Uncertain Theory about Matt's luck

[Jblaylock]

Am I remembering this incorrectly? In the Great Hunt, when Matt was in the White Tower recovering, and Lanfear visited him, wasn't there something different about his dice or his dice cup or both (or something like that) after she visited his room? But he just sort of brushed it off, and it was never adressed again? Didn't his "dark one's own luck" start directly after that point?

 

Is it possible that she swapped his dice and/or dice cup with an Angreal, Ter'angreal, or Sa'angreal that gives him this luck, with hopes that they (the chosen, or just her) could use that to her (or their) advantage later?

[capuga]

Am I remembering this incorrectly? In the Great Hunt, when Matt was in the White Tower recovering, and Lanfear visited him, wasn't there something different about his dice or his dice cup or both (or something like that) after she visited his room? But he just sort of brushed it off, and it was never adressed again? Didn't his "dark one's own luck" start directly after that point?

 

Is it possible that she swapped his dice and/or dice cup with an Angreal, Ter'angreal, or Sa'angreal that gives him this luck, with hopes that they (the chosen, or just her) could use that to her (or their) advantage later?

 

Believe its in tDR. Someone better with the online resources could do a search but I thought RJ said Mat's luck was not from the dice ter'angreal. Could be wrong though. I always thought the most likely theories about Mat's luck revolved around his connection to the Shadar Logoth dagger. Mr Ares has argued this point convincingly.

[Tiinker]

Ta'veren?

[nophone]

Ta'veren?

 

in his memories he always remembers having remarkable look in all of his lifes.

[didymos]

 

Believe its in tDR. Someone better with the online resources could do a search but I thought RJ said Mat's luck was not from the dice ter'angreal.

 

Here:

 

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Question: In The Dragon Reborn, Lanfear visits Mat as he is recuperating from his One Power surgery over the dagger. At one point she stretches out her hand towards him and he feels a tingle going over him, somebody interrupts them, and she turns her head and sobs, at about the same time a member of Black Ajah stole angreal and ter'angreal1 out of the Tower cache, one of which was a ter'angreal that was known to have some effect on chance. So it was about this time that Mat's really really really weird luck and the dice rolling in his head began. Is this a connection or coincidence?

 

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

Question Part 2: In that case, what was Lanfear doing?

 

Jordan: She was checking his health. She doesn't care very much, except that he is important to Rand, to Lews Therin, him and Perrin both, so she is interested in, the one she wants mainly is Lews Therin, or wanted anyway, and uh, so she is interested in these other two ta'veren, who seemed to be tied in with him, because they might be important to him.

[Jblaylock]

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

Well hold on now. Remember that RJ invented the Aes Sedai, so when you read his quotes you must read as if they are quotes from an Aes Sedai, and realize what he is and isn't actualy saying.

 

A) "in a way it's true" (that he has the Dark One's own luck): This doesn't mean that the Dark One's own luck doesn't come from a Ter'angreal created by the Chosen, a power wielding darkfriend in the Age of Legends, or by the Dark One himself. Therefore if Matt had it, it would still be true "in a way" (RJ's exact words) that he has the DO's own luck.

 

B) "It wasn't a gift from Lanfear": If Lanfear switched out his dice with dice Ter'angreal, then it wouldn't be a gift, necessarily, because she didn't "give" it to Matt and Matt didn't know about it. Also, if she swapped it for her intentions, and not for his benifit, then it wouldn't be a gift.

 

 

C) "It wasn't... from Lanfear": Lanfear could have had someone else (Black Ajah) steal it from the store room and deliver it, thus never handling it herself (Lanfear), thus making it "not from her".

 

 

D) Massana is in the White Tower, has been for some time, and is a master of hiding and disguising herself with the One Power. Matt would not have been able to see through it if Massana was disguising herself as Lanfear (for whatever reason; we don't know her personality much yet, or aren't aware if we do know it, and don't know whether or not she'd have some reason, for fun or other purpose, to do so), thus making it so that Lanfear had nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

Either of the above lines of reasoning would make Jordan's statment completely true, but not the truth you think it is, and they'd all say that my theory is still possible.

[Shard]

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

Well hold on now. Remember that RJ invented the Aes Sedai, so when you read his quotes you must read as if they are quotes from an Aes Sedai, and realize what he is and isn't actualy saying.

 

You really shouldn't do that, save yourself years of head and heart ache and realize that he really is trying to be blunt and straightfoward.

[Jblaylock]

Jordan: That is a coincidence. When they say that Mat has the Dark One's own luck, he can get as mad as he wants to, but in a way it is true. It wasn't a gift from Lanfear, though.

 

Well hold on now. Remember that RJ invented the Aes Sedai, so when you read his quotes you must read as if they are quotes from an Aes Sedai, and realize what he is and isn't actualy saying.

 

You really shouldn't do that, save yourself years of head and heart ache and realize that he really is trying to be blunt and straightfoward.

 

 

You are probably right, I'm just saying that quote isn't solid proof one way or the other. It won't be years, if it isn't cleared up or mentioned in TOM or MOL then my theory is wrong and it will end there.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

I'm pretty certain that over the series Mat has actually LOST that set of dice he had at TV.

[didymos]

I'm pretty certain that over the series Mat has actually LOST that set of dice he had at TV.

 

Which is irrelevant, because we're talking about a ter'angreal that looks like dice, not actual dice. It's a single piece, so Lanfear couldn't have swapped it for his dice to begin with.

[didymos]

Either of the above lines of reasoning would make Jordan's statment completely true, but not the truth you think it is, and they'd all say that my theory is still possible.

 

Provided you ignore the whole lack of evidence thing, the contradictory evidence about the nature and whereabouts of the dice ter'angreal and the part where Jordan tells us exactly what Lanfear was doing and why she did it which also confirms that Lanfear was Lanfear (aside from all the in-book evidence to that effect).

[Kaznen]

He was lucky with the dice in tGH. We didn't see it in tEotW because Mat didn't have a chance to dice. I think if Rand or Perrin sat down and a dice game they would win more often then not also.

[didymos]

He was lucky with the dice in tGH. We didn't see it in tEotW because Mat didn't have a chance to dice. I think if Rand or Perrin sat down and a dice game they would win more often then not also.

 

Oh, yeah. Good call. I remember noting that on my recent re-read, but it had slipped my mind. Here's the bit from that book:

He shook his, producing a clink of coins. "I seem to have luck with the dice. I can hardly touch them without winning."

 

We get another hint of it later between Mat and Loial:

Mat laughed. "How could I not be friends with someone who dices so badly?"

[Mr Ares]

Ta'veren?

Curiously enough, Mat doesn't think so - his thoughts as late as CoT/KoD (there's a reference in one of the books, but I can't remember which one) show that he thinks of his luck and his being ta'veren as two different things. Now, as someone mentioned I have argued this is the past, and while I'm not going to go looking up all the quotes right now I am willing to give an outline of the theory.

 

Mat thinks of his luck as beginning after Shadar Logoth, but he became ta'veren a couple of weeks before leaving the TR. In TGH we are told he is lucky with the dice, but we don't have any Mat POVs. Likewise on the road to Tar Valon, he dices with Hurin and his constant winning means they start gambling just for coppers, then not for money at all. After he is Healed, we start getting our first Mat POVs, and his first night of dicing is his first night of super-luck. So, we have Mat prior to SL (lucky, but not unusually so), Mat with the dagger (very lucky) and Mat after the dagger (when his luck is in, he never loses). So, changes to his luck (bearing in mind it waxes and wanes - his luck isn't always in) happen about the same time as changes to his relationship to the SL dagger. Mat is unsure of what could be the cause of the luck - something to do with SL does occur to him, but he fervently hopes this is not the case. Mat consistently thinks of his being ta'veren as separate from his luck, so one cannot argue that it is simply his refusal to accept being ta'veren - even after he does, he still doesn't tie it to his luck. Also, his luck is said to work best on thinfs that are more random - dice better than cards, for example, and not much at all on horses, where he has to rely on his knowledge of horseflesh to pick likely winners. Ta'veren can work on things that are not purely random, matters of concious choice (what people are going to say, for example), as well as random things. There are quotes for pretty much all of that scattered throughout the text, it was just a matter of piecing them together. Of course, it's not confirmed, just my best guess based on the information at hand.

[Jblaylock]

Now those are good points I'm willing to accept as evidence to change my mind, but not the Jordan quote.

[Magnetic Zero]

I've always just figured it was a Talent. Like Perrin being a Wolfbrother, Elayne being able to make ter'angreal, Egwene being good with Earth, Nynaeve being good with Healing, and Aviendha being able to tell what a ter'angreal does, etc. There are lots of Talents, and there's no reason his luck can't be one. While the SL connection is certainly possible, it just doesn't make sense on any level (and Fain doesn't have Mat's supreme luck that we're aware of) besides a chronological connection. Mat's luck begins to ramp up around the same time that Perrin's Talent begins to show through.

[OptimusPrime]

I think its relating to the dagger incident and I wouldnt be surprised if Fain had something similar from Shadar logoth also. It seems to me that Mats luck relates particularly to situations that are entirely random, whereas Ta'veren can affect almost anything be it random or not.

 

Ive always put it down to Shadar Logoth because of the description of both Mats luck and the way Shadar Logoths power came about. Aridhol became as dark as the Shadow to fight the Shadow, and it gained powers in that respect. The way I see it, Mats luck (in this theory coming from SL) is extra special in chaotic situations; where there are no decisive factors, bearers of this thing Mat got become the decisive factor. Imagining the Shadow creating chaotic situations all the time, then imagine putting someone in there that benefits from those situations. In my head that sounds both like Mats luck and the Shadar Logoth evils motive.

 

Also, at the Cleansing the Taint was pulled to the Shadar Logoth evil. Whether or not this applies I dont know, but if the luck thing is right, it could almost look like the Shadar Logoth evil can benefit from the Shadows chaos, so it attracts it. Kind of like, if someone with the Shadar Logoth evil is near the Shadow, they will be attracted to each other and if the Shadow sew chaos, the Shadar Logoth evil cant help but benefit from it

[didymos]

Hmmm. Verin seemed to think his luck had something do with being ta'veren:

 

"Coincidence is how being ta'veren works," Verin said. "You find a discarded object that is of great use to you, or happen to meet an individual at just the right time. Random chance works randomly in your favor. Or haven't you noticed?" She smiled "Care to throw some dice on it?"

 

This is interesting given what happens in Hinderstap: Mat decides he needs to lose in order to pull his little trick off for getting supplies and he does just that until he needs to win the final toss. Of course, this gets Mat and Co. stuck fighting hordes of homicidal somnambulists, revealing their secret and leading Mat to discover that some woman in Trustair is handing out those 'Have you seen me? My name is Mat' fliers everywhere. The whole crazy ordeal also serves to really drive home to Mat that it's time to take this Last Battle stuff more seriously.

 

Plus, there's the fact that nearly all of his most fateful decisions, the ones dealing with Foretellings/prophecies (e.g. definite Pattern-ordained stuff) are accompanied by the sound of those bloody dice.

[woodruff]

Am I remembering this incorrectly? In the Great Hunt, when Matt was in the White Tower recovering, and Lanfear visited him, wasn't there something different about his dice or his dice cup or both (or something like that) after she visited his room? But he just sort of brushed it off, and it was never adressed again? Didn't his "dark one's own luck" start directly after that point?

 

Is it possible that she swapped his dice and/or dice cup with an Angreal, Ter'angreal, or Sa'angreal that gives him this luck, with hopes that they (the chosen, or just her) could use that to her (or their) advantage later?

 

 

 

on the list of stolen ter angreal that was given to nyneave was a pair of dice that alway rolled consistently

[didymos]

on the list of stolen ter angreal that was given to nyneave was a pair of dice that alway rolled consistently

 

No. It was a ter'angreal that looked like a cluster of dice. Not a pair, and not able to be rolled. If you channeled into it, it would affect probability locally. Most of the testing mentioned was done with a coin too, not dice.

[Val Mickey]

I'm pretty certain that over the series Mat has actually LOST that set of dice he had at TV.

 

I don't know about the dice, but he gave away the dice cup to Olver.

[didymos]

I'm pretty certain that over the series Mat has actually LOST that set of dice he had at TV.

 

I don't know about the dice, but he gave away the dice cup to Olver.

 

It doesn't matter: the only reason people even brought that up was that ter'angreal that simply looked like dice. And which required active channeling to work at all.

[Cazajay]

I'm pretty certain that over the series Mat has actually LOST that set of dice he had at TV.

 

Which is irrelevant, because we're talking about a

ter'angreal that looks like dice, not actual dice. It's a single piece, so Lanfear couldn't have swapped it for his dice to begin with.

 

 

Well now Mat hears dice rattling inside his skull perhaps Lanfear activated the Ter'angreal and it is infact now a part of Mat until someone with the One Power and knowledge of the AoL device can deactivate it. Perhaps Aviendha could detect it if she Delves Mat who knows. It was probably used for cheating at games of chance back then, wouldn't want to be caught carrying the item on your person.

[didymos]

Well now Mat hears dice rattling inside his skull perhaps Lanfear activated the Ter'angreal and it is infact now a part of Mat until someone with the One Power and knowledge of the AoL device can deactivate it. Perhaps Aviendha could detect it if she Delves Mat who knows. It was probably used for cheating at games of chance back then, wouldn't want to be caught carrying the item on your person.

 

His luck started back in tGH before he ever went near Tar Valon. See quotes upthread. Lanfear also wasn't responsible. See quotes from RJ upthread too. As to the notion of the ter'angreal somehow being embedded in his skull or whatever...that's absurd and there's not a shred of evidence that it was either done or that such a thing is even possible. Besides: the rattling dice in his head are tied to his important decisions, not his gambling.