The Field of Merrilor

[anthonypero]

I don't know. If it was as easy as that, they'd have kept balefiring cities in the AoL. I think the unraveling of the Pattern isn't what the DO wants. Remember, there are other worlds out there. Would it unravel /everything/? It gets down to the usual questions that come up: Must the Dragon free the DO? If not, then what method will win? Obviously, the worlds where the Trollocs won didn't have a freed DO, so what works?

 

The DO wants the Pattern unraveled, that's why he's asking if Demandred would unleash the Balefire for him. Moridin knows this. He basically knows that everything everywhere will die if the DO wins and completely escapes his prison. He talks about how foolish the others are, thinking that anything will be left to rule.

 

The reason this didn't happen in the AOL is simple: the bad guys figured out what would happen. The Forsaken (minus Ishmael), are selfish, they're not suicidal. So, it IS unlikely that the Forsaken, minus Ishy, would do this plan. But ISHY would do it, if he thought of it, and get a bunch of his BT minions to do it, who don't know any better.

[Durinax]

I have the sinking feeling that rand is going into the last battle short handed again. Egwene seems dead set to erode away all support he has unless he does whatever plans she has that most likely wont work. and unless rand breaks out one of those sweet speeches about how old he is and references certain things that boggle the minds of everyone, he is going in with very few friends

[f3llyn]

I have the sinking feeling that rand is going into the last battle short handed again. Egwene seems dead set to erode away all support he has unless he does whatever plans she has that most likely wont work. and unless rand breaks out one of those sweet speeches about how old he is and references certain things that boggle the minds of everyone, he is going in with very few friends

You're forgetting Rand's ta'veranism. At this point Rand's will and the will of the pattern are almost one and the same, if seems to be. If he wants the support of the people there he'll get it, it really is that simple.

 

That being said, the light side will still be short handed against the seemingly unlimited number of shadowspawn they'll be facing.

[FarShainMael]

What if Mat swears fealty to Rand and Fortouna has to comply with something the Prince of Ravens does

 

Mat is the Prince of the Ravens because he was married to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, that person no longer exists. She is now the Empress, that will change his title and power to something more as well.Errr I guess

 

Sorry to jump back like this...actually Prince of the Ravens is the title for the Empress's husband as well. In the Fortuona chapter we see in ToM she specifically thinks of Mat as "Prince of the Ravens" Mat still being essentially Seanchan Royalty I think will play a huge role in Rand binding the Seanchan to him.

 

Actually, she thinks this before she states 'I am the Empress'. Specifically, while she is talking with Rand.

 

Since she also sees her Tuon-self as dead, Mat's marriage may also have ended. There was a thread on this some time ago, but it's buried in the mists of time. (Now that would make a good series title.. )

 

But I'll wait and see.

[FarShainMael]

I have the sinking feeling that rand is going into the last battle short handed again. Egwene seems dead set to erode away all support he has unless he does whatever plans she has that most likely wont work. and unless rand breaks out one of those sweet speeches about how old he is and references certain things that boggle the minds of everyone, he is going in with very few friends

You're forgetting Rand's ta'veranism. At this point Rand's will and the will of the pattern are almost one and the same, if seems to be. If he wants the support of the people there he'll get it, it really is that simple.

 

That being said, the light side will still be short handed against the seemingly unlimited number of shadowspawn they'll be facing.

 

After Maradon, I can't wait to see what a circle including Rand could do..

[Sharaman]

What if Mat swears fealty to Rand and Fortouna has to comply with something the Prince of Ravens does

 

Mat is the Prince of the Ravens because he was married to the Daughter of the Nine Moons, that person no longer exists. She is now the Empress, that will change his title and power to something more as well.Errr I guess

 

Sorry to jump back like this...actually Prince of the Ravens is the title for the Empress's husband as well. In the Fortuona chapter we see in ToM she specifically thinks of Mat as "Prince of the Ravens" Mat still being essentially Seanchan Royalty I think will play a huge role in Rand binding the Seanchan to him.

 

Actually, she thinks this before she states 'I am the Empress'. Specifically, while she is talking with Rand.

 

Since she also sees her Tuon-self as dead, Mat's marriage may also have ended. There was a thread on this some time ago, but it's buried in the mists of time. (Now that would make a good series title.. )

 

But I'll wait and see.

Her ToM PoV makes it obvious that she still considers him her husband. It's one of those cases of reluctant lust - like Berelain, Fortuona is loath to admit to herself she's actually fallen for somebody rather than being coldly rational in picking her bed-mate for political reasons.

[FarShainMael]

I'll have to re-read that bit again.

 

Later..

 

Fortuona thinks about Mat in the context of the Seanchan 'tradition' of progress by assassination:

 

'Many on this side of the ocean thought differently. She'd never have believed it, if not for her time with Matrim. That was obviously one reason why Fortuona had been required to go with him. She just wished she'd interpreted the omens earlier.'

 

This reads very awkwardly, and inaccurately. Why does she suddenly refer to herself as 'Fortuona'? While she was with Mat she was Tuon. I think it's likely that this was an error; a text search was carried out to replace all occurrences of Tuon with Fortuona, including this one.

 

Also, a few pages later, we have this exchange in the inn:

 

'Empress of the Seanchan, eh?' Perrin said, watching the smoke twist above him in the dim room.

 

'Daughter of the Nine Moons,' Mat said. 'It's different.'

[Sharaman]

I'll have to re-read that bit again.

 

Later..

 

Fortuona thinks about Mat in the context of the Seanchan 'tradition' of progress by assassination:

 

'Many on this side of the ocean thought differently. She'd never have believed it, if not for her time with Matrim. That was obviously one reason why Fortuona had been required to go with him. She just wished she'd interpreted the omens earlier.'

 

This reads very awkwardly, and inaccurately. Why does she suddenly refer to herself as 'Fortuona'? While she was with Mat she was Tuon. I think it's likely that this was an error; a text search was carried out to replace all occurrences of Tuon with Fortuona, including this one.

 

Also, a few pages later, we have this exchange in the inn:

 

'Empress of the Seanchan, eh?' Perrin said, watching the smoke twist above him in the dim room.

 

'Daughter of the Nine Moons,' Mat said. 'It's different.'

There's also the bit where Fortuona wonders (paraphrase): Would Matrim be loyal? What would it be like to be married to a PotR who she doesn't have to plot against? Like a fantasy told to commoners to illustrate impossible marriages.

[FarShainMael]

What she actually says is this:

 

'What would it be like to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against?'

 

She doesn't say 'to be married to'.

 

Mat could remain the PotR without having to marry the Empress (which would be necessary if his marriage to the DotNM is no longer valid).

 

But that's pure speculation, of course.

[AutomatedTeller]

People are really speculating as to whether Mat is still married to Tuon? Or Fortuona?

 

So, people think that one of the central and longest running arcs in the series, one that was resolved in a great way, will just become null and void a book later?

 

I dunno - that just seems so farfetched...

[FarShainMael]

My reason is this, from TGS36, 'The death of Tuon', p558:

 

Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

 

Fortuona was Empress.

 

Til death do us part..

 

There's a distinct finality to that. To me it suggests that this 'death', metaphorical though it may be, has indeed parted them. But rather than being null and void, I think it will def have repercussions in AMOL, though what they will be I can't imagine.

[madmike]

My reason is this, from TGS36, 'The death of Tuon', p558:

 

Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

 

Fortuona was Empress.

 

Til death do us part..

 

There's a distinct finality to that. To me it suggests that this 'death', metaphorical though it may be, has indeed parted them. But rather than being null and void, I think it will def have repercussions in AMOL, though what they will be I can't imagine.

 

Tuon is Fortuona, when she became Empress she cast aside here childish name, that is the reason for the above quote.

[FarShainMael]

My reason is this, from TGS36, 'The death of Tuon', p558:

 

Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

 

Fortuona was Empress.

 

Til death do us part..

 

There's a distinct finality to that. To me it suggests that this 'death', metaphorical though it may be, has indeed parted them. But rather than being null and void, I think it will def have repercussions in AMOL, though what they will be I can't imagine.

 

Tuon is Fortuona, when she became Empress she cast aside here childish name, that is the reason for the above quote.

 

It feels a lot stronger than that to me, especially as it was reflected in the chapter name. There has to be a reason for this emphasis, surely.

[madmike]

My reason is this, from TGS36, 'The death of Tuon', p558:

 

Tuon was dead. Gone, cast aside, forgotten. Tuon had been the Daughter of the Nine Moons. She was now just a notation in the histories.

 

Fortuona was Empress.

 

Til death do us part..

 

There's a distinct finality to that. To me it suggests that this 'death', metaphorical though it may be, has indeed parted them. But rather than being null and void, I think it will def have repercussions in AMOL, though what they will be I can't imagine.

 

Tuon is Fortuona, when she became Empress she cast aside here childish name, that is the reason for the above quote.

 

It feels a lot stronger than that to me, especially as it was reflected in the chapter name. There has to be a reason for this emphasis, surely.

 

This has already been mentioned in the discussions earlier: the paragraph is on pg 703 chapter 'a teaching chamber'.

'She'd never have believed it, if not for her time with Matrim. That was obviously one reason why Fortuona had been required to go with him.'

This was the Empress Fortuona pondering on assassination, during the interrogation of Elaida/Suffa in the teaching room.

Regarding the finallity of your quote, the times when the Seanchan have been portrayed in previous books, there has been much made of taking new names on promotion and being unable to use their old name if demoted see issue of Suroth.

[f3llyn]

There's also the line on the next page:

 

"Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like, to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dream of an impossible marriage."

 

Implying that as Fortuona she is still married to him.

[WhiskyJack]

Enough with lame stories;) Why would "Tuon" marry Mat when she knew that once she reaches Ebou Dar, she will "die" and marriage will become void. Besides prophecy mentions the name "fortune" and Raven Empress will only marry once. Even in TGS, she was thinking about Mat and how he need to be raised and how that would suck (Fortuna was thinking that, not Tuon).

 

P.S: If Tuon is "dead" then Fortuna has no claim to throne in first place!;)

[Declan]

I agree with Whisky Jack. and doesn't that belong on a different thread anyway?

 

The Field of Merrilor doesn't feel like a trap as much as it feels like no one is going to get what they want from it. Egwene is going into this situation with her demands set way too high. Maybe Moiraine will be the straw to break the camel's back and will convince the Aes Sedai to actually help Rand and not want it all their way. Which they have no idea to do. I don't remember them being able to think of any alternatives just that Rand's was a bad idea.

 

I really do want to see Moiraine walk in on all the leaders of known Randland's meeting and just tell them how badly they have been messing the situation up. I tell you what, I was not a huge fan of Moiraine when she was alive but ever since she died and I have had to deal with Nynaeve and Cadsuane a whole bunch I look back fondly upon the books when Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai around Rand.

[Guest]

i dont see the field as a trap at all, its like a perfect staging ground for wielding effective resistance to TV and Caemlyn

[GusE]

Before and during most of TGS I thought Moiraine returning and breaking Rand's reading list would be what would "turn him back from the dark side", but now I really like having her meet Rand 2.0 at FoM instead, thats probably what I'm looking forward to most in the next book (apart from that last chapter...).

[Baelorn]

Egwene is going into this situation with her demands set way too high.

 

I don't think Egwene really realizes how weak her bargaining position is right now. Rand doesn't even need the White Tower on his side for the Last Battle. Aes Sedai are, for the most part, extremely ineffective in battle. They have absolutely no formal training in weaves used in combat. The Green Ajah is supposed to be the battle Ajah but they couldn't even deal with a few Seanchan Damane and soldiers. I'm not saying they would be useless but Egwene is walking in there like the Last Battle couldn't be won without the White Tower's support.

[Kestrel]

You think so? A true Aes Sedai with over 400 years of experience manipulating weaves and the World of Dreams wouldn't be a match for Slayer?

IIRC, LTT excelled at many things, but the World of Dreams wasn't one of them. Sure, he's followed the forsaken into the World of Dreams and defeated them there. But he never put the time and effort into being a master of the place. Most of Rand's efforts were spent keeping a barrier up between himself and the World of Dreams.

 

It's like this: I wouldn't ask a surgeon who holds a private pilot license to make an emergency landing in a Boeing 747, and I sure wouldn't want a 747 pilot who has paramedic training to do surgery on me. No, Rand needs to let the experienced dreamwalkers do their part, and direct his attention to other areas where he does best.

[Durinax]

ah I finally figured out why rand is having the armies gather in one place! he is going to inspect them all and root out every last DF so there cant be sabotages and backstabbing. what a genious

[AutomatedTeller]

ah I finally figured out why rand is having the armies gather in one place! he is going to inspect them all and root out every last DF so there cant be sabotages and backstabbing. what a genious

 

I can imagine it - Rand tells everyone to line up, in one line. He walks down, looking everyone in the eyes. 500,000 seconds later, he says "ok, that's it" - only to realize that he's been walking for nearly 6 days straight, everyone has passed out, and Trollocs are eating the Aes Sedai.

[Durinax]

ah I finally figured out why rand is having the armies gather in one place! he is going to inspect them all and root out every last DF so there cant be sabotages and backstabbing. what a genious

 

I can imagine it - Rand tells everyone to line up, in one line. He walks down, looking everyone in the eyes. 500,000 seconds later, he says "ok, that's it" - only to realize that he's been walking for nearly 6 days straight, everyone has passed out, and Trollocs are eating the Aes Sedai.

nah all he need to do is be raised above an army and he can channel markers above the DF's and then move to the next army. or he could do some super channelling again causing all DF's to go blind

[Declan]

 

I don't think Egwene really realizes how weak her bargaining position is right now. Rand doesn't even need the White Tower on his side for the Last Battle. Aes Sedai are, for the most part, extremely ineffective in battle. They have absolutely no formal training in weaves used in combat. The Green Ajah is supposed to be the battle Ajah but they couldn't even deal with a few Seanchan Damane and soldiers. I'm not saying they would be useless but Egwene is walking in there like the Last Battle couldn't be won without the White Tower's support.

 

Exactly. She is suppose to be this great Amrylin and yet she is unable to show the tiniest bit of humility and admit when she does not know the best course of action when somebody really does. And yes I know she isn't considered that great yet but sometime in the future she is suppose to be considered one of the best.

 

Thank God for Perrin knowing where people's allegiances should be.

 

Rand will need Aes Sedai to defeat the DO though. He is convinced it must be done with a circle or multiple ones, and the most abundant female channelers are the Aes Sedai.