Discuss The Forsaken

[Braden]

While I agree the Forsaken have been useless that is because of their nature. Even in the Great War they did not work together. They compete for power and develop their own plans and goals in order to gain favor where the forces of LTT fought together for survival.

 

The Forsaken are channellers from another era entirely, they are more powerful and much more knowledgable then any current AS. One can expect they underestimated the inhabitants of the world naturally and fell into their old behaviours. For instance Rahvin setting up in Andor, Semirhage in Seanchan, Sammael in Illian ....

 

The forsaken came into a world where the lights forces were scattered, mistrusting of each other and some didn't even believe in the Dark One / Trollocs / Forsaken. It is understandable they went back to fighting for power and not really working together to enforce a crushing victory as the above posters mentioned. Each Forsaken searched for tools and established their own power bases and plans. They actually worked against each other and coveted their tools / weapons they found.

 

The only one that found a gholam was Graendel, maybe sending it to the WT would have created a rift with Messnna so she didn't do this. She also may not have brought it to Shaidar Logath because it is possible weaves of saidin or saidar enhanced saidin could hurt it. Even if it is immune to all weavings, I imagine with that many channellers someone would have figured out that they can project objects at it to hurt it. The Gholam is an assassin not a front line fighter sending it into a warzone would have been a waste and it likely would have been destroyed.

[Cirin]

One thing to remember, though, is that ultimately the Dark One doesn't really care that much... he uses them as he sees fit, but he also is looking at an eternal timeline, so to speak. If his helpers prove incompetent this time around its a bummer, but he'll get them next time. Moridin is the same way in many regards. Thus I don't think he cares that much about how "effective" they are at killing Rand, just at sowing enough chaos so that he fails.

 

But yeah, if they wanted to kill Rand, Mat, or Perrin, the Forsaken certainly could have done a better job... I won't argue there. Graendel's plan to kill Perrin was about the weakest ever, Perrin's dreamwalking abilites withstanding. A couple of Grey Men, a band of Trollocs, and one channeler should've been able to take him out pretty effectively... ah well. Maybe his ta'verenness prevents direct assault for some reason, or maybe the Forsaken have to operate under very very strict orders of engagement for some reason.

[Alternate34]

Wow, the tired canard that the Forsaken are useless.

 

First, I will deal with the argument about why didn't the Forsaken just smoke everyone with super channeling powers. There are several reasons. Revealing themselves so early would invite confrontation immediately. Despite what you think, that confrontation they would likely lose. The channelers at the time were well organized. The White Tower had supporters in the Borderlands as well. Yes, many would die, but they could combat the Forsaken if they just formed a super team and fought. The Forces of Light would have little difficulty mustering an army if the Forsaken came right out and went on a rampage. It was a better strategy to foster even more mistrust among the forces of Light.

 

Second, darkfriends are not easily gathered. You need to have secret meetings and secret messages sent to everyone. It is difficult enough to have an large army and communicate orders to every soldier. With Darkfriends, it is far more difficult to just get everyone to go to this one place and gather an army from the various hearts and groups of darkfriends.

 

Third, the Forsaken do not easily ally with one another. The Forsaken alliances that existed throughout the book were tenuous enough as it is. If the Forsaken did easily ally, it would make one of their key distinctions from the Light evaporate. They do not take orders unless under great duress or force. They each have their own goals as well. They want to further the Shadow, but in their way, to their benefit.

 

Now, as to why despite those restrictions based upon personality and circumstance, the Forsaken were successful:

 

-Ishamael/Moridin managed to prevent the development of alliances and society in general between the AoL and the Current Age. Imagine if Artur Hawkwing managed to unite the entire continent and had not been made paranoid of Aes Sedai. That would be checkmate right there.

 

-The Green Man was destroyed by Aginor? Belthamel? I can't remember which one. He would have been quite helpful.

 

-Took over many major countries or threw them into chaos. Rahvin-Andor. Sammael-Illian. Be'lal-Tear. Semirhage-Seanchan. Graendal-Shara. Mesaana had the White Tower swarming with the Black Ajah and managed to oust the Amyrlin Seat and replace her with an incompetent. Asmodean+Lanfear managed to hack off the Shaido. All of this has created distractions away from the main goal of marshalling for the Last Battle.

 

-Rand was very close to destroying the world. The Forsaken who contributed to that. Mesaana got him in the box. Semirhage destroyed his hand and sent him over the edge with the sad bracelets. Lanfear drove him batty being a woman and getting rid of Moiraine. Rahvin killed some of his friends temporarily. Rand's psychosis ruined a potential alliance with the Seanchan and caused a huge disturbance in the Pattern.

 

-The Black Tower and consequently many male channelers are under control of the Shadow. The Black Tower itself is now a near impregnable stronghold.

[Guest Stoyadoll42]

I see a lot of people relating the wheel of time story to Arthurian legend. While i agree there are many parallels, i think maybe we should look towards norse mythology to figure out some plot points. Mat is clearly Odin. If you are not familiar with Norse mythology i will explain. Odin was hanged by a spear for the price of his great knowledge. This is clearly the same thing that happened to Mat. Odin also is one eyed, and is portrayed as a wanderer wearing a great brimmed hat. Again, thats Mat. Lastly Odin has 2 ravens that accompany him, Huginn and Muninn. Those names mean "Thought" and "memory". Both of those words are engraved on Mat's Ashenderi, and he is also the lord of ravens.

 

I bring mat up becuase it shows a very strong parallel, and i think that Rand is a great parallel for Tyr (and Perrin for Thor). Tyr is a god of war and justice and is often portrayed as a man with 1 hand missing. I also think that the breaking of the world is a good parallel to Ragnarök, the Norse armageddon. I'm not as familliar with the female figures in norse mythos but i was thinking it might be a interesting way to figure out how lanfear fits in with rand at the end and possibly her demands from her trip through the arches.

[Alternate34]

One thing to remember, though, is that ultimately the Dark One doesn't really care that much... he uses them as he sees fit, but he also is looking at an eternal timeline, so to speak. If his helpers prove incompetent this time around its a bummer, but he'll get them next time. Moridin is the same way in many regards. Thus I don't think he cares that much about how "effective" they are at killing Rand, just at sowing enough chaos so that he fails.

 

But yeah, if they wanted to kill Rand, Mat, or Perrin, the Forsaken certainly could have done a better job... I won't argue there. Graendel's plan to kill Perrin was about the weakest ever, Perrin's dreamwalking abilites withstanding. A couple of Grey Men, a band of Trollocs, and one channeler should've been able to take him out pretty effectively... ah well. Maybe his ta'verenness prevents direct assault for some reason, or maybe the Forsaken have to operate under very very strict orders of engagement for some reason.

 

Grey Men, not really. He probably can smell them, he has enhanced senses in general, he has a substantial guard around him. Additionally, he is ta'veren and would likely detect them with that help. And while one Gray man is unnoticeable (and has failed before against ta-veren) a group probably would be more noticeable, even though they are Soulless.

 

A band of Trollocs was tried and failed and actually unified him with Galad. Also, Perrin is surrounded by an army with scouts. You can't just hide a bunch of Trollocs.

 

One channeler might have worked, but Perrin does have channelers with him to prevent one from destroying him. Graendal had an interest in keeping herself hidden so she isn't discovered to be alive. Graendal's stronghold was destroyed so she may have some issues getting a channeler ready.

 

For Rand, they have received several orders not to kill him.

 

For Mat, they sent a gholam after him, the deadliest assassin known to this age or the last. Channellers would do little to Mat because he has Aes Sedai around him alot.

 

Seriously, they have failed to kill people who bend fate aruond themselves and try their best to keep themselves hidden or surrounded by an army. Not really damning.

[Tom Sawyer]

Wow, the tired canard that the Forsaken are useless.

 

First, I will deal with the argument about why didn't the Forsaken just smoke everyone with super channeling powers. There are several reasons. Revealing themselves so early would invite confrontation immediately. Despite what you think, that confrontation they would likely lose. The channelers at the time were well organized. The White Tower had supporters in the Borderlands as well. Yes, many would die, but they could combat the Forsaken if they just formed a super team and fought. The Forces of Light would have little difficulty mustering an army if the Forsaken came right out and went on a rampage. It was a better strategy to foster even more mistrust among the forces of Light.

 

What are you talking about? They had a couple hundred Black Ajah. Smoke Tar Valon by forming a super-circle and levelling the island - that's the first two minutes of the fight. Then send a dozen Aes Sedai to every country so they get people who "can't lie" telling the rulers there that this other country has a ter'angreal that they used to blow up the White Tower and they're now making a play to take over the world. Get the nations fighting each other without having to worry about this powerful, unifying force which has the strength and ability to mount an effective opposition to them. Fifty Black Ajah then form the new White Tower to rally the nations for the upcoming Last Battle and call all the remaining Aes Sedai to come and join them and have a bunch of Halfmen on hand to 13x13 anyone as soon as they show up.

 

Once that's done, you then say to each other "OK, so Lews Therin's been reborn and he's off looking for some magic horn. What's our plan for this guy?"

 

It just seems like something along these lines would have been a good step one that perhaps somebody who'd had a few thousand years to sit around and plan might have come up with.

[Alternate34]

 

What are you talking about? They had a couple hundred Black Ajah. Smoke Tar Valon by forming a super-circle and levelling the island - that's the first two minutes of the fight. Then send a dozen Aes Sedai to every country so they get people who "can't lie" telling the rulers there that this other country has a ter'angreal that they used to blow up the White Tower and they're now making a play to take over the world. Get the nations fighting each other without having to worry about this powerful, unifying force which has the strength and ability to mount an effective opposition to them. Fifty Black Ajah then form the new White Tower to rally the nations for the upcoming Last Battle and call all the remaining Aes Sedai to come and join them and have a bunch of Halfmen on hand to 13x13 anyone as soon as they show up.

 

Once that's done, you then say to each other "OK, so Lews Therin's been reborn and he's off looking for some magic horn. What's our plan for this guy?"

 

It just seems like something along these lines would have been a good step one that perhaps somebody who'd had a few thousand years to sit around and plan might have come up with.

 

Your right. It's incredibly easy to organize a group like the Black Ajah to form a super circle to destroy the White Tower is easy. That was sarcasm. Here is why this would be impossible to work.

 

(1) Each member of the Black Ajah only knows two other members of the Black Ajah. There are several reasons for this. They have absolute need of secrecy. Discovered, they would hunted and destroyed. Of course, this puts a little damper on mass organization. It's like a giant game of telephone. The Shadow, as it exists, cannot just issue an order like video game and have everyone obey. It takes time for the order to disseminate among the members. Additionally, it is not until the seals weaken that the Black Ajah has a leader of the sorts to organize them.

 

(2) The Black Ajah are naturally distrustful of all in their ranks. They will challenge whoever gives the order if they think they can win. When you are dealing with a bunch of backstabbing mistrustful people, surprisingly, they are not easily pliable. It takes manipulation and deceit to get them to do as you want. In your example, who does the commanding? Ishamael? Mesaana? Even these Forsaken are competing with one another. They would give conflicting orders.

 

(3) Smoking the White Tower would not even kill half the Aes Sedai even if it was done as many were travelling. It would also leave most of the channelers living alive. It would also be a gigantic giveaway that the Shadow is on the move. Done prior to securing the rule of other nations, it would be a huge signal flare to the Light to start organizing. It would provide a rallying point for all. There are a lot of things that can be hidden. The annihilation of a city would be very difficult to hide. Of course, smoking the White Tower does nothing to stop the Dragon Reborn from gathering everyone together and as noted above, helps him, making it impossible to discount his claims.

 

(4) Not even sure if razing the island is entirely possible. You'd need to at least steal a bunch of angreal and sa'angreal. Additionally, you'd have to make sure that those in the Tower would not have access to them. The only time we have seen city levelling powers is when Rand was walking around with the Choedan Kal. Also, channeling that much of the power would give the Aes Sedal some warning that something was about to happen.

 

You really underestimate how difficult it is to organize a large group of people, especially those bent toward evil.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

(1) Each member of the Black Ajah only knows two other members of the Black Ajah. There are several reasons for this. They have absolute need of secrecy. Discovered, they would hunted and destroyed. Of course, this puts a little damper on mass organization. It's like a giant game of telephone. The Shadow, as it exists, cannot just issue an order like video game and have everyone obey. It takes time for the order to disseminate among the members. Additionally, it is not until the seals weaken that the Black Ajah has a leader of the sorts to organize them.

 

 

Yes. If only there were some sort mirror world which only the Forsaken had access to where they could pull the Black Ajah into during their dreams and order them to show up across the river from the city the following morning. It's too bad there's nothing like that in the stories.

 

 

 

(2) The Black Ajah are naturally distrustful of all in their ranks. They will challenge whoever gives the order if they think they can win. When you are dealing with a bunch of backstabbing mistrustful people, surprisingly, they are not easily pliable. It takes manipulation and deceit to get them to do as you want. In your example, who does the commanding? Ishamael? Mesaana? Even these Forsaken are competing with one another. They would give conflicting orders.

 

 

Yes, because if there's one characteristic that the BA hasn't displayed, it's instant obedience to anything that the Chosen are trying to do - they always challenge them and never bow down and swear instant obedience. Also, Ishamael's doing the commanding of the Forsaken and the rest of them don't even know the names of the current countries of the world or speak the language, so it's tough for them to start plotting for at least a couple of days. Also, for the BA, a command such as "The island is being blown up in the morning. If you don't get off it and come to us, you'll be dead along with everyone else" is likely the sort of command they would at least tentatively agree to accept and not just sleep in because they don't trust that everything's on the up and up.

 

 

(3) Smoking the White Tower would not even kill half the Aes Sedai even if it was done as many were travelling. It would also leave most of the channelers living alive. It would also be a gigantic giveaway that the Shadow is on the move. Done prior to securing the rule of other nations, it would be a huge signal flare to the Light to start organizing. It would provide a rallying point for all. There are a lot of things that can be hidden. The annihilation of a city would be very difficult to hide. Of course, smoking the White Tower does nothing to stop the Dragon Reborn from gathering everyone together and as noted above, helps him, making it impossible to discount his claims.

 

Fine, so you only get half of the Aes Sedai. You're still miles ahead of where you were when you started the day and you're the only organized group of survivors who are actively getting a start on rallying the survivors.

 

 

 

(4) Not even sure if razing the island is entirely possible. You'd need to at least steal a bunch of angreal and sa'angreal. Additionally, you'd have to make sure that those in the Tower would not have access to them. The only time we have seen city levelling powers is when Rand was walking around with the Choedan Kal. Also, channeling that much of the power would give the Aes Sedal some warning that something was about to happen.

 

 

Of course it's possible. Rand told Taim to hold as much of the power as he could and that was considered enough to level everything within a mile or so. Each one of the Forsaken is about that strong and a circle of 72 with them in it would be more than enough to destroy a city.

 

 

You really underestimate how difficult it is to organize a large group of people, especially those bent toward evil.

 

It seems a fairly easy and straightforward plan to me.

[Jack Shaftoe]

There is not even need for a full scale attack. The Forsaken and the BA could have just poisoned the rest of the Aes Sedai. Put Darkfriends to work in the kitchens and voila! Or killed them in their sleep, one by one. Or sent a single gholam to slaughter them all. At least they could have stolen the angreal cache, since we see in TGS how ridiculously easy it is to do it. Of course, we are talking about the Forsaken who can't even get rid of bloody Perrin, so no wonder such projects are way beyond their capabilities. Compulsion and the Mask of Mirrors are hugely powerful tools. Too powerful, IMO, and their existence basically forced Jordan to turn the Forsaken into total morons, since otherwise they could have killed whoever they wanted whenever they wanted.

 

Of course, smoking the White Tower does nothing to stop the Dragon Reborn from gathering everyone together and as noted above, helps him, making it impossible to discount his claims.

 

People discounted Rand's claims even after they saw him fighting in the air with Ishamael. And after taking over Tear. Tar Valon being destroyed doesn't mean he is the Dragon for sure.

[MrFantasy]

It doesn't have to be a massive straight out assault. Think if back in book 2 or 3 before any of the goodies discovered Traveling, the Forsaken just slipping into the White Tower every few nights and balefiring a few dozen Aes Sedai and then slipping back to their lair before anyone figured out what was going on. It would've plunged the Tower into chaos. They also could've done the same thing with all the Word Leaders, just take 'em out and then keep killing whoever steps up to rule in their place. Sooner or later the whole world would've been a pitiful, chaotic mess.

 

The Forsaken are lame. Yes they may be crippled by greed and selfish desires, but if I were Nae'Blis, I would've made sure they did as I told them, and I would've pwned the forces of Light.

 

Another good plan would've been to just kidnap a bunch of Aes Sedai at separate times and put them under a light Compulsion done with Saidin or even the True Power so that no one noticed, and then render them useless, or maybe even useFUL to the Shadow once they launched an attack.

[Elan Tedronai]

people are just making excuses for forsaken. all it takes is one gholam in the white tower. pretty elementary my dear watson as holmes would say. then again common sense is not the forsaken's strong point

[Alternate34]

Gholam kills a few Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai discover it is the gholam. They drop a box on him and weave a rock shell around him. Gholam is trapped.

 

As to the razing the island thing, 100 channelers leaving at the same time would not be at all suspicious. Also, in comparison to Falme, it is harder to deny the absence of a city as compared to a spectral image that disappeared afterwards

 

As to the surreptitious stealing and murdering of Aes Sedai is more plausible, but still will eventually fail considering you can't just move darkfriends around willy nilly. The Amyrlin Seat would see a giant move of staff to the kitchens as a little suspicious. And you would need all of the kitchen staff to be in on it. Chefs taste their food. They have a bite and then die. Kind of tips off the sisters.

 

I have trouble seeing how all of these plans are any better than what actually happened. The Aes Sedai did not help Rand at all during their division and actively hirt him. They turned against one another. They lost several important artifacts anyway. Several of them did die. They have sent many others to be forcibly turned in the Black Tower. The Seanchan have captured several more. The Seanchan are planning another attack to wreck the White Tower.

 

The gholam would do nothing more and would basically inform all of the sisters that they are actively hunted by the Shadow. Nothing like that to unify the tower. The murders would be a little less likely to trigger suspicion, thought he Amyrlin would likely know about it considering the moving of staff. Razing the Tower would be less likely to succeed than you think. It would also alert the rest of the Aes Sedai (including the most powerful, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Elayne, Egwene) to action. It wouldn't do anything to guarantee victory by the Shadow.

[Elan Tedronai]

Gholam kills a few Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai discover it is the gholam. They drop a box on him and weave a rock shell around him. Gholam is trapped.

 

 

 

LMAO

[Jack Shaftoe]

As to the surreptitious stealing and murdering of Aes Sedai is more plausible, but still will eventually fail considering you can't just move darkfriends around willy nilly. The Amyrlin Seat would see a giant move of staff to the kitchens as a little suspicious.

 

Giant move? Compulsion and/or employing a few Darkfriend cooks should be enough.

 

They have sent many others to be forcibly turned in the Black Tower.

 

Sure, but if the bad guys had half a clue they could easily turned all Aes Sedai into Dreadlords. Or should I say Dreadladies? :) Kidnap, use 13/13, turn, rinse, repeat. Sounds simple enough even for the likes of Liandrin and Galina to achieve...

[Tom Sawyer]

 

As to the razing the island thing, 100 channelers leaving at the same time would not be at all suspicious.

 

That's a good point. It would be easily solved, however, by instead of "go across the river", the command is "go to this person's room" and they congregate in various BA's rooms for their respective ajahs. Ten people in twenty different rooms could be Travelled out of the city in a manner of minutes. Some other Aes Sedai might find it mildly suspicious to see them congregating and wonder what's going on, but by the time they got around to investigating their suspicions, they'd already be long dead.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I sympathize, but with an unreasonable attitude and implausible orders, you'd run out of Forsaken pretty fast, leaving you even worse off than the Forsaken actually are by this point in the story.

[didymos]

people are just making excuses for forsaken. all it takes is one gholam in the white tower. pretty elementary my dear watson as holmes would say. then again common sense is not the forsaken's strong point

 

So why couldn't six destroy the AoL Aes Sedai? Surely, six whole gholam were sufficient, no?

[WhiskyJack]

I am pretty sure Rand's death gate will be the end of Gholam. I guess in AOL, Ghloam were not much of a threat.

[WhiskyJack]

I have to say, from a knowledgeable background perspective I am extremely disappointed in the MEDIOCRE job the Forsaken have done since being released from their prison. If you think of the tremendous advantage that they had in the beginning, when they were all freed and no one even knew they were free, it is truly shocking to see how little they have accomplished in their time.

 

IF I WERE NAE'BLIS, things would be different. You wouldn't've just be given a free pass to do as you wish, you'd get very specific, strict orders, and it'd be made clear that if you disobeyed or failed to complete the task in any way, you'd immediately be executed and that was that.

 

I would've ordered a massive assault on the White Tower to kill as many of their leaders and powerful channelers as possible. It is likely that one or several of the Forsaken may have died in such a pursuit, but you can't tell me that they wouldn't have taken out a LARGE amount of Aes Sedai if they were careful how they went about things.

 

Also, I would've ordered the Forsaken to either take over or kill every single World Leader and anyone who stepped up to the place of the assassinated World leader. That would have plunged much of the world into utter chaos, thereby ensuring that the inevitable takeover of the Shadow was smooth and efficient, with hardly any resistance.

 

And last but not least, how, the name of Holy Hell, could they really have failed to kill Rand if that was the will of the Great Lord?! In the beginning of the series he was a simple country rube, not knowing up from down on a sword! If Fades and Trollocs could've located him, then you bet your ass Forsaken could've located him and they could've simply killed him without a fight, just a simple weave of fire to consume him.

 

Simply pathetic. F-- Moridin!! I don't care what plots you have stewing I could've done a far better job were I in your place!

 

 

the forsaken are a bunch of morons. all they needed was to send a gholam to the white tower. send another to shador lagoth during the cleansing of saidin.

what we have here is bunch of useless tools. i mean look at sammael's death. moridin helped rand and 2 books later he orders forsaken to take him or kill him if he attempts to cleanse saidin.

 

moridin is a fool just like his boss.

 

You keep repeating this for some reason. Forsaken didn't know if Rand was going to Shadar Logoth or when. But let not logic be our friend in this. Bash away.

[billegoat]

as somebody said previously in this thread, the forsaken are a literary device serving the function of disposable villains who seem destined to fail no matter how or what they try to accomplish due to the will of the pattern. however i don't think it's accurate to say that they are a bunch of pushovers though, since many of them had rand dead to rights throughout the series. examples:

 

aginor backed the young sheepherder to the edge of a cliff and was about to destroy him when rand unconsciously pulled TEOTW's source away from him, causing ag to panic and overdraw himself in response. then, his second go around he had rand lined up for a blast of balefire but was killed by elza who had no idea he was a chosen.

 

be'lal was prepared to waste rand the moment he drew callandor but moiraine (who he had accounted for and even set up a trap in her room) intervened and pulled balefire out of her arse, which caught the forsaken and the entire reading community by surprise. did you know she could weave BF? well neither did the enemy and that's hardly something to chalk up to lack of preparation.

 

ish/moridin primarily works towards turning rand to the shadow instead of killing him because he correctly understands that killing the dragon is only a temporary victory, and to achieve the shadow's ultimate goal of oblivion the creator's champion must be turned. if ish wanted rand dead he never would have got out of emond's field.

 

even feeble asmo was about to defeat rand when they fought over the access key, but the fat man angreal rand carried at the time gave him just enough edge to win.

 

without moiraine's foreknowledge of lanfear's attack at the cairhien docks, rand, avi, and egwene would have been slaughtered.

 

rahvin was moments away from polymorphing rand into some kind of four-legged animal during their TAR fight when he got sneak attacked and distracted by nynaeve.

 

sammael had him hanging on for dear life in shadar logoth when moridin spoiled his victory.

 

semi had him set up perfectly when posing as tuon, only cadsuane's hair net (whose purpose was unknown to all, again including the readers) broke up her disguise. then she had him seconds away from killing his lover when rand surpised the readers again with using the TP to waste her.

 

mesaana had rand in a box for god's sake and also played the white tower like a fiddle.

 

 

as readers we are strongly conditioned to believe that any plans laid by the forsaken will fail after all of these events. but looking at these situations from the perspective of a character in the world, for example when loial puts all this stuff down in his chronicles, it appears that it was a miracle that the light triumphed against impossible odds time and time again. but for us who are looking from the outside, the bad guys look like bumbling idiots even when they are just as surpised by unforseen turning of events as we are.

[smileyman]

I think this amusing site is rather appropriate for this topic. I remember reading some of these things when they first came out.

 

If I Were an Evil Overlord

 

Some items from the list, which mostly deals with science fiction overlords but bewails the common trend of ineffectual villains.

 

1.) My Legions of Terror will have helmets with clear plexiglass visors, not face-concealing ones.

2.) My ventilation ducts will be too small to crawl through.

3.) My noble half-brother whose throne I usurped will be killed, not kept anonymously imprisoned in a forgotten cell of my dungeon.

4.) Shooting is not too good for my enemies.

5.) The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

6.) I will not gloat over my enemies' predicament before killing them.

7.) When I've captured my adversary and he says, "Look, before you kill me, will you at least tell me what this is all about?" I'll say, "No." and shoot him. No, on second thought I'll shoot him then say "No."

[Terhan]

as somebody said previously in this thread, the forsaken are a literary device serving the function of disposable villains who seem destined to fail no matter how or what they try to accomplish due to the will of the pattern. however i don't think it's accurate to say that they are a bunch of pushovers though, since many of them had rand dead to rights throughout the series. examples:

 

aginor backed the young sheepherder to the edge of a cliff and was about to destroy him when rand unconsciously pulled TEOTW's source away from him, causing ag to panic and overdraw himself in response. then, his second go around he had rand lined up for a blast of balefire but was killed by elza who had no idea he was a chosen.

 

be'lal was prepared to waste rand the moment he drew callandor but moiraine (who he had accounted for and even set up a trap in her room) intervened and pulled balefire out of her arse, which caught the forsaken and the entire reading community by surprise. did you know she could weave BF? well neither did the enemy and that's hardly something to chalk up to lack of preparation.

 

ish/moridin primarily works towards turning rand to the shadow instead of killing him because he correctly understands that killing the dragon is only a temporary victory, and to achieve the shadow's ultimate goal of oblivion the creator's champion must be turned. if ish wanted rand dead he never would have got out of emond's field.

 

even feeble asmo was about to defeat rand when they fought over the access key, but the fat man angreal rand carried at the time gave him just enough edge to win.

 

without moiraine's foreknowledge of lanfear's attack at the cairhien docks, rand, avi, and egwene would have been slaughtered.

 

rahvin was moments away from polymorphing rand into some kind of four-legged animal during their TAR fight when he got sneak attacked and distracted by nynaeve.

 

sammael had him hanging on for dear life in shadar logoth when moridin spoiled his victory.

 

semi had him set up perfectly when posing as tuon, only cadsuane's hair net (whose purpose was unknown to all, again including the readers) broke up her disguise. then she had him seconds away from killing his lover when rand surpised the readers again with using the TP to waste her.

 

mesaana had rand in a box for god's sake and also played the white tower like a fiddle.

 

 

as readers we are strongly conditioned to believe that any plans laid by the forsaken will fail after all of these events. but looking at these situations from the perspective of a character in the world, for example when loial puts all this stuff down in his chronicles, it appears that it was a miracle that the light triumphed against impossible odds time and time again. but for us who are looking from the outside, the bad guys look like bumbling idiots even when they are just as surpised by unforseen turning of events as we are.

 

This is a good take on the issue. I agree that the community tends to give the Forsaken a rough way to go when judging their worthiness. There are some things I didn't like, but they aren't nearly as incompetent as most seem to think. These people are dropped into a world with which they are completely unfamiliar. They have virtually no one to work with, the vast majority of the population is against them, and the Pattern itself works to aid their enemies.

 

I've found some of them to be rather interesting. I really liked how Asmodean was written, up until RJ killed him off. It would have been sweet if he turned to the light instead. Ishamael has always been interesting in his way, and Moridin is no different. I was disappointed that Demandred didn't make a showing in ToM, but I am hoping that he will be there in a big way in AMoL. Despite his lack of screen-time, I think he is my favorite of the Chosen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think these two entries from the Evil Overlord List sum it up rather well -

 

If I absolutely must ride into battle, I will certainly not ride at the forefront of my Legions of Terror, nor will I seek out my opposite number among his army.

I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve.

 

If the Forsaken had just stuck to those two points ...

 

Heck, if the Good Guys had just stuck to those two points.

[MrFantasy]

Ha that list is hilarious

[Sabio]

I think its more instead of keeping it simple the Forsaken have watched too many James Bond movies and come up with too many complex plans. The Tear plan, the plan to kill Perrin, the whole egwene in WT (Mesana could of killed her easy at any time), with Egwene dead, a key to rand would be gone and the rebels would of been screwed once Asan'gar had to flee. Just seems alot of the plans are needlessly complex. And they rely too much on others, who end up screwing up their plans. The orginal 13 BA who feld the tower proved really disapponinting in most their tasks, the army sent after Mat, army sent after Perin, etc....