Discuss The Prophecies

[Kahlika]

Only Perrin, Elyas and Noam has any links to wolves, do you belive the Broken Wolf refer to one of them? If so, how about the First Among Vermin, none of the characters are linked to vermin.

 

Rodel Ituralde is called and widely known as The Wolf, or The Little Wolf when people want to hassle him about his height.

 

Others do have more tenuous connections to wolves, such as Bashere's sword etc.

 

First Among Vermin is clearly Rand, it's a play on First Among Servants, LTT's position in the AoL. It's a Shadow prophecy, they don't have to say nice things, but there is some real connection to each of the identifiable people in the way they are named, Mat does have one eye, Perrin is/was a Blacksmith, the Dragon was First Among Servants (and is now first among the opposing forces of the Light, who would be considered vermin by the DO), it follows that the Broken Wolf does actually have some sort of association with Wolves in order to be identified in that way.

 

The Tower of Ghenhei is only a portal to Finnland, I was refering to the three towers in Finnland. Since the series will not visit Seanchan, I don't think those are the towers refered to in the prophecies. I still think it's obvious that Towers of Midnight refers to the towers in Finnland, it's one of the major plots in this book. That's why I expect that Midnight Towers refers to the same place.

 

You can assume all you want. There are other viable alternatives.

 

I've not seen any better suggestions on this board. That Ituralde is called the Wolf, or that the symbol of Bashere's office (General of Saldaea) is a baton with a wolfhead just isn't enough!! Jain Charin is the only one who dies in this book, who could be "consumed by the Midnight Towers". Unless you believe that it hasn't happened yet,(in which case it could be anyone), I can't think of anyone else who possibly could be the Broken Wolf

 

Large parts of the second and all of the third stanza have certainly not yet occured. They refer to Rand doing things that have not yet come to pass and place the other events in the context of this.

 

Why aren't those things enough? Ituralde can meet every piece of criteria established for the Wolf in the prophecy, so can Bashere assuming you accept the wolf link (which I think is pretty shaky), both dependant on how they fall of course, but since they're still both active they're a possibility, Jain Farstrider hasn't and can't.

 

A process of elimination is one of the best ways to draw conclusions in the WoT world. That's how people got to Graendal as Asmodean's killer, that's how they got Mesanna posing as Danelle. The best way to get an answer is to rule out who it couldn't be on the criteria that is established and look at who's left. Ituralde and Bashere are pretty much who's left.

 

Also, since you clearly haven't bothered reading any of the previous posts, Taim is not Demandred.

 

LOL, stop embarassing yourself, Taimandred has nothing to do with this discussion. I'm well aware of the fact that RJ confirmed that Taim were not Demandred 7-8 years ago.

 

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

[noonan]

Slayer is the Broken Wolf IMO: Luc lived/Isam died, ergo has known death!.

[Byzantine279]

Slayer is somehow going to end up saving the light, it was a prophecy that created him, a prophecy that stated that unless Luc? (it was one of them, and I never followed who was who) went into the blight the light would lose The Last Battle. So I suspect something Slayer has done or will do is going to end up being vital to the light's success, probably without him ever even knowing it.

 

As to the Broken Wolf, there is no reason to rule out Elyas, he certainly has a connection to wolves, and though we don't know of any "break" it is quite possible it has yet to occur, or the shadow sees something that we don't as a break.

 

There is no guarantee of any prophecy coming true, that stands just as much for the shadow as for the light, we shall see how many of them are stuck to soon enough.

[FarShainMael]

Ishydin had a long, er, involvement with the Seanchan. I suspect it was he who built the actual ToM, as a sort of monument to the FS.. there are 13 of them, in unpolished black marble, and currently they are uninhabited. And midnight is the time of deepest darkness, deepest Shadow.

 

the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

 

So Moridin (aka Death) thinks the Broken Wolf is Perrin:

 

'This Foretelling promises that Aybara will die by our hand. You will bring me the head of this wolf, Graendal.'

 

And later on, Graendal thinks of Perrin as the 'Fallen Blacksmith'.

 

But that's just their opinion..

 

Also, if the ToM do represent the FS, this puts a new light on the Seanchan legend of the Imperial family returning to the ToM to 'right that which is wrong'.. ie, help overthrow the FS.

[lordofsoup]

Ishydin had a long, er, involvement with the Seanchan. I suspect it was he who built the actual ToM, as a sort of monument to the FS.. there are 13 of them, in unpolished black marble, and currently they are uninhabited. And midnight is the time of deepest darkness, deepest Shadow.

 

the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

 

So Moridin (aka Death) thinks the Broken Wolf is Perrin:

 

'This Foretelling promises that Aybara will die by our hand. You will bring me the head of this wolf, Graendal.'

 

And later on, Graendal thinks of Perrin as the 'Fallen Blacksmith'.

 

But that's just their opinion..

 

Also, if the ToM do represent the FS, this puts a new light on the Seanchan legend of the Imperial family returning to the ToM to 'right that which is wrong'.. ie, help overthrow the FS.

 

I think Ishmael is wrong. There is no reason for the phophaies to refer to Perrin twice

[FarShainMael]

And yet we've got 'broken champion' and 'first among vermin', both of which could refer to Rand.. though I'm inclined to agree with you, they are separate. but that's prophecies for you.. ambiguous and confusing.

[Val Mickey]

My gut says the Broken Wolf is Lan. Lan has been likened to a wolf in almost every book, and by most of the main characters. I agree there's no wolf connection for him in WoTverse, neither has Moridin known him. But Lan kinda fits.

[lordofsoup]

true, but I dont see Perrin getting 2 mentions and mat only 1

[James71]

so i had a thought, in the dark prophecies it said that the dark one's prison will be as weak as the the limbs of who created it. Now we see Lanfear/cyndane saying that they are breaking her bones over and over again. Does anyone else think that they might think that since she made the bore that if they weaken her bones it will weaken the prison. I dont think prophecies work like this but i'm not moridin and he might try and make it happen.

 

Lanfear/Cyndane did not make the prison.

She was part of the team that drilled the bore to open the original exit.

So while I like your thinking there, I would have to say that it is not likely.

[Byzantine279]

I suspect that the Dream of the 13 black towers will not happen, the reason simply being with Messana having been defeated there would only be 5 standing towers (and we know for a FACT that Graendal's punishment came after Messana had fallen).

 

Moridin would not have made sense, as when he was raised above the rest far more than 6 forsaken still stood. I believe the dream may have referred to either Messana or Graendal, but both failed and the dream was prevented from coming true.

[Kahlika]

My gut says the Broken Wolf is Lan. Lan has been likened to a wolf in almost every book, and by most of the main characters. I agree there's no wolf connection for him in WoTverse, neither has Moridin known him. But Lan kinda fits.

 

Where almost every book, and by most of the main characters means exactly twice and both times by Perrin.

 

The Eye of the World - Chapter 38 Page 475 (HC); Page 566 (PB)

 

Lan standing like a wolf from Dapple's pack

 

The Dragon Reborn - Chapter 8

 

The Warder had the air about him of a wolf about to leap

 

Both said in Perrin POVs which makes it hardly surprising he'd use a wolf analogy since he uses one for a lot of things. Lan really has no specific wolf association.

 

Ideal Seek brings up no more matches associating Lan or Warder with Wolf, Wolves, Wolfish or Pack in the entire series. If you know more please link!

[Val Mickey]

Where almost every book, and by most of the main characters means exactly twice and both times by Perrin.

 

Rand in tEotW : Lan's first appearance.

That face was made from stony planes and angles, weathered but unlined despite the gray in his hair. When he moved, Rand could think of nothing but a wolf.

 

El'Nynaeve in aCoS : After drowning.

He had always seemed something of a half-tame wolf, and his eyes made him seem much less than half tame now.

This is right after the crew comments on the duckling who is trying to stuff herself in that wolf's jaw.

 

I'm sure there are others. Avi, Elayne, Egwene all liken him to a wolf at one point or the other.

[tollstrm]

She's strapped to a block as a headsman swings. Somewhere, someone is running and if they run fast enough the axe will stop.

 

It could be the one-eyed fool running through the halls of mourning. We know that Egwene is going to get in trouble again and that a Seanchan woman with a sword on her back -- Egeanin -- will save her. Mat has to be there to get the horn which will probably happen at the same time the Seanchan attack. Egwene will get captured by the Seanchan, they'll know who she is, Fortuona will come to judge her, in comes Mat and Egeanin to take Egwene's bacon off the coals...again.

[tollstrm]

Oh also. The fallen wolf will be killed by the towers of midnight. On the idea that Lan is the fallen wolf, here it is:

 

-Lan was charging into an army of trollocs in the epilogue

-Demandred is a forsaken, meets the towers of midnight requirement

-Demandred has been amassing an army and from what we know he's a good general, although probably not as good as he thinks

-Demandred, who has regretably little screen time, will be leading that trolloc army

-Min saw Nyneave weeping over a body

 

Will Lan die? Seems like it. Is it the end of Lan though? Kind of doubt it, it's the WoT anything can happen.

[Hatrel]

Towers of Midnight...I keep seeing people pushing back because the ToM's are in Seandar. However, consider the cover of the book. It shows Mat, Thom and Noal entering the ToG. Lends more weight to my arguement

 

Seriously, it would seem odd to use that image under that title if it was not connected. Why not images from Egwene's dream or an image of the actual towers with Fortuona looking down at them and then reference them in a memory sequence.

[FarShainMael]

It could be the one-eyed fool running through the halls of mourning. We know that Egwene is going to get in trouble again and that a Seanchan woman with a sword on her back -- Egeanin -- will save her. Mat has to be there to get the horn which will probably happen at the same time the Seanchan attack. Egwene will get captured by the Seanchan, they'll know who she is, Fortuona will come to judge her, in comes Mat and Egeanin to take Egwene's bacon off the coals...again.

 

It may also have been Gawyn running back from Caemlyn in time to save Egwene fromn those three Blackknives while she was helplessly asleep and Dreanwalking.

 

But I agree with you about the rest.

[James71]

Min Viewing:Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

I have been reading the descriptions of Avi's children. Then I recently saw Min's viewing of Avi's children.

 

Then it occurred to me that perhaps Min also gets pregnant at the same time as Avi. Let's say that Min dies in some manner, what would happen to her children? Wouldn't it be probable that either Elayne or Avi would raise Min's children?

 

I think the "odd" thing from Min's viewing is that the children are from different mothers. The physical descriptions of the four children certainly indicate that they look very different from each other. Some looking Aiel, others looking like wetlanders.

 

This also sort of makes sense. All three of them (Elayne, Min and Avi) would have twins.

Each set of twins would be a boy and a girl.

From the standpoint of balance, it doesn't makes sense for Avi to have 4, Elayne to have 2 and Min to have 0.

I think it is far more likely to be 2, 2 and 2 with each being a boy/girl set of twins.

 

My guess is that Avi has two children and Min has two children. They are all born at the same time. Min dies around the same time and Avi decides to raise all four children as her own because she is doing the sister-wife thing with Min. The Aiel raise all four children together after Avi dies.

[Kahlika]

Where almost every book, and by most of the main characters means exactly twice and both times by Perrin.

 

Rand in tEotW : Lan's first appearance.

That face was made from stony planes and angles, weathered but unlined despite the gray in his hair. When he moved, Rand could think of nothing but a wolf.

 

El'Nynaeve in aCoS : After drowning.

He had always seemed something of a half-tame wolf, and his eyes made him seem much less than half tame now.

This is right after the crew comments on the duckling who is trying to stuff herself in that wolf's jaw.

 

I'm sure there are others. Avi, Elayne, Egwene all liken him to a wolf at one point or the other.

 

Touché, and thank you for including the quotes.

[billegoat]

i'm amazed that there's fifteen pages full of suggestions that the fallen blacksmith AND the broken wolf do not obviously refer to perrin.

[Asgard Thorin]

I wonder if Graendal and Moridin misunderstood that prophecy of the shadow. It doesnt actually say that Perrin (the Fallen Blacksmith) will die. Instead, it says that the last days of his pride shall come. He has healed the rift between himself and the wolves, no longer blaming them and no longer fearing the wolf inside himself...Then the prophecy goes on to say The "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. Up to this point, Death has never known Perrin. I also do not recall him ever having been referred to as a Broken Wolf.

 

However, Hopper could fit this description very well. He was killed in the waking world (Death has known him), and when he died in the world of dreams, that could theoretically fit with the definition of being "consumed by the Midnight Towers".

 

Just a thought...

+1 Excellent deduction!

 

Hello,

 

Who do you think the "one eyed fool" and "first among vermin" is.

 

if the one eyed fool is Mat (rather obvious) so who shall he morn, Fortuna ?

 

Hard to see that when bouth of them is rather "safe" to live through the LB.

 

Who is "first among vermin", Becuase it is a prophecy from the dark side it must Rand.

 

If that is the case, do "lift his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destoy", indicate that this prophecy demand that Rand shall break the remaining seals and that Perrin is at risk if Rand do actuelly break the seals ?

 

Ronneby

 

My first impression was similar to above, that they misinterpreted the prophecy. His pride has ended. Thus the prophecy is fulfilled.

 

Yes, Mat is the one-eyed fool. That would leave Rand to be the "first among vermin". Nice how the shadow tries to insult those that will beat them.

 

The "lift his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" to me indicated that he would break the seals as we have known for some time.

 

Slayer called Perrin the "fallen Blacksmith".

 

I don't know if we can be certain who the "broken Wolf" is supposed to be. There does not seem to be enough information, but I don't think if refers to Hopper.

The One-Eyed-Fool, I think is Mat. The Fallen Blacksmith may be a reference to Perrin, and I think the First-Among-Vermin is Padan Fain.

The Broken Wolf, however, is Jain Farstrider. Midnight Towers refers to the black dragonscale tiling of the three towers inside the Tower of Ghenjei. 'The one whom Death has known' was a reference to Moridin ergo Ishamael, who captured Farstrider and turned him into a puppet, using him to spread the rumor of his plan to destroy the Eye of the World (among other things no doubt, rather like Hurin who was captured by Morgoth in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears in the Silmarillion). The death of Jain Farstrider will ring throughout the world causing fear and gnashing of teeth or whatever the dark prophecy said. I don't know if there were any references to Farstrider having been a blacksmith or being called a wolf, but he was certainly broken, like Hurin, and then let go to cause a little more mischief before he died, before he could break free of the evil that held him in thrall. It's possible Fallen Blacksmith was a reference to Farstrider as well?

 

Oh, one more thing. If LB is right and the Towers of Egwene's dream were the Forsaken (and though Shadar Haran punished Graendal severely, if you read it right, his reference to her remembering what was going to happen next could be a promise not to kill her; remember, Mesaana's failure to go to Shadar Logoth would have been punished by death at any other time) then we have six Forsaken left: Moridin, Demandred, Moghedien, Cyndane, Graendal(probably envying Moghedien and Cyndane)and-dare I hope(kettledrums please)-BelTaim(I really do hope this! I can see Pevara escaping and casually mentioning that seal as she tells of far more important things, and Nynaeve-or Rand-having a What-did-you-say?-moment.) Oh, and I think it was Graendal that clled him Fallen Blacksmith

[Randommer]

I wonder if Graendal and Moridin misunderstood that prophecy of the shadow. It doesnt actually say that Perrin (the Fallen Blacksmith) will die. Instead, it says that the last days of his pride shall come. He has healed the rift between himself and the wolves, no longer blaming them and no longer fearing the wolf inside himself...Then the prophecy goes on to say The "Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known" shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. Up to this point, Death has never known Perrin. I also do not recall him ever having been referred to as a Broken Wolf.

 

Personally, I don't think that Graendal and Moridin misunderstood the prophecy; I think they might have been looking at a different prophecy altogether. They seemed pretty certain about what they were reading, and the bit we've seen just seems too ambiguous to fit.

 

So anyway, I've come up with a horrible prophecy-based theory...

I made the case a few pages ago for the Broken Wolf being Bashere, but basically the crux of it was that Bashere's sigil is a wolf and Min had those ominous viewings about something very bad happening if Bashere ever died or turned against Rand.

 

Now what is one of the few things that could ever cause Bashere to be 'broken', turn to the Shadow or sacrafice himself? If something happened to Faile.

 

And if Perrin is the Fallen Blacksmith, what is the one thing that could be described as his pride more than any other? Faile. (I don't agree that the prophecy is referencing his accepting his role as leader or his wolfish elements - that just seems like too positive a development to be in the prophecies of the shadow.)

 

And what could make Perrin put himself on the line and give Graendal the chance to fulfill that prophecy she seemed so sure of? Faile.

 

Basically I think it's quite possible that Perrin, Faile and Bashere are all gonners... I am probably wrong, though.

[MyKillK]

My gut says the Broken Wolf is Lan. Lan has been likened to a wolf in almost every book, and by most of the main characters. I agree there's no wolf connection for him in WoTverse, neither has Moridin known him. But Lan kinda fits.

 

I'm going with Slayer. I remember Perrin saying "You are not a wolf!" to Slayer and he seemed to imply that maybe he indeed was. He has become broken, maybe he hates his wolf side and that is why he lives to hunt them? Would explain how he is in the wolf dream to begin with, as well. Lan and him are related however, so maybe there is some truth to Lan being a wolf brother as well.

[Mr Ares]

However, consider the cover of the book. It shows Mat, Thom and Noal entering the ToG. Lends more weight to my arguement

My cover doesn't. How does the existence of foreign (decent) covers affect your argument?

 

Min Viewing:Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

I have been reading the descriptions of Avi's children. Then I recently saw Min's viewing of Avi's children.

 

Then it occurred to me that perhaps Min also gets pregnant at the same time as Avi. Let's say that Min dies in some manner, what would happen to her children? Wouldn't it be probable that either Elayne or Avi would raise Min's children?

 

I think the "odd" thing from Min's viewing is that the children are from different mothers. The physical descriptions of the four children certainly indicate that they look very different from each other. Some looking Aiel, others looking like wetlanders.

...You think that's more odd than permanently holding the Source?

 

As many have suggested that the Death in the one that death has known bit is Moridin, I suggest that further to that, "know" is meant in the biblical sense. Yes, I predict than in the last book, Perrin is going to shack up with Moridin.

[James71]

 

Min Viewing:Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

 

...You think that's more odd than permanently holding the Source?

 

 

The "odd" part is clearly referencing "Four of them at once!".

 

Avi had four of Rand's babies at the same time, but something odd about it.

It doesn't say that Avi gave birth to them all. Only that she had four of Rand's babies. Min's children would qualify because they are from Rand. So if Min had twins also at the same time as Avi, but Min died, then it would fit. The physical descriptions for the children are so different that makes it even more likely.

 

And for me it just doesn't make sense for Avi to have 4 kids, Elayne to have 2 kids and Min to have 0 kids.

It is far more likely that they each have 2 kids. To make it even more balanced, I am betting that they each have twins with a boy/girl paid.

 

Based on Avi's future viewing and Min's viewings, there are a total of six Rand children.

We know that Elayne is having a boy and girl.

We know from Avi's viewings that there will be 4 kids (2 boys and 2 girls).

 

It just fits for me based on the hints and what I have come to expect from Jordan. Just my opinion.

[dwn]

In ToM, Perrin admitted to himself that he would never again be a simple blacksmith, even abandoning his smithing hammer in the process. This coincided with his acceptance of his wolf nature. That supports the argument that both 'Fallen Blacksmith' and 'Broken Wolf' refer to Perrin. Once the Fallen Blacksmith's pride has ended he becomes the Broken Wolf.

 

As for 'the one whom Death has known', it could simply refer to Ishamael's dream invasions in TEotW. That interpretation does satisfy the wording of the prophecy.

 

Incidentally, some etymology surrounding 'Beowulf' (who just happened to deal with Grendel) interprets it as 'Thor-Wolf'.

 

-- dwn