The thing I think Sanderson has taken the most liberty with

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Agreed, but yet ironically it works the best out of all of them (on the bones of others to some degree). Here the thought, would it still work as well if domane were not present and their slaves gone as well (after all, it's not like their whole industry depends on slavery. From what we saw only royalty have slaves and not many). I kind of have a feeling, as much as I hate to admit it, it would still work as well and people still would have the security and prosperity. But the problem, of course, arises when a crazy person is in charge. So, it's a ticking bomb.

 

Any system that concentrates too much power into very few hands is ripe for abuse. The leader doesn't have to be crazy, just not overly bright, or maybe thoughtless, or just inattentive, or disinterested. I'd guess that in the course of history more abuse of the populace has happened by mistake than by intent. I'm sure Louis XIV thought he was a wonderful king.

 

Crazy and dumb is probably the most deadly combination, though - which, of course brings us to the Forsaken.

[Talmanes]

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

There is the quote I was talking about.

 

And with the whole Seanchan thing I think you guys re looking into it way too much, though it isn't even on topic really.

For the record though, the Whitecloaks see Aes Sedai as evil, the Seanchan see them as needing to be controlled and as not even people.

The Whitecloaks are willing to align with the Aes Sedai for the greater good, the Seanchan still just want to either kill or collar every one of them.

 

The Seanchan are under a complete and absolute monarchy. The Empress controls everything, and every aspect of culture is dependent on rank. Pretty much without over complicating it, it's glorified oligarchy with absolute control.

[capuga]

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

 

Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?

 

RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

There is the quote I was talking about.

 

And with the whole Seanchan thing I think you guys re looking into it way too much, though it isn't even on topic really.

For the record though, the Whitecloaks see Aes Sedai as evil, the Seanchan see them as needing to be controlled and as not even people.

The Whitecloaks are willing to align with the Aes Sedai for the greater good, the Seanchan still just want to either kill or collar every one of them.

 

The Seanchan are under a complete and absolute monarchy. The Empress controls everything, and every aspect of culture is dependent on rank. Pretty much without over complicating it, it's glorified oligarchy with absolute control.

 

RE: the Healing of Naeff's madness. It's not actual healing. It doesn't use the same weaves she usually uses for healing. She thinks of it more like how she removed the Compulsion. The only actual Healing was on the brain tissue after she removed the black spikes. So its not a contradiction of RJ's quote.

[RUSH]

The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

RJ was a master of never spilling all the beans, and I can't see Nynaeve's healing of Naeff as something that would have slipped past the fact-checkers, so I'm operating under the assumption that no mistakes were made on either side.

 

The most likely explanation is that real, normal madness (i.e. unrelated to the One Power or the taint, just plain going crazy the old fashioned way) cannot be Healed.

 

Taint-induced madness, on the other hand, is apparently a different animal altogether. It's as if the taint manifests itself in the form of nanobots which infiltrate the brain and screw it up, and which, subsequently, can be removed by those who know how. Or cancerous cells that migrate to the brain, if the idea of nanobots is too non-fantasy for you. Or latent compulsion-like weaves that bring out whatever crazy the person might have inside them.

 

The notion that the supergirls are making all sorts of new discoveries (and re-discoveries) is either something you buy or you don't. Nynaeve figured out how to Heal stilling, and she had what, less than a year of experience with the power? Either the researchers in the Age of Legends were idiots, or the Pattern needed her to figure it out, and so she did. Deus ex patternus, to make up a pseudo-latin phrase.

[didymos]

RE: the Healing of Naeff's madness. It's not actual healing. It doesn't use the same weaves she usually uses for healing. She thinks of it more like how she removed the Compulsion. The only actual Healing was on the brain tissue after she removed the black spikes. So its not a contradiction of RJ's quote.

 

To expand on Mark's explanation, here's a reply I made a few days ago on the "Nynaeve's Arc" thread when the same quote came up:

 

RJ: The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity.

 

Curious that he made that statement, since he seems careful to RAFO stuff like that, considering what Nynaeve accomplishes in ToM.

 

I sort of doubt Nynaeve used the True Power. ;)

 

Did he slip up or has Sanderson taken liberties?

 

Nope. Look at how Ishy does it in the tEotW Prologue: it's just like OP Healing, in that he just does a weave and LTT is fixed in mere moments. Even the reaction is similar to OP Healing, just very painful, and LTT experienced different sensations than those from OP weaves.

 

Now look at what Nynaeve did: not like Healing at all. In fact, afterwards she even thinks it wasn't truly Healing because she didn't use Healing weaves to get rid of the taint. Instead she plucked out the little spikes one by one using pure Spirit. Healing is either three or all five Powers. She only used genuine Healing weaves to repair the damage to the brain that she did herself when extracting the spikes. While she worked, she had to hold the taint web in place, and then when it was all plucked out, wove a counterweave like you'd use on Compulsion. And the whole process took a very long time. So long that she couldn't spare the concentration for ignoring the heat by the time she was done. Lastly, Naeff didn't respond like someone being Healed. He wasn't tired or hungry and he didn't really react at all during the process: he didn't spasm or even tense up. He simply stopped seeing Fades in the shadows.

 

I actually had another response from before that that I like better, but I forgot what thread that was on.

[capuga]

Ok well I've skimmed some of the replies, but I don't have time to look through 11 pages so here is my opinion.

First off I did enjoy the book and thought it was quite good. That being said I noticed that the feel of the story is turning more towards Brandons usually style. The whole thing ahs just a lighter feel than it did before.

 

One particular point that I've already seen discussed was the fact that Mat had some pretty crazy scenes. In this one his letter and badger incident showed this a lot. Honestly I thought those parts came out pretty funny, but it was extremely obvious that RJ didn't write those parts. The thing I wasn't a fan of was when Mat used the 'Mother's milk in a cup' that no one besides Elayne IIRC ever said.

 

The other Sandersonism I wasn't a fan of was the fact that on two occasions, Min called Rand a 'looby'. That just seemed an odd thing and didn't fit too well in my opinion.

 

The only thing that I really have a problem with in the book is this:

Just after reading the part where Nynaeve heals the madness of Naeff, I happened to come across a quote from RJ saying that while the True Power could heal madness, the One Power could not. As soon as I'm home I'll post the quote. Although the healing of madness in the way Nynaeve did seems possible with what the WoT has showed us so far, the fact that it happened, when RJ said it couldn't doesn't sit right with me. Also I would think that Semi would probably be the one to discover it if it could be done based on her familiararity with the mind and using the Power on it.

 

I remember both Dyelin and Tsunama using this swear before. I wouldn't be surprised if Mat had previously used this one before - after all, Elayne did learn many of her curses from him.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

I don't really mind the character development.

 

Well, besides where Sanderson wrote Mat, the letter.. by far, my least favorite scene in the entire book series. Elayne would still be unhappy to read that letter from Mat, but the pregnancy could've changed it a bit?

The scene where she got stabbed was well deserved.

 

Last scene with Mat was badass, though.

 

I just pray Sanderson can write Moiraine correctly.

[didymos]

The thing I wasn't a fan of was when Mat used the 'Mother's milk in a cup' that no one besides Elayne IIRC ever said.

 

Birgitte does in WH, after getting a look at "Nuli".

 

The other Sandersonism I wasn't a fan of was the fact that on two occasions, Min called Rand a 'looby'. That just seemed an odd thing and didn't fit too well in my opinion.

 

tPoD, Chapter 29:

 

You brainless loobie, [Min] thought.

 

WH, Chapter 11:

 

"Why are you grinning at me and thumbing your ear like a loobie," [Min] demanded, stuffing the handkerchief back in her sleeve

 

Take it up with RJ. And, even he sometimes spelled it "looby".

[Talmanes]

I suppose that I just didn't remember all the previous uses, but Mat himself never said that particular swear. It just didn't seem fitting. Idk. I still didn't like looby, even it it was used before.

[didymos]

I suppose that I just didn't remember all the previous uses, but Mat himself never said that particular swear.

 

I prefer to think that Elayne and Mat both picked it up from Uno at some point, the undisputed ninja master of profanity in Randland. Mat just waited longer to work it into his obscenity rotation.

[Caius Callus]

Fiction has to be believable. In order to be believable, it has to be recognizable. To be recognized it must contain elements of reality. The reality of Imperial collapse is that lots and lots of real people suffer and die.

 

Some folks might find that interesting to read about but it certainly is not interesting or fun or anything else positive to live, and that's what's wrong with Imperial collapse.

It depends on what side of the Imperial frontier you're on. I'm sure the Goths Franks, Caledonians, Persians, Avars & co. appreciated the western demise a lot more than the Western Empire.

And eastern Europe in the early 1990s...

[Caius Callus]

Slavery and all the kinds of depravity that descend from it is worse than simple murder. A murder victim dies but once. A slave dies inside every day. Look at how the damane are described; they no longer think of themselves as people. They, even in their own eyes, are things, tools to be used, abused, or thrown away at their master's pleasure. They have been brainwashed into believing that is all they deserve.

 

That's just sick and wrong on every level.

 

That's crazy, i would rather be a slave then be dead, at least then you have a chance to live and change your circumstances, no matter how slim.

Funny, I'd rather kill than be a slave.

[gary0044187]

Slavery and all the kinds of depravity that descend from it is worse than simple murder. A murder victim dies but once. A slave dies inside every day. Look at how the damane are described; they no longer think of themselves as people. They, even in their own eyes, are things, tools to be used, abused, or thrown away at their master's pleasure. They have been brainwashed into believing that is all they deserve.

 

That's just sick and wrong on every level.

 

That's crazy, i would rather be a slave then be dead, at least then you have a chance to live and change your circumstances, no matter how slim.

Funny, I'd rather kill than be a slave.

yeah but the messed up leashes won't let you kill without commands to do so, just as much as they won't let you take your own life. Seriously the fact that the damned thing won't let you move farther than a few steps without someone on the other end is just another example of how messed up it would be.

[Caius Callus]

yeah but the messed up leashes won't let you kill without commands to do so, just as much as they won't let you take your own life. Seriously the fact that the damned thing won't let you move farther than a few steps without someone on the other end is just another example of how messed up it would be.

I was talking about slavery in general.

(Not counting neo-feudal serfdom.)

[Haran]

I suppose that I just didn't remember all the previous uses, but Mat himself never said that particular swear.

 

I prefer to think that Elayne and Mat both picked it up from Uno at some point, the undisputed ninja master of profanity in Randland. Mat just waited longer to work it into his obscenity rotation.

 

All true. But consider this. Mat has the memories of hundreds of men; Military men. His powers for swearing and other soldier virtues ought to be astronomical.

I mean, we hear so much about his tactical genius and skills with the old tongue. But what of all the other things he might have picked up? Can he knit now for example? Shouldn’t a strong memory of someone enjoying knitting also give Mat an urge to try it out himself? For old times’ sake as it were.

[didymos]

I suppose that I just didn't remember all the previous uses, but Mat himself never said that particular swear.

 

I prefer to think that Elayne and Mat both picked it up from Uno at some point, the undisputed ninja master of profanity in Randland. Mat just waited longer to work it into his obscenity rotation.

 

All true. But consider this. Mat has the memories of hundreds of men; Military men. His powers for swearing and other soldier virtues ought to be astronomical.

 

 

I refuse to believe that. Uno is the greatest practitioner of profanity EVAR!

[Haran]

I suppose that I just didn't remember all the previous uses, but Mat himself never said that particular swear.

 

I prefer to think that Elayne and Mat both picked it up from Uno at some point, the undisputed ninja master of profanity in Randland. Mat just waited longer to work it into his obscenity rotation.

 

All true. But consider this. Mat has the memories of hundreds of men; Military men. His powers for swearing and other soldier virtues ought to be astronomical.

 

 

I refuse to believe that. Uno is the greatest practitioner of profanity EVAR!

 

I had to look this up, but Uno is in fact still around. He is one of Gareth Bryne commanders. A cammeo apperance in the last book maybe?

[jsbrads]

I'm just glad brandon backed off from the ridiculous scripts that mat made outside of hinderstamp

This isn't a summer Hollywood comedy, mat is still sillier than RJ made him but he is certainly fitting into the wheel of time universe, I would still say drop the whole backstory reference everytime he meets someone but beyond that...

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm just glad brandon backed off from the ridiculous scripts that mat made outside of hinderstamp

This isn't a summer Hollywood comedy, mat is still sillier than RJ made him but he is certainly fitting into the wheel of time universe, I would still say drop the whole backstory reference everytime he meets someone but beyond that...

 

Perhaps you missed the various reports from signings - Jordan wrote the Mat scenes.

[didymos]

I'm just glad brandon backed off from the ridiculous scripts that mat made outside of hinderstamp

This isn't a summer Hollywood comedy, mat is still sillier than RJ made him but he is certainly fitting into the wheel of time universe, I would still say drop the whole backstory reference everytime he meets someone but beyond that...

 

Perhaps you missed the various reports from signings - Jordan wrote the Mat scenes.

 

Uh, all I'm aware of Brandon saying about Jordan writing the Mat stuff is that it was the Ghenjei rescue sequence.

[batcaver]

No way Jordan wrote that scene with the phony back stories unless he was up all night huffing gas. I'm gonna need a verifiable source on that claim.

[billegoat]

I don't think he's taken liberty with it at all. Pretty much every 'Light side' characters arc is about their personal growth and increasing maturity mirroring, if not being directly responsible for the action side of it.

 

Take some of them in TGS/TOM:

Mat - the over trying first couple of TGS chapters aside is Mat still being Mat. Still drinks, gambles, wants to avoid fights, but will always do what's required. Now just uses the excuse of looking for others to perve on other women.

Egwene - regressed in TOM. Not the opposition to Rand. The whole embracing the worst of the Aes Sedai to do it. Manipulative, dismissive of men in authority, the Aes Sedai must be top of the tree, etc. Anything but reasonable and willing to listen to others.

Elayne - stupid as ever. 'I'm safe! Min said so!'. The WOT doesn't need to be the Sword of Truth with rapes everywhere, but it'd have been an incredibly powerful scene if Mellar dragged her off and Birgitte/Mat rescue her after he'd assaulted Elayne.

Nynaeve - she's been on a progression since ACOS at least. And reached it in KOD. She's just continued as one of the bare handful Aes Sedai out of a thousand you can respect as a person. She didn't change in TGS/TOM I think.

 

As for Rand, Perrin and Faile - their plot lines in TGS/TOM were as much, if not more, about who they become as what they did. And that would have been RJ's outline.

 

The thing Sanderson has taken the most liberty with is characters language. I can accept him not trying to mimic RJ, in the sense of pages of silk washing, or Elayne having a bath (all I can say on these, is this better be redeemed by them picking a damn fine looking actress and not censor the Elayne bath scenes in any tv-series / movie!), but using out of character words/phrases, this I don't like. Especially 20th/21st century terms. I can see Brandon may find it easier/quicker to write the story with these terms initially, so he's not second guessing himself and getting out of 'the groove', but they shouldn't make it past editing for the final cut.

 

 

100 percent agree with the modernizing of the characters' language. "i've been played" is a bit too contemporary for the environment, and the term "setup" is also a relatively modern term used to define a deceptive ploy, but BS used it once or twice in this book. a bit nit-picky to find fault with this, but it's the most noticeable difference between the authors to me.

[didymos]

"i've been played" is a bit too contemporary for the environment, and the term "setup" is also a relatively modern term used to define a deceptive ploy, but BS used it once or twice in this book. a bit nit-picky to find fault with this, but it's the most noticeable difference between the authors to me.

 

Blame RJ. He had used "played" in the same way in tPoD (and in a Graendal POV):

 

Was she being toyed with, Graendal wondered. The pure hatred for each other on the two women's faces seemed unfeigned. Either way, she would see how they enjoyed being played.

 

"Setup" is very modern though, even in the sense of just "arrangement" or "system". Jordan did use the non-noun version though, in multiple senses: "X set up Y" or whatever

[Mats Spare Hat]

I triple dog dare BS to not use the word "Anyway" in AMoL

[l_uniquefeuille]

RJ's language was more subtle.

 

I mean about Elayne's pregnancy,

 

It was presented in a more subtle manner like some classics. Min mentions it as "She will get with child"... and things like that.

This is minor of course, just noticed.