Discuss the Epiclogue

[Duskfire]

I dont think Camelyn will be taken. there are a million mercenaries outside the city. All it would take is for Mat to jaunt back, see what is happening, and take command of the Band as well as all those mercenary groups. Him saving Camelyn would be awesome just to see Elaynes reaction and have her thank him again. While the seal talk is going on at the Plains, thats what Mat will be doing. Kicking ass and taking names while everyone else meets up with Rand.

[Muad Cheade]

I dont think Camelyn will be taken. there are a million mercenaries outside the city. All it would take is for Mat to jaunt back, see what is happening, and take command of the Band as well as all those mercenary groups. Him saving Camelyn would be awesome just to see Elaynes reaction and have her thank him again. While the seal talk is going on at the Plains, thats what Mat will be doing. Kicking ass and taking names while everyone else meets up with Rand.

Mat is still stuck by the Tower of Ghenjei until noon the next day, and then he will be at the Field of Merrilor unless they have word of the Shadowspawn attack. Not to mention, the fact that the Seanchan will be attacking the White Tower during that period too.

 

Also, you have to remember that the mercenaries and armsmen (of which there are now where near a million or even 100,000) are inexperienced in fighting Trollocs (a frightening experience) and the Shadow attacked at night and by surprise. The situation is very dire.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple points.

 

1. The Light has had to take a city away from the Dark. Cairhien, and apparently Sammael was active in defense. Rand, Egwene and Aviendha's first large scale battle using the Power.

 

2. While I don't think Rand will take an active part in the fighting for Caemlyn, I do think he will take command of the defending forces. I think his foray to Shayol Gul will have to wait until he gets some of the fires put out, and probably until he gets the Seanchan and Black Tower under control. After that, I'd guess Mat will be in overall command of the Armies and Rand will head a commando style strike force to the Pit of Doom.

 

Additional point. When Rand took Caemlyn, there was a large scale fight with Trollocs and Myrrdraal, so there is a core of fighters in Caemlyn who have fought Shadowspawn before.

[Duskfire]

I dont think Camelyn will be taken. there are a million mercenaries outside the city. All it would take is for Mat to jaunt back, see what is happening, and take command of the Band as well as all those mercenary groups. Him saving Camelyn would be awesome just to see Elaynes reaction and have her thank him again. While the seal talk is going on at the Plains, thats what Mat will be doing. Kicking ass and taking names while everyone else meets up with Rand.

Mat is still stuck by the Tower of Ghenjei until noon the next day, and then he will be at the Field of Merrilor unless they have word of the Shadowspawn attack. Not to mention, the fact that the Seanchan will be attacking the White Tower during that period too.

 

Also, you have to remember that the mercenaries and armsmen (of which there are now where near a million or even 100,000) are inexperienced in fighting Trollocs (a frightening experience) and the Shadow attacked at night and by surprise. The situation is very dire.

 

Well, I was exaggerating with that million number :P I am willing to bet that Moiraine now knows how to Travel. I dont think its a coincedence that the majority of the Hand is still in Camelyn, with the Dragons. The Band will be holding them off, slowly losing the battle, and then Mat will come in and save the day. I just doubt that the good guys will lose the Dragons before they are ever used. Therefore Camelyn won't fall, or Talmanes will figure out a way to get a few of them out.

[Terror405]

1. I'm fairly sure it's the Cour'souvra for Granny Graendal. The question is who has taken over her job. it couldn't be Moridin as I think he has gone beyond being "given" anything.

 

3. Verin's letter was awfully boring IMHO. I was expecting something riveting. I though that Olver's resolve to seek the Finn's was almost like a horror movie ending. You know, ~It's not over yet 'cos I'm gonna go open that can of worms all over again~. I do NOT like where that is going.

 

5. Half of me wants to see Lanfear go good. She seems like an old friend to me and I've always had a bit of soft spot for lunatics. I think it is to late for Rand to go getting trapped again, plus SuperZenJesusJedi Rand doesn't seem to be the type to make those sort of mistakes. But who knows?

 

6. LAN WILL NOT DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ChaosNovaXZ]

Who was the Whitecloak that Graendal referred to near the end? She mentally chastised Isam and an unnamed Whitecloak while packing. Was she talking about Carridin? Or was Byar actually a Darkfriend all along, and a last resort should Perrin survive the trolloc ambush?

[Duskfire]

Who was the Whitecloak that Graendal referred to near the end? She mentally chastised Isam and an unnamed Whitecloak while packing. Was she talking about Carridin? Or was Byar actually a Darkfriend all along, and a last resort should Perrin survive the trolloc ambush?

 

I assume that Byar was compulsed. I seriously doubt he was a darkfriend. Its possible, but unlikely. He hated Perrin already, and Graendal just took advantage of that and made it so that no amount of convincing would change it.

[jwillis7]

Who was the Whitecloak that Graendal referred to near the end? She mentally chastised Isam and an unnamed Whitecloak while packing. Was she talking about Carridin? Or was Byar actually a Darkfriend all along, and a last resort should Perrin survive the trolloc ambush?

 

I assume that Byar was compulsed. I seriously doubt he was a darkfriend. Its possible, but unlikely. He hated Perrin already, and Graendal just took advantage of that and made it so that no amount of convincing would change it.

he could have been corrupted by Fain, Elidia got so much worse after being around him and Byar was with him longer wasn't he?

[Shard]

What baffles me is why the heck the Caemlyn Waygate wasn't already taken care of. I remember several books ago Rand sent Loial with an Ashaman (Kinsman?) to seal up EVERY LAST ONE of the Waygates he could map out. Yet this one is left ungaurded and unnoticed?? Why wasn't this one of the first Waygates destroyed? Not just closed but melt the damn thing into a puddle like Moraine did back in the first book.

[Duskfire]

Who was the Whitecloak that Graendal referred to near the end? She mentally chastised Isam and an unnamed Whitecloak while packing. Was she talking about Carridin? Or was Byar actually a Darkfriend all along, and a last resort should Perrin survive the trolloc ambush?

 

I assume that Byar was compulsed. I seriously doubt he was a darkfriend. Its possible, but unlikely. He hated Perrin already, and Graendal just took advantage of that and made it so that no amount of convincing would change it.

he could have been corrupted by Fain, Elidia got so much worse after being around him and Byar was with him longer wasn't he?

 

Well sure its possible, except we have Graendals comment regarding a Whitecloak, and he seemed mighty eager to kill Perrin. Thats the only reason why I think it was Graendal; there was no other Whitecloak that was fanatically against Perrin. Besides, I am not sure if Fain turns people against the other two ta`veren? It always seems to be a Rand thing. Pedron Niall, Toram Riatin, Elaida; they all become somewhat obsessed with Rand after that. Granted they are in the situation to be obessed with Rand in the first place, but maybe thats the only thing he can amplify in this case.

[capuga]

What baffles me is why the heck the Caemlyn Waygate wasn't already taken care of. I remember several books ago Rand sent Loial with an Ashaman (Kinsman?) to seal up EVERY LAST ONE of the Waygates he could map out. Yet this one is left ungaurded and unnoticed?? Why wasn't this one of the first Waygates destroyed? Not just closed but melt the damn thing into a puddle like Moraine did back in the first book.

 

We see both Rand and especially the Ogier reluctant to actually destroy the Waygates, probably in hope that they can be cleaned and used in the future. Their M.O. appears to be more of a remove the leaves and guard the door type of plan. Verin's letter implies that they thought the gate was safe and taken care of (meaning it wasn't just ignored and forgotten) but that the steps taken to make it safe were not sufficient.

[Jeangray]

Verin's letter implies that they thought the gate was safe and taken care of (meaning it wasn't just ignored and forgotten) but that the steps taken to make it safe were not sufficient.

 

Yes, but Rand also wove super-deadly anti-Shadowspawn only wards around the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. I understand that he decided that he lacked the time do it to _all_ the existing Waygates, but it seems epicly idiotic not to do it to those located in major cities under his control. Particularly since Moiraine demonstrated in TEoTW that it is possible for channelers to break through closed Waygates.

The other option would be quite omnious - namely that even Rand's wards aren't unassailable.

[capuga]

Verin's letter implies that they thought the gate was safe and taken care of (meaning it wasn't just ignored and forgotten) but that the steps taken to make it safe were not sufficient.

 

Yes, but Rand also wove super-deadly anti-Shadowspawn only wards around the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. I understand that he decided that he lacked the time do it to _all_ the existing Waygates, but it seems epicly idiotic not to do it to those located in major cities under his control. Particularly since Moiraine demonstrated in TEoTW that it is possible for channelers to break through closed Waygates.

The other option would be quite omnious - namely that even Rand's wards aren't unassailable.

 

I thought the reason he did that specifically at Shadar Logoth was because he would not be able to leave anyone in that city to guard the gate. Although I agree that there is no reason he couldn't have done this at other gates as well. Especially since he sent an Asha'man was Loial. He could have shown Karldin the weaves and had him do this everywhere.

[didymos]

I assume that Byar was compulsed. I seriously doubt he was a darkfriend. Its possible, but unlikely. He hated Perrin already, and Graendal just took advantage of that and made it so that no amount of convincing would change it.

 

Why do you assume that? There's no reason to: he always wanted to kill Perrin, since before any Forsaken besides Ishy was loose, and he's never, ever shown any inclination to doubt that he's in the right. He just lacked a good opportunity. There's absolutely nothing in the book that even remotely suggests Graendal came anywhere near him. Byar was just a zealot and a terrible person. His behavior requires no additional explanation. As for the idiot Whitecloak: she's talking about Galad. He blundered into Perrin, and interfered with the trap she had planned. Had he not shown up, Perrin would have just gone on to Lugard and been ambushed by the Trolloc horde. Instead, he sat around for days, which gave him the opportunity to discover and disarm the dreamspike, and then gated to Whitebridge.

[jwillis7]

Verin's letter implies that they thought the gate was safe and taken care of (meaning it wasn't just ignored and forgotten) but that the steps taken to make it safe were not sufficient.

 

Yes, but Rand also wove super-deadly anti-Shadowspawn only wards around the Waygate at Shadar Logoth. I understand that he decided that he lacked the time do it to _all_ the existing Waygates, but it seems epicly idiotic not to do it to those located in major cities under his control. Particularly since Moiraine demonstrated in TEoTW that it is possible for channelers to break through closed Waygates.

The other option would be quite omnious - namely that even Rand's wards aren't unassailable.

 

I thought the reason he did that specifically at Shadar Logoth was because he would not be able to leave anyone in that city to guard the gate. Although I agree that there is no reason he couldn't have done this at other gates as well. Especially since he sent an Asha'man was Loial. He could have shown Karldin the weaves and had him do this everywhere.

yea i find this stupid, he used that waygate i dont understand how to ones in side cities are not priority number one

[Cyf]

I think it's obvious what happened in relation to the Caemlyn Waygate.

 

Rand took away the flowers, sealing it. Unfortunately, Ishy has a ton of ter'angreal and just happens to have stolen a Talisman of Growing, probably from one of the Stedding that were overtaken by the Blight. They can re-open a sealed Waygate.

[mdnyttokr]

1. Graendal's in trouble.

I think the main part of her arc is basically finished. Oh, I think we'll see her again, but she's out of time to come up with another plan that would sufficiently impress DO/SH in the time left before TG. Look for one more appearance for her, on the field of battle, completely out of her element, where I believe she will be killed by... well -- pretty much anything. My point is, she's done.

 

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

Perrin realizes he will not lose himself to the wolf as long as he does not want to. He will live through TG, but Elyas will die (which will fulfill the Dark Prophecy about a wolfbrother dying. I believe Galad and Berelain will also both not survive TG.

 

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

Caemlyn will burn. Mat and the Band will recover the dragons, with help from Moiraine and Thom.

 

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

I believe this is going to be connected in some way to the "private lessons" Taim has been giving Asha'man. I have absolutely no evidence for this, other than Androl's musings that people don't seem quite the same after coming back from those sessions. Or it could be SOLELY the male Aiel Channelers that ran off to the blight to die. Either/or.

 

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

Will not be a major factor, unless of course Rand is able to save/redeem Mierin in some way, and maybe she'll help the Light at TG, but I doubt it. I think she's Moridin and SH's little toy right now, and she'll only be let loose at TG to wreak havoc with other Dreadlords. And now it seems Graendal has the same fate in store for her.

 

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

Okay, here's my big loony theory: Lan's battle begins just as Egwene begins to attempt to convince Rand not to break the seals. At the start of this argument, Nynaeve and Elayne will be firmly on Egwene's side, but DURING the debate, Lan will be killed in battle and Nynaeve will feel it while Elayne learns that Caemlyn has been burned to the ground. Once the initial shock is passed, Nynaeve (in grief and anger) and Elayne (in MUCH anger) will switch sides, and agree with Rand. The time for trying to hold the DO back is over, and now the time has come to fight. After all, what is more dangerous than a group of uber-powerful channlers with nothing left to lose except their desire for revenge.

[mdnyttokr]

Man, I cannot wait until after AMoL is released and everyone has seen the ending, and Brandon/Harriet/Maria can answer all these nagging little questions.

 

They could probably release another guide book just to detail all this minutia. After all, the first guide was released shortly after book 7, and there have been 7 more books since that guide. Seems to me like we have enough material for another guide.

[capuga]

Man, I cannot wait until after AMoL is released and everyone has seen the ending, and Brandon/Harriet/Maria can answer all these nagging little questions.

 

They could probably release another guide book just to detail all this minutia. After all, the first guide was released shortly after book 7, and there have been 7 more books since that guide. Seems to me like we have enough material for another guide.

 

They are planning to release a full encyclopedia when the series is done.

[Sharaman]

I assume that Byar was compulsed. I seriously doubt he was a darkfriend. Its possible, but unlikely. He hated Perrin already, and Graendal just took advantage of that and made it so that no amount of convincing would change it.

 

Why do you assume that? There's no reason to: he always wanted to kill Perrin, since before any Forsaken besides Ishy was loose, and he's never, ever shown any inclination to doubt that he's in the right. He just lacked a good opportunity. There's absolutely nothing in the book that even remotely suggests Graendal came anywhere near him. Byar was just a zealot and a terrible person. His behavior requires no additional explanation. As for the idiot Whitecloak: she's talking about Galad. He blundered into Perrin, and interfered with the trap she had planned. Had he not shown up, Perrin would have just gone on to Lugard and been ambushed by the Trolloc horde. Instead, he sat around for days, which gave him the opportunity to discover and disarm the dreamspike, and then gated to Whitebridge.

Read the section where Graendal orders Slayer to go through with the attack again. She thinks she has a final ace in the hole who could have a shot at killing Perrin in the midst of a battle, even though he's ta'veren. Then she thinks "Idiot Whitecloak" after the attack fails. She did get to Byar sometime and reinforce his hatred of Perrin. For all you know, she also got to Aram since Brandon confirmed it was a woman who was imitating the Dragon and giving instructions to Masema. It would make plot sense though it's unlikely to be ever clarified.

[didymos]

Read the section where Graendal orders Slayer to go through with the attack again. She thinks she has a final ace in the hole who could have a shot at killing Perrin in the midst of a battle, even though he's ta'veren.

 

Yeah, you're right. I'd forgotten about that. And given her ability to understand individual psychology, she was probably counting on Perrin returning to save the Whitecloaks. I still think Galad and Co. showing up in the first place was a fluke though, and one she simply tried to make use of.

[FanoLan]

I dont think Camelyn will be taken. there are a million mercenaries outside the city. All it would take is for Mat to jaunt back, see what is happening, and take command of the Band as well as all those mercenary groups. Him saving Camelyn would be awesome just to see Elaynes reaction and have her thank him again. While the seal talk is going on at the Plains, thats what Mat will be doing. Kicking ass and taking names while everyone else meets up with Rand.

Mat is still stuck by the Tower of Ghenjei until noon the next day, and then he will be at the Field of Merrilor unless they have word of the Shadowspawn attack. Not to mention, the fact that the Seanchan will be attacking the White Tower during that period too.

 

Also, you have to remember that the mercenaries and armsmen (of which there are now where near a million or even 100,000) are inexperienced in fighting Trollocs (a frightening experience) and the Shadow attacked at night and by surprise. The situation is very dire.

 

Talmanes to the rescue.

 

No need for Mat, and thankfully since he is next headed to FoM. At least a portion of the mercs in the area will mistake Talmanes for Mat. That will be enough for the rest to fall in behind the banner of TBOTRH and save the city until help arrives. Now, the smoking pipe intimates this may not end well for our favorite stoic Cairhienen, but maybe.

[vicmar]

 

 

Talmanes to the rescue.

 

 

 

 

I read the 1st 9 pages and got too frustrated, so I registered and didn't read 10 or 11... but why hasn't anyone considered that Talmanes and the Band will break into Caemlyn, snag the dragons, and decimate the Shadowspawn? That would be a good way of showing the slines (sry for the Anathem reference) that they too can wreck havok on the baddies w/o getting too down and dirty.

 

I realize that would result in the destruction of Caemlyn (I really hope I'm spelling that correctly, not interested enough to check though o.O), but that seems likely anyway unless the Really Big Meeting turns around/stalls/makes a pitstop before continuing north for the LB

[FanoLan]

 

 

Talmanes to the rescue.

 

 

 

 

I read the 1st 9 pages and got too frustrated, so I registered and didn't read 10 or 11... but why hasn't anyone considered that Talmanes and the Band will break into Caemlyn, snag the dragons, and decimate the Shadowspawn? That would be a good way of showing the slines (sry for the Anathem reference) that they too can wreck havok on the baddies w/o getting too down and dirty.

 

I realize that would result in the destruction of Caemlyn (I really hope I'm spelling that correctly, not interested enough to check though o.O), but that seems likely anyway unless the Really Big Meeting turns around/stalls/makes a pitstop before continuing north for the LB

 

Are you asking me why no one else presented this idea before my post? If so, I surely cannot provide an answer.

[Carteeg_Struve]

1. Graendal's in trouble.

Poor poor, Kammy. Oh well. If she's smart, maybe she can still worm her way out of things and her upcoming consummation with SH.

 

G: *screams* *screams* *blinks* "Wait, you're actually pretty good."

SH: "I assure you I will have much more pleasure than you."

G: "Then you must be having a good time."

SH: "I shall taste your flesh."

G: "Oh yeah. Dirty talk! More! More!"

SH: "Uh..."

G: "Don't stop!"

SH: "What are you-?"

G: "Tell me you'll feast upon my soul! Do it!"

SH: "... I think I'll be leaving now."

G: "What?"

SH: "Just uh... continue whatever you were doing. I'll call you later."

G: "Hey! Don't go! GET BACK HERE, YOU BASTARD!"

 

2. Perrin realises Noam chose to become a wolf.

 

Two top things the pattern was most cruel with Perrin for:

 

Number Two: Letting him think that being a Wolfbrother was dangerous for over two years prior to a "just kidding" immediately before Tarmon Gai'don.

 

And number One (say it with me): Faile

 

 

 

Yeah, the slaughter of his family at best was number three.

 

3. Olver's seems to be a budding sociopath, and Caemlyn is invaded by Shadowspawn. Talmanes fears the loss of the Dragons.

 

I didn't see him as a sociopath. Just naive due to being raised in a screwed up time. They can still set him straight. He's nowhere near Aram territory yet.

 

I'm not sure what happened with the Waygate. My guess is that Rand only had Loyal lock the doors when Moridin came up whistling while holding the Age of Legends version of a Battering Ram (with a C4 explosive tip).

 

4. Creepy Red Aiel Dudes.

 

I'm liking all of the theories on this. By the way, my brain is remembering a line about other Aiel clans that were too far east to join Rand in the initial crossing over the spine. Did they ever catch up, or could they also be involved in this.

 

5. Rand dreams of Cyndane.

 

Cue Ahkbar. But I also think Lanfear is being tortured here.

 

General conversation -

Cyn) "I want to make Lews Therin hurt."

Mor) "Good. I have an idea to make him suffer. If you do well, things might turn better for you."

Cyn) "I'm listening."

Mor) "It's simple. You can penetrate his dreams. If he learns you are being tortured, his nobility will get the better of him. His guard will be down and he'll come running."

Cyn) "Sounds good. Tortured. I can play that."

Mor) *smirking* "Play?"

Cyn) "... Oh f-"

 

My guess is that Mierin will turn away from the Shadow and try to get her sorry ass out of Dodge, but I don't see him really turning good. Yes, she is great with deception; but I can't see any reason why Moridin would NOT torture her to ensure a convincing performance. It will just come down to whether or not she can control herself in the end, because brilliant tactician or not, when it comes to Lews Therin... da bitch is crazy.

 

6. Lan reaches the Gap.

 

Me.... want..... MORE!

 

Anyway, it was Lan's future that showed a babe holding a sword, so I'm guessing Lan has to survive to be there to see his own kid.... Otherwise Min's viewing of Lan wouldn't really had been Lan's viewing but his future child's, so.... Yeah. I could be wrong. Crossing fingers.

 

I did love the "count" of followers during the first half of the book though. My brain kept thinking of the number count by fingers they did for the Magnificent Seven every time it came up.