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US edition Chapter 27 pg 431

 

"But we must make some kind of declaration," Romanda said. She was

eldest among them, and would be the one running the meeting. "Something

to make the position of the Hall known, to dissuade the Amyrlin

from an imprudent call for war."

 

This is the Aes Sedai talking not the Kin. Age means nothing in the AS hierarchy. Maybe he meant strongest but I'm unsure if Romanda is the strongest of that grouping or not.

 

Age does determine precedence among Sitters, however.

 

-- dwn

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I don't know if this is a mistake, worded poorly, or a hint at something more:

 

Page 726

 

"The other four looked at her. She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off."

 

Could mean that she meant of Aviendha's line, but if so, it could have been worded in a much better way. Could also have been meant to say "Last of the three". Or, it could mean Rand has a fourth wife.

 

She's of the Avi/Rand-line. Aviendha bore four children, of which only one's line still has a living heir.

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I don't know if this is a mistake, worded poorly, or a hint at something more:

 

Page 726

 

"The other four looked at her. She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off."

 

Could mean that she meant of Aviendha's line, but if so, it could have been worded in a much better way. Could also have been meant to say "Last of the three". Or, it could mean Rand has a fourth wife.

This is from Aviendha's great granddaughter. Aviendha and Rand supposedly had 4 children, each went on to sire a lineage. Those are the four lines, and the woman speaking is supposedly the last remaining descendant.

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b) Elayne HERSELF referred to the civil war as a succession war, when she was adamant it wasn't a succession unless one House succeeded another in KoD. BTW Thom did that as well, and I believe him equally unlikely to make that mistake. If I'm not mistaken, the same happened in TGS somewhere.

 

It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

 

c) Wasn't there something off in Elayne's timeline? She was aligned with Mat at the beginning, yet when Gawyn arrived at Caemlyn she was aligned with Egwene, plus there was her meeting with Egwene in the Dream World which I don't know how to fit in. I do remember that I felt something was seriously wrong the first time we got to see White Tower dwelers from her PoV (when that was, I'm not sure).

 

It's a bit wonky, but using Veins of Gold as a zero point, we get (very roughly):

 

Day -30 - Verin takes Mat to Caemlyn; Verin talks to Egwene; Egwene reunites the Tower

 

Day -30..0 - The gholam kills Lopin; Mat and Elayne hug; Mat kills the gholam (it's cloudy);

 

Day 0 - Veins of Gold

 

Day 0..30 - Elayne and Nynaeve meet Egwene in T'A'R; Gawyn returns to Caemlyn (it's sunny); Perrin and Galad hug; Egwene and Gawyn hug; Mat catches a badger; Perrin and Elayne hug

 

Day 30 - Mat enters the ToG; Everyone else goes to watch Egwene and Rand fight

 

The biggest problem I see is that Mat looks to have spent around 60 days in Caemlyn. We know that Verin died about 30 days before Veins of Gold, and we know everyone was gathering at the Field of Merrilor about 30 days after. I suppose you could argue he was seeing to the dragon construction and planning, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

 

-- dwn

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It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

See, now you're arguing with Elayne. Do you remember KoD 'The importance of Dyelyn'? There's a terminology to those things, and Elayne insists that Ellorien was being provocative by calling it a succession, when in fact it is not (not unless she loses, that is).

 

As to the chronology, Mat wouldn't wait more than 30 days in Caemlyn. He promised Thom. And Verin was fairly certain that the trollocs will arrive at Caemlyn in no more than a month. Also, when did Elayne answer that summons of Egwene's? Because she didn't seem to know what Egwene told her back in her PoV's with Mat.

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It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

See, now you're arguing with Elayne. Do you remember KoD 'The importance of Dyelyn'? There's a terminology to those things, and Elayne insists that Ellorien was being provocative by calling it a succession, when in fact it is not (not unless she loses, that is).

 

It was a succession war that didn't end with a succession. Elayne is irritated with Ellorien because there shouldn't have been any question of Trakand staying in power given that there was a perfectly viable Daugher-Heir. By calling the situation a succession, Ellorien implied that Elayne was unfit to rule.

 

As to the chronology, Mat wouldn't wait more than 30 days in Caemlyn. He promised Thom. And Verin was fairly certain that the trollocs will arrive at Caemlyn in no more than a month. Also, when did Elayne answer that summons of Egwene's? Because she didn't seem to know what Egwene told her back in her PoV's with Mat.

 

Take a look at my rough timeline above. Elayne met with Mat before Veins of Gold (indeed, the gholam died before VoG). The meeting between Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne in T'A'R happened after VoG.

 

I agree that Mat wouldn't wait, which is why his apparent 60 day stretch in Caemlyn seems wrong. If you can poke holes in my timeline logic, though, please do.

 

-- dwn

 

(Edited for clarity)

Edited by dwn
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It was a succession war that didn't end with a succession. Elayne is irritated with Ellorien because there shouldn't have been any question of Trakand staying in power given that there was a perfectly viable Daugher-Heir. By calling the situation a succession, Ellorien implied that Elayne was unfit to rule.

What happened was this:

Ellorien sneered. "If you're waiting for Danine to make your ten, you'll have a long wait. Danine spent the last Succession visiting her manors. She never declared for anyone."

Elayne smiled, but it was difficult. A Succession was when one House succeeded another on the throne. "I will have tea."

So I reject your conclusion. The process (and indeed the entire period of civil unrest) is referred to as a Succession ONLY if one House succeeds another.

 

Take a look at my rough timeline above. Elayne met with Mat before Veins of Gold (indeed, the gholam died before VoG). The meeting between Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne in T'A'R happened after VoG.

 

I agree that Mat wouldn't wait, which is why his apparent 60 day stretch in Caemlyn seems wrong. If you can poke holes in my timeline logic, though, please do.

It's hard, because you don't really offer a timeline. We know (according to Brandon) that Mat arrives at Caemlyn +30 days prior to Veins of Gold, right? Elayne meets with him some 10 days after, I believe. She then gets restricted to her bed shortly after (in about a day or two). That's another week (10 days). Gawyn appears to arrive at Caemlyn just when she's finished with that, but from Egwene's point of view he doesn't leave TV until after 4 AS get killed, which takes several days (I can't remember exactly, but he does tell us IIRC) past VoG. By then Egwene's met with Elayne in TAR, and Gawyn ruined her trap (which is bound to be several more days). So, which is it? 10 days prior to VoG or ~10-15 days after?

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It was a succession war that didn't end with a succession. Elayne is irritated with Ellorien because there shouldn't have been any question of Trakand staying in power given that there was a perfectly viable Daugher-Heir. By calling the situation a succession, Ellorien implied that Elayne was unfit to rule.

What happened was this:

Ellorien sneered. "If you're waiting for Danine to make your ten, you'll have a long wait. Danine spent the last Succession visiting her manors. She never declared for anyone."

Elayne smiled, but it was difficult. A Succession was when one House succeeded another on the throne. "I will have tea."

So I reject your conclusion. The process (and indeed the entire period of civil unrest) is referred to as a Succession ONLY if one House succeeds another.

 

Any war over who takes the throne after a monarch's death could be termed a war of succession. A Succession (capital S) obviously has the specific meaning of the throne passing to another house, yet Elayne still succeeds (lower case s) Morgase as queen of Andor. Ellorien was just using the former meaning to needle Elayne.

 

-- dwn

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It's hard, because you don't really offer a timeline. We know (according to Brandon) that Mat arrives at Caemlyn +30 days prior to Veins of Gold, right? Elayne meets with him some 10 days after, I believe. She then gets restricted to her bed shortly after (in about a day or two). That's another week (10 days). Gawyn appears to arrive at Caemlyn just when she's finished with that, but from Egwene's point of view he doesn't leave TV until after 4 AS get killed, which takes several days (I can't remember exactly, but he does tell us IIRC) past VoG. By then Egwene's met with Elayne in TAR, and Gawyn ruined her trap (which is bound to be several more days). So, which is it? 10 days prior to VoG or ~10-15 days after?

 

I'll try again, revised with further information from Steven Cooper's timeline.

 

About 30 days before VoG, Verin takes Mat to Caemlyn

 

Between Mat arriving in Caemlyn and VoG, in order:

The gholam kills Lopin

Mat and Elayne hug

Mat kills the gholam (it's still cloudy in Caemlyn)

 

In the days right before VoG, in order:

Verin dies

The Seanchan attack the Tower

Egwene reunites the Tower

 

Veins of Gold

 

In the days following VoG, in order:

Elayne and Nynaeve meet Egwene in T'A'R

Gawyn returns to Caemlyn (it's now sunny in Caemlyn)

The big fight in T'A'R happens

Egwene and Gawyn hug

Perrin and Galad hug

Mat catches a badger

Perrin and Elayne hug

 

About 30 days after VoG, Grady takes Mat to the ToG, then takes Perrin to the Field of Merrilor

 

 

Hopefully that's a bit more clear. I'm not trying to attach specific dates to events, but I think my ordering is pretty close. The big problem is that Mat goes to the ToG at about the same time everyone else is gathering at the Field of Merrilor, which suggests he was in Caemlyn for about 60 days.

 

-- dwn

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US edition pg 492-493

 

Well, Elayne and Birgitte's idea with the gateway had worked out, even if it hadn't been the way they'd planned. It was still better than what Mat had been able to come with; his only idea bad been to try to stuff one of those medallions down the gholam's throat.

 

Should probably have been "It was still better than what Mat had been able to come up with;"

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Found a couple of errors after my first read-through ....

 

1) p.180 "You're taking talking about Hark, aren't you?"

2) p.217 Her food foot sank through the shattered paving stone and hit packed earth.

3) p.386 .. who will watch from the ridge to the southeast and send word if we should we fall.

4) p.440 .. but perhaps he could he get through by more mundane means.

5) p.538 "That judgment is of no concern to this trial," Morgase said coldly." (no need of the last close quotation mark)

6) p.625 They galloped their horses to the of camp, white cloaks streaming behind them, and looked up the road.

9) p.805 Mat charged after Mat Thom and Noal.

Edited by my0t1
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Didn't read the thread, but one here's several.

 

Page 45, "He rose, walking (walked, inconsistent tense) over to pull it shut, ...

 

Page 51, "Once this sword is drawn you become a warrior, always with (keep) it near you in preparation to fight the Shadow."

 

Page 597, "She wove Earth (should be Water), Spirit, and Air into a Healing, ...

 

page 597 again, "She'd never have killed (defeated perhaps) Mesaana.

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US edition Chapter 27 pg 431

 

"But we must make some kind of declaration," Romanda said. She was

eldest among them, and would be the one running the meeting. "Something

to make the position of the Hall known, to dissuade the Amyrlin

from an imprudent call for war."

 

This is the Aes Sedai talking not the Kin. Age means nothing in the AS hierarchy. Maybe he meant strongest but I'm unsure if Romanda is the strongest of that grouping or not.

Age actually has a lot of meaning in the Hall. You should go back and read some previous meetings.

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Here's something that confuses me. The Black Ajah, Siuan, Leane and Nynaeve were all using copies of the dream ter'angreal--i.e. ones that only allow you to channel a minute trickle. So how were they throwing around blasts like they were in the Dream Battle?

 

Since nearly everyone was using copies Elayne had made, they were mostly on an equal footing. Another point is that they weren't using weaves that directly relied on relative strength (i.e. trying to shield the black sisters), so T'A'R helped augment the intended effects.

 

Be that as it may, the channeling going on there did seem a bit over the top.

 

-- dwn

 

At least a third of the Dream Ter'angreal stolen by Sheriam were copies of the twisted ring which does allow channeling.

Edited by SteelBlaidd
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Here's something that confuses me. The Black Ajah, Siuan, Leane and Nynaeve were all using copies of the dream ter'angreal--i.e. ones that only allow you to channel a minute trickle. So how were they throwing around blasts like they were in the Dream Battle?

 

Since nearly everyone was using copies Elayne had made, they were mostly on an equal footing. Another point is that they weren't using weaves that directly relied on relative strength (i.e. trying to shield the black sisters), so T'A'R helped augment the intended effects.

 

Be that as it may, the channeling going on there did seem a bit over the top.

 

-- dwn

 

At least a third of the Dream Ter'angreal stolen by Sheriam were copies of the twisted ring which does allow channeling.

 

All the ter'angreal allow channeling, but any of them--Elayne's copies even more so--leave the user less substantial in T'A'R than a dreamer, which makes the user's channeling less 'real' in T'A'R. Given some of the sources above, most of the channeling in that fight shouldn't have been 'real' enough to hurt people, destroy walls, etc.

 

It's like how Perrin had to learn to enter the dream strongly enough to fight Slayer, but not so strong as to lose his way back.

 

-- dwn

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b) Elayne HERSELF referred to the civil war as a succession war, when she was adamant it wasn't a succession unless one House succeeded another in KoD. BTW Thom did that as well, and I believe him equally unlikely to make that mistake. If I'm not mistaken, the same happened in TGS somewhere.

 

It was a war over who would succeed to the Lion Throne, thus a succession war. It just happened to end with Trakand retaining the crown.

 

c) Wasn't there something off in Elayne's timeline? She was aligned with Mat at the beginning, yet when Gawyn arrived at Caemlyn she was aligned with Egwene, plus there was her meeting with Egwene in the Dream World which I don't know how to fit in. I do remember that I felt something was seriously wrong the first time we got to see White Tower dwelers from her PoV (when that was, I'm not sure).

 

It's a bit wonky, but using Veins of Gold as a zero point, we get (very roughly):

 

Day -30 - Verin takes Mat to Caemlyn; Verin talks to Egwene; Egwene reunites the Tower

 

Day -30..0 - The gholam kills Lopin; Mat and Elayne hug; Mat kills the gholam (it's cloudy);

 

Day 0 - Veins of Gold

 

Day 0..30 - Elayne and Nynaeve meet Egwene in T'A'R; Gawyn returns to Caemlyn (it's sunny); Perrin and Galad hug; Egwene and Gawyn hug; Mat catches a badger; Perrin and Elayne hug

 

Day 30 - Mat enters the ToG; Everyone else goes to watch Egwene and Rand fight

 

The biggest problem I see is that Mat looks to have spent around 60 days in Caemlyn. We know that Verin died about 30 days before Veins of Gold, and we know everyone was gathering at the Field of Merrilor about 30 days after. I suppose you could argue he was seeing to the dragon construction and planning, but that seems a bit of a stretch to me.

 

-- dwn

 

Verin died the night of the Seanchan raid. That's two days before VoG.

The Elayne Timeline aligns peacefully with Mat.

The Field of Merrilor is a question-mark -everyone seems to have arrived early.

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Verin died the night of the Seanchan raid. That's two days before VoG.

 

I've corrected that in my revised timeline above. It doesn't fix the Mat problem, however.

 

The Elayne Timeline aligns peacefully with Mat.

 

It does except when we see Elayne at the T'A'R meeting from Egwene's POV.

 

The Field of Merrilor is a question-mark -everyone seems to have arrived early.

 

Judging by Egwene's POV in 'Something Wrong', Perrin's forces arrive at the Field of Merrilor at most a day or two before the meeting. Rand gets there during her POV, and Gawyn is giving her information on Perrin's forces, implying that Perrin has also just arrived.

 

-- dwn

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We can follow Perrin and Rand's timelines pretty clearly through.

Rand does VoG on night 2 after nearly killing Tam, VoG +1, he meets Egwene and says Field of M @+27 days. (WoT month is 28 and he intends to go to Shayol Gyhul on 28). He returns to Tear (VoG +2), then he spends one day or so in Bandar Eban

 

Edit: Then there's a big gap of maybe 20 days.

Then he rescues Ituralde at Maradon (VoG+20-odd).

The next day he's off to meet the Borderlanders and then he's at field of Merrilor (VoG+26?)

The question mark here is, does he spend the interim in Tarwin's Gap?

It might fit because he didn't deal with the BT and there's not much else he could have done.

Meanwhile Nyn does her test approx (VoG+3), grabs the bond etc.

One VoG+4, the WT attack starts in force.

Perrin is present at VoG. he breaks the D-Spike on VoG +4 ,

pulls his army out to Whitebridge and then goes back on VoG +5 and beats up the trollocs from the Portals.

Then he returns with the Whitecloaks to Andor and then Merrilor.

In Andor, he puts Grady on the job of Gate-ing Mat to ToG, and Grady also discovers the BT is D-Spiked

Elayne meets Egwene & Nyn on VoG +2.

I think you have a problem reconciling timelines because first we see Elayne from Egwene's timeline which is post VoG and then she drops back into Mat's timeline which starts much earlier. She meets Mat quite a bit before VoG. The cannon demo comes around 10 days before VoG I think.

Edited by Sharaman
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I'd still say the timeline is a mess, or looks a bit forced in the least.

 

When did Mat Travel to Caemlyin with Verin?

What was he doing there for so long?

 

What's up with the Wise Ones not being able to find Perrin's group before VoG? It shouldn't be too hard, with dreamers available.

What was Perrin doing all those days after Rand's ultimatum? What was Rand doing? He did exactly nothing for like 20 days?

 

Where the hell is Aviendha? She should be back loooooooooooooong since. Actually, she should be back several days before VoG.

Like nothing happening at the Black Tower for several books AND at least 60+ days?

 

Where is Logain?

 

As for Aviendha's visions, they are very odd. All those channelers who should live 300-600 years and no one is alive after 17 years? That is not very easy to believe. The timeline there seems to be a mess.

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The biggest problem I had with the timeline is the time between VoG and fight in T'A'R, for Perrin and Egwene respectively.

 

Perrin sees VoG after he's agreed to a trial and indeed after the bubble of evil hits the camp. The evening after the trial (2-4? days later) he's in the T'A'R-fight.

 

During these few days Egwene (in rough order):

1) meets Rand

2) collects info on Mesaana

3) is plagued by Bloodknife murders (which seems to happen for a couple of nights)

4) has correspondence with several leaders

5) has various meetings in T'A'R

6) comes up with a plan and makes the setup for trapping BA and Messy in T'A'R

7) Nynaeve's testing

8) is "saved" by Gawyn in the first Bloodknife attack on her and Gawyn leaves for Caemlyn and comes back in time for the attack

 

As for Verin and Mat; did she really Travel with him to Caemlyn 30 days before VoG? The impression I got was that after leaving Mat she quickly arranged for the letters (and whatever else we don't know about yet) and then met Egwene a day or so later. If there really was a period of ~25 days between her meeting with Mat and Egwene I think she'd have had time to find the Oath rod.

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p. 674 A Reunion-it's nit picky, but Aviendha keeps thinking of Rand entirely by his first name here. She's always addressed him and thought of him as Rand al'Thor, since that's his whole name as she sees it. She's explained in the past that using part of someone's name is like a "honey name" between lovers, and she's not yet familiar enough with him to think of him that way. I could understand an occasional slip in her consciousness as she begins to adapt to thinking of him more familiarly, but the name Rand is used 10 times in two pages here, and only once is it followed by "al'Thor." The ratio should be reversed.

 

Also, a huge premise of the plot is Egwene writing to monarchs about Rand's plan to break the seals, but isn't it established that most monarchs wouldn't know what they are?

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p. 674 A Reunion-it's nit picky, but Aviendha keeps thinking of Rand entirely by his first name here. She's always addressed him and thought of him as Rand al'Thor, since that's his whole name as she sees it. She's explained in the past that using part of someone's name is like a "honey name" between lovers, and she's not yet familiar enough with him to think of him that way. I could understand an occasional slip in her consciousness as she begins to adapt to thinking of him more familiarly, but the name Rand is used 10 times in two pages here, and only once is it followed by "al'Thor." The ratio should be reversed.

Reread WH 'A Lily in Winter'. Once she told him she loved him, she started calling him Rand. At least she did to his face, but why not think of him that way too?

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