The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[FarShainMael]

It's probably bad form to step in here, but might I suggest we let this one go? Messiest did apologize for stepping over the line in terms of loaded language. I agree the comments were problematic, but they were originally motivated by a concern for the actual writing of the rest of WoT, and the topic has been dropped.

 

FarShainMael, I can understand your frustration, but (please trust me here) suggesting that a non-religious person doesn't care about "murder, theft, and lying" because of their personal beliefs is not going to keep the peace. The issue of whether Brandon's faith will enter his writing to color his characterizations and narrative in WoT has been raised (and it's a valid question,) addressed, and was put to bed several pages ago. Let's keep talking about the writing.

 

Agreed. My annoyance with misrepresentation of religion, specifically in this case the nature of sin, does get to me occasionally. I was reading through this thread for the first time in a while, did not see any followup to Messiest's comments and felt I should respond. I'll calm down and re-read the thread more slowly.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You are thinking like a Noble. Court politics in the Seanchan are dangerous, certainly. However, Rand's insight is that most people are just peasants. They don't have to worry about trying to gain power and influence without stepping too far and getting assassinated. From their perspective, Seanchan rule just means that the tax man changes uniform. Both Randland nobles and the Blood rule by force, but the Seanchan do a better job of it by and large, and they use their power to make the peasants better off than their Randland counterparts.

 

Remember, those ruled by fascists were happy too, as long as they weren't members of one of the "undesirable" groups like gypsies, jews, those with physical or mental defects, etc. Mussolini was loved because he made the trains run on time, not for his ( non-existent ) humanitarian views. There were those who were quite happy under both Hitler and Stalin. All of these dictators imposed order. None of them nor the nations they led had or practiced the slightest morality.

 

So, what's better, an orderly society or a moral one? ( moral not merely orthodox, orthodoxy can be quite immoral )

[Caius Callus]

As long as you don´t try to `overstep your boundaries´, let´s say try to get into a higher position in their system. Chodorkowskij, anyone?

I generally agree, but this is a rather bad example. Khodorkovskij (or however it's spelled in roman letters) was just as much an oligarchic crook as everyone else around him.

 

On the issue of Sanderson and religiosity etc, I don't see any more or different religious views propagated than in what Jordan wrote. But frankly I couldn't care less about the religious views; It's the general political views I tend to notice and object to when I do.

[capuga]

You are thinking like a Noble. Court politics in the Seanchan are dangerous, certainly. However, Rand's insight is that most people are just peasants. They don't have to worry about trying to gain power and influence without stepping too far and getting assassinated. From their perspective, Seanchan rule just means that the tax man changes uniform. Both Randland nobles and the Blood rule by force, but the Seanchan do a better job of it by and large, and they use their power to make the peasants better off than their Randland counterparts.

 

Remember, those ruled by fascists were happy too, as long as they weren't members of one of the "undesirable" groups like gypsies, jews, those with physical or mental defects, etc. Mussolini was loved because he made the trains run on time, not for his ( non-existent ) humanitarian views. There were those who were quite happy under both Hitler and Stalin. All of these dictators imposed order. None of them nor the nations they led had or practiced the slightest morality.

 

So, what's better, an orderly society or a moral one? ( moral not merely orthodox, orthodoxy can be quite immoral )

 

To add another point to the problem with the Seanchan - By chaining the channelers and using them as nothing more than weapons and menial labor they are depriving society of a great amount of progress. Look at how advanced the AOL was - schools, technology, healing, etc. All of these things were done with at least a fair amount of help from the OP and Aes Sedai. The damane will never be allowed to reach this level of progress and the world as a whole will suffer for it.

[Caius Callus]

To add another point to the problem with the Seanchan - By chaining the channelers and using them as nothing more than weapons and menial labor they are depriving society of a great amount of progress. Look at how advanced the AOL was - schools, technology, healing, etc. All of these things were done with at least a fair amount of help from the OP and Aes Sedai. The damane will never be allowed to reach this level of progress and the world as a whole will suffer for it.

Isn't this the wrong thread?

But on your subject, what's wrong with imperial collapse once in a while? It makes history and stories so much more interesting.

[capuga]

To add another point to the problem with the Seanchan - By chaining the channelers and using them as nothing more than weapons and menial labor they are depriving society of a great amount of progress. Look at how advanced the AOL was - schools, technology, healing, etc. All of these things were done with at least a fair amount of help from the OP and Aes Sedai. The damane will never be allowed to reach this level of progress and the world as a whole will suffer for it.

Isn't this the wrong thread?

But on your subject, what's wrong with imperial collapse once in a while? It makes history and stories so much more interesting.

 

Perhaps, but since this thread has seemed to devolve into a Seanchan argument I thought I would go ahead and add to it.

[didymos]

Personally, I had more issue with the rather large amount of slapstick humor that magically appeared, mostly centered around Mat. The ridiculous bit where he made up multiple pages of backstory for the raid on Trustair, all of the bits where Talemanes was far too blatantly laughing at Mat, and his sudden fascination with lace and that pink scarf seemed far too out of place.

 

Talmanes never once laughs blatantly at Mat. Ever. That was sort of the whole point. The guy barely even smiles. Mat just knows how to read him much better now. As for the lace: RJ started that back in WH by mentioning that Mat did really mind the lace. And the pink scarf thing was supposed to be out of place. Even Mat thought so. It was simply a momentary, aberrant impulse that served as a call-back to the Tylin thing. Though I can understand how someone might want to pretend that that whole situation hadn't happened.

 

As far as the "slapstick" goes: yeah, that was a bit overdone with the backstories, but it wasn't slapstick, which is almost completely based in physical (and physically violent) comedy. "Farce" is a more accurate label for that scene.

[WhiteJoker]

Personally, I had more issue with the rather large amount of slapstick humor that magically appeared, mostly centered around Mat. The ridiculous bit where he made up multiple pages of backstory for the raid on Trustair, all of the bits where Talemanes was far too blatantly laughing at Mat, and his sudden fascination with lace and that pink scarf seemed far too out of place.

 

Talmanes never once laughs blatantly at Mat. Ever. That was sort of the whole point. The guy barely even smiles. Mat just knows how to read him much better now. As for the lace: RJ started that back in WH by mentioning that Mat did really mind the lace. And the pink scarf thing was supposed to be out of place. Even Mat thought so. It was simply a momentary, aberrant impulse that served as a call-back to the Tylin thing. Though I can understand how someone might want to pretend that that whole situation hadn't happened.

 

As far as the "slapstick" goes: yeah, that was a bit overdone with the backstories, but it wasn't slapstick, which is almost completely based in physical (and physically violent) comedy. "Farce" is a more accurate label for that scene.

I meant comparatively considering previously we'd have been lucky if he even twitched an eye at some of the things Mat does; now he reacts to practically everything Mat does. That, in his way, is pretty much laughing blatantly. Talmanes is noted prior to these books are being exceptionally hard to get a reaction out of and now he reacts far too easily. For a man with that reputation, to be reacting as he is now, he may as well be laughing aloud as that would be the equivalent in any other character. In many respects, I would say it feels too much like BS had merged Talmanes' character with Nalesean's since the times which Talmanes reacts to Mat corresponds with where Nalesean would usually throw in a witty remark; the manner in which Mat replies to them also corresponds with his prior behaviour around Nalesean.

 

The Talmanes we have now no longer feels like the Talmanes we've been shown previously, and there's isn't any development to show how he went from what we were previously shown to what we have now. I could buy Mandevwin's simplicity in buying into Mat's game because we've been shown that he is, ultimately, a bit simple, but we haven't had that indication of Talmanes. What we had from Talmanes to show that he was laughing at Mat before was the fact that he was largely stoic and overly exaggerated in his unflappability; we didn't have constant twitching lips and smirking eyes, nor did we have him egging Mat on. Those were all things Nalesean did.

 

As for the lace, yes, he minded it to the point where he was sneaking his own clothes away so he could cut the lace off, now he's going out of his way to dress up in adornment and paying attention to the fashion sense of those around him. I could understand if when he went to find another scarf it was mentioned that he saw one in pink and briefly imagined himself wearing it or remembering Tylin from it, but to considering buying it, even slightly, is out of character. The Mat we've been shown with regards to those clothes and colour choices was violently against them and had only recently began to accept things like minor embroidery. In many respects his clothing mentality was like Rand's back in tGH yet unlike Rand, and unlike his previous characterizations, he's skipped past a few steps. As somebody from the camp of "he doth protest too much" and having altered my own sense of fashion, the leap which Mat went from feels too forced. In a way, it would feel more natural if he continued to resist his wardrobe choices along with his new found noble title because the two correspond with one another. Instead he accepts one while fighting the other.

 

Your semantic argument is noted.

[Kahlika]

As far as the "slapstick" goes: yeah, that was a bit overdone with the backstories, but it wasn't slapstick, which is almost completely based in physical (and physically violent) comedy. "Farce" is a more accurate label for that scene.

 

The scene with the rabbit was slapstick.

[EvilSocrates]

You are thinking like a Noble. Court politics in the Seanchan are dangerous, certainly. However, Rand's insight is that most people are just peasants. They don't have to worry about trying to gain power and influence without stepping too far and getting assassinated. From their perspective, Seanchan rule just means that the tax man changes uniform. Both Randland nobles and the Blood rule by force, but the Seanchan do a better job of it by and large, and they use their power to make the peasants better off than their Randland counterparts.

 

Remember, those ruled by fascists were happy too, as long as they weren't members of one of the "undesirable" groups like gypsies, jews, those with physical or mental defects, etc. Mussolini was loved because he made the trains run on time, not for his ( non-existent ) humanitarian views. There were those who were quite happy under both Hitler and Stalin. All of these dictators imposed order. None of them nor the nations they led had or practiced the slightest morality.

 

So, what's better, an orderly society or a moral one? ( moral not merely orthodox, orthodoxy can be quite immoral )

 

First of all, Mussolini did NOT make the trains run on time. It's a total myth that the fascist regimes that arose around WWII were effective at governing. Second of all, way to prove Godwin's law. To compare Seanchan with fascist Italy or the Nazis is absurd.

 

Second of all, you seem to be under the impression that the choice is between representative democracy and Seanchan Empire. This is false. The other Randland kingdoms are totalitarian regimes where the Monarch's word is Law (OK in Tear it is a High Lord or whatever, but the principle applies). Indeed, Seanchan rule is, despite being culturally more alien to us than, say, Andor, more liberal in some ways. In Randland, you are born to nobility. In Seanchan, they enforce a meritocracy whereby anyone (and certainly family lines)can become of the Blood. Perhaps this meritocracy is part of the reason they seem to be much more effective rulers. I think people are just more comfortable looking at kingdoms that remind them of Arthurian England than ones that don't resonate culturally with them them. Seanchan feels like Ancient China in a way, to me anyhow. Ancient China > Medieval Europe, despite the apparently strict social norms. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress. I guess that happened with Elayne anyhow, but thats mostly because of his connection to Rand and the fact that he probably could have deposed Elayne if he had wanted to anyhow.

 

Finally everyone is so hung up on Damane. Personally, I think the practice is misguided, but it is certainly understandable. The problem of men and women who can channel must be dealt with. In every culture being a man who can channel gets you a death sentence. But women are a problem too. Look at every other culture other than the Seanchan. Who rules it? In each case, including Shara, it's female channelers--which is a problem if, again, you want a meritocracy. The Seanchan are simply correct that channelers will seize power, and need to be controlled. Granted I think they are obsessed with it, but their obsession could change over time. I don't see why they couldn't live next to a culture ruled by Aes Sedai, once they finally got used to it (and they did apparently keep the Dragon's Peace). After all, their obsession, IFRC, stems from the particularly brutal wizard queens they had to conquer over in the island of Seanchan. It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind. This isn't to say that having well cared for slaves is acceptable, but it is to say that the Seanchan are not cruel. Personally, if I had a choice of living in Seanchan or Randland kingdoms, I'd take Seanchan every time, even though I risk being a channeler or having a daughter who ends up damane.

[didymos]

As far as the "slapstick" goes: yeah, that was a bit overdone with the backstories, but it wasn't slapstick, which is almost completely based in physical (and physically violent) comedy. "Farce" is a more accurate label for that scene.

 

The scene with the rabbit was slapstick.

 

Uh, no. Not that either. An implied pun, yes (think "blind luck"). Slapstick, no. The clowns in Valan Luca's show beating each other with pig-bladders? That's slapstick. So was Nynaeve and Siuan going at each other in tFoh, after Nynaeve's very trying day in Salidar.

[gary0044187]

This isn't to say that having well cared for slaves is acceptable, but it is to say that the Seanchan are not cruel.

I disagree with your comment that they are not cruel. In the scene where the Seanchan learned of the gateways, Fortuona was in a room where they broke the damane, it soothed her. Breaking the human spirit is cruel no matter how you put it. The rest of your argument is good, but this little bit is false. I expect, no matter what that they will move away from leashing their channelers, but I do not expect it overnight.

[David Selig]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

[NetSlider]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

 

Completely agree with everything you have to say. Just want to add that Seanchen do have their sh*t together, but than so did Nazi Germany - fascism kind of comes with that territory - order and complete obedience to the motherland and the dear leader.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Isn't this the wrong thread?

But on your subject, what's wrong with imperial collapse once in a while? It makes history and stories so much more interesting.

 

Fiction has to be believable. In order to be believable, it has to be recognizable. To be recognized it must contain elements of reality. The reality of Imperial collapse is that lots and lots of real people suffer and die.

 

Some folks might find that interesting to read about but it certainly is not interesting or fun or anything else positive to live, and that's what's wrong with Imperial collapse.

[Jack Shaftoe]

The Seanchan are a meritocracy of the sharp knives, it seems. If someone from the Blood is really incompetent, they get assassinated by a competitor or executed by the Empress. Twisted, but it works for them. People like Weiramon probably won't survive for long in a Seanchan court.

 

First of all, Mussolini did NOT make the trains run on time. It's a total myth that the fascist regimes that arose around WWII were effective at governing. Second of all, way to prove Godwin's law. To compare Seanchan with fascist Italy or the Nazis is absurd.

 

I agree. Might as well compare the Aiel with Ku Klux Klan because of their hatred of "treekillers".

 

Back to the topic - Sanderson made the characters too reasonable? Come on, he just brought them back (finally!) to the land of normal people who don't hide everything from their friends for no reason other than the plot saying so. If all the good guys had continued with the crazy secret keeping, the series would have to be like 20 volumes long. For instance Mat wouldn't have told Elayne about the gholam and the two would have chased each other around the world for five more books.

[EvilSocrates]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

 

Completely agree with everything you have to say. Just want to add that Seanchen do have their sh*t together, but than so did Nazi Germany - fascism kind of comes with that territory - order and complete obedience to the motherland and the dear leader.

 

Again, quit the Nazi comparisons. The Seanchan are nothing like the Nazis. At all. And the Nazis, again, did not have their stuff together. Name an effective fascist government and I'll give you a dollar. It has never worked. Ever.

 

I agree that the Seanchan have a rigid caste system. My point is that I don't see how that makes them worse than Tear. The division between commoner and noble is stark in all WoT societies. At least among the Seanchan you can get your family into the Blood through generations of effort. As an aside, I don't think the existence of slavery instantly invalidates a culture. And neither do you, unless you think pretty much every culture before before modern times was deplorable. Besides, a da'colve aren't like plantation slaves or something equally horrendous. They are just basically servants. I still think people don't like them because they are Ancient China instead of Middle England, and they have rigid social norms with which westerners are uncomfortable. "Sure Nobles make the peasants work the grain and have a vast system of oppression and rule through heredity and violence, but at least you don't have to lower your eyes when they walk by! You just have to sat "Mi'Lord" or bow or tip your hat. Which is different. Somehow..." I'm unconvinced.

 

Damane again: I understand people don't like damane. I don't like damane either. I understand damane though. I really think that are a somewhat reasonable response to a real problem. Nobody has a problem with killing men who can channel (Gentling turns out to be the same thing in practice). Women who can channel cause just as much trouble for society most of the time, because they rule as sorceress queens. The Aes Sedai at least do it indirectly, but they are still in charge. Shara is run by Channelers too. I think some accommodation can be made that is better than damane, don't get me wrong. But I prefer damane to killing all the women channelers or stilling them (again, almost the same). If you are going to force them into a position where they can never have power or be real citizens, which the Seanchan feel compelled to do because of the real threat they pose, you should at least treat them well. You think it is cruel to break their spirit; I think it is cruel not to. Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

[putts]

People mature. You can't have dynamic characters and static characteristics ... especially when those characteristics are based on a maturity level. When we began this journey with RJ, most of the characters were in the teens ... or dealing with people in teens. Both scenarios can cause people to be erratic. If you consider the Aes Sedai (the people who should be in control of themselves at all times) ... how could they be complacent in the beginning? They're used to running everything and they simply can't with Rand, Mat and Perrin.

 

 

In the beginning of this story, the world was a nice, calm lake. People could wade their way through it without having to give at any point. By book 13, the world is a powerful whirpool. The change wasn't instantaneous. The lake slowly gathered speed and current. While it was gaining that speed, the characters still held on ... never wanting to give in to the current. But, in the end, they had to give in. You can't fight against something that strong and expect to hold your position.

[NetSlider]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

 

Completely agree with everything you have to say. Just want to add that Seanchen do have their sh*t together, but than so did Nazi Germany - fascism kind of comes with that territory - order and complete obedience to the motherland and the dear leader.

 

Again, quit the Nazi comparisons. The Seanchan are nothing like the Nazis. At all. And the Nazis, again, did not have their stuff together. Name an effective fascist government and I'll give you a dollar. It has never worked. Ever.

 

I agree that the Seanchan have a rigid caste system. My point is that I don't see how that makes them worse than Tear. The division between commoner and noble is stark in all WoT societies. At least among the Seanchan you can get your family into the Blood through generations of effort. As an aside, I don't think the existence of slavery instantly invalidates a culture. And neither do you, unless you think pretty much every culture before before modern times was deplorable. Besides, a da'colve aren't like plantation slaves or something equally horrendous. They are just basically servants. I still think people don't like them because they are Ancient China instead of Middle England, and they have rigid social norms with which westerners are uncomfortable. "Sure Nobles make the peasants work the grain and have a vast system of oppression and rule through heredity and violence, but at least you don't have to lower your eyes when they walk by! You just have to sat "Mi'Lord" or bow or tip your hat. Which is different. Somehow..." I'm unconvinced.

 

Damane again: I understand people don't like damane. I don't like damane either. I understand damane though. I really think that are a somewhat reasonable response to a real problem. Nobody has a problem with killing men who can channel (Gentling turns out to be the same thing in practice). Women who can channel cause just as much trouble for society most of the time, because they rule as sorceress queens. The Aes Sedai at least do it indirectly, but they are still in charge. Shara is run by Channelers too. I think some accommodation can be made that is better than damane, don't get me wrong. But I prefer damane to killing all the women channelers or stilling them (again, almost the same). If you are going to force them into a position where they can never have power or be real citizens, which the Seanchan feel compelled to do because of the real threat they pose, you should at least treat them well. You think it is cruel to break their spirit; I think it is cruel not to. Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

 

Are you kidding me? Nazis came to power and rebuild completely shattered economy from ground up in like what...12 years. remember 1936 Olympics. This is one of the characteristics of a fascist regime - high productivity and low crime (if you disregard the crimes committed by the state that is) and no individual freedom (though I don't think as bad and Stalinism did). I'm not saying that Nazis are great example of society but it is a great example of crazy, totalitarian discipline system of governance. Which is exactly what Seanchen are. I guess you can also compare them to feudal Japan system, but that leads us to a similar direction of ruler/god. So yes, I'll say it again, Seanchen are Nazis and fascist (with sprinkle of feudal Japan). Don't confuse atrocities committed by some f*&ckhead HItler and people that followed him with sociological system of cast.

[gary0044187]

Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

That is the whole point of what I was saying, both are cruel. The broken damane had to be broken before she accepts her situation. Maybe a Seanchan one will find it slightly easier when confronted with the monster her society claims she will become if she does not accept the breaking but no matter how much she thinks Marath'damane need to be leashed, she will still at first resist that she IS a marath'damane and needs to be broken. There is nothing about the breaking of a person that is not cruel.

 

Now, I agree that the leashes are a reasonable response to a threat. I would say it is arguable whether it is better than Whitecloaks trying to kill every channeler they find.

[EvilSocrates]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

 

Completely agree with everything you have to say. Just want to add that Seanchen do have their sh*t together, but than so did Nazi Germany - fascism kind of comes with that territory - order and complete obedience to the motherland and the dear leader.

 

Again, quit the Nazi comparisons. The Seanchan are nothing like the Nazis. At all. And the Nazis, again, did not have their stuff together. Name an effective fascist government and I'll give you a dollar. It has never worked. Ever.

 

I agree that the Seanchan have a rigid caste system. My point is that I don't see how that makes them worse than Tear. The division between commoner and noble is stark in all WoT societies. At least among the Seanchan you can get your family into the Blood through generations of effort. As an aside, I don't think the existence of slavery instantly invalidates a culture. And neither do you, unless you think pretty much every culture before before modern times was deplorable. Besides, a da'colve aren't like plantation slaves or something equally horrendous. They are just basically servants. I still think people don't like them because they are Ancient China instead of Middle England, and they have rigid social norms with which westerners are uncomfortable. "Sure Nobles make the peasants work the grain and have a vast system of oppression and rule through heredity and violence, but at least you don't have to lower your eyes when they walk by! You just have to sat "Mi'Lord" or bow or tip your hat. Which is different. Somehow..." I'm unconvinced.

 

Damane again: I understand people don't like damane. I don't like damane either. I understand damane though. I really think that are a somewhat reasonable response to a real problem. Nobody has a problem with killing men who can channel (Gentling turns out to be the same thing in practice). Women who can channel cause just as much trouble for society most of the time, because they rule as sorceress queens. The Aes Sedai at least do it indirectly, but they are still in charge. Shara is run by Channelers too. I think some accommodation can be made that is better than damane, don't get me wrong. But I prefer damane to killing all the women channelers or stilling them (again, almost the same). If you are going to force them into a position where they can never have power or be real citizens, which the Seanchan feel compelled to do because of the real threat they pose, you should at least treat them well. You think it is cruel to break their spirit; I think it is cruel not to. Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

 

Are you kidding me? Nazis came to power and rebuild completely shattered economy from ground up in like what...12 years. remember 1936 Olympics. This is one of the characteristics of a fascist regime - high productivity and low crime (if you disregard the crimes committed by the state that is) and no individual freedom (though I don't think as bad and Stalinism did). I'm not saying that Nazis are great example of society but it is a great example of crazy, totalitarian discipline system of governance. Which is exactly what Seanchen are. I guess you can also compare them to feudal Japan system, but that leads us to a similar direction of ruler/god. So yes, I'll say it again, Seanchen are Nazis and fascist (with sprinkle of feudal Japan). Don't confuse atrocities committed by some f*&ckhead HItler and people that followed him with sociological system of cast.

 

The economic recovery was incidental to, not because, of the choice of fascism as a government. Any type of leader, fascist or not, could look at the conditions of Germany and decide that massive infrastructure and heavy industry development might just reduce unemployment. Stalin did the same thing, and he was far left, not far right. Literally everything else the Nazi's did was completely foolish. "Hey let's kill of our banking class and theoretical physicists, waste money on stupid slave labor, and attack the whole world!" They very "efficiently" reduced Germany to rubble through their brilliant leadership. But arguing about whether the Nazis were effective is super off topic, so I'll stop there.

 

Back to our other off topic: Seanchan is neither Japan nor Germany. It is Ancient China, with some Egypt and Ottoman Empire thrown in. China. Divine Emperor, concept of "Face," bureaucratic castes. The whole thing.

 

Back to the OP topic: How could BS have possibly moved this series to conclusion if the characters didn't work together at least a LITTLE more? If it makes detractors feel better, Egwene is still working against Rand in secret, and Rand is using that fact to his own advantage without her knowledge.

[NetSlider]

Seanchan is a meritocracy? How about the fact that everyone is supposed to grovel and lie down in front of those who were lucky enough to be born of the Blood? Yes, in some rare cases people get raised into the Blood for their achievements (which also happen in the other Randland countries, BTW, even though less often), but the vast majority of the Blood are hereditary nobles whose only merit for the high position in society is their lucky birth.

 

How about the fact that if you are born a slave, you and your family remain slaves forever? And that alot of those are brainwashed, used as human decoration and punished brutally for minor infraction like looking at their master?

 

. If Perrin had been in Seanchan lands, he would not have been threatened with execution, he would have been raised to a position of prominence and power, assuming he remained loyal tot he Empress.

If Perrin was in Seanchan, he'd have been executed in some horrific way for daring to declare himself a noble without the approval of the Empress.

 

It's worth noting that the damane don't seem to mind.

They've been brutally brainwashed for years and treated like objects. This alone is enough to make the Seanchan a deplorable culture.

 

Completely agree with everything you have to say. Just want to add that Seanchen do have their sh*t together, but than so did Nazi Germany - fascism kind of comes with that territory - order and complete obedience to the motherland and the dear leader.

 

Again, quit the Nazi comparisons. The Seanchan are nothing like the Nazis. At all. And the Nazis, again, did not have their stuff together. Name an effective fascist government and I'll give you a dollar. It has never worked. Ever.

 

I agree that the Seanchan have a rigid caste system. My point is that I don't see how that makes them worse than Tear. The division between commoner and noble is stark in all WoT societies. At least among the Seanchan you can get your family into the Blood through generations of effort. As an aside, I don't think the existence of slavery instantly invalidates a culture. And neither do you, unless you think pretty much every culture before before modern times was deplorable. Besides, a da'colve aren't like plantation slaves or something equally horrendous. They are just basically servants. I still think people don't like them because they are Ancient China instead of Middle England, and they have rigid social norms with which westerners are uncomfortable. "Sure Nobles make the peasants work the grain and have a vast system of oppression and rule through heredity and violence, but at least you don't have to lower your eyes when they walk by! You just have to sat "Mi'Lord" or bow or tip your hat. Which is different. Somehow..." I'm unconvinced.

 

Damane again: I understand people don't like damane. I don't like damane either. I understand damane though. I really think that are a somewhat reasonable response to a real problem. Nobody has a problem with killing men who can channel (Gentling turns out to be the same thing in practice). Women who can channel cause just as much trouble for society most of the time, because they rule as sorceress queens. The Aes Sedai at least do it indirectly, but they are still in charge. Shara is run by Channelers too. I think some accommodation can be made that is better than damane, don't get me wrong. But I prefer damane to killing all the women channelers or stilling them (again, almost the same). If you are going to force them into a position where they can never have power or be real citizens, which the Seanchan feel compelled to do because of the real threat they pose, you should at least treat them well. You think it is cruel to break their spirit; I think it is cruel not to. Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

 

Are you kidding me? Nazis came to power and rebuild completely shattered economy from ground up in like what...12 years. remember 1936 Olympics. This is one of the characteristics of a fascist regime - high productivity and low crime (if you disregard the crimes committed by the state that is) and no individual freedom (though I don't think as bad and Stalinism did). I'm not saying that Nazis are great example of society but it is a great example of crazy, totalitarian discipline system of governance. Which is exactly what Seanchen are. I guess you can also compare them to feudal Japan system, but that leads us to a similar direction of ruler/god. So yes, I'll say it again, Seanchen are Nazis and fascist (with sprinkle of feudal Japan). Don't confuse atrocities committed by some f*&ckhead HItler and people that followed him with sociological system of cast.

 

The economic recovery was incidental to, not because, of the choice of fascism as a government. Any type of leader, fascist or not, could look at the conditions of Germany and decide that massive infrastructure and heavy industry development might just reduce unemployment. Stalin did the same thing, and he was far left, not far right. Literally everything else the Nazi's did was completely foolish. "Hey let's kill of our banking class and theoretical physicists, waste money on stupid slave labor, and attack the whole world!" They very "efficiently" reduced Germany to rubble through their brilliant leadership. But arguing about whether the Nazis were effective is super off topic, so I'll stop there.

 

Back to our other off topic: Seanchan is neither Japan nor Germany. It is Ancient China, with some Egypt and Ottoman Empire thrown in. China. Divine Emperor, concept of "Face," bureaucratic castes. The whole thing.

 

Back to the OP topic: How could BS have possibly moved this series to conclusion if the characters didn't work together at least a LITTLE more? If it makes detractors feel better, Egwene is still working against Rand in secret, and Rand is using that fact to his own advantage without her knowledge.

 

First, incidental is not the word I would use. They came in during hyperinflation and started from ground up, nothing incidental about it. Stalin was successful? Right, that's why he was caught with his pants around his ankles when Nazis finally attacked. I'm from that part of the world and trust me, "Stalin's might" is a freaking myth at best. He had to send people to Siberia to work for free just to support his economy - that's how successful he was. The industrial complex in Russia was at best on an average side if not below average.

 

Did Hitler was a genocidal f*&khead? Absolutely!!! But the fascist regime worked for those people at that period of time. The price that people paid is another story, but it included personal freedom, freedom of speech, and many many others. Just like Seanchen do. Now, I'm not saying that other countries in Randland are better, but Seanchen are just an empire that really streamlined it. They are the example of efficiency, low crime, devotion to the empire and its leader, and overall nationalism - that smells a lot like fascism. Does it automatically makes them evil - no. I tend to like Seanchen for most part (though the whole Avi's vision kind of puts my hair up, but time will show).

 

Your point about Rand using Egwene - I'm with you on that. A very nice move on his part and I'm looking forward to her reaction once she finds out. I have a feeling AS will not like to be used as much as they like using.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

That is the whole point of what I was saying, both are cruel. The broken damane had to be broken before she accepts her situation. Maybe a Seanchan one will find it slightly easier when confronted with the monster her society claims she will become if she does not accept the breaking but no matter how much she thinks Marath'damane need to be leashed, she will still at first resist that she IS a marath'damane and needs to be broken. There is nothing about the breaking of a person that is not cruel.

 

Now, I agree that the leashes are a reasonable response to a threat. I would say it is arguable whether it is better than Whitecloaks trying to kill every channeler they find.

 

Sadly, the Whitecloaks are better. Death comes to everyone. It's a natural occurrence. Slavery does not come to everyone. It's unnatural and abhorrent and not to be wished on anyone.

 

The really nasty part of this series is that the author had a real problem killing anybody, but he had no problem whatsoever with physical abuse, psychological abuse, rape and torture.

 

No woman, not even fictional Forsaken ones deserves rape. Far better an honest death.

[NetSlider]

Who is happier and better off, a broken damane who loves and accepts her masters and her place, or a newly chained Aes Sedai, who is filled with horror and regret and loss and pain?

That is the whole point of what I was saying, both are cruel. The broken damane had to be broken before she accepts her situation. Maybe a Seanchan one will find it slightly easier when confronted with the monster her society claims she will become if she does not accept the breaking but no matter how much she thinks Marath'damane need to be leashed, she will still at first resist that she IS a marath'damane and needs to be broken. There is nothing about the breaking of a person that is not cruel.

 

Now, I agree that the leashes are a reasonable response to a threat. I would say it is arguable whether it is better than Whitecloaks trying to kill every channeler they find.

 

Sadly, the Whitecloaks are better. Death comes to everyone. It's a natural occurrence. Slavery does not come to everyone. It's unnatural and abhorrent and not to be wished on anyone.

 

The really nasty part of this series is that the author had a real problem killing anybody, but he had no problem whatsoever with physical abuse, psychological abuse, rape and torture.

 

No woman, not even fictional Forsaken ones deserves rape. Far better an honest death.

 

I'm not a woman, but I'm sure not every woman would agree with you about death before rape. Hell, not every man would agree with you. I'll take rape before death - I have a family and a kid to provide for - i'm not allowed to die (according to my wife and I completely agree). Sometimes death is an easy way out. Plus, and I hope I'm not picking on nothing here and you've just misspoke, but to say "honest death" applies for victims of rape to be in some way dishonored. I think those days are over and they are not dishonored but instead physically and mentally abused and tortured. Again, I know that you most likely misspoke, but the subject is a touchy one, so just figured to point it out.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm not a woman, but I'm sure not every woman would agree with you about death before rape. Hell, not every man would agree with you. I'll take rape before death - I have a family and a kid to provide for - i'm not allowed to die (according to my wife and I completely agree). Sometimes death is an easy way out. Plus, and I hope I'm not picking on nothing here and you've just misspoke, but to say "honest death" applies for victims of rape to be in some way dishonored. I think those days are over and they are not dishonored but instead physically and mentally abused and tortured. Again, I know that you most likely misspoke, but the subject is a touchy one, so just figured to point it out.

 

No, I didn't misspeak. I meant honest as in simple, quick, and sure, not agonizing and prolonged. The first is honest, the second is just torture that didn't stop in time.

 

The point about rape is that just because you or I might find someone abhorrent, it doesn't mean they deserve inhuman treatment. It's not acceptable treatment for anyone at any time for any reason.