Mat's Arc

[Crossroad]

I don't think any of yous will ever be happy, I enjoyed the book from cover to cover and Matt was Great.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Considering that it was an Aes Sedai killer - at a time with things like deathgates and whatnot - being able to use a gateway to simply kill it seems too easy.

 

Having Semirhage kill the entire Seanchan Imperial Court offreakingscreen and Graendal kidnap the Sh'putzes offreakingscreen was too easy. We at least got to see how the gholam was dealt with, even if the method was wrong according to quotes from Jordan.

[TheTuninator]

Guys, I really doubt RJ wouldn't have outlined how he wanted a villain as terrifying and pivotal as the gholam dealt with.

[beaverensis]

so in response to speculation about mat losing his eye . . .

 

i think this has been wrapped up pretty well. we knew he'd give up half the light of the world. there are some SERIOUS odin/loki archetypes going on with mat (particularly in ToM when he's listening to rumors about himself in the city; hung on the tree for nine days, association with ravens - Prince of Ravens, Lord of Luck). i think that RJ wanted to drive home some ideas about who/what constitutes a legend and how those stores pass from age to age. to me, it just seems like your supposed to draw these conclusions. like artur hawkwing...

 

but at the same time, would it be great if having an eye from a ta'veren let those nasty snakes and foxes literally "keep an eye on the world"?

[TalonSpiritCat]

The Mat letter was hilarious. I can easily see him writing it that badly to play up the poor opinion the Wondergirls have of him.

 

Elayne even comments that they need to watch Mat around the serving girls and the female Guards.

[Mr. Micawber]

Re: Noal

 

It is heavily, heavily implied by Elan Morin that Jain Charin, perhaps unknowingly at first, operated as one of his chief agents. Indeed, my feeling is that Cowan Fairheart's capture, which occurred after it was already too late to save Malkier, may have been designed by Elan Morin.

 

Furthermore, this makes sense as Elan Morin was definitely freed substantially earlier than the other Chosen, and he could possibly have been in one of his pre-completely freed cycles - even if he wasn't out of jail yet - during the fall of Malkier. However, the earliest we can be *sure* Elan Morin was operating was the better part of decades before the start of the series, when he plucked Alviarin out of the Council of Thirteen to be head of the Black Ajah.

 

Regardless, we know from Elan Morin's own testimony - which subsequent information has shown to be correct, to quote Obi Wan, "from a certain point of view" - that he tricked Noal into doing some really nasty scheisse.

 

But when you think about the kind of life Noal led, as an explorer and writer, the only thing that really sticks out in my mind is the possibility of being Cowan Fairheart's collaborator in the fall of Malkier, which itself may have been orchestrated purely to obtain a certain cousin of a certain Warder we happen to know well to turn him into the Shadow's best hitman.

 

And the advantage of this interpretation is that it would explain why he told Mat to let one of his countrymen know about it - even though to all appearances Noal was a hero in the catastrophe.

[bubbers]

ashandri as the BUT, not unnoticed, and doesn't make sense anyway. if it was part of the bargain, why take him outside instead of keeping him? if it wasn't, why give it to him? It'd be sweet if mat used it to go back with an army to clean up their foot hold on randland.

 

his gags and the letter he wrote, awesome

 

noal left behind, darn, but oh well, just like whats his name in TGH, how else are we going to save darkfriends we like. wonder if thom will write a book as a sequal to jain's, aside from him probably writing a ballad or something?

 

oliver being a psycho? ya he was a little off, but who wouldn't be in his shoes? him being a kid and having all the not-normal stuff happening around him would make him not normal

 

so is mat not gonna make it to the big meeting?

 

is he gonna make it to the trolloc attack on camelyn?

 

rand has wounds, mat has one now, is perrins leg gonna be something like that soon? maybe that should be better said on the perrin arc thread, oh well

 

mat really needs to go back and deal with tuon, because the seanchan numbers keep magically increasing after each defeat, just like everyone else's nations keep doing

 

hmm, aviendha's future visions say the seanchan don't get dragons for 2 or 3 generations from now, so does mat never go live with them? seems he never gives them the secret if he does, which is odd, as everyone knows that if tuon has mat around, she'll use him to general her armies and he'll want every advantage in battle that he can get. so does he die before really getting back to his wife, or do they just see each other on holidays and he stays with the mainlanders otherwise? maybe he stays with the other nations because he really does think she'd make him a dacoval if he went to anyplace where she has more authority than him, so maybe he never fights with the seanchan forces

 

if the dragons get into the DO's forces, I don't see them having time to create many, or any of them, as they don't have any nations belfounders or resources to do it, unless they actually captured some of the borderland countries in the current attack.

 

we have mat and gwayn, mat thinking of how to fight blind, and gwayn finding it beneficial to do so, maybe we'll see a new level of blademastery arising?

 

the copies of mats medallion? I could see the shadow wanting to copy those faster than the dragons, any ideas when we'll see those pop up in the next volume, and around who's necks? good guys, and bad guys?

 

is the band of the red hand, the half elayne has, gonna be at the meeting?

 

the band rushing in to save oliver, gonna be disastrous, or heroic victory? is oliver going to be heroic, tragic, or just a device in the fight?

 

is elaynes deal with mat going to mean more than the obvious things we've seen shown in the books so far?

 

when and who are we going to see first try to manipulate mat/tuon's marriage to end/start/win the war with the seanchan? no one's seemed to mention it yet

 

oh ya, and why not make spears/arrows/other weapons instead of exact copies of the foxhead to take care of the gholam? elayne said the only thing that mattered was the size, not the shape

[slacker123]

Perhaps only trollocs and myrddraal are affected that way, or perhaps the skimming gateway is different in some fashion. Perhaps it's the spatial displacement of Travelling that kills them, and the gholam didn't really move anywhere. Still, a bit odd.

 

It always seemed to me that the Ways and Waygates are Skimming made permanent and given defined routes. Also, the gholam looks more like an android/robot to me than other Shadowspawn, who are twisted, but still living creatures.

 

On the Q&A thread is a report of someone asking about this at a book signing. Apparently the gholam isn't actually shadowspawn, so is thus not harmed by gateways. I presume that means the gholam is a construct of some sort.

 

This actually makes sense because Warders can sense shadowspawn, yet, from all indications, Lan didn't detect the gholam during the fight over the Bowl of the Winds at the end of ACoS.

 

-- dwn

 

All living constructs of power die if they are put through gates. Nyms can't use Gates even though they aren't darkside.

The gholaqm isn't shadowspawn in the sense that it isn't "born" - it's a first generation construct.

Trollocs, draghkar etc are SS because while the original DNA was melded using TP/OP, subsequent generations were reproduced by natural birth.

(BTW, Lan may also have failed to sense it because he was ko-ed by the linked BA in the opening moments of the scrap in the Rahad. )

 

Construct or not, the gholam apparently isn't shadowspawn, and therefore wasn't killed by going through a gateway. Since I brought up the question above, I just wanted to point out the answer given in the Q&A thread.

 

-- dwn

 

uh don't have the book, not sure what the problem with the gholam is...but i do remember mat asking the AS if the place the gholam fell goes on forever....the gholam doesn't have to die, he'll just keep falling forever

[Jaelan]

So...Moiraine is supposed to save the world (according to the answer Mat received on why he had to give up half the light of the world). I'm sorry if I missed this in another thread/reply, but what is she supposed to do?

 

Min's viewing says the world's fate relies on Moiraine being around at some point. My only guess is that she's pivotal in convincing Egwene (and thus Egwene's supporters) that breaking the seals is indeed the correct course of action. Considering the end of the book in Rand's POV where he states that the 'large meeting' is not so much going to be a discussion, as it is going to be a list of his demands to the world in exchange for him going to Shayol Ghul.

 

Back on topic, I liked Mat this time around. I enjoyed the battle with the gholam, especially the vengeance call in the Old Tongue. GJ Team Jordan.

[Tom Sawyer]

Wait a sec. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the gholam was Shadowspawn. Shouldn't it have died the moment it stepped through the gateway?

[Cyf]

uh don't have the book, not sure what the problem with the gholam is...but i do remember mat asking the AS if the place the gholam fell goes on forever....the gholam doesn't have to die, he'll just keep falling forever

 

It won't die from hitting the ground.

 

It apparently needs to eat. Eventually it'll starve to death.

[Zefram]

First and foremost, I thought Mat was much better characterized in this book than in TGS. Along with everything else that has been posted, I especially liked his new method for justifying the admiration of a pretty face.

 

"She had short golden hair and nice eyes. He noticed that purely for Thom's sake."

 

 

Here are my predictions:

 

Moraine is obviously needed for the sake of the world. Whenever Rand goes over the list of women who have died at his hands, she is always first. I think that she will have a role in TLB that helps Rand achieve internal peace at a crucial moment. Rand will see her, similarly as with Liah, and it will make him take a step back and really analyze his situation. I also like the idea that she will help convince Egwene's intervention party that breaking the seals must be done.

 

Mat's loss of vision must play a larger role in the remainder of the story. Early on in the series Egwene has a Dreaming of him balancing his eye on a scale. When Mat's eye was removed, vapors of 'red and white' seemed to stem from him. I think that (and maybe partially because Mat is my favorite character) Mat will not feel as much pain from here on out because the Eelfinn already fed off of it. As to the significance, I can only guess, but I just have a feeling that it will benefit him greatly. He also idly wonders how Tuon will think of him now, which could lead to fulfillment of prophecy --?

 

Tuon (or Fortuona if she must be called that) will be in the link with Rand and Nynaeve. I have been considering this theory since we learned Tuon can learn to channel in CoT. Tuon mentions that the Dragon Reborn must bow before the Crystal Throne, yet the Karaethon Cycle states 'He shall bind the nine moons to serve him'. My thoughts are that Tuon, acting as a sul'dam, will weave the flows of Nynaeve and Rand (who will be holding the unstable Callandor). Rand can trust Tuon to release him after TLB because she is Mat's wife. She shows signs of mutual love with Mat at sections in TGS, which will keep her to her word.

 

 

I wished Mat's sections in general were made out to be much less than they should have been. I certainly would not have minded an extra chapter or two of Mat and Birgitte carousing in a tavern, or even more chapters regarding the ToG rescue. Hopefully the next book will involve a lot more Mat than this book did.

 

I guarantee you that Rand will NEVER EVER allow himself to be bound by a-dam. Never. Perhaps before Semirhage, but not after. NOT EVER. Even with him being back to light side. And Tuon is not exactly trustworthy on this point, right now she is into lets capture all marath'damane. In TGS she may show signs of love with Mat, but all she thinks about getting him back and controlling him - read that section again, she thinks of him same as Rand - they mustn't run loose, must be under her control, getting Mat and capturing Aes Sedai will weaken Rand for her. Right now, Mat's relationship with Tuon is still not that of equals, he shows bravado but she always was in control.

 

Did she ever release or was willing to release damane (unless physically forced to by Mat when in his captivity)? She is not in captivity now and all she thinks about is capturing and controlling Rand and marath'damane. What made you think that she will release him and Nynaeve or will even bother swearing an oath of doing so, while in her element?

 

Besides having her leash Rand and Nynaeve is not "binding Nine Moons" its forcing Dragon to kneel and binding him! Besides that time has come and gone, Tuon as "Daughter of Nine Moons" is gone, there is only Fortuona, Empress of Seandar.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wait a sec. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the gholam was Shadowspawn. Shouldn't it have died the moment it stepped through the gateway?

 

Ayup, gholam a construct do be. Made by the Shadow it do be. Even today's Trollocs, Myrrdraal, Drakhar, etal., born and bred descendants of the original constructed version cannot go through gateways. Mr. gholam either should have dispelled the gateway or died on the spot, your choice do take.

[TheOtherDave]

Wait a sec. I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but the gholam was Shadowspawn. Shouldn't it have died the moment it stepped through the gateway?

 

Ayup, gholam a construct do be. Made by the Shadow it do be. Even today's Trollocs, Myrrdraal, Drakhar, etal., born and bred descendants of the original constructed version cannot go through gateways. Mr. gholam either should have dispelled the gateway or died on the spot, your choice do take.

I see at least four choices here:

1) Entering a Gateway kills shadowspawn & constructed beings instantly -- Oops, that part will have to be re-written so that the Gholam falls in after Mat yells at it, or Mat doesn't yell at it and just kicks/pushes/whatever the Gholam in, or Mat cuts off its head with a medallion, etc.

2) Exiting a Gateway kills shadowspawn & constructed beings instantly -- No problem, the Gholam didn't do that.

3) Traveling from one Gateway to another Gateway kills shadowspawn & constructed beings instantly -- No problem, the Gholam didn't do that.

4) Using Gateways kills shadowspawn & constructed beings, but it's more of a poison or sickness thing, not an instant kill -- If you say that it takes the same amount of time for them to die as they spent between the entry and exit Gateways (or something similar), or if you allow different rules concerning Skimming and Traveling*, no problem. The Gholam hasn't been shown to live longer than it took for Mat to yell at him, kick him off the platform, and the Gateway to close.

 

Did Robert Jordan ever say which case it is?

 

*Death Gates suggest that Traveling would be an instant kill. I'm not certain they prove it, though. Has anyone actually stated that Death Gates are simply the Gateways used for Traveling with no modifications to the weaves other than what is necessary for them to move?

[Jaelan]

*snip* My thoughts are that Tuon, acting as a sul'dam, will weave the flows of Nynaeve and Rand (who will be holding the unstable Callandor). *snip*

 

 

Doesn't forming a circle with a man (below 13) require the man to be in control of the weaves?

[maxofox]

No, durring the cleansing the AS had control of the circles.

 

You guys think Egwene will give Mat a hard time about getting his horn back?

[Nimic]

Isn't it over 13 people that a man is required to be in charge?

[dwn]

No, durring the cleansing the AS had control of the circles.

 

You guys think Egwene will give Mat a hard time about getting his horn back?

 

Hard to say. I think Egwene would actually trust Mat well enough, but she'd likely want the Tower to retain control of the Horn. Given his message via Teslyn, it should be a fun scene between them.

 

However it works out, I -really- hope Joline is somehow involved. Mat's awesome, and all, but it would be nine ways of hilarious if he somehow ended up bonded to Joline.

 

-- dwn

[waffle]

You guys think Egwene will give Mat a hard time about getting his horn back?

 

Of course she will.

[Guest Jatam]

Hey all,

I'm a long time viewer of the site, I love reading all the theories and ideas floating around. Haven’t signed up before because my brother and fellow WoT fanatic spends a great deal of time on here and usually voices the theories or questions I put to him, but as he isn't available I have to do my own dirty work.

 

Anyway, onto my question, anyone have any theories or reasoning for the whole duel game with Mat in the Tower and Olver winning the game of Snakes and foxes against Talmanes? I know a few have mentioned their being linked somehow, but why and how? I'm not coming up with anything.

 

 

Sorry bout character spelling, I don't have the book on me.

[Boundless]

Mat + sack full of badgers = SO MUCH WIN.

 

Dude i laughed SO hard at this. And by that I mean both your comment and that actual part of the book. I reallly can't wait to see how Perrin, Mat, and Rand interact when they are all finally reunited. Overall Mats character was a big step forward from the last book and I personally don't fault Sanderson for mat's apparent 'flaws'. Mat is probably one the most dynamic characters in the book. THE most unpredictable...one minute dicing the next minute spitting out some witty advice to leading a charge into battle. For Sanderson to come into a series like this (i don't feel i need to break down why this series would be hard to step into) and finish it...its got to be stressful! It's hard enough writing your OWN books..but to finish a series thats been 2 decades in the making...I am in no way jealous of the task in front of him. So in regards to the letter..eh yeah it was a little flimsy coming from Mat..but I think when you take a step back and look at everything Sanderson has to deal with..from Tor and editors and even down to us, the fans, hes got his hands full. Give him a break on this one..it was a

tiny part of the book..not even a full page..but i digress..this is not worth bringing back up in this thread haha.

 

In regards to the Gholum situation. I LOVED the way they took him out. The whole scene was pretty intense but the gateway contradiction does dampen it a bit. Is it a mere lapse of thought by the people involved? I would hate to see that. But for me one thing pops out..is skimming the same as a gateway? To me, and i believe someone else said this, that skimming and traveling were diff. You hear of people tying off the weaves for gateways yes? but they never really mention what happens to the skimming 'tunnels'after people are done with them(feel free to crush that statement as there are quite a few of you that are walking encyclopedias of the WoT world) and skimming itself bores through the pattern right? I can not remember the book they stated this in but I do remember it being said. So couldn't it be said that once the skimming 'tunnel' was woven that it ceased being straight up the OP..and maybe T'A'R takes over from there? the platform itself i think is from T'A'R and not wrought of the one power, and the void is well...a void. Or I could be 100 percent wrong and about 15 of you are going to state so. Either way my 2 cents.

 

As soon as I read Verin's letter I wanted to punch mat...ugh. But then it does make things quite interesting! Also poor Elayne! All that time stressing over how to take the sun throne the moment she leaves a ton of trollocs just appear and well..do what trollocs do best.

 

Sorry if this is muddled and a bit incoherent..its late here and i'm digging around in forums..never a good call!

[waffle]

As soon as I read Verin's letter I wanted to punch mat...ugh.

 

I wanted to punch Verin. No wait, this is wot. Umm... spank her?

[Evoke]

Regarding the Gholam and unraveling of gateways. It's already been shown that someone with the ability to unravel weaves cast upon them can travel and skim. Matrim does it all the time. When they went to Caemlyn the platform didn't fall away beneath their feet as Matrim stepped through and onto it. It's only when a weave is cast directly upon one with that ability that they dissolve, which is why Matrim fried when Rhavin's traps were sprung.

 

One possible way of 'killing' the Gholam would be to use the one power to chop it into bits using sheets of steel (carried on flows of air) wide enough that it couldn't just heal the wound as the metal slid through. Another possible way to at least slow the Gholam down would be to rupture the earth beneath his feet.

 

The death of a shadowspawn/construct would most likely befall when they exit said gateway.

[Duskfire]

No, durring the cleansing the AS had control of the circles.

 

You guys think Egwene will give Mat a hard time about getting his horn back?

 

Definetly. She'll give it to him, but she'll give him a lecture on how to use it only when its important, as if Mat is going to start blowing it for the heck of it. She still sees Mat as the same individual she grew up with; even Elayne underestimates him, and she has at least ample experience to see the real Mat.

[FarShainMael]

 

Construct or not, the gholam apparently isn't shadowspawn, and therefore wasn't killed by going through a gateway. Since I brought up the question above, I just wanted to point out the answer given in the Q&A thread.

 

-- dwn

Suspect there's a contradiction there. Maybe an error in reporting.

It isn't SS per se that are not harmed by Gates; it's constructs, whether they're SS or not.

Can't be arsed pulling out quotes but there are a dozen people on this forum who can confirm statements by RJ about this - Terez, Luckers, BBM, etc.

 

Edit:

Actually here - Kod tour

Both sets of following quotes from https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_53c74tbncv

 

Q: Why can't Shadowspawn pass through gateways?

RJ: It's because they're artificial constructs. They can't tolerate the passage.

Q: So would a Nym have the same problem?

RJ: Yes.

Q: How about Ogier?

RJ: No. Ogier are not artificial constructs.

 

and

 

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

 

So the gholam are constructs and they should not be able to pass through Gates.

 

There may be some (perhaps rather desperate!) wiggle room here.. RJ called the gholam a 'creation' not a 'construct'. Could there be a difference?

 

Also: do we need a separate gholam thread?

 

(Apparently not.. see 'requests for new threads' thread')