Elayne's Arc

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Not really a great argument, that.

 

Securing Russia's supply of nuclear weapons, over which it has somewhat tenuous control, is more important than public sanitation in Belize.

 

But the President of Belize should address himself to the sanitation issue, not Russia's nukes.

 

There were others who could have gone after the Bowl in Elayne's place. She went because she wanted adventure.

 

I actually find Elayne's adventurous spirit one of her relatively few appealing qualities. But let's not pretend she is always making sober-minded judgments about the most rational course of action. She isn't, and would be less interesting if she did.

 

Well, only she and Nynaeve knew where the building was, and were the only two who could actually recognize it. She had to go.

[Durinax]

Not really a great argument, that.

 

Securing Russia's supply of nuclear weapons, over which it has somewhat tenuous control, is more important than public sanitation in Belize.

 

But the President of Belize should address himself to the sanitation issue, not Russia's nukes.

 

There were others who could have gone after the Bowl in Elayne's place. She went because she wanted adventure.

 

I actually find Elayne's adventurous spirit one of her relatively few appealing qualities. But let's not pretend she is always making sober-minded judgments about the most rational course of action. She isn't, and would be less interesting if she did.

 

Well, only she and Nynaeve knew where the building was, and were the only two who could actually recognize it. She had to go.

plus i think this is when she learned somewhat that you cant treat a person as whom you want them to be, but rather must treat them as they are. althoguh honestly I just get the feeling that this occured, afterall she totally changed her tune about mat

[blazetheearth]

And she knew that securing the bowl was more important than securing Andor.

 

I am sorry, but I will have to ask for a quote here. Exactly what prophecy or foretelling did she have access to have that she "knew" that. I can't find any in the book from her PoV, only her thinking how my she wanted to help Rand, and she, as she tells everyone, "thinks" that the Bowl can put the weather right. She doesn't become more certain of it until her and Nyn are trying to convince Eggy that they should go. Thinking is not knowing, and by since we don't have her PoV for when she starts telling everybody that she (and Nyn) have to go, and that's when she becomes certain that the Bowl must put the weather right. By the time they leave, she has firmly convinced herself that it can only be her.

 

Yes, 2 people who know what the building look like would be better for searching than one. But by the same sense EB is supposed to be a very dangerous town, so sending both of the people that can I.D. the building to the city at the same time seems a lot like 'all the eggs in one basket'.

Like I said though, please show me the quote which indicates that Elayne KNOWS that Nyn and the other AS couldn't handle it on their own.

 

What proof or indication does SHE have (before leaving Salidar) that "finding the Bowl" will FAIL WITHOUT HER, because I cannot find any evidence of it.

 

And I don't mean this as sarcasm, because I would really like to know where that idea comes from.

[Darth Krewl]

She didn't want to kill Perrin. She acknowledged it might be a simple solution, but then thought that of course she wasn't going to do it. And he is a dangerous rebel threat.

 

Interesting choice of words to try and sustain your argument, Mr. Ares. Even when your point lacks substance and weight.

 

So, perhaps it was I who made a poor choice of words when I posted that Elayne wanted Perrin killed, even though for all intents and purposes, when the thought crossed her mind as a simple solution, that means she wanted or wished for it, however fleetingly.

 

As for him being a dangerous rebel threat, that's got to be your personal take on him and I strongly disagree. Perrin went to the aid of his people (like any sensible person would, IMO). He rescued the Two Rivers from two serious dangers. Then he went on a mission for the Dragon Reborn to find the Prophet Masema, which he did. Then, he went on a mission to rescue his kidnapped wife (again, something any sensible person would do) and, again, he succeeded.

 

So, tell me, how can any of his actions be considered as open rebellion against Andor?

 

By your logic, Perrin should be considered an enemy and traitor of all the peoples of the Randland, based on the mere fact that he sided with Seanchan and struck an alliance with them to save Faile and I didn't see anyone pointing fingers at him at the Fields of Merrilor because of that not so small detail.

 

Only Elayne (and you, apparently) sees him as a "dangerous rebel". Though even Elayne doesn't see him as a threat to her rule but only as a potential threat to declare for the independence of the Two Rivers. And that is certainly no excuse to even acknowledging that killing Perrin would be a simple solution. Not to mention that this one would never succeed in killing a Ta'veren, of course heh heh

 

Once again, completely untrue. She was warned of an attack, so increased border defences, a logical move. The Waygate was, per Verin's letter, "guarded, barricaded, and thought secure." Given that, she did take reasonable steps.

 

"Completely untrue"? Well, this was certainly neither as interesting nor the right choice of words heh heh

 

Completely untrue, from your POV, you must have meant. Because the fact remains that, despite warning that her realm was in danger, Elayne did leave her post to claim the Sun Throne. Now, keep in mind that you're talking to no youngster here, my friend. I have read enough (and not only fantasy) to know that no ruler and commander in chief would leave their post when under threat. And that is completely true.

 

As for Verin's letter, well, Elayne did not read that letter, now did she? We, the readers know the contents of that letter but not her. So w/e the letter might have said doesn't qualify concerning Elayne at all.

 

My only real problem w/ Elayne as a monarch and specifically Queen of Andor, is that despite her efforts since taking the throne she took waaaaay too long to go to Camelyn to take the throne. Mat and the Band Travel to Salidar to tell her that her country (the realm she is Daughter-Heir for) is monarch-less and that she is needed in Camelyn.

 

What was does she do?

 

Runs to Ebou Dar w/ Nyn to look for the Bowl. Granted we (as readers) know how important it will be, but she had no real clue what would be involved in using it or whether it even could be used when she went after it.

The perpetual summer was something that could have caused massive casualties the longer it went on. Including killing off large numbers of Andorans. So securing the Bowl was important for Andor and the whole world, therefore Elayne cannot be considered negligent in her duties for making sure it is secured. As for why she had to do it herself, only two people went on the need walk in T'a'r - her and Nynaeve. If she didn't go, Nynaeve has to do it all alone. Two people searching improves their chances, therefore I would say she was wholly justified. I do not see how taking steps to prevent the apocalypse can be considered dereliction of duty unless you happen to be one of the four horsemen.

 

Say all you want about that hectic runaround across Ebou Dar to find this Bowl of Winds, but the truth remains that there were plenty of Aes Sedai in the vicinity who could have assisted Nynaeve and the Athan Miere to find the device, link and use it. In contrast, there is only one Daughter-heir and queen of Andor in waiting.

 

Should something have happened to her during the civil war for the throne, it would be expected. But, how much of a blow would it have been to Andoran stability and morale if their queen in waiting had gotten herself killed by playing at being Aes Sedai and running wild, completely neglecting her duties to her realm and people?

 

If Mat hadn't been there, Elayne would've had her throat slit and her blood drank by the Gholam and Andor would be in a deeper hole than it already is.

 

Ishadar's logic is flawless. Yours is not. He considers Elayne irresponsible and negligent. I agree. That makes two of us and one of you. So, again, seems to me like the majority (if not the general consensus) has proven you wrong once again.

[Kaznen]

I think Perrin should have been regarded as a hero of Andor.

 

The Whitecloaks illegally occupied TR (part of Andor) and threatened Andoran subjects, even imprisoning a couple and tried to imprison two more. They also cut off communication with the outside. If Morgase knew she would have sent soldiers to get the WCs out (if she wasn't under Rhavin's control but it was unknown at the time she was so we can't fault her, she would have if she could/knew)

 

On top of that Trollocs invaded TR (Andor) and the WC did almost nothing to help. One village was destroyed by trollocs, the WC left another to rot focusing on just Watch Hill and Emond's Field. Not counting all the families the trollocs killed.

 

The AS were telling stories of Mantherien that lead to the Watch Hill people raising the old banner. Perrin has always been opposed to the Red Eagle, it was AS doing and Elayne would have changed her opinion if she knew AS were behind it.

 

Perrin lead the cut off Andorans to drive the trollocs out of Andor and end the WC occupation.

 

The people of TR declared him their lord, against his objections.

 

He then led his people into the MoM to kill any trollocs that escaped and found refuges from the other side of the range. Then he gave them a new home and a new life. Something the Queen would have done if there was one still on the throne.

 

He did what the Queen would have done because one was not available for justifiable reasons. And if Elayne ever did some serious inquires she would have learned, quite easily what had happened. Instead she relied on third hand rumor when she could have asked Egwene to closely question the TR novices about what happened instead she relied on what Egwene learned from basically unfocused gossip that she only half listened to. And if she sent a small envoy with Dylin, Birigget, Guybon, or the young Mantear lord with a small number of gaurds and some kin for a gateway to politly asked what happened, instead of a force demanding to be let in, and they talked to Tam al'Thor, Bran al'Vere, Abel Cauthorn, and/or Marin al'Vere, the people who would have said what happened straight, she would have known all she needed to about Perrin's exploits in TR.

 

She could have also benefited from Davram Bashere's speech about noble houses, many nobles could.

 

But instead she did a half-assed investigation and accused Perrin (wrongfully) of treason.

[Durinax]

ok first of all. in Ebou dar Nynaeve didnt have the help of AS, in fact they hindered her until Elayne (I think) loosed her anger and put the other AS in their places.

 

Secondly, I may be wrong on this one, but didnt rand talking to dylen help convince her that Elayne wouldnt be a puppet but rather her own sovereign. Where if She showed up right away with mat (assumed dragonsworn) dylen would have put in her claim and she would have lost it, and the weather would remain screwed.

 

Now as for the leaving her post, she knew that she could take it quickly and decisively. I cannot recall if she left brigitte there to look after mannners in case of an attack. And remember that she isnt queen and commander in chief, brigitte is commander in chief, and although answerable to the queen brigitte is more than strong enough to make important decisions.

 

and the Perrin beign a rebel bit.

 

lets look at what Elayne knew

1) foreign flags where raised

2) some sort of fighting occured

3) whitecloaks where involved (known rabblerousers)

4) he is moving with a substancial army

5) her envoys where turned back

6) she does not know what kind of man perrin is period

 

pretty good case for him being a rebel eh

[Kaznen]

 

and the Perrin beign a rebel bit.

 

lets look at what Elayne knew

1) foreign flags where raised

2) some sort of fighting occured

3) whitecloaks where involved (known rabblerousers)

4) he is moving with a substancial army

5) her envoys where turned back

6) she does not know what kind of man perrin is period

 

pretty good case for him being a rebel eh

That's what I talking about. She just had general gossip from the rumor mill to go on. She didn't make any serious inqueries on her own initiative. she just went by hearsay.

 

If she sent envoys who attitude wasn't "let us in now, by order of the Queen!" And instead had them say "The Queen understands there was some trouble and is concerned, what exactly happened?" She would have gotten a different response.

 

Instead the way she presented herself the TR folk thought, "well now that the TR is worth something (with all their mining operations and manufacturing) some queen who never cared about us now wants her "share" of our success. Well screw her! We didn't need her when we were in trouble, we don't need her now."

 

Her biggest failing is she doesn't try to look at things through another's eyes. If she did give an honest effort she would have learned the truth.

[Darth Krewl]

ok first of all. in Ebou dar Nynaeve didnt have the help of AS, in fact they hindered her until Elayne (I think) loosed her anger and put the other AS in their places.

 

Secondly, I may be wrong on this one, but didnt rand talking to dylen help convince her that Elayne wouldnt be a puppet but rather her own sovereign. Where if She showed up right away with mat (assumed dragonsworn) dylen would have put in her claim and she would have lost it, and the weather would remain screwed.

 

Now as for the leaving her post, she knew that she could take it quickly and decisively. I cannot recall if she left brigitte there to look after mannners in case of an attack. And remember that she isnt queen and commander in chief, brigitte is commander in chief, and although answerable to the queen brigitte is more than strong enough to make important decisions.

 

and the Perrin beign a rebel bit.

 

lets look at what Elayne knew

1) foreign flags where raised

2) some sort of fighting occured

3) whitecloaks where involved (known rabblerousers)

4) he is moving with a substancial army

5) her envoys where turned back

6) she does not know what kind of man perrin is period

 

pretty good case for him being a rebel eh

 

IDK who is Dylen. Are you talking about Queen Tylin or are you talking about Lady Dyelin (Elayne's advisor)? It would help if you could clarify, so that I can reply to the first half of your post, because these are 2 very different characters in 2 very different passages in the story.

 

As for the second part of your post...

 

Rulers may not lead their armies when attacking foreign soil, but they do stay in place when their soil is under threat, because executive decisions fall squarely on their shoulders. So, as Théoden would say in LotR, last time I checked Elayne Trakand was queen of Andor and not Birgitte the Warder/Captain-General.

 

Elayne may trust her top military adviser implicitly, but since I have always been discussing this issue from the POV of a common Andoran, I just don't think "Average Joe" from Caemlyn will like it one bit when he sees his city under attack and his queen nowhere to be found. Much less, when he finds out that executive command decisions have fallen instead on the shoulders of someone who is not even Andoran, but a person that Elayne brought back with her from her adventures. Why, I may even suspect foul play and treason from this Birgitte look-alike ('cause to the general public, that's what she's supposed to be. Unlike us, the readers, they don't know the first thing about her true origins).

 

Alas, Elayne is not ruling over the readers. She's ruling over Andor, nobles and commoners alike. Sorry but, that's just the way it is. And this is why, in times of war, the ruler of a nation is, for all intents and purposes, the commander in chief of all armies, in charge of all executive decisions. Not their military advisers, be them call captain-generals, ministers/secretaries of defense or what-have-you. This is no idea of mine. This is something that is universal knowledge or at least so I would've thought. Seems like that's not the case.

 

And finally, Perrin Aybara...

 

lets look at what Elayne knew

1) foreign flags where raised

Reply: he did. And then, he took them outside Andoran territory. Plus he never declared formally for independence from Andor.

 

2) some sort of fighting occured

Reply: If Elayne knows this, then why doesn't she have the proper inquiries made, just like any smart person would demand?

 

3) whitecloaks where involved (known rabblerousers)

Reply: the intervention of Whitecloaks does not point at rebellion per se. All it does is point at Whitecloak activity in the south of Andor, in a region left unprotected and ignored by the Throne for ages. You have two choices here, either the Children of the Light are rousing Two Rivers folk against Andor or they are threatening the people of the region (which is exactly what was happening). Rulers cannot make assumptions. Rulers have to dig into the bottom of things to find out the truth. Otherwise, they'd be stupid idiots and their rule would be doomed to failure sooner rather than later. Especially in a world filled with Daes Dae'mar and Darkfriends working to hinder your rule.

 

4) he is moving with a substancial army

Reply: all points from (1) apply here, as well. Not to mention that Perrin's army never even made a move that could be considered against Andor. They were moving away, if anything.

 

5) her envoys where turned back

Reply: this constitutes a slight to the throne and an offense at that, yes. But the envoys were not harmed in any way or sent back with a message of open defiance that could signify rebellion rising against the Throne. I don't remember when this happened exactly, but if it happened before Elayne took the throne, then it's not even a slight to the Lion Throne, so it can't be seen as open defiance or rebellion. What I do remember, however, is that by the moment Elayne was officially recognized, Perrin went to parlay with her as soon as he could.

6) she does not know what kind of man perrin is period

Reply: lol...in addition to a very immature way to put this, you mean to say that, because Elayne didn't know Perrin at all, she is to automatically assume he is a rebel and a threat to her rule? Again, what I said about rulers not assuming things in point (3) applies here as well.

 

But, all in all, I thank you. Because all of your arguments bolster my point tenfold: Elayne Trakand is a terrible ruler.

[Creslin321]

Here's what annoyed me the most about Elayne...

 

From Elayne's whole impersonating a Forsaken scene, she gained credible intelligence that a MAJOR attack on Andor was coming soon. So what does she do with this intelligence? NOTHING!

 

In fact, she decides to go off to Cairhien to become queen there, so she's not even in Andor to guard it in what could be its greatest time of need. I understand the necessity of her getting crowned in Cairhien, but he should have at least started a major investigation into how Andor could be attacked. I felt her lack of action on the intel that Andor will soon be attacked was a terrible decision!

[f3llyn]

Here's what annoyed me the most about Elayne...

 

From Elayne's whole impersonating a Forsaken scene, she gained credible intelligence that a MAJOR attack on Andor was coming soon. So what does she do with this intelligence? NOTHING!

 

In fact, she decides to go off to Cairhien to become queen there, so she's not even in Andor to guard it in what could be its greatest time of need. I understand the necessity of her getting crowned in Cairhien, but he should have at least started a major investigation into how Andor could be attacked. I felt her lack of action on the intel that Andor will soon be attacked was a terrible decision!

She increases guards at the borders and other places throughout Andor. What else should she have done?

[Creslin321]

Here's what annoyed me the most about Elayne...

 

From Elayne's whole impersonating a Forsaken scene, she gained credible intelligence that a MAJOR attack on Andor was coming soon. So what does she do with this intelligence? NOTHING!

 

In fact, she decides to go off to Cairhien to become queen there, so she's not even in Andor to guard it in what could be its greatest time of need. I understand the necessity of her getting crowned in Cairhien, but he should have at least started a major investigation into how Andor could be attacked. I felt her lack of action on the intel that Andor will soon be attacked was a terrible decision!

She increases guards at the borders and other places throughout Andor. What else should she have done?

 

You're right, she did do something. However, I still think that Elayne leaving Andor in such a dangerous time was a horrible decision. I also think that beefing up the border guards would be completely ineffective for a few reasons:

 

1. Increased guards at the borders will only make a difference if the attack came from outside Andor. If there was a massive army of shadowspawn marching all the way from the blight to Andor's border I really think Elayne would have some intelligence on that. I don't think they could just sneak over leagues of land. Therefore, it seems likely that the shadowspawn must have a way of getting to Andor in an indirect fashion.

 

2. The black sister made the attack sound like it was going to be very devastating and very large. By increasing guards on your border you are effectively splitting up your forces more (after all, you have to cover the whole border). So even if the attack came from outside of Andor, there is no way that the guards stationed at one border are going to defeat a huge army of shadowspawn. If anything, I would think it would be more prudent to pool your forces to prevent the shadowspawn from "dividing and conquering" your army.

 

Finally it really isn't unreasonable for Elayne to send someone to just check on the way gate. I *think* (not certain) that she knows its there. If I knew a huge attack was coming, I would definitely just want to check that a massive hole in my defenses is definitely secure.

[Durinax]

I meant Dyelin, I couldnt remember how to spell it.

 

1) foreign flags where raised

Reply: he did. And then, he took them outside Andoran territory. Plus he never declared formally for independence from Andor

but first he paraded them threw to Caemlyn where rand was at the time. To the casual observer Rand sent him away. Which says nothing for or against his declaring independance or being a threat other than he moved an army to caemlyn.

 

2) some sort of fighting occured

Reply: If Elayne knows this, then why doesn't she have the proper inquiries made, just like any smart person would demand?

we dont know if inquiries where made. I think she knows that inquiries take time to do, so as far as we know she sent someone there with orders to find out whats up. And also she has been very busy with other stuff

 

3) whitecloaks where involved (known rabblerousers)

Reply: the intervention of Whitecloaks does not point at rebellion per se. All it does is point at Whitecloak activity in the south of Andor, in a region left unprotected and ignored by the Throne for ages. You have two choices here, either the Children of the Light are rousing Two Rivers folk against Andor or they are threatening the people of the region (which is exactly what was happening). Rulers cannot make assumptions. Rulers have to dig into the bottom of things to find out the truth. Otherwise, they'd be stupid idiots and their rule would be doomed to failure sooner rather than later. Especially in a world filled with Daes Dae'mar and Darkfriends working to hinder your rule.

Both of those choices include moving large amounts of troops to the area, and by the time troops in enough numbers arrived the action would have been over and there would have likely been a civil war (not to mention wasnt Gaebril in charge during this time)

 

4) he is moving with a substancial army

Reply: all points from (1) apply here, as well. Not to mention that Perrin's army never even made a move that could be considered against Andor. They were moving away, if anything.

like i said before he moved towards caemlyn to meet up with rand, which in itself is an act of rebellion and attack is autom

 

5) her envoys where turned back

Reply: this constitutes a slight to the throne and an offense at that, yes. But the envoys were not harmed in any way or sent back with a message of open defiance that could signify rebellion rising against the Throne. I don't remember when this happened exactly, but if it happened before Elayne took the throne, then it's not even a slight to the Lion Throne, so it can't be seen as open defiance or rebellion. What I do remember, however, is that by the moment Elayne was officially recognized, Perrin went to parlay with her as soon as he could.

actually to me this contends open revolt since anyone under the queen acknowledges her rule would be willing to listen to an envoy of the queen since in effect they carry the queens authority with them, and to deny them is to deny the queens authority

6) she does not know what kind of man perrin is period

Reply: lol...in addition to a very immature way to put this, you mean to say that, because Elayne didn't know Perrin at all, she is to automatically assume he is a rebel and a threat to her rule? Again, what I said about rulers not assuming things in point (3) applies here as well.

well first of all assuming something isnt bad in itself. Almost every ruler in history have made assumptions, and every military leader in history has made assumptions. Assuming things isnt bad, especially assuming the worst because then you can have plans in place to counter anything. Assuming perrin is a greedy and arrogent leader is good for her, it allows her to judge him through a conversation that will not let her uncertainty show and also be able to make plans that work out well like her treatise with Perrin which was very good for everyone involved.

 

That's what I talking about. She just had general gossip from the rumor mill to go on. She didn't make any serious inqueries on her own initiative. she just went by hearsay.

 

If she sent envoys who attitude wasn't "let us in now, by order of the Queen!" And instead had them say "The Queen understands there was some trouble and is concerned, what exactly happened?" She would have gotten a different response.

 

Instead the way she presented herself the TR folk thought, "well now that the TR is worth something (with all their mining operations and manufacturing) some queen who never cared about us now wants her "share" of our success. Well screw her! We didn't need her when we were in trouble, we don't need her now."

 

Her biggest failing is she doesn't try to look at things through another's eyes. If she did give an honest effort she would have learned the truth.

this whole post is completely assumption, we have no idea how the envoy would have presented themselves. We have no idea what their attitude was, and we have no idea how the TR folk thought the monarchy presented themself. Plus like I said we dont know if there is an investigation going on, I gotta reread to see if she asked norry to find out what was truly happening there

[f3llyn]

We've got no reason to think she knows it even exists. Though that seems odd because you would think Rand or Egwene or Nynaeve would tell her about their adventures through the waygates. And even if she is aware of it.. As Verin's letter says, it's being guarded and thought to be safe so there's no reason they would suspect an attack would appear right in the middle of Caemlyn.

 

And with gateways they could have reinforcements to any location on the borders easily enough so that doesn't matter to much. While yes it does still take a bit of time to move people through gateways en mass it's still fairly fast. And if they linked they can create very large gateways as we saw Egwene's Aes Sedai do for their army.

[David Selig]

As for him being a dangerous rebel threat, that's got to be your personal take on him and I strongly disagree. Perrin went to the aid of his people (like any sensible person would, IMO). He rescued the Two Rivers from two serious dangers. Then he went on a mission for the Dragon Reborn to find the Prophet Masema, which he did. Then, he went on a mission to rescue his kidnapped wife (again, something any sensible person would do) and, again, he succeeded.

 

So, tell me, how can any of his actions be considered as open rebellion against Andor?

He raised the Manetheren banner for one thing, and Manetheren consisted of most of the current Andoran territory. He also entered a huge army on Andoran territory without asking permission first. Both of which are clear reasons to be considered as committing an open rebellion. Not to mention the sending the envoys back with the message "No Andoran taxes, Tai-shai Manetheren", which is about as baltant declaration of rebellion as possible.

 

As for going to Ebou Dar - looking at the big picture, finding the Bowl and ending the perpetual summer was far more important than coming back to Caemlyn a few weeks earlier (nobody expected the hunt for the Bowl to take longer than that). By that point, the situation in Andor while problematic, was still far from a civil war, even though there's been months since Rand killed Rahvin and took over. On the other hand, several more months of this heatwave and there wouldn't have been many Andorans left to be Queen of.

 

Yes, there was no prophesy or a viewing which required Elayne specifically to go, but:

1)only her and Nynaeve had seen the location, and it was a non descript building in a vast city. Both of them looking together and comparing their memories increases seriously the chance of finding it.

2)the other Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar who got the message to search for the Bowl earlier has had zero success and didn't seem much interested in looking for it.

 

Was it risky? Of course, but it was a necessary risk to take. The Bowl was absolutely crucial for the world:

LoC, Chapter 19

 

“All three had this dream, which makes it especially significant. Rain,” that word still came clumsily too, “coming from a bowl. There are snares and pitfalls around the bowl. If the right hands pick it up, they will find a treasure perhaps as great as the bowl. If the wrong hands, the world is doomed. The key to finding the bowl is to find the one who is no longer.”

 

I really don't get the criticism for going to Cairhien for a few hours to take the throne. The whole Andoran army was left in the country except a few hundred guards and there were numerous Kin women ready to carry a message if there's an invasion or another emergency.

[Darth Krewl]

I meant Dyelin, I couldnt remember how to spell it.

 

Okay, now it's clearer, thanks. But, what does Dyelin have to do with the stuff that was going on in Ebou Dar? She was at Andor (Caemlyn, I suppose) and, her biggest role was as Elayne's adviser during the civil war.

 

At any rate, the whole "Super Bowl" thing would be open to speculation and interpretation, IMO, because with Elayne absent, Nynaeve would've just had to find a way to get those useless hags that Mat had to save from the Seanchan to move their tails and help in this cause.

 

That's why I narrowed it down to the simplest, most undeniable fact: there were plenty of Aes Sedai and Sea Folk in Ebou Dar, to see about the Bowl, while there's only one Daughter-heir for Andor. It is what it is. I used the example of Ethenielle of Manetheren before, precisely to illustrate my point: a queen should know her place at all times, Aes Sedai or not. And Elayne's place is with her people. Can't have the best of both worlds. Doesn't work that way, even in fantasy.

 

As for Perrin, concerning all those points, the truth is that there's nothing to indicate that Elayne investigated that issue as thoroughly as she should. We don't know if she ordered for the pertaining inquiries, but we do know that she never received any reports about the events at the Two Rivers. Otherwise, Elayne would have had different thoughts on Perrin by the time they met.

 

Now, as far as the envoys sent by Elayne, I can't remember if she sent them before or after she won the throne. But if it was before that, then Perrin is not at fault against the throne, because legitimate heir or not, fact is Elayne was still not queen and Rand was still ruler over Andor. And, since Perrin is sworn to Rand, then he did the right thing. And if it was after, then you have a legitimate point, in the sense that it was a direct offense to the Throne. Seems like you misunderstood me before. I hope this makes it clear.

 

As for rulers making assumptions...hmm...let's see...there's tons of examples that I could use from both, fantasy and real life here, to illustrate just how smart, wise rulers do not take anything on speculation but rather, fact. Still, that would make for a very long post.

 

Suffice to say that, I fail to see how rumor, suspicion and hearsay - supported by assumptions - automatically lead Elayne to consider Perrin a "dangerous rebel". A potential threat that should be dealt with accordingly, based on what little real evidence she was able to gather? Certainly. But never a very dangerous threat to her rule.

[Durinax]

I was pointing out that if Elayne would have returned instead of going to ebou dar, it would have had all the appearances of rand giving away the throne, thus it belonging to man.

Dyelin would have then put forward her own claim which would have destroyed Andor.

instead with rand naming dyelin regent (I think I am remembering right) and telling her that he intended to keep the throne open for elayne because it was hers by right not because it was his to give away, things went much more smoothly, especially since dyelin could have basically made herself queen at any time through the succession bit of the book.

[Darth Krewl]

He raised the Manetheren banner for one thing, and Manetheren consisted of most of the current Andoran territory. He also entered a huge army on Andoran territory without asking permission first. Both of which are clear reasons to be considered as committing an open rebellion. Not to mention the sending the envoys back with the message "No Andoran taxes, Tai-shai Manetheren", which is about as baltant declaration of rebellion as possible.

 

You seem to be either misconstruing my words or missing my whole point...again, David. Whatever the case, the thing is that I have never said that Perrin shouldn't be perceived as a rebel by Elayne. All I have said is that Elayne perceives him as such, mostly because she jumped hastily into conclusions, based on assumption, instead of relying on cold, hard and irrefutable facts.

 

The conversation sustained by these two characters in the last book clearly would seem to indicate that both had a point. Perrin wasn't rebelling openly (had he done so, he would've crushed Caemlyn. He has a much larger force under his command than Elayne had at that point) but he was pissed at the way Caemlyn had completely forgotten about the Two Rivers and rightfully so. Elayne, for her part, had every right of blaming Perrin of rebellion, though to call him a "dangerous rebel", when even she doesn't see him as such is frankly, taking things completely out of proportion.

 

 

I really don't get the criticism for going to Cairhien for a few hours to take the throne. The whole Andoran army was left in the country except a few hundred guards and there were numerous Kin women ready to carry a message if there's an invasion or another emergency.

 

For a few hours? Now that one does make me laugh heheh...

 

Even if she had gone to Cairhien to have lunch, take the throne and wave to the crowd, Elayne wasn't going back to Caemlyn from Caihrien, but to the Fields of Merrilor for the all-important showdown between Rand and Egwene.

 

So, it doesn't matter if she was gone to Cairhien for just a few hours or for months. The point is that she left Caemlyn at a time when the realm of Andor was under a very serious threat. Never before in my long years, have I read of or seen a monarch in fantasy (or real life) leaving his/her post under such dire conditions. Fortunately, the pain that her mistake will bring to her will last for more than just a few hours. Serves her right, too. Because, again, history will judge her like this...

 

"Caemlyn was under attack on your watch and you were nowhere to be found, Your Grace. Not only are you going down as the monarch who lost Andor to the Shadow, but you weren't even there to lead the defense." It is what it is.

 

I was pointing out that if Elayne would have returned instead of going to ebou dar, it would have had all the appearances of rand giving away the throne, thus it belonging to man.

Dyelin would have then put forward her own claim which would have destroyed Andor.

instead with rand naming dyelin regent (I think I am remembering right) and telling her that he intended to keep the throne open for elayne because it was hers by right not because it was his to give away, things went much more smoothly, especially since dyelin could have basically made herself queen at any time through the succession bit of the book.

 

Sure, I see your point now. It's been a while since I read the early books and I've never reread them but moved on to other series. Only books I ever reread are Tolkien's. So, thanks for the reminder.

 

At any rate, it'd seem to me that it was Rand's and Dyelin's doing (and not Elayne) that kept the place a little more stable after Rhavin. Well, Elayne was nowhere to be found (as usual lol) and Dyelin has done an amazing job holding down the fort all the time, then. Elayne herself has observed that w/o Dyelin she would've had a much harder time than she did in getting the throne.

 

Matter of fact, I've read some posts saying that she'd be a much better ruler than Elayne. So, I don't think many people feel that Dyelin as queen would've destroyed Andor. Alas, Andor's in pretty bad shape right about now, under Elayne's watch, whether she's to blame or not.

 

Not saying that I agree with the sentiment concerning Dyelin, but I believe the argument may be valid.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Never before in my long years, have I read of or seen a monarch in fantasy (or real life) leaving his/her post under such dire conditions.

 

Really? So you must not have read WoT very carefully as it has events like Rand leaving Tear open to the possibility of Sammael's Illianers invading in TSR, Tuon going on adventure with Mat or the Borderlands monarchs deserting the Blight with most of their armies to go ask Rand a question.

 

You seem to be either misconstruing my words or missing my whole point...again, David. Whatever the case, the thing is that I have never said that Perrin shouldn't be perceived as a rebel by Elayne. All I have said is that Elayne perceives him as such, mostly because she jumped hastily into conclusions, based on assumption, instead of relying on cold, hard and irrefutable facts.

 

Her mother spent a lot of time with Perrin. If Elayne's misinformed (I don't really remember how much she knows about Perrin and his Plot of Doom), I think we should blame Morgase, not her daughter.

[Darth Krewl]

Really? So you must not have read WoT very carefully as it has events like Rand leaving Tear open to the possibility of Sammael's Illianers invading in TSR, Tuon going on adventure with Mat or the Borderlands monarchs deserting the Blight with most of their armies to go ask Rand a question.

 

Well, like I said in my last post, I've only read these books once each and it's been over 2 yrs. now that I read the majority of them. I like this series, but it's far from being my favorite, to be totally honest. So, when I said rulers in fantasy, I meant all of "fantasyland". Whereas you are just using examples from WoT exclusively. And you left out Egwene al'Vere...terrible leader too lol!

 

I do remember, however, that Tuon was not Empress when she was with Mat. The moment she was to be named Empress, she left Mat and has stayed firmly in place at Ebou Dar ever since. She didn't leave at a moment when her rule was seriously threatened and when, like Elayne, she left her homeland to take over some other nation(s) - regardless on the means; the goal is the same - she couldn't have known that the Empress would be killed. So, frankly, the comparison is totally inappropriate.

 

As for Rand leaving Tear open, yeah, he did. Though, in all fairness, the guy was raised to be a simple farmer and sheepherder. He wasn't brought up to be a ruler like Elayne was and it seems to me he learned his lesson well, since Sisnera has been holding the fort quite nicely at Tear up to this point. So, again the comparison is not very accurate.

 

Her mother spent a lot of time with Perrin. If Elayne's misinformed (I don't really remember how much she knows about Perrin and his Plot of Doom), I think we should blame Morgase, not her daughter.

 

Blame Morgase? In what sense? For raising her 2 kids to be such idiots? heh heh...Or, you meant blaming her for putting Andor in such a deep hole in the first place?

 

Because, if it's the former, then I agree 100%. If it's the latter, though, she was compelled by a Forsaken and can't be blamed directly for what she did under that nasty influence.

 

EDIT: Oh yes, the Borderland rulers, that's right! Can't leave them out of the conversation, certainly. They did the same as Elayne, sure, they left their realms and weakened them to invasion in the process. But, let's not confuse the fact that there may be other idiotic rulers in WoT with the fact that Elayne is still an idiot, just like the rest of them hahah! Because two wrongs don't make for one right, as they say.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Blame Morgase? In what sense? For raising her 2 kids to be such idiots? heh heh...Or, you meant blaming her for putting Andor in such a deep hole in the first place?

 

Morgase had the opportunity to talk with Elayne before the latter met with Perrin. If the daughter is dealing with Perrin based on bad info, it's only fair to blame the mother for this as she knows a lot about Perrin and could have just dispelled whatever misconception Elayne might have had about him. Morgase calls Perrin a rebel too.

[Darth Krewl]

Morgase had the opportunity to talk with Elayne before the latter met with Perrin. If the daughter is dealing with Perrin based on bad info, it's only fair to blame the mother for this as she knows a lot about Perrin and could have just dispelled whatever misconception Elayne might have had about him. Morgase calls Perrin a rebel too.

 

Well, that's because Perrin was a rebel lol! Never said otherwise. I said that he wasn't a "dangerous rebel" that was threatening Andor in the way that, oh IDK, the Rebel Alliance threatened Palpatine's rule in Star Wars or the Targaryen's threatened Robert Baratheon's rule in ASoIaF, for instance.

 

Now, those are dangerous rebels because their trying to take over the whole pie. Perrin wasn't threatening Elayne's rule of Andor. He was just pissed 'cause Andor demands allegiance from the Two Rivers, w/o giving anything back for years, and rightly so, IMO.

 

I was talking to Elayne's attitude towards Perrin before she was reunited with her mother. How Elayne was quick to jump into conclusions about a certain Lord Aybara from the Two Rivers and his exploits, based on hearsay, w/o ordering a thorough investigation to find out as much as she could about the guy and the reasons behind his behavior, rebellious or otherwise.

 

As for Morgase's intervention, I actually happen to believe that she saved her daughter a lot of grief, 'cause, had she not told Elayne what she had found out during her time with Perrin and Faile, Elayne would've threatened Perrin, instead of trying to parlay and things would've gotten ugly for all, I'd think.

[Kaznen]

And most of the time Morgase was with Perrin he didn't know who she was. And she didn't go asking just what did happen in TR to turn them into a military force. In her ToM PoVs she still regarded Perrin as a rebel because she didn't know what happened. But she was trying to keep her cover and start a new life. She thought she would never see Elayne again.

 

BTW: The "large" force he brought out of TR to meet Rand in Caemlyn was about 500 long bowmen and some servants. He respected the DR's orders that nobles could only have 15 guards and 20 servants in the city itself. In fact he only brought 3 "armsmen" in the city with him, Gaul, Bain and Chaid. The rest he sent a few miles back to camp, hardly in a position for a siege. Nobles who were openly against Elayne at first had larger forces at their disposal. In fact the soon to be novices from TR was a "larger force" of TR fighters in the city itself, several of them did end up fighting trollocs after all.

[Mystraka]

With regards to Perrin:

 

Aside from everything she could possibly know, the only thing that matters is this:

 

Perrin is Ta'veren, Rand's close personal friend, and paramount for the last battle to be won.

 

This alone is excuse to treat him with respect, and not ASSUME the worst. Her response should have been more along the lines of discovery rather than condemnation.

[Wheel of Thyme]

I dont know if this a major plot hole, or is intentioned. I recall in one of the books, dont remember which it was, where Rand placed a ward around a Waygate that would KILL shadowspawn shortly after they left it. If Rand did NOT place the same around EVERY Waygate, then he was rather foolish. But maybe a way has been found to counteract that ward, if Rand did set one up...and thats why Verin says its not guarded despite what people believe.

 

I however continue to agree with Randsc; Elayne shows no sense in going to Cairhein when Andor is in such danger. And whoever wrote that Elayne was actually WEAKENING her forces by sending them to guard Andors border was correct. Andor's borders are vast, and in one of my posts upthread I make the case that Elayne knows enough about the workings of the Shadow and its plots to figure out that an attack would be at a major location, not in some isolated villiage unless said villiage was on their path from Point A to Point B.

[Durinax]

I dont know if this a major plot hole, or is intentioned. I recall in one of the books, dont remember which it was, where Rand placed a ward around a Waygate that would KILL shadowspawn shortly after they left it. If Rand did NOT place the same around EVERY Waygate, then he was rather foolish. But maybe a way has been found to counteract that ward, if Rand did set one up...and thats why Verin says its not guarded despite what people believe.

 

I however continue to agree with Randsc; Elayne shows no sense in going to Cairhein when Andor is in such danger. And whoever wrote that Elayne was actually WEAKENING her forces by sending them to guard Andors border was correct. Andor's borders are vast, and in one of my posts upthread I make the case that Elayne knows enough about the workings of the Shadow and its plots to figure out that an attack would be at a major location, not in some isolated villiage unless said villiage was on their path from Point A to Point B.

but by strengthening her borders she is increasing the likely hood that a message could be sent off in the case of an attack. because the more people the more likely a message can be sent off, although it does mean sacraficign some troops it is a necessary evil