Discuss The Forsaken

[remylevin]

I’m afraid the vast majority of you have it completely wrong when you criticize the FS. They’re not bad villains—they’ve been great villains. I think your mistakes stem from two fundamental misunderstandings about the books:

 

First, as RJ made clear over and over and over again, the big fight between good and evil in the books is taking place on two levels simultaneously. The first level is the obvious one: wars and shadowspawn and things that go BOOM. The second level is about subverting the champion of the light (Rand) to the dark side. If you don’t believe me, think about the numerous clues that are sprinkled throughout the series: the “chess” game (what was it called again?) that Moridin plays in one of the earlier books, in which the best way to win is to make the “fisher” piece (i.e. Rand) switch to your side; Verin’s musings in TGS that Rand doesn’t realize how the game is actually being played; the DO allowing Semirhage to be killed by TP balefire; etc., etc. etc. So, when we evaluate the FS’s accomplishments, we should first evaluate how well they’ve, basically, driven Rand to (the brink of) insanity and switching sides. Let’s do that, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: the big kahuna-multiple attempts early on to subvert Rand to the dark by tempting him with power, threatening him, using the ghost of his mother etc. Realized his direct efforts weren’t working after Rand killed him for the third time, took a step back from direct involvement and let the other FS take the lead in this fight.

Lanfear: also tried to tempt Rand early on directly, using promises of sex and power. Again, when direct temptation failed, the dark switched to other tactics to subvert Rand, namely, causing him as much physical and psychological pain as possible. In Lanfear’s case, this translated into torturing Rand and women he cared about directly for a while, then robbing him (though not intentionally) of his main advisor, the one teacher and Aes Sedai he was finally learning to trust, Moiraine. Also, throw in the guilt that Rand ends up feeling, both over the death of Moiraine and his role in it (i.e., did not stop Lanfear when he could have), and we have a major step towards hardening/turning Rand to the dark by Lanfear. Now, perhaps, a new major role in this fight.

Mesaana behind the plot to put Rand in a box and torture him for days and days. During this time is when Rand’s psyche takes on the definite downward spiral that we see all the way to the end of TGS. Note that in the box Rand starts to directly communicate with LTT, who is the avatar of his psychosis in the series.

Sammael his final battle with Rand takes Rand back to SL, where he kills Leah (sp?) out of mercy, yet another action he agonizes about since. Also responsible for the deaths of maidens that were protecting Rand during the battle of Cairhien, deaths Rand feels guilty about.

Semirhage probably the most successful FS in this respect, except maybe Ishi who is directing everything from behind the scenes. Takes Rand’s hand. Sows doubts in the hearts of Rand’s followers and in his own heart as to his sanity. Pushes Rand over the edge into evil territory by torturing him in the worst possible way that you could torture Rand/LTT-making him (almost) kill a woman he loves. Puts Rand in such a box that he finally reaches to the only tool that is available to him-the DO. Pretty much manages to turn Rand to the dark (think all the food spoiling when he’s around in Arad Doman), if not for Tam and the revelation in VoG.

Demaandred hmmm…not sure, but probably had role with Mesaana in the Dumai Wells/torture of Rand debacle.

Asmodean, Be’lal, Aginor, Belthamel, Rahvin, Graendal, Moghedien not a whole lot in this respect. Too busy fighting the other aspect of the war (see below) or trying to hurt Rand by taking out his friends (trying to kill Mat, Nyn, Perrin etc.)

 

Second, you’re misunderstanding the odds that FS face in the more conventional war (the one with shadowspawn and armies and things that go BOOM.) In the beginning of the series, Randland was in the perfect position for the Dragon/emperor of the world to use in TG: most of the nations of the world were led by, and composed of, non-DFs; they were just weak/divided enough to yield to a figure like the Dragon who would unify them, but strong enough to contribute tremendous military forces to the fight against the shadow. The WT was unified and working (mostly) as a unified force against the shadow. Here are the odds the FS faced: 13 super-powerful/knowledgeable channelers+some DFs+shadowspawn v. ALL OF HUMANITY (which includes hundreds, maybe thousands of channelers.) Let’s see what they accomplished in light of these long odds, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: pulling all the strings from the darkness. Set up the BA, maintained the coterie of DFs, sowed division amongst the world’s nations, and stopped them from being unified in one great, strong empire. Also, probably behind the creation of the legions and legions of shadowspawn in the blight.

Asmodean created a major rift in the Aiel, with tremendous consequences.

Mesaana caused a schism in the WT, probably the worst blow the shadow made against the unified forces of the light.

Sammael took over Illian, a major nation. Dispersed Shaido to the four winds to cause trouble, which they have beyond measure.

Semirhage again, very consequential role. Wiped out any chance of reinforcements for the light from the Seanchan empire; likely behind the aggressive stance of the Seanchan towards Rand and the other nations.

Be’lal took over Tear, a major nation.

Rahvin took over Andor, a major nation; destroyed the monarchy there. This is especially significant since Andor was probably the nation with the most capacity to help the Dragon in his fight in the beginning of the books. Instead it’s devolved into infighting for the whole series.

Graendal basically destroyed Arad Doman through scheming. Neutralized one of the great captains (Ituralde) by sending him against the Seanchan; responsible for countless deaths among potential light-side forces in Arad Doman, Tarabon and Seanchan.

Belthamel tried to manipulate Egwene/rebel AS (failed).

Demaandred hmmm…again, I wish I knew. Probably behind the BT, which could be the most devastating move in this aspect of the war that the shadow has (think LOTS of stuff that goes BOOM!!) Perhaps behind Masema. And also, probably, behind the borderlanders abandoning their posts.

Aginor, Moghedien, Lanfear not a whole lot in this respect.

 

So you see, it’s not that the FS have not accomplished much despite their promise. The story indicates that they have accomplished a s**t-ton despite really long odds. You’re mistaking a lack of direct screen time for a lack of accomplishments. In reality, almost everything bad that has happened in the story (and there has been a lot of that) has happened through their handiwork-we just get to see the results, not their immediate actions.

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

In the end results speak for themselves and all forsaken plots has amounted to nothing. In the war of power the forsaken continous victories has led to lews therin final act of desperation which resulted in the male half of the source being tainted and him killing his own flesh and blood.

 

In the third age all the forsaken plots have been rectified. With almost all of them getting wasted in the process. They have sunk into cannon fodder territory

 

Now You're just being ridiculous. All the things I mentioned were the results. I didn't even get to all the foiled plots (see numerous attacks on Rand, Mat, Perrin, the supergirls etc.) Lots of bad things have happened in the series to the light-side characters and to the light side cause. By your standard, nothing would validate a villain unless they actually won the fight in the end. That's just silly-if the only thing they can do to be a good villain is to win absolutely, then you've pretty much eliminated almost all books in the fantasy genre from contention for having good villains.

The FS have been excellent villains-they've presented a very human brand of evil, without necessarily falling into the kind of schlock that is common in other works. I'm not sure where all your bitterness towards their roles comes from-it's kind of baffling, really.

[Sabio]

How many times have we even heard the Forsaken, DO, and Shaidar Haran say "you have failed" or another failure will not be tolerated?

[remylevin]

How many times have we even heard the Forsaken, DO, and Shaidar Haran say "you have failed" or another failure will not be tolerated?

 

Right-they have a mixed record. If they didn't, the series would be no fun-all the good guys/gals would be dead by now, and EotW would have been a single volume. But saying that they haven't succeeded at everything is not the same as saying they're useless as villains. the first is a fair assessment, the second isn't.

[decrepid dragon]

How many times have we even heard the Forsaken, DO, and Shaidar Haran say "you have failed" or another failure will not be tolerated?

 

Right-they have a mixed record. If they didn't, the series would be no fun-all the good guys/gals would be dead by now, and EotW would have been a single volume. But saying that they haven't succeeded at everything is not the same as saying they're useless as villains. the first is a fair assessment, the second isn't.

I agree, I find the amount of forskaen hate here amazing, and the idea that they have utterly failed and are useless. They must think the only way to redeem the forsaken is to have them kill all the hero's and win the last battle without effort, and having Liandrin as scary as the forsaken is only because Randland people don't whisper her name in fear, if they did everyone would agree that she was even more pathetic (she has been dacovale for how many books?).

 

By my estimation The forsaken have been responsible for between 7,000,000 and 1,000,000 people, with who knows how many killed in Seanchan. Thats not including any deaths the Seanchan caused by just trying to take back the lands. Its hard to estimate because I don't really know how many random civilians died in Cairhien and to the Shaido in Malden, as well as to all those trollocs the Forsaken were so fond of dropping every where in Randland, and about 500,000 of those have been soldiers, and I have a feeling that number would probably double or triple if Seanchan figures were know.

 

Asmodean denied Rand the use of something like 150,000 Aeil, along with 400 channeling wise ones, with casualties and breaking clans. How can that number be insignificant? That amount of aeil would probably kill 400,000 trollocs, thats a lot of other light soldiers killed thanks to a bard.

 

All these numbers are estimations true, but I doubt that only 10,000 Aeil died in the clan war, or that they burned and pillaged Cairhien and only killed 2000 civilians or only killed several hundred people in the area around malden. And all those seanchan and Arad Domani that killed each other due to Graendels machinations. So if we take only the 7 forsaken that have truly died they have a conservative kill ratio of 100,000 to 1, even more if we get rid of Belthamel and Be'lal, who never really got anywhere. Aginor of course has the biggest kill tally, being the creator of trollocs and all.

 

How is that failure? I think people associate the forsaken with giant battle robots of awesome destructive force, when really in a world with cahnnelers they are like master swordsmen. They have to work from the shadows, as they might smash non channelers, and have epic OP fights, but if they tried to fight all the forces of light head on they would not do so well. Lan might kill Gawyn in an epic swordfight (Please please please please) but in a fight against 50 random soldiers it would lead to his not so epic death. The forsaken had to take over countries and manipulate things from the background, if they had just killed the leadership of coutries and walked away Rand would just waltz in and assume leadership, like Cairhien, and Illian was pracitcally falling over itself to offer him leadership when Sammael and the king disappeared.

 

Meesana did quite well, she just died in a lame fashion.

[remylevin]

How many times have we even heard the Forsaken, DO, and Shaidar Haran say "you have failed" or another failure will not be tolerated?

 

Right-they have a mixed record. If they didn't, the series would be no fun-all the good guys/gals would be dead by now, and EotW would have been a single volume. But saying that they haven't succeeded at everything is not the same as saying they're useless as villains. the first is a fair assessment, the second isn't.

I agree, I find the amount of forskaen hate here amazing, and the idea that they have utterly failed and are useless. They must think the only way to redeem the forsaken is to have them kill all the hero's and win the last battle without effort, and having Liandrin as scary as the forsaken is only because Randland people don't whisper her name in fear, if they did everyone would agree that she was even more pathetic (she has been dacovale for how many books?).

 

By my estimation The forsaken have been responsible for between 7,000,000 and 1,000,000 people, with who knows how many killed in Seanchan. Thats not including any deaths the Seanchan caused by just trying to take back the lands. Its hard to estimate because I don't really know how many random civilians died in Cairhien and to the Shaido in Malden, as well as to all those trollocs the Forsaken were so fond of dropping every where in Randland, and about 500,000 of those have been soldiers, and I have a feeling that number would probably double or triple if Seanchan figures were know.

 

Asmodean denied Rand the use of something like 150,000 Aeil, along with 400 channeling wise ones, with casualties and breaking clans. How can that number be insignificant? That amount of aeil would probably kill 400,000 trollocs, thats a lot of other light soldiers killed thanks to a bard.

 

All these numbers are estimations true, but I doubt that only 10,000 Aeil died in the clan war, or that they burned and pillaged Cairhien and only killed 2000 civilians or only killed several hundred people in the area around malden. And all those seanchan and Arad Domani that killed each other due to Graendels machinations. So if we take only the 7 forsaken that have truly died they have a conservative kill ratio of 100,000 to 1, even more if we get rid of Belthamel and Be'lal, who never really got anywhere. Aginor of course has the biggest kill tally, being the creator of trollocs and all.

 

How is that failure? I think people associate the forsaken with giant battle robots of awesome destructive force, when really in a world with cahnnelers they are like master swordsmen. They have to work from the shadows, as they might smash non channelers, and have epic OP fights, but if they tried to fight all the forces of light head on they would not do so well. Lan might kill Gawyn in an epic swordfight (Please please please please) but in a fight against 50 random soldiers it would lead to his not so epic death. The forsaken had to take over countries and manipulate things from the background, if they had just killed the leadership of coutries and walked away Rand would just waltz in and assume leadership, like Cairhien, and Illian was pracitcally falling over itself to offer him leadership when Sammael and the king disappeared.

 

Meesana did quite well, she just died in a lame fashion.

 

Well put. The only thing I disagree with is the lameness of Mesanaa's death. I just reread the scene-i think her "breaking" was a great MoA for Egwene. But that's just me.

[smileyman]

 

By my estimation The forsaken have been responsible for between 7,000,000 and 1,000,000 people, with who knows how many killed in Seanchan. Thats not including any deaths the Seanchan caused by just trying to take back the lands. Its hard to estimate because I don't really know how many random civilians died in Cairhien and to the Shaido in Malden, as well as to all those trollocs the Forsaken were so fond of dropping every where in Randland, and about 500,000 of those have been soldiers, and I have a feeling that number would probably double or triple if Seanchan figures were know.

 

Asmodean denied Rand the use of something like 150,000 Aeil, along with 400 channeling wise ones, with casualties and breaking clans. How can that number be insignificant? That amount of aeil would probably kill 400,000 trollocs, thats a lot of other light soldiers killed thanks to a bard.

 

All these numbers are estimations true, but I doubt that only 10,000 Aeil died in the clan war, or that they burned and pillaged Cairhien and only killed 2000 civilians or only killed several hundred people in the area around malden. And all those seanchan and Arad Domani that killed each other due to Graendels machinations. So if we take only the 7 forsaken that have truly died they have a conservative kill ratio of 100,000 to 1, even more if we get rid of Belthamel and Be'lal, who never really got anywhere. Aginor of course has the biggest kill tally, being the creator of trollocs and all.

 

I think these numbers are way off. I can't see any way that 7 to 10 million people have died since the start of the series. I've requested a thread dedicated to this so we can move it over there because it's also related to a larger issue that's been bugging me which is the unrealistic size of the armies and their supporting populations.

[didymos]

How many times have we even heard the Forsaken, DO, and Shaidar Haran say "you have failed" or another failure will not be tolerated?

 

Dark One/Shaidar Haran:

 

LoC, SH mentions being able to "absolve yourselves of your errors" to Aran'gar and Osan'gar. Nothing about last chances, and the words "fail", "failed", or "failure" aren't used.

 

aCoS, DO to Moggy: "HOW DEEP IS YOUR FAILURE, MOGHEDIEN?" She also got some quality time with SH in the vacuole. Nothing about last chances, and the consequences of further screw-ups were obvious: broken mindtrap.

 

CoT, SH lectures Mesaana for not appearing when summoned. Again: nothing about last chances, and the words "fail", "failed", or "failure" aren't used.

 

tGS, SH to Semirhage: "You have failed greatly, Semirhage" and "You have been given one last chance." Since she died, no follow-through was needed. The DO may very well have intended that outcome all along, too.

 

ToM, SH to Graendal: "You have failed, Graendal." Then he gave her the Mesaana treatment.

 

Cyndane means "Last Chance" and we can presume the name came from the DO, because he also chose "Osan'gar" and "Aran'gar".

 

 

As to the Forsaken, what do you mean exactly? How often do they threaten Darkfriends? Not very. So far, they've tended to follow through (Carridin, various Black Ajah members), or the person got killed and there wasn't any need to. How often do they think about what might happen if they fail? Every now and again. How often do they taunt one another about consequences or recent punishments? A few times. How many times do they think about other Forsaken having been recently punished? Not many.

 

Anyway, what's your point? That people of the Dark get threatened and then punished and/or killed for screwing up? Well, yeah, they do. It's hardly all the time though.

[putts]

Remember, folks ... this is a book. And, as with every story, it must have a moral.

 

 

What do we learn about the forsaken? That no matter how much power or wealth a person gets, they will not be satisfied and the more they let that greed of power over come them, the more they falter, stumble and eventually fall flat on their face. And that, in the end, the thing that granted them all that power will be the thing to mean their inevitable demise.

 

And that is the important part. The demise is inevitable.

 

 

The most intriguing part of the whole thing ... the stories of the Forsaken did more to steer young children in the right direction then the actual FS did at accomplishing the DO's requests.

 

 

If you want to analyze strength ... ponder over why no matter how muddled these FS make things, the DO keeps coming back to them. Needing them to do his work. The overall moral of the story? Evil, no matter how strong and seemingly dominating it appears to be at times, is utterly weak.

[decrepid dragon]

 

By my estimation The forsaken have been responsible for between 7,000,000 and 1,000,000 people, with who knows how many killed in Seanchan. Thats not including any deaths the Seanchan caused by just trying to take back the lands. Its hard to estimate because I don't really know how many random civilians died in Cairhien and to the Shaido in Malden, as well as to all those trollocs the Forsaken were so fond of dropping every where in Randland, and about 500,000 of those have been soldiers, and I have a feeling that number would probably double or triple if Seanchan figures were know.

 

Asmodean denied Rand the use of something like 150,000 Aeil, along with 400 channeling wise ones, with casualties and breaking clans. How can that number be insignificant? That amount of aeil would probably kill 400,000 trollocs, thats a lot of other light soldiers killed thanks to a bard.

 

All these numbers are estimations true, but I doubt that only 10,000 Aeil died in the clan war, or that they burned and pillaged Cairhien and only killed 2000 civilians or only killed several hundred people in the area around malden. And all those seanchan and Arad Domani that killed each other due to Graendels machinations. So if we take only the 7 forsaken that have truly died they have a conservative kill ratio of 100,000 to 1, even more if we get rid of Belthamel and Be'lal, who never really got anywhere. Aginor of course has the biggest kill tally, being the creator of trollocs and all.

 

I think these numbers are way off. I can't see any way that 7 to 10 million people have died since the start of the series. I've requested a thread dedicated to this so we can move it over there because it's also related to a larger issue that's been bugging me which is the unrealistic size of the armies and their supporting populations.

whoops, that 1,000,000 is right but I meant 700,000

 

I think that the armies are pretty realistic except for Arad Doman having around 250,000 soldiers, Andor seemed to have about 100,000 at the height of their civil war, I am assuming it was the same with Tear and the others. The seanchan force opposing them was made of tens of thousands of seanchan and support from several different countries, so I guess I understand that. It has been mentioned Caemlyn and Bandar Eban have about 1,000,000 people each. I am not sure but I think we can assume that back then about 50% of people lived in rural communities, I am not sure as I haven't been able to find a real life population spread example, but I think that is being conservative, and more would have lived in the country. With a bit of geustimation I guess about each capital of every country has about the same amount of people, so each country has about 2-3 million people in it. Some would have less than this, like Amadicia, but there are all those randoms that don't live in a country, like in Far madding or Tar Volon. This would have to exclude Maya.

 

Although that million figure I gathered for Arad Doman may have been to feed the entire country, not just Bandar Eban (highly unlikely with the number of hundreds of thousands of soldiers that were getting thrown around.)

 

Well put. The only thing I disagree with is the lameness of Mesanaa's death. I just reread the scene-i think her "breaking" was a great MoA for Egwene. But that's just me.

Thanks, your list of forsakens plots was well put together too.

 

EDIT:

I am not sure how many people were in the world after the breaking, but I am assuming that there were quite a few, there is a lot of landmass in The WOT, and i am assuming that along with other parallels to our age that there were close to 6 billion people before the war of power broke out. Even if a lot of them died I get the feeling a lot were left in all the different places, as nations and armies sprung up pretty quick, and all the institutions that were created etc. If population were to in some way resemble our own and assuming there were between 14-27 million people left in the world (minority in Randland) then theoretically their world population should be between 170 and 265 million after 3000 years of growth (figures are based on estimated population growth from 3000 BC - 0 AD and 2000 BC - 1000 AD)

This really should have a new thread, I'm sure somebody out there has thought a lot harder about this than I have, and will actually have better reasons than 'I get the feeling...'

[Aagaard]

Demandred's location - The King of Murandy:

 

Before ToM i was pretty sure that Murandy was too insignificant to be of any importance to the shadow.

 

However with the invasion of Caemlyn, my position has changed, seeing as Murandy as Andor's neighbour seems a pretty good place to attack from.

 

What do we know of the invasion of Caemlyn and threats to Andor:

- Verin claims a shadowspawn army is massing in through the waygates of Caemlyn.

- Talmanes sees Caemlyn burning.

- The Black Tower is held by the shadow inside of Andor

- The enire Andoran army is in the Fields of Merrilor, including half of the Band of the Red Hand and Perrin's army

 

If Demmy is in Murandy he would be able to not only conquer one of the biggest and most prosperous cities in Randland, he would also break supply-lines for the Andoran army marching for the last battle.

 

His rule is secure and he is gathering for war. Graendal claimed in TGS that the DO always has favoured the ones that could bring armies to his cause. If Demmy is callaborating with Taim and Moridin the conquering of Andor would mean that the massive trolloc armies in the Borderlands would overwhelm the defenders, who are basically unable to gather supplies.

It also stands to reason that a Murandian army would be able to go to war with the Borderlanders in Far Madding if they hadn't been transfered by Rand.

 

A similar invasion of Tear and Illian would also make sense, however no evidence can be found for this.

 

King Roedran was also they only ruler not to meet with Eggy, but he is aware of the time of the meeting, so this would give him opportunity to attack when the armies to defend the cities is not there.

 

Murandy happened pretty late in the series so I would not be surprised if Demmy also had a finger in the red-veiled Aiel, the Murderer in Seandar and the quick learning of the new Asha'man in the BT.

 

 

 

I am pretty sure that Demandred will be a big thing in aMoL. And the forsaken are pretty much a big deal. If they were any bigger, the light would already have lost.

 

And I think it will be Mat that foils Demmy's plans, finally placing Mat against a truly legendary general.

[WhiskyJack]

Plan to attack Camelyn was not made because Rand had asked everyone to come to Merrilor.

[Aagaard]

Plan to attack Camelyn was not made because Rand had asked everyone to come to Merrilor.

 

No. But as a general of the Shadow, knowing that Meesana is in the WT, and being asked to the meeting himself (assuming that he is Roedran) he is aware that the armies are out of Caemlyn, making it a good time to commence the attack.

[WhiskyJack]

Plan to attack Camelyn was not made because Rand had asked everyone to come to Merrilor.

 

No. But as a general of the Shadow, knowing that Meesana is in the WT, and being asked to the meeting himself (assuming that he is Roedran) he is aware that the armies are out of Caemlyn, making it a good time to commence the attack.

 

 

Actually the plan was independently made. Verin knew about it. It' just a coincidence that Elanye was not in Camelyn at that time. Also, not all Andoran army went with her. Elanye already knew that attack was coming..

[Aagaard]

I am aware the plan was made beforehand, but this does not change the fact that if Demmy is in Murandy this would explain why they attack Caemlyn, and he would have great incentive to be the one leading it. He would not be afraid of losing, since through his role as Roedran he would be aware that a big part of the army is out of the city.

 

Elayne knows about the attack, but she was not supposed to know, which is the only reason why she has let some of her army stay back.

[Elan Tedronai]

I’m afraid the vast majority of you have it completely wrong when you criticize the FS. They’re not bad villains—they’ve been great villains. I think your mistakes stem from two fundamental misunderstandings about the books:

 

First, as RJ made clear over and over and over again, the big fight between good and evil in the books is taking place on two levels simultaneously. The first level is the obvious one: wars and shadowspawn and things that go BOOM. The second level is about subverting the champion of the light (Rand) to the dark side. If you don’t believe me, think about the numerous clues that are sprinkled throughout the series: the “chess” game (what was it called again?) that Moridin plays in one of the earlier books, in which the best way to win is to make the “fisher” piece (i.e. Rand) switch to your side; Verin’s musings in TGS that Rand doesn’t realize how the game is actually being played; the DO allowing Semirhage to be killed by TP balefire; etc., etc. etc. So, when we evaluate the FS’s accomplishments, we should first evaluate how well they’ve, basically, driven Rand to (the brink of) insanity and switching sides. Let’s do that, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: the big kahuna-multiple attempts early on to subvert Rand to the dark by tempting him with power, threatening him, using the ghost of his mother etc. Realized his direct efforts weren’t working after Rand killed him for the third time, took a step back from direct involvement and let the other FS take the lead in this fight.

Lanfear: also tried to tempt Rand early on directly, using promises of sex and power. Again, when direct temptation failed, the dark switched to other tactics to subvert Rand, namely, causing him as much physical and psychological pain as possible. In Lanfear’s case, this translated into torturing Rand and women he cared about directly for a while, then robbing him (though not intentionally) of his main advisor, the one teacher and Aes Sedai he was finally learning to trust, Moiraine. Also, throw in the guilt that Rand ends up feeling, both over the death of Moiraine and his role in it (i.e., did not stop Lanfear when he could have), and we have a major step towards hardening/turning Rand to the dark by Lanfear. Now, perhaps, a new major role in this fight.

Mesaana behind the plot to put Rand in a box and torture him for days and days. During this time is when Rand’s psyche takes on the definite downward spiral that we see all the way to the end of TGS. Note that in the box Rand starts to directly communicate with LTT, who is the avatar of his psychosis in the series.

Sammael his final battle with Rand takes Rand back to SL, where he kills Leah (sp?) out of mercy, yet another action he agonizes about since. Also responsible for the deaths of maidens that were protecting Rand during the battle of Cairhien, deaths Rand feels guilty about.

Semirhage probably the most successful FS in this respect, except maybe Ishi who is directing everything from behind the scenes. Takes Rand’s hand. Sows doubts in the hearts of Rand’s followers and in his own heart as to his sanity. Pushes Rand over the edge into evil territory by torturing him in the worst possible way that you could torture Rand/LTT-making him (almost) kill a woman he loves. Puts Rand in such a box that he finally reaches to the only tool that is available to him-the DO. Pretty much manages to turn Rand to the dark (think all the food spoiling when he’s around in Arad Doman), if not for Tam and the revelation in VoG.

Demaandred hmmm…not sure, but probably had role with Mesaana in the Dumai Wells/torture of Rand debacle.

Asmodean, Be’lal, Aginor, Belthamel, Rahvin, Graendal, Moghedien not a whole lot in this respect. Too busy fighting the other aspect of the war (see below) or trying to hurt Rand by taking out his friends (trying to kill Mat, Nyn, Perrin etc.)

 

Second, you’re misunderstanding the odds that FS face in the more conventional war (the one with shadowspawn and armies and things that go BOOM.) In the beginning of the series, Randland was in the perfect position for the Dragon/emperor of the world to use in TG: most of the nations of the world were led by, and composed of, non-DFs; they were just weak/divided enough to yield to a figure like the Dragon who would unify them, but strong enough to contribute tremendous military forces to the fight against the shadow. The WT was unified and working (mostly) as a unified force against the shadow. Here are the odds the FS faced: 13 super-powerful/knowledgeable channelers+some DFs+shadowspawn v. ALL OF HUMANITY (which includes hundreds, maybe thousands of channelers.) Let’s see what they accomplished in light of these long odds, shall we?

 

Ishamael/Moridin: pulling all the strings from the darkness. Set up the BA, maintained the coterie of DFs, sowed division amongst the world’s nations, and stopped them from being unified in one great, strong empire. Also, probably behind the creation of the legions and legions of shadowspawn in the blight.

Asmodean created a major rift in the Aiel, with tremendous consequences.

Mesaana caused a schism in the WT, probably the worst blow the shadow made against the unified forces of the light.

Sammael took over Illian, a major nation. Dispersed Shaido to the four winds to cause trouble, which they have beyond measure.

Semirhage again, very consequential role. Wiped out any chance of reinforcements for the light from the Seanchan empire; likely behind the aggressive stance of the Seanchan towards Rand and the other nations.

Be’lal took over Tear, a major nation.

Rahvin took over Andor, a major nation; destroyed the monarchy there. This is especially significant since Andor was probably the nation with the most capacity to help the Dragon in his fight in the beginning of the books. Instead it’s devolved into infighting for the whole series.

Graendal basically destroyed Arad Doman through scheming. Neutralized one of the great captains (Ituralde) by sending him against the Seanchan; responsible for countless deaths among potential light-side forces in Arad Doman, Tarabon and Seanchan.

Belthamel tried to manipulate Egwene/rebel AS (failed).

Demaandred hmmm…again, I wish I knew. Probably behind the BT, which could be the most devastating move in this aspect of the war that the shadow has (think LOTS of stuff that goes BOOM!!) Perhaps behind Masema. And also, probably, behind the borderlanders abandoning their posts.

Aginor, Moghedien, Lanfear not a whole lot in this respect.

 

So you see, it’s not that the FS have not accomplished much despite their promise. The story indicates that they have accomplished a s**t-ton despite really long odds. You’re mistaking a lack of direct screen time for a lack of accomplishments. In reality, almost everything bad that has happened in the story (and there has been a lot of that) has happened through their handiwork-we just get to see the results, not their immediate actions.

 

Sorry for the length (can anyone say ‘book’?) of this post-just had to get it all out there… phew...

 

In the end results speak for themselves and all forsaken plots has amounted to nothing. In the war of power the forsaken continous victories has led to lews therin final act of desperation which resulted in the male half of the source being tainted and him killing his own flesh and blood.

 

In the third age all the forsaken plots have been rectified. With almost all of them getting wasted in the process. They have sunk into cannon fodder territory

 

Now You're just being ridiculous. All the things I mentioned were the results. I didn't even get to all the foiled plots (see numerous attacks on Rand, Mat, Perrin, the supergirls etc.) Lots of bad things have happened in the series to the light-side characters and to the light side cause. By your standard, nothing would validate a villain unless they actually won the fight in the end. That's just silly-if the only thing they can do to be a good villain is to win absolutely, then you've pretty much eliminated almost all books in the fantasy genre from contention for having good villains.

The FS have been excellent villains-they've presented a very human brand of evil, without necessarily falling into the kind of schlock that is common in other works. I'm not sure where all your bitterness towards their roles comes from-it's kind of baffling, really.

 

 

George RR martin's books shows what good villains are capable of. WOT villains are just paper baddies,

[nleseul]

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

 

moment's notice? the forsaken were aware of rand's plot to clean saidin. Infact they had a huge meeting about it. Where moridin said you will take him or kill him referring to rand. which by the way does not even make sense as he helped rand against sammael. Which again brings me back to how stupid the shadow are!

 

Yes, but for most of WH Rand was constantly moving and laying false trails, so they weren't able to track him down. It wasn't until they actually felt the channeling start at Shadar Logoth that they knew where and when the cleansing would be.

[Cyf]

George RR martin's books shows what good villains are capable of. WOT villains are just paper baddies,

 

Because, of course, all genres need to be the same. This is why all comic books need to be trite Iron Age stories with murderers and hookers! Sorry, but I really hate it when preference is turned into quality. There's a difference. There's different genres and grades of fiction. And not because one type is superior to another.

 

Don't people recognize the subjectivity of personal enjoyment anymore? Heck, I like Martin, but gosh. That man's fans (and Erikson's)...

 

The Forsaken were successful. They just didn't do as much as you'd personally prefer. Sheesh. :)

[Jack Shaftoe]

Because, of course, all genres need to be the same. This is why all comic books need to be trite Iron Age stories with murderers and hookers! Sorry, but I really hate it when preference is turned into quality. There's a difference. There's different genres and grades of fiction. And not because one type is superior to another.

 

Don't people recognize the subjectivity of personal enjoyment anymore? Heck, I like Martin, but gosh. That man's fans (and Erikson's)...

 

Fair enough but nothing really forced RJ to stack the odds so much in favour of the Forsaken early on, yet refuse to allow them to ever kill an important good guy. Let's be honest, if any of the Forsaken had half a clue, the Shadow would have won long ago. The story relies on them being morons, yet it also insists that they are really cunning. This discrepancy is the problem for me, not the fact that RJ has a different approach to Martin or Erikson. I want he Shadow to fail because the good guys are impressive, not because the Forsaken are retards.

 

By your standard, nothing would validate a villain unless they actually won the fight in the end. That's just silly-if the only thing they can do to be a good villain is to win absolutely, then you've pretty much eliminated almost all books in the fantasy genre from contention for having good villains.

 

A villain doesn't need to win to be considered formidable. They do need to pose an actual threat, though, especially when the balance of power is stacked in their favour. Was any reader scared that Graedal was going to succeed and kill Perrin?

[Cyf]

Nope, but that's not the sort of genre Wheel of Time is. Then again, I've never gotten the point of view that there must be risk of death to be scary. Rand's lost a hand, went insane, and more, that's more interesting consequences to me than 'Oh. They died!'

 

As for Jordan, well. The Forsaken were legends. We've actually seen that many of the legends are true but only in part. It's become obvious that the White Tower didn't know what it was talking about. This is normal, it's been thousands of years for gosh sakes. *shrug* And the Forsaken have done a great deal. I say again: Splitting the Tower. Breaking the Seanchan as a world force for TG at least. Nearly driving Rand to /destroy the world/. Aren't those enough? It really reads like the argument is 'they haven't won or do things the way I want, so they aren't real villains' to me.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Fair enough but nothing really forced RJ to stack the odds so much in favour of the Forsaken early on, yet refuse to allow them to ever kill an important good guy. Let's be honest, if any of the Forsaken had half a clue, the Shadow would have won long ago. The story relies on them being morons, yet it also insists that they are really cunning.

 

Well said. That's basically the crux of my whole complaint. It's not that they're not living up to the expectations of the legends from the Age of Legends. It's that they're not living up to the expectations of Robert Jordan.

 

They're petty? Fine. They're out of their element? Fine. Great, in fact. I like it when authors resist the urge to write their antagonists with absurd levels of competence. That's not the issue here. The issue is that most every time one of these jokers appears on screen, they bear no resemblance to the menacing and lethal enemies they are proclaimed to be off-screen. And then they get killed off by dei ex machina left and right.

 

The Forsaken are usually killed off moments before (or after!) killing one of the heroes. Thus, it's true that if they had not been killed exactly then the series would have hit a hard brick wall--on several occasions. (I'd still love to see how things would have turned out if Lanfear had succeeded in taking Rand away with her at the docks and persuading him to join her cause.) I think the appropriate criticism to make is not that RJ had no choice but to kill the Forsaken off when he did; I think it's that he needed to have written the story more effectively, so that the heroes could have avoided these deathtrap situations in the first place. Remember when Moiraine rushed everyone out of Illian because she discovered Sammael was ruling there? That was realistic. "Sammael?! Oh no! We have to get out of the whole country, immediately!"

 

The Forsaken are supposed to have almost a clear shot to victory. RJ himself said so. Survival for the Light should have come from the heroes' cunning and skill, and guile...not dumb luck. The White Tower had the means to hold off the Forsaken for at least a little while, but no one else in Randland did. The Forsaken should have easily won free run of the rest of the continent, failing to destroy our heroes only because our heroes were too clever to get caught as they came of age and developed their own strength to mount a true resistance to the Shadow. But RJ just wasn't able to write that kind of a story, and what we got instead was a story which requires the Forsaken to be incapable of advancing their agenda.

 

By the same token, I am disappointed in the lack of Forsaken character development. Except for Ishamael and Lanfear, they each seem to be same basic baddie stereotype, but with one distinctive character flaw. I was really looking forward to learning more about the Forsaken as people, but we never got the chance. Their dialogue and POVs were always written so cryptically, deliberately withholding information that would have shed light on them. We've learned more about the Forsaken in the BWB than we have in the entire series so far. That feeds in to why it feels so unsatisfying when they fail to achieve success and instead get killed off.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Freeing the DO would destroy the Pattern and existence. The DO hasn't shared that little secret with them, so the way to free him, by destroying everything, isn't known to them, and if they did know, they'd switch sides in a heartbeat. They're all being manipulated, aside from Moridin.

 

So either the Light is defeated in a long and bloody drawn out war in which all resistance is destroyed and the DO can continue to slowly unravel the Pattern until he destroys it all (Plan B) and risk the Forsaken realizing what is happening and then working agains thim as well, or he can manipulate the Dragon into despair and madness and make him do the dirty work for him without the hassle of a long drawn out war (Plan A). Only Moridin is in on Plan A. And all the other Forsaken don't understand everything about Plan B. They think the DO is a conqueror who wants to rule the world, not destroy it.

 

How does any of that change how the Forsaken, if they actually thought, even a tiny bit, should behave?

 

No, they don't understand that a fully free DO means that all existence ends, but so what? What they do understand is that if they want their cookie, the DO needs to be free.

DO -> Free = Job One.

 

Is what they're doing, what they've done doing anything to accomplish their primary task, their Job One?

 

No. All they've done is create a stronger, more cohesive, more experienced opposing force. All they've done is indulge their petty passions and insure their own defeat.

 

That's the epitome of dumb. Also witless. Useless. Pitiful. Pathetic. Self-destructive. Brain dead.....

 

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

[WhiskyJack]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

 

Well, I would have made the same point, but we did just see the gholam get kicked through a Skimming gate without any apparent harm to it.

 

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

 

moment's notice? the forsaken were aware of rand's plot to clean saidin. Infact they had a huge meeting about it. Where moridin said you will take him or kill him referring to rand. which by the way does not even make sense as he helped rand against sammael. Which again brings me back to how stupid the shadow are!

 

 

They didn't know when or how but obviously you are here to just bad mouth forsaken so go ahead;)

[WhiskyJack]

All the dark one had to do was instruct one his forsaken to send in the gholam during the cleansing of the taint. Send in all 6 at once.

 

Well, we have no evidence that any gholam other than the one chasing Mat are even available right now. Though telling that one to forget about Mat and kill off all the super channelers gathered in one place seems kind of obvious. Maybe they just couldn't find it or transport it there in the short notice they had?

 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. All these what ifs are just besides the point. The fact of the matter is that the shadow had a gholam in their possession. All they had to do was take it to where rand and co was and unleash it on them. Couple of minutes later everyone would have been dead and buried and the taint still present on saidin.

 

But ofcourse that's asking too much of the shadow.

 

I am pretty sure gateways for not safe for Gholam so they could not have taken him just anywhere. So I don't think it's a valid point.

 

Well, I would have made the same point, but we did just see the gholam get kicked through a Skimming gate without any apparent harm to it.

 

I think the simplest way to justify the gholam not having been summoned to the cleansing is just that it can't be contacted at a moment's notice like the Forsaken or random DFs can, since there's no way to attach tracking weaves to it.

 

I am not sure what the exact quote was but I don't think LTT said that Shadow spawns cannot enter the gateways. He only said they will come out dead.

[decrepid dragon]

 

Freeing the DO would destroy the Pattern and existence. The DO hasn't shared that little secret with them, so the way to free him, by destroying everything, isn't known to them, and if they did know, they'd switch sides in a heartbeat. They're all being manipulated, aside from Moridin.

 

So either the Light is defeated in a long and bloody drawn out war in which all resistance is destroyed and the DO can continue to slowly unravel the Pattern until he destroys it all (Plan B) and risk the Forsaken realizing what is happening and then working agains thim as well, or he can manipulate the Dragon into despair and madness and make him do the dirty work for him without the hassle of a long drawn out war (Plan A). Only Moridin is in on Plan A. And all the other Forsaken don't understand everything about Plan B. They think the DO is a conqueror who wants to rule the world, not destroy it.

 

How does any of that change how the Forsaken, if they actually thought, even a tiny bit, should behave?

 

No, they don't understand that a fully free DO means that all existence ends, but so what? What they do understand is that if they want their cookie, the DO needs to be free.

DO -> Free = Job One.

 

Is what they're doing, what they've done doing anything to accomplish their primary task, their Job One?

 

No. All they've done is create a stronger, more cohesive, more experienced opposing force. All they've done is indulge their petty passions and insure their own defeat.

 

That's the epitome of dumb. Also witless. Useless. Pitiful. Pathetic. Self-destructive. Brain dead.....

 

Elan Morin Tedronai's analysis that the Dark One MUST eventually win is based on one fundamentally wrong assumption - that those who choose to be its proxies will actually work to make that happen. Apparently "the Forsaken" are incapable of doing that. Even Moridin.

I find it really ironic how some people that sometimes the hero's seem too omnipotent, and then on the other hand people say that if the enemy henchmen don't exhibit that same omnipotence they are failures as characters. Do we expect Mat to get more powerful than the Dark One? Maybe some of us do but then why should we expect Damandred or Graendel to stay more powerful than Rand?

 

And I would say that trying to turn all nations against Rand and other light side peoples is on the way to job one. How else would you have them do it, apart from having all of them mystically know exactly were Rand is and all jumping him at once? Would if they individually went around ambushng small patrols of soldiers and killing them, 'getting their hands dirty', be more effective? Perhaps laughing it up diabollically in Shayul Ghul, thinking how awesome their trolloc armies were? What would make them better (apart from actually winning the battle)?

 

And if they did somehow wipe the world and reduce it to ashes, causing chaos itself would not solve anything as the more chaos a country is in the easier it is for Rand to get it to fall in line, they would not get their 'cookie', they would be like "Yay, I get to rule over 1000 square miles of dirt and and a couple trollocs. Well what the hell did I join the DO for?". I hardly think they believe that the DO is going to repopulate and build the entire world back to AoL technology for them, they want to enjoy being able to rule. If they did aim for total destruction then they would be witless nd self destructive, as it would go against their aims for joining the shadow in the first place.

 

Some people wouldn't be satisfied with the forsaken unless the Wot ended with a dark victory in TEOTW.

[smileyman]

whoops, that 1,000,000 is right but I meant 700,000

 

OK. That makes more sense

 

I think that the armies are pretty realistic except for Arad Doman having around 250,000 soldiers, Andor seemed to have about 100,000 at the height of their civil war, I am assuming it was the same with Tear and the others. The seanchan force opposing them was made of tens of thousands of seanchan and support from several different countries, so I guess I understand that. It has been mentioned Caemlyn and Bandar Eban have about 1,000,000 people each. I am not sure but I think we can assume that back then about 50% of people lived in rural communities, I am not sure as I haven't been able to find a real life population spread example, but I think that is being conservative, and more would have lived in the country. With a bit of geustimation I guess about each capital of every country has about the same amount of people, so each country has about 2-3 million people in it. Some would have less than this, like Amadicia, but there are all those randoms that don't live in a country, like in Far madding or Tar Volon. This would have to exclude Maya.

 

I think these army sizes are unrealistic for the type of culture we're looking at. Randland is based on various Medieval and Renaissance cultures.

 

In 1500 London had a population of 50,000. The population of the whole of England was about 2.5 to 3 million. An army of 100,000 would be 5% of the total population which is actually a huge portion of the population to put an army on the field, especially then. (I'm using England as the example here because I always felt that Andor was a close analog).

 

Go back 300 years to 1200 and the population of London was somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 with the whole of England being about 1.5 million. I don't get the impression that Andor is anywhere near a 13th century England in technology, which would indicate a corresponding drop in food production, leading to a lower population density and overall population.

 

 

EDIT:

I am not sure how many people were in the world after the breaking, but I am assuming that there were quite a few, there is a lot of landmass in The WOT, and i am assuming that along with other parallels to our age that there were close to 6 billion people before the war of power broke out. Even if a lot of them died I get the feeling a lot were left in all the different places, as nations and armies sprung up pretty quick, and all the institutions that were created etc. If population were to in some way resemble our own and assuming there were between 14-27 million people left in the world (minority in Randland) then theoretically their world population should be between 170 and 265 million after 3000 years of growth (figures are based on estimated population growth from 3000 BC - 0 AD and 2000 BC - 1000 AD)

 

6 billion is pushing it. There are 6.7 billion people in all of the world right now. China has 1.3 billion people in it. I don't think we have a real clear idea of the size of Randland, but I figure population wise at the time of the breaking it would probably be between China at the very high end, and England at the very low end. I get the impression that the size of Randland is about the size of the England, which currently has a population of 50 million. There's no way in the world that there's 6 billion people in Randland at the time of the Breaking.

 

This really should have a new thread, I'm sure somebody out there has thought a lot harder about this than I have, and will actually have better reasons than 'I get the feeling...'

 

I requested one last night.