The Black Tower

[saterade]

I think the reason gateways worked for Androl at the beginning of the BT arc is because he wasn't using them to go anywhere. He made a gateway to cut a strap of leather once he realized his shears were gone. Perrin and grady and whatsisname already determined that you can make a gateway to another place INSIDE the dreamspike area, the same way you can jump in TAR to another place inside the purple umbrella, you just can't jump outside of the Circle of Protection-Purple (M:TG anyone?)

 

Also, Taim isn't moridin. Can anyone here really see moridin pretending to be someone else? he's waaaaay too cocky for that. He's the nae'blis for crying out loud. Taim is just another person who is under moridin's influence.

[Sharaman]

The red-veils are described as having "dark eyes." Either Brandon slipped up, serving the DO makes your eyes change colors, or those weren't Aiel. I assumed they were Sharamen, despite being in a location that wouldn't make any sense, or some sort of wild Blight-men.

There's the strange village from the Blight that gets relocated.

Maybe Brandon did slip with the veil coming down and the eyes being dark if he meant them to be turned Aiel.

[dwn]

I think the reason gateways worked for Androl at the beginning of the BT arc is because he wasn't using them to go anywhere. He made a gateway to cut a strap of leather once he realized his shears were gone. Perrin and grady and whatsisname already determined that you can make a gateway to another place INSIDE the dreamspike area, the same way you can jump in TAR to another place inside the purple umbrella, you just can't jump outside of the Circle of Protection-Purple (M:TG anyone?)

 

Actually, Perrin and Grady determined that gateways didn't work at all. Perrin noted that this was different than the rules for shifting around in T'A'R.

 

-- dwn

[Moon Sedai]

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

How the HECK did I miss this? Where did we see This???? I don't even remember her showing up in the book (just finished it last night..)

 

 

[Elend]

I have to wonder if the strength has to do with the Dark One's influence on them somehow. Like he can tweak their abilities, maybe not raising their max power but allowing them to achieve it a bit more quickly.

 

ETA: Of course, if Moridin=Taim then he could just be training them in secret AoL ninjitsu channeling.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Poor Tarna. She was one of my favourite characters. That scene literally made my skin crawl with horror.

Are we sure it's 13x13 and not just some form of unusually crude compulsion?

Can male channelers link with Fades or does it require 13 female channelers to do. If it requires females, the BA is presumably holed up in the BT and that was supposed to be the TAR killing ground for the WT attack. Makes sense actually - entice the AS out of the WT, take them to the BT and then trap them in an unfamiliar place with male channeler backup by using the second Dreamspike.

 

And what's with the Taim acolytes gaining in strength? Is Moridin distributing saidin angreals?

 

How the HECK did I miss this? Where did we see This???? I don't even remember her showing up in the book (just finished it last night..)

 

In Pevera chapter. Gateways. Tarna was one that wanted to leave the BT ASAP, but when Pevera came back, she was totally changed, turned incredibly cold and looking cruel.

 

Also, we see one of Logain's top men 13 x 13. In the chapter Something Wrong, Androl sees Mezar, who was one of the top 3 Logain most trusted, hanging round with Taim's cronies with the same cold eyes and cruel smile.

 

For what it is worth, and this has not been confirmed, but I am certain, we see the same effects in the Red-Veils. Cruel smiles and cold eyes. Male Aiel channelers 13x13.

[Vermillion]

Where did it say more than one person got a power jump. I just remember him saying that one guy had gotten a jump which I assumed meant that it was one of the Forsaken?

[GB]

also where is logain is another mystery.

[Kaveman26]

The Red Veiled Aiel didn't use the One Power that we saw. Now that people are connecting the cold eyes and cruel smile similiarity I am doubting my first thought which was these are the Aiel that were consumed by the Bleakness. Those that simply faded into the night and abandoned clan and sept even throwing down their spears because they could not cope with what was revealed at the Golden Bowl.

[Vermillion]

Actually now that I reread it. I assume the people who learn too fast are dreadlords who already could channel. It makes sense that he would bring them in near the end.

[Cazajay]

I have a feeling Perrin will have a part in helping the channellers get in and out of the BT he did say he needed to investigate why Grady couldn't get a gateway to open there.

It's a shame Perrin destroyed the Dreamspike instead of getting it to Egwene, I think it was originally designed in the War of Shadows to protect a Fortress during a seige from unwanted Dreadlords opening Gateways into your midst. In fact Im sure I read that somewhere before. The Guardians have the same function, but I'm sure Rand's comment to the Borderlanders meant it fails to stop the True Power.

That's basically how Taim is getting in and out of the BT after Dreamspike is activated he is using the TP.

Naeff who Nynaeve healed of his madness is also on his way to the BT in disguise after Rand told him to try and contact Logain.

Logain I think may be in hiding covertly trying to get proof of what's going on to Rand.

[Cazajay]

Were any of you intrigued by Aviendha's visions of the possible future?

I loved how amazing her daughter Padra was at channelling it must have something to do with both parents being channellers.

But I fear Rand will make a huge mistake by agreeing to Fortuona's terms for Peace the Aes Sedai still end up enslaved. They need to find away to counter the a'dam or at least be shown that what they do is wrong..

 

Who was that strange Aeil woman Aviendha met in the waste?

[Sharaman]

I have a feeling Perrin will have a part in helping the channellers get in and out of the BT he did say he needed to investigate why Grady couldn't get a gateway to open there.

It's a shame Perrin destroyed the Dreamspike instead of getting it to Egwene, I think it was originally designed in the War of Shadows to protect a Fortress during a seige from unwanted Dreadlords opening Gateways into your midst. In fact Im sure I read that somewhere before. The Guardians have the same function, but I'm sure Rand's comment to the Borderlanders meant it fails to stop the True Power.

That's basically how Taim is getting in and out of the BT after Dreamspike is activated he is using the TP.

Naeff who Nynaeve healed of his madness is also on his way to the BT in disguise after Rand told him to try and contact Logain.

Logain I think may be in hiding covertly trying to get proof of what's going on to Rand.

There's a key to using the D-Spike. If you know the key ( probably a password weave or maybe you have to wiggle your ears in a certain sequence)you can weave Gates with OP.

Read the scene where Moridin gives the other DSpike to Graendal.

Since M gave the D-Spike to Taim, he would also give the key to Taim so that Taim could Gate in-and-out as he pleased.

[TheAngryDruid]

I have a feeling Perrin will have a part in helping the channellers get in and out of the BT he did say he needed to investigate why Grady couldn't get a gateway to open there.

It's a shame Perrin destroyed the Dreamspike instead of getting it to Egwene, I think it was originally designed in the War of Shadows to protect a Fortress during a seige from unwanted Dreadlords opening Gateways into your midst. In fact Im sure I read that somewhere before. The Guardians have the same function, but I'm sure Rand's comment to the Borderlanders meant it fails to stop the True Power.

That's basically how Taim is getting in and out of the BT after Dreamspike is activated he is using the TP.

Naeff who Nynaeve healed of his madness is also on his way to the BT in disguise after Rand told him to try and contact Logain.

Logain I think may be in hiding covertly trying to get proof of what's going on to Rand.

 

Great point about the TP. For me it is evidence that Taim IS Moridin. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

I was really looking forward to this thread, and it did have it's moments. But for me, it, like most of the book, seemed forced and illogical. I'm trying to reserve judgment until we know more, and trying not to let my disappointment that there wasn't more focus here bleed through, but that following stood out for me.

 

Good stuff:

1. Getting to see the 13x13 used. Heartbreaking that Tarna was turned. Glad the Two Rivers lads (so far) and Pevara are OK. I wonder if it can be undone? After all, the Kin and Nynaeve are around.

2. The dreamspike. Very cool. I'd also think Taim is also using some sort of time device (a vacuole, like we saw with Moghedein) to train those turned and make them stronger.

3. Pevara is on the case.

 

 

Unexplained/Cringeworthy:

1. Nynaeave can travel there and back in one night to get Lan's bond from Myrelle, but Egwene (or the other sisters) can't? WTF? Seriously? Makes no sense whatsoever. Egwene gets ticked at Elayne/Nynaeve for avoiding her, but doesn't just bloody send someone (or more than one someone) to Caemlyn to check? And the Salidar sisters just sit there w/out physically going back? Makes no sense to me.

2. Why doesn't Rand deal with this? What did he do the whole time? It said in the books that he had a month AFTER his meeting with Egwene. He went to Tear (a couple days), he went to Maradon (a couple days), he met with the Borderlanders (one day). And in all that time he doesn't check on the BT (despite knowing it is a problem) or find Logain?

 

As for the Logain/Aiel theory, remember that male channelers born w/out the spark would still be available, as they wouldn't manifest signs, and thus never go to kill the Dark One.

[Aagaard]

For me it is evidence that Taim IS Demandred. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

How?

 

We know from the cleansing that he is not - Demandred POV, he doesn't recognize Damer Flinn. Taim would that, since he deposited Flinn with Rand in the first place.

 

We know from RJ that he is not.

 

We also have a POV from a rogue Asha'man claiming to recieve orders from both Demmy and Taim to kill Rand.

[TheAngryDruid]

For me it is evidence that Taim IS Demandred. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

How?

 

We know from the cleansing that he is not - Demandred POV, he doesn't recognize Damer Flinn. Taim would that, since he deposited Flinn with Rand in the first place.

 

We know from RJ that he is not.

 

We also have a POV from a rogue Asha'man claiming to recieve orders from both Demmy and Taim to kill Rand.

 

Oops, I mistyped. No sleep from reading the book! Tain = Moridin. I fixed my post.

 

He's using the TP to get in through the dreamspike, plus access to apparently all sort of cool stuff that even Graendal (who was using the TP) didn't have access to (the vacuole).

 

We know he's got access to Moridin's stash (which even Graendal didn't have until this book), and can probably also use the TP. Pretty rare air. More access to cool stuff and the TP than Graendal? i think only one fits the bill.

[Sharaman]

For me it is evidence that Taim IS Demandred. Pretty conclusive evidence.

 

How?

 

We know from the cleansing that he is not - Demandred POV, he doesn't recognize Damer Flinn. Taim would that, since he deposited Flinn with Rand in the first place.

 

We know from RJ that he is not.

 

We also have a POV from a rogue Asha'man claiming to recieve orders from both Demmy and Taim to kill Rand.

 

Oops, I mistyped. No sleep from reading the book! Tain = Moridin. I fixed my post.

 

He's using the TP to get in through the dreamspike, plus access to apparently all sort of cool stuff that even Graendal (who was using the TP) didn't have access to (the vacuole).

 

We know he's got access to Moridin's stash (which even Graendal didn't have until this book), and can probably also use the TP. Pretty rare air. More access to cool stuff and the TP than Graendal? i think only one fits the bill.

Moridin doesn't need TP to get through the DSpike - re-read the sequence where he gives the other one to G.

He has a "key".

No channeler with a key has a problem with making Gates.

All he has to do is share the key.

[rambling]

The key can be set to control who gets in and out and who can open a gateway at all. The reason they can't open any gateways within the dome (as opposed to gateways to get out of the dome) is because Taim doesn't want anybody wandering into his palace unannounced from within the compound. Presumably the dome is big enough to cover Caemlin? Elayene is busy claiming the Sun Throne, others have gone to the royal tea party, that only leaves Talemanes and the Band...

[Sharaman]

The key can be set to control who gets in and out and who can open a gateway at all. The reason they can't open any gateways within the dome (as opposed to gateways to get out of the dome) is because Taim doesn't want anybody wandering into his palace unannounced from within the compound. Presumably the dome is big enough to cover Caemlin? Elayene is busy claiming the Sun Throne, others have gone to the royal tea party, that only leaves Talemanes and the Band...

No the dome can't cover both BT and Caemlyn - the BT is large and quite a distance from Caemlyn. The other DSpike could only radiate out about 4 leagues - beyond that Grady-Neald could make Gates.

In fact, even a D-Spike placed inside Caemlyn Palace probably wouldn't cover all of Caemlyn town

[MatthewWallace]

I don't have the book in front of me but IIRC he think about how some (implying more than one) are matureing too fast and then thinks specifically about that one example by name.

 

Ditto on the comments about the key. Its possible that the key is only used for activating and deactivating the DS but that is highly unlikely. What good is blocking people out of your fortress if it also blockades you into it.

 

As for Nyn, Myrelle is with the group on the outside of the BT walls, if Nyn did the travel-near-then-ride-rest-of-way thing that most AS seem to do then she could easily have inadvertently avoided the effect.

 

Another note, just because Graendal didn't use certain objects/abilities in front of us doesn't mean she didn't have access to them. be careful what logic you base your arguments on.

 

I think we can definitely say that Taim is one of Moridin's game pieces, being moved to his wishes, but I doubt that he IS Moridin.

[rambling]

The key can be set to control who gets in and out and who can open a gateway at all. The reason they can't open any gateways within the dome (as opposed to gateways to get out of the dome) is because Taim doesn't want anybody wandering into his palace unannounced from within the compound. Presumably the dome is big enough to cover Caemlin? Elayene is busy claiming the Sun Throne, others have gone to the royal tea party, that only leaves Talemanes and the Band...

No the dome can't cover both BT and Caemlyn - the BT is large and quite a distance from Caemlyn. The other DSpike could only radiate out about 4 leagues - beyond that Grady-Neald could make Gates.

In fact, even a D-Spike placed inside Caemlyn Palace probably wouldn't cover all of Caemlyn town

 

1 league = 4 miles, and the spike can be moved so even if they can't cover both BT and Caemlin at the same time, and even assuming the radius can not be made larger I think they could take Caemlin. All they have to do is Travel into the palace.

Oh, and Roedran doesn't seem to be doing much at the moment....

[Goramier]

I have not read any comments under this thread yet, just giving my take.

 

First off, I have thought for a long time now that Taim was being set up as a Dreadlord so when the last battle comes, and we now have dreadlords running around, there is a very powerful one with male channelers that we all know something about rather then pulling obscure or unknown names out.

 

Logain, I am sure is the one who will have to face him. Rand will be fighting the DO, and now I suspect that the last battle will center around Caimlan (sp?). The Black Tower is of course somewhere near there. I think Logain will end up with a motley crue who will in the end have to face the wrath of Taim as a mighty dreadlord. That has been my take for some time now and ToM just reinforced it.

[Sharaman]

I have not read any comments under this thread yet, just giving my take.

 

First off, I have thought for a long time now that Taim was being set up as a Dreadlord so when the last battle comes, and we now have dreadlords running around, there is a very powerful one with male channelers that we all know something about rather then pulling obscure or unknown names out.

 

Logain, I am sure is the one who will have to face him. Rand will be fighting the DO, and now I suspect that the last battle will center around Caimlan (sp?). The Black Tower is of course somewhere near there. I think Logain will end up with a motley crue who will in the end have to face the wrath of Taim as a mighty dreadlord. That has been my take for some time now and ToM just reinforced it.

I have a feeling that the BT timeline we're shown is earlier than the Caemlyn assault. But I need to re-read once.

[Phariah]

Taim must have gotten the dream spike after Grady visits his family and Ny gets Lan's bond. they both traveled there. what i dont understand is why didn't Ny ask Myrella about them not communicating w/ the WT? she totally blanked out on that.

 

 

as to where the heck Logain was.... he is either held my Taim, or he knew something was about to go down and decide it was safer to stay outside of the BT for now till he could do something. maybe stay hidden in the AS camp with Egwenes embasy, and try to gain their aid?

 

i think that the 13 +13 method kills the fades so it isn't a fast method. otherwise they would have mass conversions.

 

i am 50/ 50 with the red vieled aiel being the male channelers that went to the blight and were captured. my other thought ( and this could tie in with Taims followers gaining power fast )is they are corrupt aeil from a mirror world. and Taim is using one with a faster time flow to train his men. he can allow people to use gateways so they leave from his palace to a portal stone cross over train come back after whatever time. seems possible since the shadow is using mirror world as a staging ground. could Moridan be using trollocs from other mirror world in this one also?

[rambling]

I have a feeling that the BT timeline we're shown is earlier than the Caemlyn assault. But I need to re-read once.

 

I'm sure you're right, but it seems pretty vague so I'm speculating