Mat's Arc

[didymos]

Or did Moridin go there, bring lanfear back and then kill her?

 

Part of her punishment for going off-script, maybe. The DO, once he's got your soul, can take his sweet time transmigrating you. I imagine he could do some quite unpleasant things to someone's soul he's snagged.

[nleseul]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

Why? Considering that Lanfear was brought back in a new body, one must assume that the DO knew of her demise, and thus Moridin knew as well. What reason to get her old body? Did Moridin need Lanfears old body for some... khm sinister purpose?

 

Or did Moridin go there, bring lanfear back and then kill her?

 

Not saying it wasn´t Moridin. Can´t see any of the other big players going to there and Moiraine not recognizing them (Demandred perhaps?). But i don´t understand why he would go there.

 

I think it's reasonable that the DO wasn't immediately aware of Lanfear's death—and didn't have her soul immediately available to put in a new body—because it happened in an inaccessible Finnland. Possibly, much like with Lan's bond breaking, the connection Lanfear had to the DO was broken when the doorway melted, and he just assumed that she had died in some way that didn't allow resurrection.

 

A while later, reports would have come in from DFs in Cairhien about the fight at the docks, and the DO would have realized that it might be possible to retrieve her (and punish her!). So he sends Slayer (or Moridin) off to fetch her, only to find that she actually had died while being "out of contact."

 

It's not too clear how this scenario allows the DO to then get her soul to put in Cyndane, though, unless Slayer (or Moridin) was allowed to make that as one of three requests. Depends on how harsh the Foxes are with things touching the Shadow.

[didymos]

 

I think it's reasonable that the DO wasn't immediately aware of Lanfear's death—and didn't have her soul immediately available to put in a new body—because it happened in an inaccessible Finnland. Possibly, much like with Lan's bond breaking, the connection Lanfear had to the DO was broken when the doorway melted, and he just assumed that she had died in some way that didn't allow resurrection.

 

A while later, reports would have come in from DFs in Cairhien about the fight at the docks, and the DO would have realized that it might be possible to retrieve her (and punish her!). So he sends Slayer (or Moridin) off to fetch her, only to find that she actually had died while being "out of contact."

 

It doesn't work that way. The DO can't lollygag and decide to grab a soul whenever. He has a rather limited window, which is why balefire works (unless it's very, very weak balefire). At the most, going by Rahvin, we're talking 15 or 20 minutes.

[waffle]

It doesn't work that way. The DO can't lollygag and decide to grab a soul whenever. He has a rather limited window, which is why balefire works (unless it's very, very weak balefire). At the most, going by Rahvin, we're talking 15 or 20 minutes.

 

He can´t grab a soul from the past. So balefire of any strength should work effectively to deny him a soul. If it burns the thread away for even a millisecond into the past.

[didymos]

It doesn't work that way. The DO can't lollygag and decide to grab a soul whenever. He has a rather limited window, which is why balefire works (unless it's very, very weak balefire). At the most, going by Rahvin, we're talking 15 or 20 minutes.

 

He can´t grab a soul from the past. So balefire of any strength should work effectively to deny him a soul. If it burns the thread away for even a millisecond into the past.

 

He can't grab it because balefire closed his small window of opportunity before he knew he needed to grab anything. Use a very tiny amount, and the window won't be closed. Why? 'Cause RJ said so:

 

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

[waffle]

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small.

 

<-- bit*hslapped

[Sharaman]

Why would Moridin go to the finns?

 

To retrieve Lanfear.

 

The destruction of the Tear doorway is interesting. Mesaana had tried to enter that storeroom and gave up because of how nastily Rand had trapped it. Seems unlikely that anyone entered that way.

 

Questions are: does a trap/ward against entry into the storeroom prevent exit from the storeroom? Could that gateway be destroyed entirely from the Finn's side? If so, how would whomever destroyed it get back out of Finnland?

Whoever retrieved Lanfear had to make a bargain. You cannot enter from Tear and make a bargain. The treaties restrict you to asking questions if you enter from Tear.

Since we don't know of any other portals, one must assume the entry came from ToG.

The Tear portal was presumably smashed to prevent anybody else asking useful questions of the Finns.

So assuming entry from ToG

Bargain #1: Gimme Lanfear/ her corpse

#2 :Let me leave unharmed with above corpse

#3 Destroy Tear portal

Payment??

 

As to why - what follows is entirely speculative

Lanfear's bargains include informing the Shadow that she lives.

Moridin arrives.

Discovers she's totally drained of power and dying/ dead.

Kills her (either after getting out/ before)

Transmigration occurs, she needs healing to recover channeling ability. (We know from a MAFO this is necessary for a channeler who's lost OP in a transmigration).

This is done by a BA who knows Nyn's weaves.

[WhiskyJack]

^^Are you assuming that being drained of one power is similar to being stilled (or in this case partially stilled)? SO nynaeve can fix Moiraine now? Or Flinn?

[Byzantine279]

Sharaman, If it was slayer or Moridin (the only two real candidates) it is likely they could break the treaty and get away with it.

 

Lanfear was NOT stilled, her power was weakened by the Finn's. By all appearances she has not been healed, and there is a good possibility she cannot be healed.

[Shimmer]

It would be most likely Moridin who went to retrieve Lanfear seeing as he holds her cour'souvra, however it's equally possible that he sent his minion to retrieve her for him...but still leaning towards Moridin at the moment as he isn't the most trusting of people.

 

PS: It saddened me immensely when Mat lost his eye...it almost felt like a physical blow through the words on the paper to myself..I was in a state of disbelief for what seemed like an Age.

[Sharaman]

Sharaman, If it was slayer or Moridin (the only two real candidates) it is likely they could break the treaty and get away with it.

 

Lanfear was NOT stilled, her power was weakened by the Finn's. By all appearances she has not been healed, and there is a good possibility she cannot be healed.

 

If you entered by the Tear gate / or Rhudiean portal, you would never be allowed to go to the other chamber. You enter that chamber (questins/ bonds) and exit from that chamber.

I don't think there's any textual reason or quotes to assume that the treaty can be broken by Moridin/ Slayer anymore than it could be broken by Lanfear.

 

Lanfear would have been stilled by Moridin himself if draining the power cannot be healed.

Lanfear died for sure because she's been transmigrated.

Cyndane is still among the strongest channelers around

We know (check the MAFO thread on the General board) that a transmigrated channeler who has suffered a loss of channeling ability due to being stilled has to be healed. (If they die and are reborn normally this is not necessary)

The simplest way to give Lanfear back as much power as possible, would be to (if required kill her). transmigrate, still her, heal her.

Not necessarily in that order.

[dwn]

Perhaps Moridin demanded Lanfear's release but neglected to say he wanted her alive, so the Eelfinn killed her and gave him the body just to spite him. Moridin may be smarter than the other Forsaken, but anyone could mess up bargaining with the Foxes.

 

-- dwn

[didymos]

Perhaps Moridin demanded Lanfear's release but neglected to say he wanted her alive, so the Eelfinn killed her and gave him the body just to spite him. Moridin may be smarter than the other Forsaken, but anyone could mess up bargaining with the Foxes.

 

-- dwn

 

I kinda hope that's the official explanation. It's the most amusing possibility I've seen so far:

 

Moridin: She belongs to the Great Lord. I demand you return her.

 

Eelfinn: OK. *stab* What else?

 

Moridin: Hang on. I'm having anger management issues at the moment....alright, I'm cool. I'm cool. Right, so, I had Be'lal work this baby up a while back. Just in case. It's a comprehensive 1200 page document describing the exit you will be providing me. He even notarized it. Don't forget to read the Appendices.

 

Eelfinn: *look simultaneously horrified and irritated* We're not reading all that crap, you @#$%^# killjoy. Quite frankly, we'd rather you leave anyway. Don't take it the wrong way: it's not you, it's us. So stipulated: one egress, no tricks. Can we wrap this up now? We have to wash our hair and some..other, um, important stuff.

 

Moridin: *smirks* I demand.....a shrubbery!

[gengrecko]

The part of the Mat arc that kinda made me angry is that Noal died for no good reason. If Mat had only figured out that his ashrandei(sp?) was the key a little sooner Noal would not have needed to die :( I liked Noal.

[gengrecko]

Oh and to anyone saying camelyn is screwed...its fine. First off talmanes and the band are there, if they can get to the Dragons quickly enough they can rip through the trollocs like tissue paper. There are also a bunch of other mercenary bands that, while not signed under the queen like the band, I am sure arent going to stand by and let Camelyn fall to the Trollocs.

[FarShainMael]

ISTR that the Waygate isn't actually inside the city walls, is that right?

[didymos]

ISTR that the Waygate isn't actually inside the city walls, is that right?

 

No. It was in some shop's basement in the New City.

[Yehosh]

thinking back on Mat fighting the Golum with that big stick of his (and not dying, an amazing feat), I was reflecting back to him sparring with Galad and Gawyn back in book 3 when they were all in the White Tower.

 

With Gawyn nowadays spanking ninjas around and Galad beating a renowned sword masters like Valda, it'd be an awesome rematch.

[r_bhatt93]

thinking back on Mat fighting the Golum with that big stick of his (and not dying, an amazing feat), I was reflecting back to him sparring with Galad and Gawyn back in book 3 when they were all in the White Tower.

 

With Gawyn nowadays spanking ninjas around and Galad beating a renowned sword masters like Valda, it'd be an awesome rematch.

 

Mat would win. Why? Because hes sweet.

 

 

 

 

But my question is, why isn't Mat like Lord high commander general captain bloody commander in chief of the armies of the light yet?

I mean he is the best field commander ever to live, with the combination of many of the best.

So I think he should move up from commander of the Band, and become supreme commander (under Rand probably) of ALL the armies of the Light

This includes the Seanchan, because as Prince of the Ravens I think he will be able to call the Seanchan to arms as well.

[WhiteJoker]

thinking back on Mat fighting the Golum with that big stick of his (and not dying, an amazing feat), I was reflecting back to him sparring with Galad and Gawyn back in book 3 when they were all in the White Tower.

 

With Gawyn nowadays spanking ninjas around and Galad beating a renowned sword masters like Valda, it'd be an awesome rematch.

 

Mat would win. Why? Because hes sweet.

 

 

 

 

But my question is, why isn't Mat like Lord high commander general captain bloody commander in chief of the armies of the light yet?

I mean he is the best field commander ever to live, with the combination of many of the best.

So I think he should move up from commander of the Band, and become supreme commander (under Rand probably) of ALL the armies of the Light

This includes the Seanchan, because as Prince of the Ravens I think he will be able to call the Seanchan to arms as well.

He hasn't been around for a while since he's been off playing with the Seanchan and effectively out of touch for the main forces. On top of this, it wasn't until relatively recently that he didn't want to run away from Rand and the responsibility of being ta'avaran. Also, while they know Mat's a military genius, Mat's been trying to hide his ability so they don't know the full extent of his tactical ability. They know he's good but he hasn't effectively done or said anything in the presence of the others to indicate that he's better than, say, Bashere. Mat only reluctantly started the Band because the soldiers he wandered across and lead during the siege of Cairhein wouldn't leave him alone. How do you think he'd have felt if they suddenly saddled him with a massive force that wasn't personally loyal to him? Considering how often he talks about running...

 

With regards to the Seanchan, that requires him to get in touch with them, and while he may be the Prince of Ravens and consort of the Empress, he's still ranked below her. If Tuon doesn't want to commit the Seanchan to the Dragon's cause, they aren't going anywhere.

[Guest Ishu161]

Is it just me or does Mat has to do too much in aMoL?

 

1. I assume going back to Camelyn, to find it in ruins, or if he's there sooner, join the fighting.

 

2. If Moiraine is still with him, then I think he'll go with her to meet Rand. I think he'll meet him at least once before the final battle.(Perrin is already with Rand).

 

3. Find a way to, and contact Tuon. He won't simply march over and announce he's the prince of Ravens, that's not his style.

 

4. I think I read somewhere about him and Tuon going to the Seanchan continent to stabilize her rule there? not sure about this.

 

5.Convince everyone of his abilities as a general. Whatever else, I don't think they're simply gonna say, 'oh hey, you have all those memories of those battles? come and take command of the forces of light!' (I assume this will be done in some sort of battle,not on a small scale....maybe Camylin itself?)

 

6. Go to the white tower and take back the Horn of Valere...he gave a message to Joline and company for the Amrylin that he was coming (which was AWESOME)

 

7. COMMAND the army of the light with presumably Bashere and Rodel at his side...assuming none of them has fallen earlier in another battle....and kick some Trolloc ass in Shayol Ghul.

 

8. Keep an eye on Olver while he can doing all that other stuff....that kid is creepy...maybe not a sociopath, but still creepy sometimes.

 

So, After all this time, lying low in Ebou Dar....and then almost a book worth only his journey back...he's gonna be the thick of it all again...whether he likes it or not.

 

My question...is it too much for him to do in one book?

[Deadsy]

Is it just me or does Mat have to do too much in aMoL?

 

1. I assume going back to Camelyn, to find it in ruins, or if he's there sooner, join the fighting.

 

2. If Moiraine is still with him, then I think he'll go with her to meet Rand. I think he'll meet him at least once before the final battle.(Perrin is already with Rand).

 

3. Find a way to, and contact Tuon. He won't simply march over and announce he's the prince of Ravens, that's not his style.

 

4. I think I read somewhere about him and Tuon going to the Seanchan continent to stabilize her rule there? not sure about this.

 

5.Convince everyone of his abilities as a general. Whatever else, I don't think they're simply gonna say, 'oh hey, you have all those memories of those battles? come and take command of the forces of light!' (I assume this will be done in some sort of battle,not on a small scale....maybe Camylin itself?)

 

6. Go to the white tower and take back the Horn of Valere...he gave a message to Joline and company for the Amrylin that he was coming (which was AWESOME)

 

7. COMMAND the army of the light with presumably Bashere and Rodel at his side...assuming none of them has fallen earlier in another battle....and kick some Trolloc ass in Shayol Ghul.

 

8. Keep an eye on Olver while he can doing all that other stuff....that kid is creepy...maybe not a sociopath, but still creepy sometimes.

 

My question...is it too much for him to do in one book?

 

Most of these could end up combined or take one chapter to deal with. Olver shouldn't be on there at all. He never takes up much room in the story.

 

He doesn't have to convince anyone of his ability to general. If Rand says he's in charge, he's in charge. The first time he took command he just did it and they followed a couple paragraphs later. The Seanchan are attacking the White Tower, and Mat needs the Horn which is still in the White Tower. A great opportunity to knock out two birds with one stone, if you ask me. While he's at it, he can bump into the der'sul'dam who will recognize him as the Prince of the Ravens, and ask to be Travelled to Tuon and have a talk with her. "I have the Horn of Valere, the Dragon Reborn wants to kneel to you at the Field of Merrilor, don't make me kidnap you again."

 

Obviously it won't happen that quick, but most of your list can be condensed.

[Guest Ishu161]

Is it just me or does Mat have to do too much in aMoL?

 

1. I assume going back to Camelyn, to find it in ruins, or if he's there sooner, join the fighting.

 

2. If Moiraine is still with him, then I think he'll go with her to meet Rand. I think he'll meet him at least once before the final battle.(Perrin is already with Rand).

 

3. Find a way to, and contact Tuon. He won't simply march over and announce he's the prince of Ravens, that's not his style.

 

4. I think I read somewhere about him and Tuon going to the Seanchan continent to stabilize her rule there? not sure about this.

 

5.Convince everyone of his abilities as a general. Whatever else, I don't think they're simply gonna say, 'oh hey, you have all those memories of those battles? come and take command of the forces of light!' (I assume this will be done in some sort of battle,not on a small scale....maybe Camylin itself?)

 

6. Go to the white tower and take back the Horn of Valere...he gave a message to Joline and company for the Amrylin that he was coming (which was AWESOME)

 

7. COMMAND the army of the light with presumably Bashere and Rodel at his side...assuming none of them has fallen earlier in another battle....and kick some Trolloc ass in Shayol Ghul.

 

8. Keep an eye on Olver while he can doing all that other stuff....that kid is creepy...maybe not a sociopath, but still creepy sometimes.

 

My question...is it too much for him to do in one book?

 

Most of these could end up combined or take one chapter to deal with. Olver shouldn't be on there at all. He never takes up much room in the story.

 

He doesn't have to convince anyone of his ability to general. If Rand says he's in charge, he's in charge. The first time he took command he just did it and they followed a couple paragraphs later. The Seanchan are attacking the White Tower, and Mat needs the Horn which is still in the White Tower. A great opportunity to knock out two birds with one stone, if you ask me. While he's at it, he can bump into the der'sul'dam who will recognize him as the Prince of the Ravens, and ask to be Travelled to Tuon and have a talk with her. "I have the Horn of Valere, the Dragon Reborn wants to kneel to you at the Field of Merrilor, don't make me kidnap you again."

 

Obviously it won't happen that quick, but most of your list can be condensed.

 

 

I figured it was all gonna happen in combos.

Okay, if Rand says he's in charge, then he is. But After continuously seeing the theme of proving themselves to those who doubt you (Egwene) and fighting to take your place (Elayne), I don't think this will happen that easily. Will the great captains follow him simply because Rand says he's an excellent general? But I'm not that much concerned about that. We'll get to see plenty of bloodbath...Mat will most likely earn his respect.

btw,quite impressive how you condensed that list ;)

[Duskfire]

I figured it was all gonna happen in combos.

Okay, if Rand says he's in charge, then he is. But After continuously seeing the theme of proving themselves to those who doubt you (Egwene) and fighting to take your place (Elayne), I don't think this will happen that easily. Will the great captains follow him simply because Rand says he's an excellent general? But I'm not that much concerned about that. We'll get to see plenty of bloodbath...Mat will most likely earn his respect.

btw,quite impressive how you condensed that list ;)

 

True, but he would have Bashere backing him up, so that would help alot. All Mat would need to do would come up with a stragedy in about twenty seconds like he did against the shaido and he'll earn everyone elses respect. Really though, I cant see Mat being command of everything. It doesnt really work like that, not as such. I imagine all the great captains and whatnot will have their own areas to defend, and Mat will be in control of the main bulk of the army that heads into Shayol Ghul.

[Hallow]

I still want a chapter dedicated to a "War Council" of sorts where Mat, Bryne, Agelmar, Ituralde and Bashere discuss tactics and strategy for the last battle.