Elayne's Arc

[bluecole]

okay, just read the "Simple Question. . ." thread, it was A&A there, in replies 153-163.

 

Oh well. . . . . .

 

B.

[Jeangray]

Well in Mats defense, I probably wouldnt tell Elayne that either. Who knows how she would react. She may not hate them as much as Egwene, but she isnt exactly in their camp either.

 

Well, it is way more important for Elayne to know this, not to mention to know that Mat intended to hand said Empress one of her copies, given said Empress's aggressive intentions towards both Andor and Elayne personally, than for Mat to know about the last copy. He is not a channeler, after all.

 

Oh, and it would certainly be very helpful for important people on the side of Light to know the extent of Mat's memories, don't you think? But no, he clings to his secret for no good reason. Argh!

 

Mat is way more reckless than Elayne too, but since he has supernatural luck he doesn't need to be rescued from the logical consequences of his actions. Oh, and people he gets killed are faceless redshirts for the most part, so nobody cares about them.

[dwn]

Well in Mats defense, I probably wouldnt tell Elayne that either. Who knows how she would react. She may not hate them as much as Egwene, but she isnt exactly in their camp either.

 

Well, it is way more important for Elayne to know this, not to mention to know that Mat intended to hand said Empress one of her copies, given said Empress's aggressive intentions towards both Andor and Elayne personally, than for Mat to know about the last copy. He is not a channeler, after all.

 

Oh, and it would certainly be very helpful for important people on the side of Light to know the extent of Mat's memories, don't you think? But no, he clings to his secret for no good reason. Argh!

 

Mat is way more reckless than Elayne too, but since he has supernatural luck he doesn't need to be rescued from the logical consequences of his actions. Oh, and people he gets killed are faceless redshirts for the most part, so nobody cares about them.

 

Of all the forced pairing in WoT, the Mat-Tuon one stands out as the most bizarre to me. Those two have such different world views--aside from their suspicion and fear of channelling. I get that most of Tuon's behaviour is a front, but how the hell can Mat fall for her without seeing past that front? Yes, yes, reality wishes it to be...

 

Mat's plan to give Tuon a foxhead copy is stupid, but understandable. He likely doesn't fully realize that the damane might be able to duplicate the thing.

 

Another thing that struck me as odd was that Mat insisted the Band keep some of the dragons if they split off from Andor. Yet the most likely event is that a large group of his men go with him to Seanchan, giving the Empire access to the new technology, which Mat has otherwise been wanting to prevent.

 

The scene I'd like to see is Elayne asking Mat to lead the Andor and Cairhien armies, Mat agreeing, then Elayne slapping him the First Prince of the Sword title. First of all it'd be funny. Second it would tie him more to Andor/Cairhien and perhaps bring the issue of his divided loyalties to the foreground.

 

-- dwn

[David Selig]

I wonder whether wearing a copy of the foxhead would prevent a sul'dam from being able to control the damane. We will probably see that with Tuon in the next book.

 

From Mat's PoV, the foxhead copy is perfect for Tuon - not only it's good protection against enemy channellers, but it also prevents her from channelling on her own, which is the last thing he wants of his wife.

 

IIRC Jordan said several times that the only ter'angreal the Seanchan damane have learned to copy is the a'dam, which is apparently the most simple one for that. So I don't see them starting mass production of foxheads copies now.

[Jeangray]

IIRC Jordan said several times that the only ter'angreal the Seanchan damane have learned to copy is the a'dam, which is apparently the most simple one for that. So I don't see them starting mass production of foxheads copies now.

 

Well, they have also copied the Domination Band, didn't they? And who knows what they might be able to do now that the Pattern is throwing in all manner of Talents and skills for Tarmon Gaidon? And in any case, currently Tuon is an agressive enemy of Elayne and Andor. In fact, if she had known about Elayne's abilities and her group of the Kin, her troops may have been descending on Caemlyn instead of Tar Valon.

[f3llyn]

No.. they never copied the domination band. The one Semirhage had is the same one Elayne and company found in Tanchico and that Egeane(sp?) and Domon were supposed to dump in the ocean.

[Sharaman]

The copy might just save Tuon from being proclaimed damane if she is ever forced to take the a'dam test.

[David Selig]

No.. they never copied the domination band. The one Semirhage had is the same one Elayne and company found in Tanchico and that Egeane(sp?) and Domon were supposed to dump in the ocean.

Nope, actually the Seanchan or maybe Semirhage herself, copied the Domination Band, they had 6 male a'dam prepared when Rand met with them in KoD. On the other hand, I'd imagine the male and female version of a'dam must'be really similar, so if you know how to copy one, it's not much of a step to learn to copy the other.

 

Still, good point about the Pattern bringing back all kinds of Talents. So maybe the Seanchan would be able to do learn to copy other ter'angreals like the foxheads.

[f3llyn]

No.. they never copied the domination band. The one Semirhage had is the same one Elayne and company found in Tanchico and that Egeane(sp?) and Domon were supposed to dump in the ocean.

Nope, actually the Seanchan or maybe Semirhage herself, copied the Domination Band, they had 6 male a'dam prepared when Rand met with them in KoD. On the other hand, I'd imagine the male and female version of a'dam must'be really similar, so if you know how to copy one, it's not much of a step to learn to copy the other.

 

Still, good point about the Pattern bringing back all kinds of Talents. So maybe the Seanchan would be able to do learn to copy other ter'angreals like the foxheads.

Ah, my bad, I don't remember reading that at all.

[Mr Ares]

Given she can Travel she can respond by moving forces from the FoM to Andor quicker than Obama could get US forces from Botswana back to the US. Her country has not been left defenceless, and when the invasion comes she can respond to it quickly, so how has she failed in her duty in this respect?

 

It has been made clear that moving large numbers through gateways takes a considerable time.

True, but wherever she had her army, it would take time to respond. Using Traveling, where she moves from becomes, essentially, irrelevant. Whether her soldiers are in Andor or the FoM, they can get to the front as easily.

 

Hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. The TR hasn't been paying taxes, so why should they be entitled to the guards that those taxes pay for?

Right. Mutual obligations. I said that. And the Two Rivers ain't crying out for her help, are they?

The point is, how can Elayne be considered to have failed in her obligations?

 

Furthermore, her actions were politically necessary - if she allowed a rebel lord to take a chunk of her country it could cause political instability further down the line. More rebellions, civil war. Lots of people dying. By acting in the way she does, she prevents that.

Instead, she establishes the precedent that if she personally wants something, she will abrogate sovereignty over a chuck of Andor to a foreign power.

Ceding territory is within the monarch's rights.

 

There are some people who might benefit from the knowledge, but I don't really see how Mat is one of them. Would you care to explain?

Because he may very well be in a position to retrieve it, and he commands an army that may now have to face an enemy shielded from channeling. Why NOT tell him?

How would Mat be in a position to retrieve it? And he and his army might now have to face an enemy (singular) who is shielded from channeling when Mat is not a channeler, nor is anyone in the Band. What an insurmountable problem. No, telling channelers that this is a problem is reasonable - Egwene or the Kin should know - but I see no reason why Mat should be near the top of the list, as it makes no real difference to him.

 

Morally, coming to a compromise is better than descending into infighting in the face of Armageddon how? There were failings on both sides, but fortunately both sides were reasonable enough to build bridges and create a working solution. I don't have a problem with the morality of Elayne's actions here.

 

How about not infighting?

They didn't...

She has no valid claim to the Two Rivers.

On that point, I fear we must agree to disagree.

If Andor actually tried to claim all of the land once ruled by its' ruling house, what would that equal?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

She was given a gift.

As was Perrin.

 

I take it you have the numbers to back that up? I've seen estimates as high as 200,000 Andorans (at full strength, not all of them fully trained), can Perrin muster that many TR men, Ghealdanin and refugees? Probably not.

I don't care about the fully-mustered strength of the nation of Andor. What matters is what the two sides have, right then and there. She has, for all we can tell from the book, about 50,000. 20K that were hers and 30K that supported the other houses. The Band isn't going to fight Perrin. And ne has 70,000.

Full strength is a relevant consideration if there is more than one clash. Furthermore, while Perrin does have the advantage of numbers, it is not so great that he is guaranteed victory, and a significant number of his people are barely trained. So attempting to use the size of his army to force the issue is not a good idea.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Mat is way more reckless than Elayne too, but since he has supernatural luck he doesn't need to be rescued from the logical consequences of his actions. Oh, and people he gets killed are faceless redshirts for the most part, so nobody cares about them.

 

What people? The ones the gholam killed? I can't really see how Mat could have saved them.

 

Well, it is way more important for Elayne to know this, not to mention to know that Mat intended to hand said Empress one of her copies, given said Empress's aggressive intentions towards both Andor and Elayne personally, than for Mat to know about the last copy. He is not a channeler, after all.

 

The foxhead copies won't be all that useful in battle, if the opposition knows about their existence. They can't stop lightnings or physical objects hurled with air or any number of indirect attacks with the power. Powerful weaves get through the copies' protection too. The copies will prevent the damane from channelling and the Seanchan will probably be wary of giving them to their troops since the damane are the foundation of the Imperial power, if soldiers feel invulnerable to them they might get dangerous ideas. And I doubt the intention would be to portray Mat as the idiot who makes the Seanchan so much stronger, so if he does give a foxhead copy to Tuon most likely she will only use it herself. And it will be to an extent Elayne's fault for not telling Mat about the possibility of copying it (although obviously more of Mat's fault for not telling her much either). But Moiraine knows about Tuon now so maybe she might convince Mat not to give her that copy.

 

Of all the forced pairing in WoT, the Mat-Tuon one stands out as the most bizarre to me. Those two have such different world views--aside from their suspicion and fear of channelling. I get that most of Tuon's behaviour is a front, but how the hell can Mat fall for her without seeing past that front? Yes, yes, reality wishes it to be...

 

Not to mention that Mat could have pulled an Elayne (hello, topic!) and said "Hm, as long as I am a bachelor I will certainly not die because I have to marry one day to that Daughter of Nine Moons".

[babuada]

Elayne is entitled (figuratively, not just literally), somewhat arrogant, impulsive and slightly (by WOT standards) sexist.

 

But what she is, as a character, is a perfectly predictable product of her upbringing.

 

She's entitled. That is irritating. She feels that that she has a right to command. But, after all, she grew up as a princess and presumptive queen. Of course she's entitled. Note: this doesn't mean you have to like her. I don't, particularly. I have strong democratic impulses. That's one of the best things about the Two Rivers, IMO. It is actually a little disappointing to see the TR characters so eager to have a Lord.

 

She's arrogant. Yes, she is. But her arrogance isn't as irritating as that of, say, Egwene. Again, she grew up a princess. And, while her public persona may be as arrogant as Egwene, her POVs demonstrate some capacity for reflection and self-criticism. Which qualities are almost entirely absent from Egwene's POVs.

 

She's impulsive. Undeniable, I think, and has caused most of the problems with the BA, etc. People have complained that Mat (for example) is equally impulsive, and people don't get on him for it. Well, I do dislike that about Mat sometimes, actually. But there is a differnce, to me. Elayne has a Warder. Two, actually. She knows what it means to those Warders if she dies. And one of those Warders is the SOLE HOPE OF THE UNIVERSE! So when she risks her neck, she risks EVERYTHING. In those circumstances, her neck isn't hers to risk. Want freedom of action? Don't bond the Dragon Reborn. But she's a kid, and her POVs indicate that she can learn from her mistakes. The word, "ruefully" is used to describe her thoughts, on several occasions.

 

She's sexist. Well, all of the WOT women are, or at least start off that way. And Elayne grew up in a society where only a woman can rule, and in a family where the males were always aware of that and expected to defer. It is hard to blame her for some residual sexism, as long as she is working on it. And again, she has a lot less of it (in spite of better reason, given her upbringing) than Egwene.

 

So by and large, while I don't care for Elayne, I'm willing to give her more of a pass than some other characters. She grew up with biases, and is shown to be slowly overcoming them. That is a whole lot better, IMO, than growing up without these biases and quickly adopting them.

 

That haveing been said,there are some problems.

 

1. You can count me among those who don't think she has done enough to protect Andor from an invasion she knows is coming. Don't talk to me about increasing border defenses. If Barack Obama had notice of a planned invasion of the United States, adding a few more Border Patrol agents would not excuse him transporting virtually the entirety of the US military to Botswana for a meeting.

 

2. She seems a little shakey on the responsibility of rulers to the ruled. And this is a real change, one I find distasteful. In the earlier books, Elayne was keenly aware of this responsibility, and even lectured other characters about it. But now she is behaving as a feudal monarach who has forgotten the basic social contract of feudalism. The entire system is built on mutual obligations. If she has failed in her obligations, her people owe her nothing. You want to rule the Two Rivers, Elayne? Well than when trollocs and Whitecloaks appear, the Queen's Guard had better be right behind. Having given nothing to the Two Rivers, she has no right to expect anything from the Two Rivers. And don't give me any crap about needing to maintain the territorial integrity of Andor. She's giving away a hunk of the country to the Sea Folk to further her own ends. And a very visible (if small) chunk. So there is no way that allowing the Two Rivers, which hasn't seen a guardsman or tax collector in generations, to go its own way is setting any precedent that hasn't already been set.

 

3. She really should have told other people, including Mat, about losing the Foxhead copies. That is a major screw-up, and she needs to make sure all light-siders and most especially those who might be able to do something about it (e.g., Mat) know about it.

 

I don't like Elayne. In a just world, she would be deposed and an elected government set up in her place. But I can understand her. Unlike certain other characters (*cough* Egwene *cough*).

I really really like it.

[babuada]

Let me cover the good points of Elayne. I acknowledge that there are some. If I did a smilar post for Egwene, it wouldn't meet the minimum post character-count of the forum software.

 

1. Elayne shows a genuine concern for other people, including commoners. Her plan for offering healing to any who ask is exactly the sort of thing that channelers should do, and the fact that it has occured to no one before is the strongest indictment of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

2. I have never doubted that Elayne would act in what she saw as Andor's interests, even if those interests conflicted with those of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

3. Elayne is generally sympathetic to the notion that people should control their own destinies, and not have them planned out by others.

 

4. Elayne at least makes an effort to get Egwene to question her own positions. Not a strong effort, but honestly any such effort is destined to fail anyway.

 

5. She's apparently hot. (Mandatory non-PC statement to tweak the hyper-sensitive)

 

6. She is less sexist than some characters, and her sexism is on the wane, not the increase. She is actually a useful measuring rod for how far Nynaeve's character has come. When Nynaeve and Elayne were traveling together, Elayne was the less-sexist one. Now, Nynaeve has passed her. But still, Elayne shows development in this area.

My point of view :)

[babuada]

Let me cover the good points of Elayne. I acknowledge that there are some. If I did a smilar post for Egwene, it wouldn't meet the minimum post character-count of the forum software.

 

1. Elayne shows a genuine concern for other people, including commoners. Her plan for offering healing to any who ask is exactly the sort of thing that channelers should do, and the fact that it has occured to no one before is the strongest indictment of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

2. I have never doubted that Elayne would act in what she saw as Andor's interests, even if those interests conflicted with those of the White Tower. Good on Elayne.

 

3. Elayne is generally sympathetic to the notion that people should control their own destinies, and not have them planned out by others.

 

4. Elayne at least makes an effort to get Egwene to question her own positions. Not a strong effort, but honestly any such effort is destined to fail anyway.

 

5. She's apparently hot. (Mandatory non-PC statement to tweak the hyper-sensitive)

 

6. She is less sexist than some characters, and her sexism is on the wane, not the increase. She is actually a useful measuring rod for how far Nynaeve's character has come. When Nynaeve and Elayne were traveling together, Elayne was the less-sexist one. Now, Nynaeve has passed her. But still, Elayne shows development in this area.

Adding a point in her favor.

 

She has accepted some of her fault and repents. She said SORRY to mat and THANKS. That is a big leap.

[babuada]

Also Elayne does not go crazy over everybody not grovelling to her. (Unlike egg)

[randsc]

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

[babuada]

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has no claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You can make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes somthing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

You cannot make an intellectually honest and consistent argument that Elayne owes nothing to the Two Rivers, and that she has a claim to the Two Rivers.

 

It isn't complicated. There are mutual obligations. Since the Andoran throne has not provide protection and other services to the Two Rivers, it has abrogated its claim to the loyalty of the Two Rivers.

 

Stop being deliberately obtuse.

You cannot blame her. She is playing petty politics like every other ruler of the land. You cannot expect everyone to rise above their selfish motif, hunger for power etc.

[randsc]

Every ruler except Rand, Perrin, Dobraine, Darlin, the Aiel clan chiefs...

 

There are plenty of rulers not engaging in petty politics to the degree Elayne is.

 

I probably should have made it clear that my post above was a reply to Mr. Ares, who somehow believes that Elayne have no obligations to the Two Rivers, and yet still has a valid claim to it.

[babuada]

Every ruler except Rand, Perrin, Dobraine, Darlin, the Aiel clan chiefs...

 

There are plenty of rulers not engaging in petty politics to the degree Elayne is.

 

I probably should have made it clear that my post above was a reply to Mr. Ares, who somehow believes that Elayne have no obligations to the Two Rivers, and yet still has a valid claim to it.

Well said. If I missed to make it clear, I was trying to put some fire in your support. But I still have hope for her. Rand's love would probably turn her back from the path she took so far.

[babuada]

I think some of his fault comes from common AS trait. Like using people as tools. But she is not as corrupted as Egg. She cares to some extent. She is still arrogant but her arrogance is mostly childish. She hides information mostly not to hoard power but just to save her face, which is also childish. I hope she'll growup soon. She has great potential.

[Muad Cheade]

Every ruler except Rand, Perrin, Dobraine, Darlin, the Aiel clan chiefs...

 

There are plenty of rulers not engaging in petty politics to the degree Elayne is.

 

I probably should have made it clear that my post above was a reply to Mr. Ares, who somehow believes that Elayne have no obligations to the Two Rivers, and yet still has a valid claim to it.

Rand did. See his actions in Tear, Cairhien and Andor. Perrin did with Alliandre in Gheldean although Faile helps him out in that regad mostly. Dobraine is Cairhienin so he does that in his sleep although he is more straightforward and loyal than most Cairhienin. Darlin, while he fled the Stone of Tear when Rand took it, did the same when he was in rebellion. The Aiel don't do it because they are blunt to be honest.

 

I don't get the problem with Elayne's reaction to Perrin. He rebelled that's plain. She had every right to execute him according to the laws of Andor, but she didn't and she created an outcome that benefited everyone.

 

The same goes for her deals with Mat and the Kin. Each very much benefited Andor as a nation yet also gave the individuals involved what they were seeking as well.

[randsc]

Andor has no moral claim to sovereignty of the Two Rivers, nor the capacity to hold it without Perrin. Whatever claim Andor had to being the source of law in the Two Rivers, it abrogated long ago.

 

Also, chew on this: Elayne is aware that Perrin is necessary for Rand to succeed. And therefore, for the universe to avoid destruction. And yet she threatens to execute him? And people defend this?

[babuada]

Rand did. See his actions in Tear, Cairhien and Andor. Perrin did with Alliandre in Gheldean although Faile helps him out in that regad mostly. Dobraine is Cairhienin so he does that in his sleep although he is more straightforward and loyal than most Cairhienin. Darlin, while he fled the Stone of Tear when Rand took it, did the same when he was in rebellion. The Aiel don't do it because they are blunt to be honest.

 

I don't get the problem with Elayne's reaction to Perrin. He rebelled that's plain. She had every right to execute him according to the laws of Andor, but she didn't and she created an outcome that benefited everyone.

 

The same goes for her deals with Mat and the Kin. Each very much benefited Andor as a nation yet also gave the individuals involved what they were seeking as well.

Rand did it. Rand was in the process of turning to evil and did some horrible acts. Those you refer are some of his less horrible crimes. You are right to criticize him. Perrin has the bad influence of Faile. It is mostly Faile that drove him to do bad things. Aiel are not blunt. They are matured. So they do not have problem to face the problem face to face. I would say Darlin is much honest. I do not see him plotting in any POV. Dobrine I am not quite sure of though.

[Graveyardhag]

Andor has no moral claim to sovereignty of the Two Rivers, nor the capacity to hold it without Perrin. Whatever claim Andor had to being the source of law in the Two Rivers, it abrogated long ago.

 

Also, chew on this: Elayne is aware that Perrin is necessary for Rand to succeed. And therefore, for the universe to avoid destruction. And yet she threatens to execute him? And people defend this?

 

 

Elayne says earlier in the book that she wouldn't execute him.

The threat is just that, an empty threat. She wouldn't have done it, she already says so. It's politics.

 

Also, I agree that she has no moral claim to the Two Rivers. But moral claims and political claims are 2 different things. What her and Perrin worked out between them with Faile and Alliandre ( I hope thats the right person?) was the best solution.

[Randommer]

I thought Elayne was actaully okay in this book (joking with Mat etc). And, next to Egwene, she didn't even seem arrogant. But her attitude towards Rand was truly bizarre (not telling him she's pregnant and opposing his plans without talking to him, amongst a lot of other things). I mean writers can't just be like "these characters are in love. Take my word for it." And that seems to be the way the Elayne/Rand thing is.

 

Also, her reaction when her mother turned up alive was indescribably hollow, and that was definitely a let-down.