Nakomi

[herid]

 

 

It may be true that the WOs have Dreamed of Avi's importance to the Aiel - it definitely seems like they know something about it anyway. But that doesn't explain why they'd choose to go to her, in disguise, before she went through the columns.

 

I addressed that above. let me reprint it for those who don't like to scroll

 

 

why did the Wise Ones not talk to Avi about it before in great detail?

Because Avi was not a full Wise one yet. they would not discuss the most important issues with her the same way as they don't with other Aiel.

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised. And they might have an extra reason to do it if they Dreamed something important about Avi.

 

For the Aiel nothing had changed by Rand balenuking Natrim's Barrow. He had been neglecting the Aiel for a long time. So I don't see any sudden urgency to manipulate Aviendha like this.

 

 

oh please. they might not care about Natrin's Barrow itself but they certainly see that Rand is quickly loosing it especially after his encounter with Semirhage. Everybody around Rand sees that. They are all very worried about it too as is often mentioned.

they even mention it to Avi before she leaves!

Amys says to her:

"Yes. Return quickly once you pass through the pillars. We will need to discuss how to best handle the Car'a'carn. He has . . . changed since last night."

 

they are plotting with Cadsuane to fix Rand but that is far from a sure bet.

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

 

It may be true that the WOs have Dreamed of Avi's importance to the Aiel - it definitely seems like they know something about it anyway. But that doesn't explain why they'd choose to go to her, in disguise, before she went through the columns.

 

I addressed that above. let me reprint it for those who don't like to scroll

 

 

why did the Wise Ones not talk to Avi about it before in great detail?

Because Avi was not a full Wise one yet. they would not discuss the most important issues with her the same way as they don't with other Aiel.

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised. And they might have an extra reason to do it if they Dreamed something important about Avi.

 

For the Aiel nothing had changed by Rand balenuking Natrim's Barrow. He had been neglecting the Aiel for a long time. So I don't see any sudden urgency to manipulate Aviendha like this.

 

 

oh please. they might not care about Natrin's Barrow itself but they certainly see that Rand is quickly loosing it especially after his encounter with Semirhage. Everybody around Rand sees that. They are all very worried about it too as is often mentioned.

they even mention it to Avi before she leaves!

Amys says to her:

"Yes. Return quickly once you pass through the pillars. We will need to discuss how to best handle the Car'a'carn. He has . . . changed since last night."

 

they are plotting with Cadsuane to fix Rand but that is far from a sure bet.

 

 

Thanks for giving that quote since it completely kills off any possibility of Nakomi being a Wise One.

[herid]

 

 

 

Thanks for giving that quote since it completely kills off any possibility of Nakomi being a Wise One.

how so?

[b3arz3rg3r]

 

 

 

Thanks for giving that quote since it completely kills off any possibility of Nakomi being a Wise One.

how so?

 

Look at your own reasoning.

 

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised.

 

This is what you wrote. Your quote of Amys completely invalidates your argument. They want to talk to her after she returns so why would they suddenly talk to her before she even gets to Rhuidean? It makes no sense.

[herid]

 

 

 

Thanks for giving that quote since it completely kills off any possibility of Nakomi being a Wise One.

how so?

 

Look at your own reasoning.

 

Avi leaves for Rhuidean as soon as she declares herself ready to join the wise ones. there is no time to chat before she leaves. after that they are forbidden to talk to her openly till she returns. However, her trip takes a long time. Meanwhile the world is quickly going to hell in a basket. Rand has just had his encounter with Semirhage and is totally loosing it. The Last Battle can happen at any moment (and it does too!). No way to tell if they will all die before they see Avi again. yet somebody must take care of the Aiel. so they break the precepts and talk to her disguised.

 

This is what you wrote. Your quote of Amys completely invalidates your argument. They want to talk to her after she returns so why would they suddenly talk to her before she even gets to Rhuidean? It makes no sense.

yes, it does. as I said, Avi leaves right after Rand's encounter with Semirhage and her trip takes a long time. the full extent of the effect of Rand's transformation does not become apparent immediately although the Wise Ones definitely see that something is wrong with him right away. But it all gets much worse very quickly. after Natrin's Barrow everybody knows that Rand is on the brink and things can blow up at any moment as they, in fact, do in the end and and all before Avi comes back. for all the Wise Ones know they may not have enough time to wait for her to come back so they break the precepts and contact her in disguise.

 

This is a LOT more likely then Jenn surviving hidden among Aiel for thousands of years (which we are told in the story they didn't) and then one of them just happening to be wondering in the middle of a huge desert and crossing Avi's path with some extremely helpful advice.

[capeta]

How about this?

 

Remember how fleeing Ebou Dar Elayne thought that the sun moved back in time? This sparked debate weather Avi time traveled them back a bit?

 

Avi travels from rhuideon(sp?) to the to the same spot that she camped before, only to find herself setting up camp. She realizes what has happened and disguises herself and masks her ability to channel(she should have learned from Elayne). She then introduces herself as Nakomi, and gets herself thinking along another track.

 

-Cap

[herid]

How about this?

 

Remember how fleeing Ebou Dar Elayne thought that the sun moved back in time? This sparked debate weather Avi time traveled them back a bit?

 

Avi travels from rhuideon(sp?) to the to the same spot that she camped before, only to find herself setting up camp. She realizes what has happened and disguises herself and masks her ability to channel(she should have learned from Elayne). She then introduces herself as Nakomi, and gets herself thinking along another track.

 

-Cap

Hey, that's a cool idea! I don't think it has been voiced before. It would certainly explain a number of things about the Nakomi encounter. it's not clear though why Avi would make a gateway to such a random place in the Waste. I would think that if she was going to Travel she'd just go back to the Wise Ones. Either that or just run if she wanted time to think (as she said she does). Also, I'm pretty sure that the entire meeting takes place in TAR although one can argue about that one. But really, this is a very nice theory. I hope it's wrong though. I found the original time traveling gateway theory very intriguing but if it's true it would really put a lot of strain on the story. too much in my opinion. The world of WoT is exceedingly complex as it is. we've got OP, TP, mirror worlds, parallel worlds, the Dark One, The Creator, TAR and so on. There is only so much you can pile on before it starts to seriously strain suspension of disbelief. Adding time traveling and at such a late point in the story too would be a huge bag of worms which I don't think the story can take.

[Sharaman]

I think there's an RJ quote visavis TAR (or Finnland) where he categorically states that time can run at different speeds but not backwards.

Of course, you could construct some sort of BF-related situation perhaps.

But time-travel does seem a shady mechanism, this late into the WoT.

[weccer]

I agree with several other posters, for me the obvious plant of the term "rambling" seals it that this is Verin. This is almost uniquely a characteristic of Verin's consistently throughout the entire 13-book series. Case closed as far as I am concerned.

[Morsker]

Besides considering Verin far-fetched, my big problem is that Verin lies when it's convenient, but Nakomi can't or won't lie and has to resort to an elaborate non-answer when asked if she's far from her hold. I haven't decided exactly what I think Nakomi is, even if she's more than just a dream, but avoiding lies is totally out of character for Verin.

[bsmnt23]

there's too many pages of this theory so I'm just going to put mine out there. All the odd events in Avi's wierd meeting with Nakomi make it unlikely it happened in reality. But it seems likely she had drowsed off as people are wont to do when they had spent the whole day walking (or likely running, knowing Avi) through the hot sun all day. That would indicate she was either dragged into TAR by whoever Nakomi actualy is, or Nakomi inserted herself into Avi's dreams. Avi had a little bit of exposure to TAR with the Dreamwalker Wize Ones, but she was by no means an expert, nor fully in control of her dreams. That all seems obvious, the only thing I am unsure on is who Nakomi is. But I have a few for that, too.

1: Verin. (Yawn) we've all been hashing that one out but it remains a very plausible theory; her possesssion of the TAR stone ring and the copius notes of said indicate a possibility of Verin being a Dreamer, and Verin's old enough to have probably picked up on most of the tricks of TAR over the years. Could be her, she seems to exist for no other purpose but to provide exposition to very conveluted plot threads. It's the WHY that doesnt make much sense here, Verin doenst have much intrest in the Aiel in general, or Avi in particular.

2: A forsaken. I find it a bit suspect, myself. Some of the actions the Forsaken have taken have been less than effective, but this is just plain silly to be an attack by the Shadow. Why in the world would the Forsaken be interested int he fate of the Aiel? Not buying it, but who knows.

3: It's sort of out there, but I'm leaning toward a remenent of the Jenn Aiel. She looks almost Aiel, but has none of the customes of the modern Aiel. The Jenn are supossed to be extinct, yes, but considereing all the other thing that are going on in this world, is it so out there to theorize a tribe of the Jenn who exist in TAR? The Jenn would play a huge part in showing the remaining Aiel after the LB how to live without their warrior culture (which is too bad, by the way...the world needs more 6' tall warrior redhead chicks with spears in any age). I know: "How in the light could the Jenn have spent all that time in TAR without being noticed?" You've got all those Horny Heroes wandering arround in there since who-knows-when; it's not impossible.

[herid]

there's too many pages of this theory so I'm just going to put mine out there. All the odd events in Avi's wierd meeting with Nakomi make it unlikely it happened in reality. But it seems likely she had drowsed off as people are wont to do when they had spent the whole day walking (or likely running, knowing Avi) through the hot sun all day. That would indicate she was either dragged into TAR by whoever Nakomi actualy is, or Nakomi inserted herself into Avi's dreams. Avi had a little bit of exposure to TAR with the Dreamwalker Wize Ones, but she was by no means an expert, nor fully in control of her dreams. That all seems obvious, the only thing I am unsure on is who Nakomi is. But I have a few for that, too.

 

 

I don't want to debate your other points as this has been discussed to death here (here is my write up on Nakomi) but I do agree that the encounter takes place in TAR. However, nobody had to pull Avi into TAR to do it. Elayne gave Avi a dream ter'angreal when they parted.

 

"Wait," Elayne told them. "Please wait, just a moment." Clutching the dagger, she raced to her dressing room. Sephanie paused in hanging up Aviendha's blue dress to curtsy, but Elayne ignored her and opened the carved lid of her ivory jewelry chest. Sitting atop the necklaces and bracelets and pins in their compartments were a brooch in the shape of a turtle that appeared to be amber and a seated woman, wrapped in her own hair, apparently carved from age-darkened ivory. Both were angreal. Placing the antler-hilted dagger in the chest, she picked up the turtle, and then, impulsively, snatched up the twisted stone dream ring, all red and blue and brown. It seemed to be useless to her since she became pregnant, and if she could manage to weave Spirit, she still had the silver ring, worked in braided spirals, that had been recovered from Ispan....

 

"These are for you," Elayne said, pressing the ring and the brooch into her sister's hand. "Not as gifts. I'm afraid. The White Tower will want them back. But to use as you need."

-KoD, Ch 15

The stone ring does not require channeling so Avi simply had to be touching it when she went to sleep and she would end up in TAR.

[Sharaman]

A few points.

1) Avi is not completely clueless about TAR and Dreamwalking -though she has no talent at them. So she might be expected to recognise being in TAR/ in a dream which is being influenced by external influences from a DWker. That said, she might not, since she's not enormously experienced at it.

2) Keeping a secret like Rhuidean is qualitatively different from keeping a secret like Jenn living in secret.

Every Aiel know about the existence of Rhuidean and that it was verboten to discuss the secret knowledge available there, to go there without permission, etc. That's very different from some Aiel in every clan being secret pacifists and somehow concealing their antipathy to violence and bloodshed for ~2K years in a society, which is utterly comfy with the concept of violence/ bloodshed.

The secret of Rhuidean is also different from the secret of a clan that somehow lives separately from the other Aiel clans in the middle of a Waste where every water hole is a treasure trove that people will kill over.

None of the Jenn surviving within the Waste in secret theories are plausible. They are in fact, far less plausible than the Avi was in a Dream theory.

[Mighty Chin]

Nakomi is the Creator

[Din]

I contend that Aviendha dreamed the whole thing and that the 'extra coals' are the remains of the meal she started cooking right before she fell asleep.

[WhiskyJack]

I contend that Aviendha dreamed the whole thing and that the 'extra coals' are the remains of the meal she started cooking right before she fell asleep.

 

 

Probably the simplest explanation though not necessarily the correct one.

[Din]

Probably the simplest explanation though not necessarily the correct one.

Well I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor :)

[Kageryuu]

The ghost of Tigraine?

 

No reasoning. Just felt right to me. Something of beauty

 

Nice to meet you all

[Din]

The ghost of Tigraine? No reasoning. Just felt right to me. Something of beauty. Nice to meet you all

Welcome to Dragonmount.

[michael.clinton83]

I read through the first 5 or so pages of this and want to apologize if any of this has already been discussed.

 

I can definitely be sold on the Verin theory, I actually want to believe it was her. But one major thing changes this for me... The food she made tasted great. This makes me think that whoever this is was recently in the company of Rand or somewhere Rand had been, and brought the food with them. Assuming this is true, this also indicates that this meeting took place after VoG. Verin died before VoG, so while it doesn't prove that it's not her, it seems to contradict it.

 

As far as motive goes, anyone could speculate a motive. Maybe she realizes that EVERYONE is needed for the last battle. We know she likely had something to do with the White Cloaks via her mysterious letter to Galad... Maybe she asked these questions to get Avi thinking about the Shaido and the rest of the Aiel in the waste. They decided not to follow Rand because they feared what would come of the Aiel after TG. By making Avi think about what the rest of the Aiel would do after TG, she may come up with a way to bring the rest of the Aiel to TG with her.

 

Also, if it was Verin I can understand why her motive wasn't clear. If her motive was obvious, she would have been betraying her oaths to the DO. Like everything else she's done throughout the books, she tends to plant seeds and guide people in very cryptic ways as a means of getting around her oaths, much like any normal Aes Sedai.

 

I think the only other things I could buy are a Jenn Aiel or a Wise One in disguise.

[Dreggs Morlock]

Listen, there are 2 theories getting argued back and forth here, but they are both missing one thing: Respect. Have a little respect for someone else's point of view, wouldja? I think both theories are not out of the realm of possibility, and it seems to me you both spend more time shooting each others full of holes than anything else.

 

The biggest problem with Verin is not the likeness of Nakomi to herself, but the degree of difficulty in finding out the Avi was in the waste, then figuring out exactly WHERE Avi was, and then getting there with all the added niceties Nakomi had to make Avi feel at home, while having a mental gameplan worked out as to how to manipulate Avi into a new realm of thought. I mean... she hasn't seen Avi in months, how would she know exactly where avi was mentally when it came to the future? Sometimes, you have to get beyond the "COULD this happen" and ask, "Is it really all that likely?" If it was Verin, RJ was stretching here. And for the record, I DO think this was part of RJ's work, mainly because BS has been wrapping up loose ends, not creating more. To do something like this on his own dime seems... well, it seems out of character. =)

 

I feel the most comfortable with either a "Trick" (and I have NO proof for this) that is worked on every apprentice that goes to become a wise One, which explains why Amys and Co. insisted Avi start from cold Rocks, or the "creator lends her thoughts" sorta deal, done in the style of a spirit guide. It reads right with those the best for me; nothing falls out of place. Amys was my first thought, but I just don't see her giving some of the answers the were given to Avi. But most of all, it was this line that throws most of the "known characters" out the window for me:

"I cannot answer your question, apprentice for it is not my place to give this truth."

 

This certainly sounds as if there are RULES she must follow in regards to the meeting with Avi, doesn't it? Maybe "rules" is too official of a word to use to describe the sentence, but it smacks of guidelines, or traditions, maybe. "This truth" has everything to do with Nakomi, but she doesn't feel like she has the authority or right to give avi the details? That sentence, in my opinion, will tell the tale. If you can figure out what Nakomi means, you can figure out who she is.

 

Edited for 3:30am bad spelling

[BKVMC]

GOing afield here but on rereads i think its possible that nakomi was an appearance of the Creator.

[Kahsm]

GOing afield here but on rereads i think its possible that nakomi was an appearance of the Creator.

 

Well, we're very much led to believe the creator is 100% hands off. And I don't think we've seen anything to believe otherwise. And even if this changed, why would it appear to Aviendha? She's not the CoL and not even Ta'veren.

[Dreggs Morlock]

The Creator says in all caps "I will take no part." in the first book... plus we have a lot of RJ quotes tell us that the Creator cannot be looked upon as a ally to anyone on the Light side as far as the Last Battle is concerned. The fact is, I see the Creator not fighting or destroying anything created as one thing, but giving nudges to things S/He cares about something else entirely.

 

The destruction of a race of people that once held a significant role in creation, nature, peace and love (and all that jazz) might be important for the creator to attempt to "help" if it were possible. It was like a Hippy Commune before Lanfear looked for a different power, after all... thats what I'm referring to when I say "significant role". The Creator would know, since S/He has seen the wheel's full rotation MANY times, that Avi is important, and she might need a little "nudge" to get the Arches to show her watch she needs to see.

 

Is it REALLY that much of a change from how RJ fed us this story?

[Dreggs Morlock]

Where have we been EVER told that the Creator would be 100% hands off? Kael is one of many people I've seen that believes this, and as I've said in my previous post, I know specifically of the first book thing, plus things RJ has referred to in interviews... was there a specific interview where he said, "The Creator will not be involved in ANYTHING for anyone." or something similar?