoH meeting and had not yet excluded himself. You can say it became intuitively obvious in later books @ the time that Sammael excluded himself, but not @ the time time of the murder in TFoH.

 

We know it couldn't be Lanfear/Rahvin unless we come up with totally insane theories. It was Graendal. All the years of discussion and ever more wild theories were completely unnecessary and THIS was the reason that RJ took such pleasure in leaving the question hanging. Silly WoT fans...

 

Well actually as I have pointed out several times over the past 17 years to say "Rahvin killed Asmodean" is absolutely a true statement and a valid answer to the question "Who killed Asmodean." Rhavin did kill Asmodean, he sturck him with lightening when he traveled to Caemlyn. This, of course is not the killing of Asmoedean that everyone is concerned with but still a completely true statement. But I digress. Yes, you are correct to say the it would take an insane theory indeed to conclude that Rahvin was the one who caused Asmo to die the final death, but can we say the same of Lanfear? Considering that we really knew very little about her circumstances I say no we cannot. In fact, considering that we now know that Lanfear did, in fact, get her three wishes from the Finns had Graendal not been revealed as the killer in ToM Lanfear would have become a lot more viable.

 

So congrats on correctly guessing the identity of Asmodean's killer, but the her identity WAS NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder. Not all of the theories were insane, in fact there were some very good one's proposed over the years and I very much enjoyed reading them. Graendal as the murderer certainly was plausible and maybe even likely, but intuitively obvious? Not so much.

[didymos]

Far be it from me to argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation. But well, I'm gonna argue with the Great Robert Jordan on matters concerning his own creation The identity of the killer was NOT intuitively obvious @ the time of the murder.

 

 

RJ said "intuitively obvious to the most casual observer". If you're unfamiliar with that idiom, it actually means nothing of the kind. The exact opposite in fact. He did say it could be figured out, but that's not the same thing. It's also not the same thing as "confirmed beyond all doubt", which everyone just seems to assume was what RJ meant.

[WhiskyJack]

Jesus Christ! Now people are not happy with the identity of the killer! Looks like Asmo surely "touched" many readers.