Discuss The Prophecies

[Val Mickey]

TheEndIsNear's theory is impressive. Adding in the fact that Manetheren was destroyed on Ishamael's orders - who has become Death - it's cool. I don't believe it would break men's hearts - but maybe it could.

[FarShainMael]

The TR does seem to be at the heart of things. There are the three ta'veren, Egwene, Nynaeve who helped with the Cleansing and who will assist Rand at SG, all the channellers that both AS and Asha'man have found there.. I note that the TR men at the BT seem to be behind Logain, not Taim.. If the TR goes down, enough hearts will be broken on the side of the Light for it to have a devastating effect.

 

Tam may be the first to go.

[Asgard Thorin]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

Sorry, but you're reading it wrong. Avi's viewing in Rhuidean of the future should have made it quite clear she's going to have quadruplets. They all seem to have some quite odd channeling abilities, also. As Min viewed, Avi will have four of Rand's children at once and they will all be born healthy.

 

We have no idea how many kids Min is going to have with Rand. She can't view herself.

Or Aviendha will have four kids at once and die in childbirth. That could also be the something odd. Remember, Aviendha's daughter was a very young woman, only seventeen or so becasuse that was how long the Dragon's Peace lasted, yet it seemed her mother was already dead...otherwise Aviendha would have had something to say about the Aiel ending the Dragon's Peace. As for her seeing her own face from her evil Couladinish granddaughter's perspective, well someone might have been able to show her grandmothers face using the One Power. I think Nakomi was the warning from the future...

[Sharaman]

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

Sorry, but you're reading it wrong. Avi's viewing in Rhuidean of the future should have made it quite clear she's going to have quadruplets. They all seem to have some quite odd channeling abilities, also. As Min viewed, Avi will have four of Rand's children at once and they will all be born healthy.

 

We have no idea how many kids Min is going to have with Rand. She can't view herself.

Or Aviendha will have four kids at once and die in childbirth. That could also be the something odd. Remember, Aviendha's daughter was a very young woman, only seventeen or so becasuse that was how long the Dragon's Peace lasted, yet it seemed her mother was already dead...otherwise Aviendha would have had something to say about the Aiel ending the Dragon's Peace. As for her seeing her own face from her evil Couladinish granddaughter's perspective, well someone might have been able to show her grandmothers face using the One Power. I think Nakomi was the warning from the future...

Her grand-daughter could have seen her face in the Rhuidean columns. Assuming that Avi used a mirror at some point when her grand-kid was experiencing her PoV.

[RickTCPB]

The TR does seem to be at the heart of things. There are the three ta'veren, Egwene, Nynaeve who helped with the Cleansing and who will assist Rand at SG, all the channellers that both AS and Asha'man have found there.. I note that the TR men at the BT seem to be behind Logain, not Taim.. If the TR goes down, enough hearts will be broken on the side of the Light for it to have a devastating effect.

 

Tam may be the first to go.

 

Good point; unless I have missed the hints completely (which is easy for me to do with this series) I don't think we know where Tam went. If he ends up back in the Two Rivers if/when something goes down...it would be a shame to see Rand lose his newfound confidence right at TG.

 

*Edit* And to Val's comment that it wouldn't necessarily "break men's hearts" my thought process was related to the number of important characters that have a direct stake in the Two Rivers if it were to be completely wiped out. Although Perrin has pretty much already lost his entire family; he is the upcoming Lord of the area and still cares for the people he grew up with. Rand would possibly lose Tam (depending on his location), and Egwene and Mat would lose their families/friends. So in one single blow you have affected the leaders of the White Tower, the Band of the Red Hand, the Perrin 'gang', and the entire armies/nations following Rand - and who knows what would happen at the Black Tower if the Two Rivers bunch tries to leave after hearing of their families demise. If any or all of those characters take a step back at the start of TG then the light side loses momentum and a chance of winning.

[Vels]

Hi all

 

First time poster - apologies if this theory has been posted by another...

 

Per Rand in his meeting with the Borderlanders, prophecies are about events tha might happen. Looking at the prophecy in that light, it is telling of how things might have unfolded had certain events in this book gone differently.

 

The one-eyed fool is Matt, who having paid the price with the Eelfinn and lost his eye couldn't figure out the purpose of his spear, therefore destined to 'wander the halls of mourning'. Him not being able to figure it out might make him a 'fool' also.

 

The Fallen Backsmith's prides last days I think is Perrin and his army who were defeated by Graendal. Because of his links to the wolves, Perrin wandered TAR upon his death, where he ran into either Slayer (a tool of the Forsaken) or Graendal or Moridin. This would satisfy the Broken Wolf who knows Death being consumed by the Towers of Midnight.

 

Rand, due to his links with Perrin and Matt, knows of their failures/deaths and goes crazy. Remember Rand told someone in the book that they had to face the Dark One sooner while they were still strong. Havin lost his two closest allies Rand would decide to break the seals as soon as possible before anyone else dies. "In that day" Matt will lose his eye and get stuck in the world of the Eelfinn, Perrin and his army will be destroyed, and finally Rand will act quickly to destroy the seals.

 

The "Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion" I think is the Dark one (or his champion) facing a broken Rand. Broken either because he never had his Veins of Gold experience, or broken because he has lost two legs of the tripod referencd by a fade i Dragon Reborn.

 

Because certain events happened differently, the prophecy would have been fulfilled. Because they didnt, the prophecy went unfulfilled, only describing how events 'might' have happened.

 

Thoughts? Sorry for the length/rambling

[Mr Ares]

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. "

 

Hello - first time posting here so go easy on me....

 

Although I think we will find that one of the more obvious guesses (Lan, Perrin, Ilturade, etc) is probably correct, I really latched on to the idea that the "Broken Wolf" could be more than just a person, but rather a group of people. I mainly want to run with this theory a little more because, as someone else mentioned, whoever the "Broken Wolf" turns out to be it is pretty apparent that their demise will most certainly have a large impact. So if it isn't a single individual who's "destruction" would bring that about then a group of people might do that. So to stir up the theory pot a bit I would like to suggest that the "Broken Wolf" could be the Two Rivers.

 

1.Although the "Broken Wolf" is certainly a far stretch to represent this area, I think that its at least plausible as the region once was a formidable stronghold against the Shadow (Trolloc Wars) until it met its end - "Broken". The area was also "Broken" again in TsR when the area was overrun with Whitecloaks, Trollocs/Fades, and our buddy Slayer - which leads to my next point...

2.Whether it be Manethera (sp?) during the Trolloc wars, or the Two Rivers during the trolloc fiasco in TsR; the area has certainly known death before. Yes, I know - not necessarily D-eath, but death; and certainly at the hands of the DO and his specific wishes

3.I know someone is going to mention the fact that the flag/symbol of Manethera is the Red Eagle and I agree. However, Perrin agreed to give up that particular banner and his 'efforts' to ressurect Manathera as a nation have been put to bed. Since that time, Perrin has taken up the Wolf banner so it is strongly associated to him and there are at least a couple of references to it being associated to the Two Rivers as a people/location even fairly early on in the series (ala Egwene dream if I'm not mistaken). Also, as we saw in the ToM, Elayne has all but promised to legitimize Perrin's lordship over the area as long as he remains a part of her realm so more than likely the area would become publically associated with the Wolf banner, not just among the Two Rivers people themselves.

4.A.If the "Midnight Towers" indeed refer to the Forsaken as in Egwene's dream and popular theory: The Forsaken certainly have a reason to wipe out everyone in the Two Rivers because it would most certainly "bring fear and sorrow" to our main characters, which would drag down the Light side in general, etc.

4.B.Just for the fun of it - if the "Midnight Towers" is a reference to the Seanchan then it might be interesting to see Egwene lead the Aes Sedai to the Two Rivers after the upcoming attack by Tuon's bunch in hopes that not many people would know where it is and make it difficult for the Seanchan to Travel there easily, but instead lead the Two Rivers to be "consumed" and have to flee again

 

Anyway, I just thought it was a different take on the part of the prophecy that people are seeming to struggle with. Enjoy.

Interesting. But the TR as a region is not associated with the wolf banner, that is Perrin's personal banner (it was raised at the same time as the Red Eagle). And given that technically, per the agreement between Elayne and Perrin in this book, Perrin is not the Lord of the TR, Rand is, then surely it should be the Dragon that represents the region?

 

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids.

 

I think you have a little bit to learn about biology. You see, some women are more fertile than others, and therefore can end up having more kids than others.

 

This has nothing to do with biology. It is a fiction series.

It makes far more sense that the author would write it with each of them having a few kids.

I find it even probably that each of them would have 2 and they would each be a boy/girl twin set. That would be a typical Rand ta'veren type of thing to happen.

Sorry, but you're reading it wrong. Avi's viewing in Rhuidean of the future should have made it quite clear she's going to have quadruplets. They all seem to have some quite odd channeling abilities, also. As Min viewed, Avi will have four of Rand's children at once and they will all be born healthy.

 

We have no idea how many kids Min is going to have with Rand. She can't view herself.

Or Aviendha will have four kids at once and die in childbirth. That could also be the something odd.

I think this, much like the Avi-adopts-two-of-Min's-kids theory, misses that big elephant in the room: Avi's kids are permanently holding the Source. Neither adoption nor death in childbirth is all that uncommon, permanently holding the OP is, so I know what I'm backing for the "something odd".

[cynic]

 

 

Because certain events happened differently, the prophecy would have been fulfilled. Because they didnt, the prophecy went unfulfilled, only describing how events 'might' have happened.

 

Thoughts? Sorry for the length/rambling

 

Well, I think this thought has merit. The prophecies mention things that must/should happen before one side wins/loses. They're a guideline in a way. The prophecies of the light mention what must happen for Rand to win, and so do the shadow's. I can't remember where they said it, but it was mentioned that Min's visions are only good if Rand defeats the shadow... Otherwise there is no wheel.

Think about it this way- If one side follows all his prophecies, then it wins completely (or the sha'ra equivalent, since that game seems to mimic the actual battle between light and shadow).

 

I mean, it seems that sha'ra is a good way to look at this: The moves of the various pieces are dictated by the prophecies, and can be countered. So that's why there's the possibility of a tie, a marginal win and a total victory. If Rand was turned to the shadow and killed by his own troops- then it's a marginal win for the shadow, but still something that can be recuperated from, given time, something along those lines, anyway.

 

The way I see it, the Broken Wolf refers to Ituralde. If Rand hadn't intervened his forces would have lost Maradon, which would have been a horrible blow to his troops morale. Basically, Rand denied the shadow some serious advantage in the future- perhaps there were so many shadow forces there just because it would have been so important a victory- thus stripping other parts of the blightborder of decisive troops (not that there's a shortage of trollocs, it's just that he put a whole lot on the Maradon line).

 

Whew, that turned to be longer than expected.

 

(Let's see if my long months of lurking have come up with something good ;)

[FarShainMael]

 

 

Because certain events happened differently, the prophecy would have been fulfilled. Because they didnt, the prophecy went unfulfilled, only describing how events 'might' have happened.

 

Thoughts? Sorry for the length/rambling

 

Well, I think this thought has merit. The prophecies mention things that must/should happen before one side wins/loses. They're a guideline in a way. e actual battle between light and shadow).

 

This brought to mind the Seanchan prophecy (messed with by Ishy) which says:

 

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

 

What Ishy might have meant was that the 'all is lost' bit really refers to the Seanchan dominance of the world..

[Franzenstein]

I'm not convinced that the Broken Wolf is Perrin. As of now, Death hasn't known him. The idea that he could die, continue on in the wolf dream, and perhaps die there confronting slayer doesn't work as well because his dying there wouldn't kill morale because everyone would have already thought that he was dead.

 

It seems to me that everyone is reading "Midnight Towers" as the same thing as "Towers of Midnight." They might be, but not necessarily.

 

Egwene's dream of being saved by a Seanchan with a sword on her back doesn't mean it's going to be Eagenin. It could be any female soldier convinced that their ways are flawed who decides to help the Aes Sedai and/or Rand. It COULD be her since she's taking off and she's one that we know has switched allegiances, but it's far from 100%.

 

Mat walking the halls of mourning likely doesn't refer to finn land since nobody has ever called their place the halls of mourning. It could refer to a decimated Caemlyn, a White Tower after a real attack, or to something to do with Tuon.

 

Could the oddness about Avis' babies have something to do with Elayne's babies being born healthy, but nothing said of Elayne herself? Elayne is dying, somehow Nynaeve figures out a way to transport her twins into Aviendha, saving the babies even though Elayne is dying.

[Sharaman]

Could the oddness about Avis' babies have something to do with Elayne's babies being born healthy, but nothing said of Elayne herself? Elayne is dying, somehow Nynaeve figures out a way to transport her twins into Aviendha, saving the babies even though Elayne is dying.

 

In Avi's vision, Elayne's descendants are queens in Andor - there are clearly two different lines of descent.

[Lacanos]

I'm not convinced that the Broken Wolf is Perrin. As of now, Death hasn't known him. The idea that he could die, continue on in the wolf dream, and perhaps die there confronting slayer doesn't work as well because his dying there wouldn't kill morale because everyone would have already thought that he was dead.

 

It seems to me that everyone is reading "Midnight Towers" as the same thing as "Towers of Midnight." They might be, but not necessarily.

 

Egwene's dream of being saved by a Seanchan with a sword on her back doesn't mean it's going to be Eagenin. It could be any female soldier convinced that their ways are flawed who decides to help the Aes Sedai and/or Rand. It COULD be her since she's taking off and she's one that we know has switched allegiances, but it's far from 100%.

 

Mat walking the halls of mourning likely doesn't refer to finn land since nobody has ever called their place the halls of mourning. It could refer to a decimated Caemlyn, a White Tower after a real attack, or to something to do with Tuon.

 

Could the oddness about Avis' babies have something to do with Elayne's babies being born healthy, but nothing said of Elayne herself? Elayne is dying, somehow Nynaeve figures out a way to transport her twins into Aviendha, saving the babies even though Elayne is dying.

But we do know Egeanin is on her way to TV. It's certainly the most probably (as it's likely to be a character also, and she's the only turned Seanchan swordswoman that we know of).

[GB]

anyone has an idea on min's viewing about the pipe? forgot the exact wording but she sees it around rand

[blazetheearth]

anyone has an idea on min's viewing about the pipe? forgot the exact wording but she sees it around rand

 

The EWoT does not record any viewing of hers about a pipe. Is it from ToM? I don't remember it if so. Could you possibly provide a reference?

 

Here is the link to Min's viewings on EWoT.

[FarShainMael]

In ToM13, when Rand returns to Tear after VoG, Min sees new viewings around him, as well as a 'distortion' of the air around him, which she thinks is 'a trick of the sunlight'. The viewings are:

 

'An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.'

[GB]

In ToM13, when Rand returns to Tear after VoG, Min sees new viewings around him, as well as a 'distortion' of the air around him, which she thinks is 'a trick of the sunlight'. The viewings are:

 

'An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.'

 

Yep thats the one I was referring to.

 

The only guess I have is the open cavern could be Shayol Ghul and the bloodstained rocks could be a reference to the blood of the dragon which is in the prophecy of the dragon.

[blazetheearth]

In ToM13, when Rand returns to Tear after VoG, Min sees new viewings around him, as well as a 'distortion' of the air around him, which she thinks is 'a trick of the sunlight'. The viewings are:

 

'An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.'

 

Okay, I remember now thank you for providing the reference. I agree with GB about the first sentence of the quote. And as for the second sentence, I'm not sure. The first image that popped into my head was not a smoking pipe but a water type pipe instead. If the images she referes to was that of a pipe that would be used to carry water with smoke coming from the end, could easily describe a "dragon" to someone familiar with aqueducts but not familiar with cannons. Interesting that it does not say if the trollocs that are surrounding the dead men are alive or not. Doubtful that either dead man is Rand since she didn't recognize him, but she has had other visions around him that were of him without her knowing it was about him so really it's inconclusive. Don't know your guess is as good as any right now.

[Guest minstrel_87]

What do people think of this idea? I've always thought it would be amusing if the whole time this prophecy was not in fact referring to Rand's blood:

 

“Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.”

 

Random theory but maybe this quote actually refers not to Rand’s actual blood but rather Galad’s (half brother) and/or Elayne’s and Rand’s babies. Their death/birth at Shayol Ghul could turn out to be a pivotal moment in the Last Battle - possibly some massive emotional response from Rand which makes him make an important decision (and Elayne has to have those babies soon!).

[Mr Ares]

Bear in mind there are other prophecies relating to Rand's blood, such as Min's Viewing around him of black rocks wet with blood. So it seems literal blood spilling is required. And it has to be Rand's blood, because Rand is the Dragon, and the Dragon's blood is staining the rocks. To my mind, Galad, Luc, or Rand's babies, or the Aiel, or suchlike, while they themselves might be considered Rand's blood, in terms of their relationship to him, the red stuff in their veins is their own blood, not Rand's. So, we need literal blood, and it has to be the stuff in Rand's veins. At least, that's my way of thinking.

[babuada]

"The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost."

I still think this Crystal Throne is a binding chair. Ishy wants to compell Rand before he goes to SG, otherwise Shadow would lose.

[wotrocks]

I don't think I've ever seen this pointed out before, so:

The other day, while I was re-reading "The Great Hunt", I came across a passage (pg. 529 in pb, ch.37 - What Might Be) where Rand is useing the portal stone for the second time. In one of his other lives, Rand ends up marrying Egwene and growing old with her. Eventually they have children together. At the end of that life, Egwene dies and shortly later Fades and Trollocs from the Blight come through the Two Rivers, sweeping down in hords. Rand is eventually cut down when this happens: "And as he lay on the bank of the Taren, watching the sky seem to grow dark at noon, breath coming ever slower, he heard a voice say, I have one again, Lews Therin"

This strikes me as very similar to one of the lines in the Karaethon Cycle: "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth." The fact that the Dark One is most likely freed or nearly that, makes me think that Rand will break the seals binding him and something similar to that will happen, just don't ask me what, this is just a half formed idea that only occured to me becaus of Jordan's love for hints.

Another item I'd like to add is that the whole, "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth," seems very much connected to at least part of the Aelfinn's third answer to Rand, "To live, you must die." Once again, these aren't fully thought out thoughts, so please don't kill me for these ideas.

[Ziggdiezan]

Almighty the one eyed fools travels the halls of mourning. I think this refers to mat in the tower of Ghenjei after Noal was killed. Hence the halls of mourning.

Fallen blacksmith pride, could refer to hoppers death if you take pride in this sense of Perrins pack, or that he finally accepted leadership.

The broken wolf, I think this is What was spose to happen. IE Graendal, midnight tower, killing Perrin, broken wolf. If it Is to shake the will of men it has to be someone very important. Why not one of the big 3 themselves.

Lord of evening, refers to Mooridin I think and when it was "bring us darkness so beautiful" I think this is the dark one.

[Ziggdiezan]

Idea: broken wolf could be Logain. Broken as I'm gentled. The shadow consumes him means he gets turned by a circle. He has known death by practically dieing while gentled. And If one of the most powerful, feared but trusted chanlers suddenly started killing everyone. This could break the will of men. And then once the shadow has Logain and some other channelers, moridin will strike (next line about lord of the evening will come or something)

Logain has a viewing about glory and getting a crown. This could mean glory under the shadow, IE killing a major good character then rulling a kingdom after the last battle like in AoL, the crown.

Sorry for spelling mistakes on my phone and it's late

[Ziggdiezan]

Idea: broken wolf could be Logain. Broken as I'm gentled. The shadow consumes him means he gets turned by a circle. He has known death by practically dieing while gentled. And If one of the most powerful, feared but trusted chanlers suddenly started killing everyone. This could break the will of men. And then once the shadow has Logain and some other channelers, moridin will strike (next line about lord of the evening will come or something)

Logain has a viewing about glory and getting a crown. This could mean glory under the shadow, IE killing a major good character then rulling a kingdom after the last battle like in AoL, the crown.

Sorry for spelling mistakes on my phone and it's late

[b9anders]

I read the broken wolf as being hopper. Death has most certainly known him and he was destroyed 'by the midnight towers'. Not clear to me how his "destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." unless by 'men' it simply means 'Perrin' for whom that certainly applied.